.38-200, Super Police data needed


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baranjhn
May 4, 2006, 05:15 PM
Hello,

I'm trying to locate data for the old .38 S&W with a 200 gr LRN @620 FPS. This was called the .38-200, .380-200, or .38 Super Police.

I have data for the .38 Special 200gr., but needed data for this round too. All my manuals only list data for the 146 gr. bullet. I want to try it in my S&W 32.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks

John

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Cerberus62
May 5, 2006, 09:16 PM
".38/200 was the British service cartridge adopted in 1922 for .38 calibre pistols and revolvers which replaced the larger .455 and .476 inch handguns.

[edit]
Webley demonstrated a lighter version of their Mk III revolver with modified .38 S&W ammunition with a heavy 200 grain bullet. It received favourable reports from the Army and the revolver was accepted in principle assuming an effective round was provided for it.

As Webley had used .38 S&W for their revolver, and the cartridge length was fixed by the size of the cylinder of the revolver (the same as for the wider .455), Kynoch produced a cartridge with the same dimensions as the S&W but with 2.8 grains (0.18 g) of "Neonite" nitro-cellulose powder and a 200 grain (13.0 g) bullet. This combination gave a velocity of over 570 feet (170 m) per second at 50 yards, although the bullet become unstable after penetrating the target. This was deemed satisfactory and the design for the .38/200 cartridge was accepted into Commonwealth Service as "Cartridge, Pistol, .380" Mk IIz", firing a 180 gr (11.7 g) full metal jacket round—after it was realised that the 200 gr lead round would contravene the Hague Convention, which outlawed the use of unjacketed lead bullets in combat.

The cartridge was finally phased out of Commonwealth Service in 1963, when the Browning Hi-Power was finally issued to most units.

The Cartridge, Pistol, .380" Mk IIz is still produced by the Ordnance Factory Board in India, for use in revolvers of the Indian Army and many African countries.

Revolvers chambered for .38/200 will also fire .38 S&W (AKA .38/145), .38 Police Positive, and .38 Banker's Special cartridges, along with the .380" Mk IIz round."

A quick check of my very old Lyman manual didn't show any 200gr loads, by a cross check with 200gr 38 Special loads using Lyman's 358430 round nose seems to indicate that 38 Special starting loads might be near your max in a 38 S&W. A chronograph to work to the issue velocity would be helpful.

Firehand
May 9, 2006, 02:00 PM
Did some searching a while back on this subject, came up with a load of (I believe; record not available right now)2.4 grains Unique with a 200-grain bullet.

Couldn't find a 200-grain .38, did find a Lyman 190-grain round-nose bullet, so picked up the mold and tried it. I use the bullet unsized as the .380/200(or .38S&W) use a larger diameter bullet than .38 Special, lube it with Lee Liquid Alox. This load shoots very well in my Enfield revolver, and unlike lighter-bullet loads it shoots to point of aim.

This is like any other load; it works well in mine, it may not work well or be safe in yours.

Also, check here: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=196143&highlight=.38+S%26W

Bad Flynch
May 9, 2006, 10:24 PM
Formerly, Remington sold a 200 grain .38 Special load that was marketed as a police round. I am uncertain if it is still available. Since even Lyman did not make a bullet mould for the pistol 200 grain bullet, data for the load is a little scarce.

Phil Sharpe's old loading book has a few loads in it because Remington evidently sold the bullets for reloading at one time. The date on my copy is in the 1950s. You might run into a little difficulty with Phil's loading data because many of his listed powders are no longer available. However, if memory serves, there was a Bullseye load listed, but then where is one to get the bullets nowadays anyway? It is likely that there is data for the .38 Short and Weak, too.

Biggfoot44
May 26, 2006, 04:35 PM
"WARNING : The concepts discussed here probably do not produce high pressures, but no published data is known to exist, and involves speculative load developement"

The powder that jumps to mind is XMP-5744. In strieght wall cases it is generally regarded as being able to replicate full load BLACK powder loads at same or less pressure as black.
The .38 S&W is prolific black powder loaded ctg. Can't imeadately say if the 200 gr had ever been offered factory loaded with black, but the later model Weblys and Enfields were certainly at least as strong as 1870's S&Ws.
If no reliable contemporary data for 200 gr factory black loads can be found, then go ahead and load up some loads with lightly compressed 2F (I know 3F probably "better" choice, but keeping assumptions to most conservitive). Test for vel baseline.
Use same bullets with 5744, and slowly work up to near the black velocity.

It's different, probably hasen't been done before, but 5744 has been well used in larger dia black duplication, and the principles should be the same.
When I ever "get a life" I'll have to try somthing similar (in an even more unbelievable combination, but with similar case capacity in a very strong gun).

Jim Watson
May 26, 2006, 05:27 PM
Ken Waters said 2.0 gr Bullseye and a 200 gr RN gave 610 fps in a Ruger .38 S&W (!) (Actually a .380 Rim for India.) and was comparable to the British .38-200 service load.

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