MNagant 91/30 VS. Savage FP 10


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silverlance
May 4, 2006, 07:42 PM
Ok, here's the story

My shooting buddy has a nicely tricked out savage fp 10 with the swfa super sniper scope and harris bipod.

i have an ancient mn 91/30, rearsenaled, in excellent condition, with rear leaf removed and one of Darrell's (some of you may know who that is) mounts installed for a weaver base.

my goal is to be able to match the savage at 100 yards.

now i know that I am unlikely to be able to match it at any more than that. after all, this is a fifty year old gun. but i want to try to be able to hit as many tennis balls on sticks at 100 yards as the savage. i want this old dog to give that new puppy a run for its money, so to speak.

factors:

additions to gun must not be prohibitively expensive. i am only allowed to spend $150 more on this gun. any more would defeat the whole mn vs. savage thing.

i am allowed two shots for every one from the savage. this is because i am only allowed to use surplus ammo.

so.. folks... Mosin lovers.. what do you think?

silv

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Cosmoline
May 4, 2006, 07:55 PM
Cool contest! Some ideas:

Get an adjuster Huber Concepts trigger or swap a better one off a Finn if you have one.

Use Finnish shims or make your own shims out of sheet brass to raise the barrel up and float it if it's currently getting interference from the stock. You should be able to run a dollar bill up and down under the barrel. Also, make sure the handguard isn't fitting too tightly

Keep your receiver screws nice and tight

Vic303
May 4, 2006, 07:56 PM
I think you could do it. Why can't you use handloads though? Seems you are at a disadvantage on chamber tightness--yours is likely to be long. It would be nice to be able to seat the bullets out a bit further than on surplus.

For 150$, I'd buy a recrown for the barrel, a cheap 3-9x40 scope, and IF you can find one, a Timney Sportsman trigger group to drop in.

At 100yds the lower quality optic won't have much impact so long as the scope does not break under recoil. But a good trigger will help a lot. My Swede shoots a lot better with a Sportsman trigger dropped in.

Cosmoline
May 4, 2006, 08:00 PM
That's a good point--is *HE* only using surplus? If not, then you should be able to use your own loads. Even the cheap 200 grain wolf will often shoot much better than surplus 54R.

silverlance
May 4, 2006, 10:56 PM
we are both using surplus - of course, his is south african .308 while i'm using czech 1970s silver tip
=)

ok, so put some brass shims into the stock in order to float it up so a bill can slide under it... how far should the bill go?

then a scope - what kind of scope? the problem is, i don't know how to drill or tap, so i had to use a rear leaf mount - so the scope will have to be long enough so i can see it from way back there.

recrown the barrel? as in the muzzle lands?

trigger job - hm. i'll go on ebay. will finn m39 parts fit a ruskie mn 91/30?

Cosmoline
May 4, 2006, 11:09 PM
The dollar doesn't have to have a lot of clearance, just enough to slide back to the receiver area. Check before shimming, as your stock may be OK already. It's just a cheap way to float the barrel. If you have more time you could bed the receiver.

Vic303
May 4, 2006, 11:10 PM
Recrowning the barrel involved a 'smith cutting a short bit of the muzzle off and usually recessing or otherwise 'dressing' the cut end smooth and even. The rates I have seen run under 50$ usually.

If you have to mount the scope fwd of the chamber, you'll want a pistol scope or other LER (long eye relief) scope. A cheap alternative is a red dot scope which should do you for 100yds ok. Just be sure to get one with a smallish dot, 2MOA if possible. I've had one on my Swede before in the same fwd position and it works ok.

White Horseradish
May 5, 2006, 03:12 AM
See if you can find any Yugo M30 ball. It works great in my Mosins and it may be helpful to yours.

Check the recoil lug (where the front receiver screw goes in) contact with the recoil bolt. It should be even right to left. If not, you might want to square up the crossbolt.

Trigger can be improved by careful stoning and polishing, but if you aren't handy that way it might be hard to find a gunsmith willing to do it.

Koobuh
May 5, 2006, 04:19 AM
Have you tried any Yellow-tip heavy ball? That is apparently what mosins were designed to eat back in that time period, though each rifle will have its own tastes. Try out a little of everything until you find one it likes, as with all rifles. Wolf markets a Super Match line of 7.62x54R, which is made by the same LVE plant that manufactures sniper ammo for the Russians apparently. Exceptional stuff, and its price reflects that.

I would:
Shim the receiver with small brass pieces
Delete the upper hand guard while shooting, as it's just getting in the way, and you can always put it back on for looks
Do a trigger job; GENTLY polish up the parts that interact, and do a coke-can shim job as detailed here: http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinnaganttrigger/index.asp
A darrel mount is a good base for a sight. Put a low-powered pistol scope on it and you'll be in business. As you can do most of what I mentioned here for a few bucks, pick up a low to mid range one if you can find it used; a high powered scope is a waste at 100 yards unless you're hunting flies.

Really, your rifle should already be capable of minute-of-tennis-ball at 100 yards if you find the correct ammo for it, barring a worn or damaged barrel. Practice will win the day for you, and you have a price advantage in that regard. :D

All trigger group parts should interchange with all versions of the mosin-nagant rifle. You can find an interchangeability chart online, though it's un-necessary. Basically, any part that moves and fires bullets on the rifles are interchangeable. The barrels, stocks, and attachments are different, as are the sights, but the action and magazine is unchanged from the original M1891 up to the modern Finnish sniper version.
Now I suddenly remember that there are some modifications that have been made to some Finnish trigger parts that might cause it to not work in an M91/30. You can look up info on the modifications done to the M39 version to find out.

cracked butt
May 5, 2006, 07:34 AM
How to put $150 or less into the rifle to get it to shoot like the savage?

1. sell the Mosin
2. use the money from the mosin to put towards a swiss K-31
3. purchase Accumount or St. Marie scope mount
4. spend the remainder on gp-11 ammo.
This setup should shoot as well or nearly as well as an out of the box savage, and you don't have to screw around with the trigger, bedding, or worry about the quality (or condition) of the barrel because the rifles were built right in the first place.

;)

Red Tornado
May 5, 2006, 10:56 AM
Cracked Butt's right, but that would be cheating. Shame on CB, that would be too obvious. For a more subtle form of cheating, get some Wolf Premium ammo and make sure your Mosin likes it. Now dump out the Wolf ammo and wrap it in brown paper and tie it up with string. At the range, pull our your "no name surplus" and fire away.:D

RT

kfranz
May 5, 2006, 11:11 AM
Your M/N is more likely to be 100 years old than it is 50, but age makes no difference. Find ammo the rifle likes, then shoot it until you are positive YOU are not the weak link. After that, look at mods to the rifle.

Cosmoline
May 5, 2006, 03:04 PM
I don't know. I think you could beat the Savage, but your only real hope is if you can escape from the surplus only requirement. You'd need to try out an array of commercial ammo and see what works best, or even better handload with some of the D-166 Finnish bullets.

ball3006
May 5, 2006, 04:15 PM
I have a 1943 Tikka barreled 91/30 that will do minute of angle with Albanian surplus ammo. To outshoot a mega buck rifle really makes your day........leaves the other guy mumbling to himself.......hehehe... What is even more fun is when I take my beat up, alot of surrender practice, MAS 36 and do the same thing............the rifle was 41 bucks delivered.....chris3

silverlance
May 5, 2006, 05:53 PM
MN 91/30 Rearsenaled, excellent condition. Izhevsk round reciever w/ Izhevsk clips. : $89
NcStar 4x32 LER pistol scope, w/ red dot (didn't have a choice on dot or no dot) : $45
Darell Rear sight leaf mount : $68
Sportsman's Guide bench rest rifle mount : $35 (maybe)
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=222366
or
A whole lotta sand bags : $10
coke can shims : $0 (need to figure out where to put them and how to do it though)
Wolf 7.62x54R Gold Line : $20, 2 boxes

should i replace the stock?
how about the trigger? get a finn m39 as someone suggested?
i don't know anybody who can recrown for me.

Cosmoline
May 5, 2006, 06:14 PM
The shims need to be cut to fit the little holes where the receiver joins the screws coming up from the base of the stock. Basically one is a square shape with a hole in the middle for the screw and the other is more rectangular with a rounded base and a screw hole. I don't have any handy at the moment. AH, this fellow has photos of both front and rear shims:

http://www.beastwerks.com/firearms/Finnish/M39/M39.htm

Basically they'd stack them up until the barrel was lifted up off the front part of the stock. They also help you to get a very tight fit, which is quite helpful if you have a pithy Soviet stock. If you have no soft metal shims the hard steel of the receiver can start cutting into the wood as you tighten the screws down.

billcavazos
May 5, 2006, 10:18 PM
My favorite was the guy that said to throw away the MN and replace it with the K31 and stMarie mount. First of all the keeping the contest at 100 yds will help lots. But most important of all in this contest, is the time you will have between shots. No matter what you do to the crappy Moisen Nagant if your time between shots is short you are in huge trouble. Once the MN gets hot its all over. That skinny crappy steel MN barrel will be whipping all over the place. Stall and delay as much as you can between your shots with the MN. After you shoot leave the bolt open till you have to fire again. Get a nice fresh cut 11 degree crown done on your barrel. And if you have the time have the barrel removed and get it cryogenically processed then re-attach. Or find a new replacement barrel and have it processed then attach and blue. Can you use a Finn39 instead? You will not get as much barrel whip.

gp911
May 5, 2006, 10:31 PM
I say shoot it as is, and if you start falling behind just bayonet the center of the target. That Savage can't compete with that! :neener:

This reminds me that I need to to get some more kerosene to clean my late-20's ex-dragoon off, as it still oozes cosmoline from most places...


gp911

rangerruck
May 6, 2006, 02:53 AM
i 'd like to see you do it, but it wont happen.

silverlance
May 6, 2006, 04:42 AM
"the line is cold!"

*detaches bayonet*

"Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[ x 100 yards]aaaaaaaAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!"

STAB STAB STA B B B STAB STAB!!

the problem imho is that i can only get a 4x scope while the savage will get a 10x. perhaps i should buy a cheap 3-9x variable?

btw: thanks cosmo and others for shim information, i'm going to cut up some coke cans and make shims for all my rifles. i'll also try to find a source for some brass... maybe i can cut up some casings and roll them flat? although i'm not quit esure how i'd roll brass..

MilsurpShooter
May 6, 2006, 02:47 PM
Make sure there's no primer in it and run it over on some asphalt with your tire lol

Langenator
May 6, 2006, 03:09 PM
IIRC, there's a 2-7x version of the NcStar LER scope available. I think I've seen them on eBay.

Koobuh
May 6, 2006, 04:34 PM
Unless you have poor eyesight, you'll do just fine at 100 yards with a low-powered scope. Russian snipers during WWII only used a 4-power, and they had a much higher kill rate than the German snipers had with more precision equipment.
In fact, once you've got the rifle zeroed you could probably complete the course of fire you've outlined with a single-power red-dot scope.

Wolf Gold is good ammo, made by Prvi Partisan, but it's not Wolf's supermatch line. It's also not surplus, you dirty dirty cheater. :P

I would not replace the stock, as getting a decent one is difficult and you'll have to fit it, which is time consuming. Both of the ATI stocks I tried for my M44 were terribly warped, and I had to spend a couple days with a dremel fitting the stock to the rifle. I eventually just cut off the forend and trimmed out the rest of the stock around the barrel shank, so it's floating out in space. I plan to do a sort of bedding job later on to get the rifle seated properly, as there's a lot of space in the tang seat and magazine well. There are other synthetic Mosin stocks out there, but you'll have to do some looking, and they're much more expensive than the ATI product.

In other news, today my dad shot a hi-power match with his VZ24/47 Mauser. Took second place (~410/600) in a field of five participants, against three Garands and a Mosin, which was being used for the first time by that shooter. I'm pretty proud of him, and he got his sign-off for CMP.

onikuma
May 7, 2006, 04:23 AM
pbth :P glad to know im in a contest i didnt even know about :P snicker ;)

savage - 4 tennis balls at 100 yards; mosin - 0 tennis balls at 100 yards ;)

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