Are there any musicians that have this problem?


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SodaPop
April 24, 2003, 09:28 PM
I've been putting more time in with my handguns this year than I ever have done before. Lately, I've been going to IDPA matches and speeding up the pace at the range, and I've been doing something consistantly that isn't good.

Background:

I've been playing bass guitar for about 14yrs now. I don't play with a pick, I just use my fingers. I'm in the Geddy Lee, Les Claypool, Steve Harris style of playing.

Problem:

I can pull the trigger on my Beretta 92FS and Colt 1991A1 faster than the gun can cycle. :uhoh: I pull the trigger, then the gun goes bang, then I pull the trigger again and nothing happens. I look at the gun and the hammer is cocked. Then I pull the trigger again and it goes "bang." I've learned that I can't shoot as fast as I want to.

Is this disease called "wanna be rock-star gunitis?"

Maybe I should listen to different music?

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surfinUSA
April 24, 2003, 10:13 PM
Good for you. I've never seen anybody that could pull the trigger faster than the gun could shoot. How accurate are you shooting at that speed?

Preacherman
April 24, 2003, 10:57 PM
Are you trying to defend yourself against marauding Riffs??? :D

Ewok_Guy
April 24, 2003, 11:03 PM
Just chill out on the caffeine, Sodapop. Learn to take it one round at a time. :)

SodaPop
April 24, 2003, 11:06 PM
How accurate are you shooting at that speed?

Well...... I hit with the first round and then nothing happens on the second. If I spend enought time at the range things tend to happen instinctively and I don't focus on the sights as much. I'm not really hitting multiple targets faster, just pulling the trigger faster.

When I do pull the trigger too fast its the equivalent of a jam. I always think the gun jammed and I have to stop and look at it. If I load up 16rds in my Beretta, and practice doing double taps, I've been causing malfuctions about half way threw the mag.

I also had to put a larger grip safety on my 1911. I had the tendency to relax my right had too much and make my hand kind of arch and not push in the grip safety. If you played bass with your fingers and then pick up a 1911 you'll understand what I'm saying.

Are you trying to defend yourself against marauding Riffs???

Like I said before, I'm not actually shooting faster. I'm messing things up on the second tap.:rolleyes:

gbelleh
April 24, 2003, 11:12 PM
I'm a musician, but my instrument doesn't require quite the manual dexterity of the guitar. I'm not sure that I've experienced this problem, but I know that the fastest gun I've ever shot is the H&K P7M8. I can make that gun sound like it's on full auto.

Have you tried rapid fire with a P7?

SodaPop
April 24, 2003, 11:15 PM
double post

how ironic:rolleyes:

SodaPop
April 24, 2003, 11:18 PM
Has anyone ever played "Flight of the bumblebee" on a 1911? Since some guns have a slower rates of fire its more likely to happen with slower cyclical rates.

blades67
April 24, 2003, 11:29 PM
I haven't met anyone that could pull the trigger of their gun faster than the gun could cycle (using a stock gun), but I have met a number of folks that get in a hurry and short-stroke the trigger and believe that they did. It's very easy to do with a DA/SA gun like the Beretta 92. If you're really pulling the trigger faster than the gun can cycle, don't stop at the second trigger pull, just keep going and the gun will fire with the third pull.:scrutiny:

Mal H
April 24, 2003, 11:29 PM
Yeah, a 1911 Chickering, but that's another story.

I'm not surprised you can beat the trigger of almost any automatic. When you get down to it, they really aren't that fast when compared to what a well practiced musician can do.

dev_null
April 24, 2003, 11:32 PM
You obviously need an MP5K! :D

-0-

stretcharmstrong
April 24, 2003, 11:56 PM
Sounds to me like you're nailing the lick, but just need to cut the metronome down a notch. More of an andante than molto allegro. Stop playing around with the needle set at 300 like Charlie Parker and your gig will come together. :D

cratz2
April 25, 2003, 12:20 AM
Yeah, light loads and the heaviest recoil spring that remains reliable and I can shoot pretty fast. If you want fun, try a copmed 38 Super or 9x23 sometime. Like I said, light loads and heavy recoil springs. Do that for a while and get fast with it and I swear, a 230 Gr 45ACP seems like the while slide operates in s l o w m o t i o n.

makdaddy03
April 25, 2003, 03:00 AM
I play the Acoustic guitar and I have no idea what we're talking about.:evil:

Admiral Thrawn
April 25, 2003, 03:10 AM
You probably didn't allow the trigger to reset.

BigG
April 25, 2003, 03:39 AM
Are you releasing the trigger enough for it to reset before your next pull?

SodaPop
April 25, 2003, 05:32 AM
but I have met a number of folks that get in a hurry and short-stroke the trigger and believe that they did

I was waiting for someone to ask that.

I'll admit to doing that before, but I'm not doing that now. I absolutely am not doing that with my Colt. I can hear/feel the slide close AFTER I pull the trigger. My Beretta is about due for a recoil spring change. I am at about 5000rds with it.

What is the rate of fire for a Beretta and 1911?

I should be able to translate that into rate of fire/ beats per minute.

I think bass players, and piano players, may be more inclined to do something like this.

New_comer
April 25, 2003, 05:56 AM
That happened to me, too. A couple of times or so already, particularly when I was beginning to involve myself in the shooting sport... :(

Found out that I didn't release the trigger enough to reset it, which for the USP means about an extra eighth of an inch or so of forward trigger travel, more than I would have preferred, which considerably prolongs my double tap split. I think it also happens if I let the gun flop around too much at recoil, misleading my "trigger muscle's" memory into believing I've let go just enough...

I would like to believe I've trained myself enough not to be prone to such 'operator' error anymore, but I won't be surprised if I get to do it again...

I'd then do what blades said: release and pull again. ;)

Zak Smith
April 25, 2003, 11:41 AM
I think I saw Bob Munden comment on the same problem on American Shooter...

-z

Handy
April 25, 2003, 12:06 PM
Sodapop,

A Beretta 93R cycles at something greater than 1000 rounds per minute. That's close to 17 rounds a second, or 1/17 of a second per cycle.

I can believe that your fingers are moving that fast, but since the Beretta has at least a little muzzle flip, wouldn't that second shot be going a little high, if it did fire? Even if the gun could keep up, I would think you'd be putting bullets in the ceiling.

Ledbetter
April 25, 2003, 12:17 PM
That's the funniest thing I've ever read here. Is it posasible that the Great American Novel was written on a 1911 Remington Rand?

Hemicuda
April 25, 2003, 12:18 PM
I have been playing fretted and fretalee bass all my life (mom is a musician in her spare time)

I have never had this problem, but then again, I don't shoot to "music" either aloud or in my head... I keep the 2 seperate...

I think if I WERE having this problem, I'd just slow down the beat a bit, and ive it another go...

SodaPop
April 25, 2003, 01:06 PM
but since the Beretta has at least a little muzzle flip, wouldn't that second shot be going a little high,

The second round never happens. I might have to video tape myself and then have an instant replay to evaluate it.:)

I'm positive I'm resetting the trigger on the Colt. I'll honestly say.... maybe I'm not resetting the trigger on the Beretta all the time, but I know I've beaten the trigger a couple times. I'm sure the its time to put a new spring in. It should speed up the cycle rate considerable.

Handy
April 25, 2003, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I just meant that it was just as well you couldn't fire, the muzzle was not likely to be on target.

valnar
April 25, 2003, 01:41 PM
I just think its cool somebody still listens to Rush and Maiden. Look what the kids today have to grow up with. :rolleyes:

-Robert

El Tejon
April 25, 2003, 01:43 PM
Soda, sure you aren't just freezing on the trigger?:confused:

triggertime
April 25, 2003, 01:48 PM
When you practice shooting, how many beats per minute are you setting the metronome to? Try setting it to 120bpm and shooting 8th notes instead of 32nd notes. ;)

BevrFevr
April 25, 2003, 02:16 PM
Don't race shooters get those custom triggers with an overtravel adjustment. Those guys can sure shoot fast when they want to. Yeah I think if being able to pull the trigger too fast could really be a problem they would have it and they don't.

Hats off to Les Claypool and all but he don't pull those strings like they shoot. As a bass player I would think you would have more of a problem taking the sensitivity out of your fingers by playing.

Most of the hardcore gutiarists I know have callouses on their fingertips. Sure they have fast fingers but you don't really want them doing brain surgery or anything like that.

Get a more expensive trigger and adjust it. Your problems will go away.

-bevr

Soap
April 25, 2003, 02:30 PM
I've done the same thing as you SodaPop.

Background: I've played guitar for about 8 years. I grew up playing Metallica and hardcore classical like J.S. Bach, Carcassi, Mozart, etc. Then I got into Irish fingerstyle a la Pat Kirtley and Phil Keaggy.

Solution: Pull the trigger with control. Not every song is done with 1/16 notes at 220 bpm. Just learn to control your trigger like you control the output of your notes.

BevrFevr- Yes there are callouses but if you take care of your hands, they're actually not bad at all or very thick. I'm pretty good with extreme fine motor skills even though I play.

SkunkApe
April 25, 2003, 03:51 PM
I'm not sure about handguns, buts its fairly common knowledge among shotgunners that it is possible to fire a pump gun faster than an auotmatic. There was some semi-famous guy who would demonstrate this...but I can't remember his name. He used a certain model pump gun that had the somewhat unique characteristic of firing each time the action was pumped, if the trigger was held down continuously.

I'lll look around a bit.

BevrFevr
April 25, 2003, 06:34 PM
Faster than a benelli? Good Luck!

-bevr

mephisto
April 25, 2003, 07:30 PM
Try a little slap bass style. That should stop it.:evil:

Preacherman
April 25, 2003, 10:28 PM
Sodapop, are the barrels on your weapons ported for recoil control? If so, ask a flautist to play them while you fiddle on the trigger... might make an interesting duet! :D

Byron Quick
April 26, 2003, 12:53 AM
Ed McGivern abandoned automatics because they were too slow for him. Maybe you need to get a revolver.

rage
April 26, 2003, 01:42 AM
I pull the trigger, then the gun goes bang, then I pull the trigger again and nothing happens. I look at the gun and the hammer is cocked. Then I pull the trigger again and it goes "bang." I've learned that I can't shoot as fast as I want to.

I've been a drummer most of my life, mostly jazz-fusion. For 1/32 beats................................................GET A GLOCK!:D

TheMariner
April 26, 2003, 01:33 PM
I've encounter some race guns of teh .22 variety in International Standard Pistol where I could beat the bolt...

Try a new trigger set... or just pull though it...

I would recommend trying to aim alittle bit more... try whole note squeezes... or go to a Double Action only trigger...

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