AR vs. AK vs. Mini-14


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SquirrelNuts
December 24, 2002, 06:22 PM
A board would not be complete without one of these threads. You all know what I mean. Time to start one. Who's first?

-SquirrelNuts

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Schuey2002
December 24, 2002, 06:26 PM
If you can afford it.... Buy all three ! :D

Ian
December 24, 2002, 06:37 PM
None of the above. Buy a Daewoo for your .223. :)

Art Eatman
December 24, 2002, 06:43 PM
Sorta hard to have "vs." when they're three different-purpose critters.

:), Art

762x51
December 24, 2002, 07:09 PM
These threads are nothing but trouble.

As far as a personal favorite though.....I'll go with the AK. It's just so simple and so much fun!

Watchman
December 24, 2002, 07:23 PM
AR...more accurate, infinite number of various parts, interchangable top halfs, calibers and very customizable...

AK...not as prone to fail due to filth, very reliable, solid as a rock, more durable magazines...


Mini 14...cheap alternative to AR, not as accurate, not as cutomizable, expensive magazines but fun to shoot for less money.

I suppose it depends on what you are looking for in a rifle.

CAP
December 24, 2002, 07:28 PM
What Schuey said.
I'm 2/3 of the way there. :D

CAP

DMK
December 24, 2002, 07:57 PM
I'd go with the SKS, but it's not on the list, so I guess I'd vote for AK as the second choice.

I really like the 7.62x39 round. At the range I shoot at there's only a 100 yard max, so the flat shooting of .223 doesn't matter to me. However, I do like cheap ammo, low recoil and big holes.

Blackhawk
December 25, 2002, 02:17 AM
AR.

I'm prejudiced.

MiniZ
December 25, 2002, 02:51 AM
There are pros and cons to all three.

I guess it depends on what you need/want..

Redlg155
December 25, 2002, 02:53 AM
I think the AK would have been perfect had they designed it with a magazine lock system like the AR15 series.

The "tilting lock" magazine of the AK, Mini 14 and FAL series is about the only fault I see with them.

Good Shooting
RED

Hkmp5sd
December 25, 2002, 03:01 AM
Wow, another ALL OF THE ABOVE. :)

Colt M16A1 (A1 and M4 uppers)
Colt AR-15 SP1
Polytech Legend AK-47 (underfolder)
Ruger Mini-14 (stainless, side-folder)

Chaz
December 25, 2002, 09:04 AM
I have the AK and the Mini. I guess I need the AR to compare and end the debate once and for all. At least thats what I'm gonna tell the wife!! :D

Tamara
December 25, 2002, 09:12 AM
Ooh! I know this one!

Um, let's see... "AR's are overpriced jam-o-matics and AKs and Minis couldn't hit a barn from the inside with the door closed." Did I get that right?

Stay tuned for next weeks episode where we'll discuss obscenely overpriced, heavy and hard-to-fieldstrip M1As; clunky, awkward FALs; and the G3, with its squirtgun trigger and ergonomics apparently designed for three-armed Arnold Schwarzeneggers...


Lemme know if I left anything out... ;) :D

King
December 25, 2002, 09:44 AM
AR.....accurate, lots of parts and interchangeability, styling, plentiful and cheap ammo

I do plan to add a good AK at some point, especailly since a good one can be found cheap.........

RustyHammer
December 25, 2002, 09:50 AM
AK's are a good place to start because they are pretty inexpensive (as are the mags, ammo, accessories, etc.) and they are a lot of fun.

AR's are great too, but they'll run you a little more.

No experience with the mini-14 ...

Lock and load!

Hkmp5sd
December 25, 2002, 10:33 AM
Lemme know if I left anything out... For some reason, I get this mental picture of Tamara waving a huge red flag while standing in a pasture full of bulls. :)

USMC
December 25, 2002, 03:41 PM
During the Gulf War, the M16 served me well. Those with the AK's died. I will keep my AR15’s.

USMC

:p

Gewehr98
December 25, 2002, 03:47 PM
The Yanquis with the Trapdoors and Krags died.

The Spanish with their Mausers inflicted a terrible drubbing on the Yanquis. So much so that the Yanquis adopted the 1903 Springfield in short order.

And, if memory serves me correctly, the good 'ol boys from MACV-SOG used AK-47's when needed.

I will keep them all. Collect the whole set, before they get outlawed, ala' the People's Republic of **********! ;)

Tamara
December 25, 2002, 03:51 PM
Also, .223 isn't powerful enough, while .308 is too powerful. 7.62x39 and 5.45 are commie rounds, and therefore jokes, while .30-'06 is obsolete and .303 & 8mm Mauser belong in the antiquities department with all the other relics of the Trojan War...

(What? You didn't know Achilles used a SMLE? I'm pretty sure that's in the Iliad someplace...)

Have I hit all the stereotypes yet?

;)

Sodbuster
December 25, 2002, 05:32 PM
Polytech Legend AK-47 (underfolder)
Is the Norinco 84S-1 close enough? Well, it is for me. :) It can't be your only rifle though. Gotta have something in that "too powerful" .308. :) Oh, yeah, buy soon, and buy often.

ArmaLube
December 25, 2002, 07:12 PM
If you evaluate the virtues of these firearms, you will (in my opinion) arrive at the AR15. From the standpoints of configuration flexibility, broad availability of parts, brass availability, ballistic performance, and just about any other considerations you can think of, the AR15 is the clear choice.

To become convinced, I would recommend that you review the wealth of informtion offered at the AR15-related web sites. They pretty well tell the whole story.

Best wishes,
Bob

Weaps
December 25, 2002, 08:49 PM
Well, as my first post on this new forum after coming over from GT and TFL I'll chime in on the Mini and the AK. My first .223 autoloading rifle was (and still is) a 184 series stainless Mini that I bought sometime in 1989. I equipped it with a Choate side folder. I also bought a Norinco AK back when I lived in california and you could buy those things for $300 or so. Both of them were great rifles. I still have the Mini-14 with about 5 or so standard capacity magazines but sadly traded the AK way back for my Colt Series 80 Commander (long story short: bought the Colt, sold it to a family friend because I wanted to buy a "Wondernine"; never got around to buying a new pistol so I traded with the family friend the AK for the Colt.) Today that AK would have been worth quite a bit more than I paid for it. Oh well, I'll probably be getting an SAR some time in the near future. Both the AK and the Mini have been reliable, serviceable rifles with the Mini still serving. It was by my side during the '92 L.A. riots and still sits near me for Homeland Defense.

The AR's have always been like Apple computers: priced out of my range. I paid something like $320 for my Mini back when I bought it. Maybe some day...but first I would like to get an AK clone to round out the 7.62 midrange, and then maybe a .308 in perhaps a FAL for the high range 7.62. Then maybe a Garand to cover the .30-06 (already have an M1917 Remington Enfield) and THEN an AR-15.

Politically Incorrect
December 26, 2002, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Tamara
Stay tuned for next weeks episode where we'll discuss obscenely overpriced, heavy and hard-to-fieldstrip M1As; clunky, awkward FALs; and the G3, with its squirtgun trigger and ergonomics apparently designed for three-armed Arnold Schwarzeneggers...

Same gun time! Same gun channel.

I like my AR, my AK, and the Mini-14 I did own was a nice little rifle.

But I'm keeping the AK because I have quite a few magazines for it, the Mini-14 was traded for a Beretta Elite II (which was then traded for my AR). The AR-15 is leaving to make room (in my wallet) for my M1A.

The AK could find a new home if I find a M1 Carbine for a decent price. And from what I have seen, I'll keep the AK for awhile.

rjk2475
December 26, 2002, 01:45 PM
tamara; please explain MOLON LABE. i'm new. if not too personal, are you the resident scholar of the board. respectfully--this is not a hit---ron

benEzra
December 26, 2002, 01:47 PM
I almost bought a side folder for my mini-14 right before 'Pork-n-Bans' went down in 1994. Didn't, and have been kicking myself ever since.

bE

bad_dad_brad
December 26, 2002, 08:16 PM
AR by far.

Art Eatman
December 27, 2002, 02:04 AM
"Molon Labe" from the Greek; "Come And Take It". Said to the Persians, IIRC, at Thermopylae.

During the Texas Revolution, there was a "Come And Take It" flag at Gonzales at a battle there. They still have an annual celebration about it.

Art

thumbtack
December 27, 2002, 02:08 AM
I have to say AR all the away. I would to own a mini and I plan to get an AK some day, but man I love the AR.

Andrew Wyatt
December 27, 2002, 04:39 PM
Mini-14.

The AR doesn't fit.

the Ak has bad sights, a bad trigger, and none too good magazine changing.

Camshaft
December 27, 2002, 06:11 PM
the mini-14 is garbage IMO. not to mention bill ruger was a closet commie.

in an urban enviorment id take an AR.

in a jungle, woods, or desert type enviroment id take an AK.

having said that, the only one i currently own is an AR, and i like it. since the initial break-in, it has not had one single malfunction. but i can say the same for any ak ive owned.

MutantCO
June 13, 2005, 07:45 PM
Nobody said a thing about, Belt feed ?
Some time ago. Norenco came out with a AK.
Style Mag. well SKS. 5,10,20,30,40,55,Rd. box.
75-100 Rd. drum. with a little knife work to wood.
at well feed.
$125.00 N.I.B. $9.50. S&H. "O" !!! For the old day's!!!!!
My freind's nicked named it "Chinese Weed Eater".
7Rd. Burst after 3-4 Thou. Rd's. 11-20+ After 7-10 Thou. Rd's.
NOOO!!! Mod's To Tgr. Groupe.
I miss them! Montycarlo-Thumbhole stock. Option!
Where is"george O." When you need him?!!!!
Muntant. :cuss:

Eightball
June 13, 2005, 08:00 PM
If it boils down to it, I'd take an AK (already got one! :D well, sorta). Cheap and easy, good cheap ammo, and there's somewhere in the neighborhood of double-digit (triple-digit) millions of them being used across the planet, IIRC. That says something. They look sweet, and are the object of hatred by the anti-gun lobby everywhere. All around goodness :D ! Also, you can (depending on how you bargain) get about 2 of them for the price of 1 "passable" AR. Just my opinion, flame on.

MiniZ
June 13, 2005, 09:56 PM
Holy Cow! Talk about bringing back an old thread. I didn't recall being subscribed to this thread, but I got an email advising me there was a new post. The last post previous to today's was in Dec. 2002!

Harry Paget Flashman
June 13, 2005, 10:08 PM
Started with a Mini-14...gave it to my son-in-law(a dowry thing). Bought another Mini-14, stainless this time. Bought a bunch of cheap mags over the internet that didn't fit well or lock in place in the mag well. Sold it before I ever shot it to buy a KelTec SU-16B, which jammed with a steel Wolf casing "glued" fast in the breech. Unjammed it and sold it LNIB with only 17 rounds through it to buy a Bushmaster Carbon 15 M4. It's a keeper.

Through it all my WASR-10 has run flawlessly. For form I vote AR, for function I vote AK, for gifts/trade-ups I vote Mini-14's.

natedog
June 13, 2005, 10:22 PM
AR-15 > AK-47 > Mini-14

Mini-14 < Almost all other intermediate caliber autoloading rifles

Bigfoot
June 13, 2005, 10:40 PM
Just in case you didn't catch any of the other threads just like this one almost every week here's a flashback from 2002. I did scan through it just to see if the posting was the same, nope nothings changed. Well nothing except for Tamara's posts #14 and #20, it looks like the humor was better back then. :D

Andrew Wyatt
June 13, 2005, 11:25 PM
Nate: to be quite honest, you've not had enough trigger time behind any of the three to have much of an opinion.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 14, 2005, 11:07 AM
Well, all three rifles are intermediate caliber self-loading rifles. The big difference is that the AR and AK have about 40+ years of development and research built into them that was financed by two major military superpowers. Add into this the knowledge gained from their military use in countless conflicts on pretty much every continent except Antarctica and you have two very mature weapon systems where most of the problems have been discovered and corrected or acknowledged as an accepted tradeoff for some other benefit.

In contrast, the Mini-14 is a commercial venture produced by an American firearms manufacturer that is a fairly small player on the world stage of firearms manufacturing. It has had a fraction of the research and development spent on it and has practically no history in even brush war level armed conflict.

So it shouldn't be any surprise when you read Pat Rogers commenting that he hasn't seen a Mini-14 survive Gunsite's 5-day rifle course or when you read posters here complaining about accuracy, reliability or durability issues. The Mini-14 has had a fraction of the resources put into its development that the other two rifles have. Doubtless there are good Mini-14s out there just as there are bad ARs and AKs out there; but taken as a whole, I don't think the Mini-14 is in the same class.

natedog
June 14, 2005, 11:19 AM
I can have all the opinion I'd like; experience comes into play when questioning the relevancy of said opinion.

Mr. Roberts, it couldn't have been said better.

LeonCarr
June 14, 2005, 11:27 AM
AK

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Crosshair
June 14, 2005, 12:20 PM
Redlg155

I think the AK would have been perfect had they designed it with a magazine lock system like the AR15 series.

The "tilting lock" magazine of the AK, Mini 14 and FAL series is about the only fault I see with them.

I don't see where this is a major problem. You just have to train and get used to a weapon. Calling the "tilting lock" magazines a fault is like calling a stick shift transmission a "faulty idea" just because you're no good with it. Why don't we make AR mags as good as AK mags, then we can talk about the tilting lock. :neener:

Essex County
June 14, 2005, 12:39 PM
I guess I'm an AR sort of guy. I have an AK, but I keep both clean so the AK's ability to keep going after being dredged up from the LaBrea Tar pits isn't a real issue. Used to be a dealer about 15 miles from the Ruger factory and I bought a number of Minies from Ruger employees and resold them for $ 30.00 profit. I never took one home. Now I want one, and I'm looking for the exceptional deal to come my way. I know it will be on par with my AK I want one anyway....Sincerely Essex County

1911 guy
June 14, 2005, 12:43 PM
"Molon Labe" was said by Leonidas, commander of a small group of Spartans at Thermopylae to Xerxes, who led a much larger force of Persians. The Spartans eventually lost the battle there, but it took much longer than the Persians expected and cost them dearly in men.

As to the original topic of this thread, I'd choose the AR/M-16 for these reasons: sights on the AK are no good, at least for me. Some of the accuracy problems can be attributed to them. Operation is simple, though, and the mag lock can be easily adapted to. The same goes for the Mini-14, the sight vibrates out of adjustment easily. I choose not to use a scope in what should be an infantry rifle, but someone who chooses otherwise can get around this problem.

chopinbloc
June 14, 2005, 12:49 PM
you love throwing gas on a fire, huh?

Clean97GTI
June 14, 2005, 02:42 PM
AK to be sure for the purpose intended. Short-medium range work with a fast moving caliber. An AR just isn't worth the cost. The AK also offers two quality calbers where the AR is most commonly available in only one. Now, you can simply swap the upper, and gain more flexibility.

Mini-14...meh, I'd get an SKS. Its larger, heavier and not as modern and sleek, but at least you have a chance at reliable 30rd magazines. The Ruger mags are reliable, but nigh impossible to get.

I'd leave the AR and Mini on the shelf. For a true Mini alternative, I'd go with Kel-Tec SU-16.

MechAg94
June 14, 2005, 03:18 PM
So, I don't have an AK and don't know much at all about the types or manufacturers. Can someone post or PM me about what and where a good AK could be gotten? I am not cheap, I just hate to spend money on something and then find out there is a better one for $50 more.

I already have an AR, M1, and M1A and like them all. Just figured a good AK to play with would round out the collection.

Too Many Choices!?
June 14, 2005, 04:13 PM
Two combat proven designs vs. a plinker/ranch gun...
Now to the Flame bait :D !

The AR wins hands down and heres why.....(for me atleast)

AR makes nasty wounds at close range with 55gr or 77gr bullets and good velocity, so the AK ,"bigger bullet bigger hole", thing doesn't sway me much.

My AR has sights that work atleast 75% of the time when off-hand shooting out to about 75 yds(3 outa 4 aint bad on apples). My AK clone has sights that like to take a time out every now and then and only relibably work to a distance of 50 yards and will only hit maybe 33% of the time off-hand...

The AR has less recoil, so it follows logic, it has faster follow up shots. AK has more recoil and will be heavier with topped off mags.

The AK has the one plus of ,"digging" through most cover better...My response to that is that in a defensive situation, if I can't see the target, I need to be repositioning(like getting the heck outta dodge :what: or to where I can see the target) not trying to ,"dig" out an enemy. So the one plus the AK has going for it,digging out a B/G under cover, I don't see a major need for!

The AR is supposedly less reliable but when I shot over a half case of Wolf laquered 55gr fmj without cleaning and only got a few ftf(ammo related), I hardly see any need to even call this an issue....

Last, the magazine issues people bring up are red herrings or misdirection,imho. Train more or take better care of your equipment as an AK mag is more solid being steel, but I have yet to bend the feed lips or mag body of any of my AR mags so this is another non-issue for me!

Bottom line AK, AR or Mini, shoot what you shoot best and u don't have to justify it to anyone but yourself :banghead: ,but it is fun sometimes :cool:

Edited to say...I think a closer comparison can be made between the SU16 and the Mini 14 better than military proven fighting carbines:scrutiny/ :neener:

Omaha-BeenGlockin
June 14, 2005, 04:22 PM
Own multiples of all----AK-SKS-AR-Mini------its all good.

They all have their quirks and +'s and -'s----sort of like women :rolleyes:

Correia
June 14, 2005, 04:25 PM
MechAg94, see my sig line. The best AK type rifle for the lowest prices you will ever see.

benEzra
June 15, 2005, 03:08 PM
If you evaluate the virtues of these firearms, you will (in my opinion) arrive at the AR15. From the standpoints of configuration flexibility, broad availability of parts, brass availability, ballistic performance, and just about any other considerations you can think of, the AR15 is the clear choice.
At least if you can afford an AR, which I can't at the moment due to medical bills (my 6 y.o. son will, adjusted for inflation, be the Six Million Dollar Man when he grows up, and has several grand in artificial parts inside already).

If you are on a limited budget, the AK platform is unbeatable. I paid $379 for my SAR-1 and another $100 for a mil-spec QD, illuminated-reticle, waterproof, rangefinding 4x scope that I slap on there occasionally. Magazines were $10 each until recently (20-rounders were $5.99!) and are built like tanks. If price is no object, the AR certainly has its advantages--better inherent accuracy, better ergonomics, wider selection of aftermarket features, and the ability to change caliber/configuration just by changing the upper--but when price is a limiting factor, an AK will give you 90% of the capability of an AR for typically less than half the price.

The AR is supposedly less reliable but when I shot over a half case of Wolf laquered 55gr fmj without cleaning and only got a few ftf(ammo related), I hardly see any need to even call this an issue....
There are degrees of reliability. The AR is reliable, the AK is extremely reliable. I dare say that many people on THR have probably shot more than a case of Wolf lacquered 123-gr FMJ through their AK's with zero malfunctions, since the AK is probably more tolerant of crappy ammo, fouling, hard primers, etc.

Regarding the mini-14--in my opinion, the main area the mini-14 shines is the fact that you can get the fantastic Butler Creek folder for it (I purchased one for mine after the ban sunset in 2004). This is IMHO far and away the best folding stock on the market for any firearm; the only reason I haven't gotten a folder for my AK is that the BC stock on my mini makes all the AK folders I've looked at look like uncomfortable junk. Personally, I think the mini-14 is at its best with a BC folder, a ~16" barrel w/compact flash suppressor, and 20 or 30 round steel magazine (someday I plan to shorten the 18.5" tube on my mini to 16.5"). With the standard stock and 18.5" barrel, the mini doesn't give you any capability that you couldn't get for 1/3 to 1/2 the price with a Saiga, IMO.

Clean97GTI
June 15, 2005, 09:32 PM
So, I don't have an AK and don't know much at all about the types or manufacturers. Can someone post or PM me about what and where a good AK could be gotten? I am not cheap, I just hate to spend money on something and then find out there is a better one for $50 more.


If you can't get in on the VEPR group buy, you can always look at some of the Arsenal Inc. stamped rifles.
I picked up my SLR-105R for $475 a few months back. Stamped reciever and chambered for 5.45x39. I don't think I could have done better at the time. The only improvement would have been a milled receiver, but those cost quite a bit more.
http://www.arsenalinc.com

Ala Dan
June 15, 2005, 09:58 PM
Um folk's, I guess I'd take my .45 caliber SIG P220A~ :uhoh: :D

But, I'm a proud new owner of a Colt AR. :)

czhen
June 15, 2005, 10:45 PM
Dear guys
AR, beatiful from top bottom sometimes relaible some, accuracy is excellen for a BR. However, I am sorry I don't want critize AR rifles (actually I a big fan of them), your statement tell us the sadly truth.....

(over a half case of Wolf laquered 55gr fmj without cleaning and only got a few ftf(ammo related), I hardly see any need to even call this an issue....)

On a battle rifle Its, because it suppose to be highly reliable at any moment not only after cleaning.

Ak are like shooting machine very reliable with awfull accuracy, aesthetic absent.

Mini14: I can make any comments since Idon't know enough to emit an opinnion.

Out of topic FAL:
I do believe that should US were manufactured it today we would have talking how boring is to shoot them intead of how to cleaning the sand.

CZhen
FL
Ps.: Sorruy guys if sound negative.
seems I had a bad day.

Too Many Choices!?
June 16, 2005, 02:36 AM
You quoted me and I don't understand the point you were trying to make :confused: ?

I fired over 600-700 rounds of Wolf ammo(not Brass), laquered(supposed to gum up extraction if you believe internet lore), with only about 3 failures to fire from either hard primers or something like that...

I don't know what you guys consider,"reliable", but for me 650rnds (minimum) with only 3 or so ftf, without cleaning passes muster for me ! If I have to fire 650 rounds of crap ammo(laquered wolf is crap compared to winchester white box) without cleaning my weapon(AR or AK) something is seriously wrong:scrutiny:, but my AR will do it/has done it ! ;)

KriegHund
June 16, 2005, 02:42 AM
Ohh man...

I LOVE my mini 14 rancher.

LOVE it.

Simple as cherry pie and all american. The wood stock is nice but it can be changed with a plastic one. Can hold 5 10 20 30 40 or 90 round magazines. Can have a scope. Is relativly light. Simple safety. Simple dissasembly.

The only thing i dont like, the bare barrel. Heats up fast. It would be nice if they sold a full length wood or plastic stock for it. With better heat protection.

The sites are...meh. Ide rather have notch and post type sights, but thats personal preference. The peephole sights work.


Hmm.. i guess i should add more. Maybe i just got a really good Mini 14, although ive heard theyve really improved them over the years, especially the rancher version i have.

My mini 14 using cheap mags and even cheaper ammo (really crappy wincherster ammo) worked flawlessly.

The spent cartridges get flung a bit far but they go almost straight right which is nice in most situations.

Is it better than the Ar-15 in many aspects? No by far.

Is it the devil people make it out to be? Certainly not.

I should also mention the magazines release.
Takes a little practice, as you move yourhand forward press the release lever forward and then slide forward to press the magazine sitself forward and its released. Simple and fast witha little practice.

javafiend
June 16, 2005, 07:37 PM
Eightball wrote:
Something for the anti-gun lobby--"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -Adolf Hitler, 1935

Myth. Hitler never said or wrote that. http://www.rkba.org/research/rkba.faq

jobu07
June 16, 2005, 09:26 PM
I should also mention the magazines release.
Takes a little practice, as you move yourhand forward press the release lever forward and then slide forward to press the magazine sitself forward and its released. Simple and fast witha little practice.

That got me to thinking. On my AR, the mags don't drop free when the mag release button is hit. And these are some well worn surplus mags. Colt, adventure lines, etc. However, with my Mini, the mags do drop free just as soon as I hit that mag release ;)

agtman
June 16, 2005, 09:44 PM
Here's my 2-cents ...

AK-47: unless it's been "tuned" to the level of a Krebs KTR-03S (rear aperture sight, match-grade barrel), the average AK is an inaccurate piece of commie crapola, with an antiquated 1890s sight system, hard-to-manipulate safety, and other ergonomic features that only a conscripted serf could love. It appears to have been made intentionally awkward to reload, which leads one to wonder if this design feature had some other purpose, such as during wartime food shortages in commie countries. (Authorities could always "thin out" the military ranks a bit by ordering human wave attacks against fortified enemy positions. :scrutiny: )

Is the average AK reliable? Sure, no question, but reliability is only one part of the equation in a serious battlefield rifle.

Mini-14: In my experience, leave it at the ranch or the farm. Decent plinker, but at best it's a fun gun for the range. The mags are a joke. Plus, it's not that accurate, despite the rear aperture sight system. My guess is, under hard battlefield use, a Mini-14 would go t*ts up within 300rds even assuming you had reliable 30rd mags to feed it.

AR: Personally, I'd prefer my .308 M1A, but I'm old school. :D With the AR system there are trade-offs. The AR is inherently very accurate and when compared to an AK, the AR's accuracy may as well be in a different universe. For most AR users, assuming theirs is of reputable manufacture, the AR is acceptably reliable. Not as "reliable" in the strict sense as the AK, but it's reasonable if the user maintains it. Unless or until they redesign the direct impingment system, though, regular maintenance/cleaning is required.

I'm not impressed generally with the terminal ballistics of the 5.56mm, but the newer 70gns+ bullets (e.g., 75-77gns), especially where HPs can be used, appear to be more lethal against 2-legged animals and terrorists than the earlier projectiles (SS109).

MaceWindu
June 17, 2005, 02:02 AM
AR: Personally, I'd prefer my .308 M1A

+1

MaceWindu

AZ Jeff
June 17, 2005, 02:49 PM
mr78 stated: "It takes 5000 rds of practice per year just to maintain real defensive ability with the rifle (from either shoulder)."

That's the first time I have ever heard such a statistic. What's the source?

AZ Jeff
June 17, 2005, 03:04 PM
Now I understand. Quoting that level of practice generally only applies to either "operators" such as SWAT guys, or "serious competitors".

In my heyday as an IPSC shooter, I never managed to find time to put 5K rounds of practice ammo down range. I guess that's why I never saw my name the top of the lists at the Area or National matches......... :D

R.H. Lee
June 17, 2005, 03:11 PM
I've owned a Mini14 (the only one of the three available to me in California), and it's nearly worthless IMO. Substandard caliber in an inaccurate and unreliable platform.

My choice would be the AK (7.62x39). Inexpensive plentiful ammo and a weapon that takes a licking and still keeps ticking.

R.H. Lee
June 17, 2005, 03:23 PM
Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with either the AR or AK, but I'm always hearing AR owners complaining about jamming, etc. Never hear that from AK owners.

Also, didn't we use the 5.56 in the Vietnam war, you know, the one we LOST?

hehe. :neener:

Too Many Choices!?
June 17, 2005, 06:18 PM
Riiiiiiiight :rolleyes: !!! Who do you personally know that has a jammomatic AR, anybody at all? Whose AR have you shot that is a jammomatic :banghead: Don't believe the internet BS about the AR failures....The reason the AR rules the modern battlefield as does the .223/5.56x45 is because it is effective at modern combat distances and quite lethal, not perfect but darn close :neener:!

The only thing the AK has going for it is the fact that it has looser tolerances, which give it crappy accuracy but more reliability..To say anything else about the AK having ANY other advantages over the AR platform(round, lethatlity, accuracy) and you are just kidding yourself :uhoh: !

KriegHund
June 17, 2005, 07:09 PM
Ar's are excellent guns IF you take good care of them.

jobu07-
"That got me to thinking. On my AR, the mags don't drop free when the mag release button is hit. And these are some well worn surplus mags. Colt, adventure lines, etc. However, with my Mini, the mags do drop free just as soon as I hit that mag release "

Hmm, cant deny that.

Ill tell you all what, as soon as i save up 80$ to buy 500 rnds from CTD i will run my mini 14 through all of em in as short a time as my six mags will let me, and ill post the results in a seperate thread.

Heck, i guess ill have to print up some real targets if im gonna do that...

jobu07
June 17, 2005, 07:38 PM
That would be an interesting study to read Krieg. Let us know when you get done.

I love my Mini and my AR. Both are a lot of fun to shoot. Of course the AK is fun too. We just all have to agree that each different rifle has its own advantages and disadvantages. But they'll all get the job done in the end so long as you practice enough to be proficient with them.

5,000 rounds a year might not be out of line. But you certainly dont' need to put that many downrange to be "efficient" with your rifle.

jobu07
June 17, 2005, 07:49 PM
I dont' anticipate WWIII breaking out on the streets anytime soon, so that's why I haven't practiced as much as the military does on firing while moving, night firing, firing from the off shoulder, etc. I don't think i'm going to be out looking for trouble, however, so my casual plinking and informal target practice in my humble back yard range is more than adequate for my needs. I applaud you for practicing to a higher standard.
Now, if for some reason WWIII does break out on the streets of rural upstate New York, I'd like to think I can handle my own. I don't put 5,000 rounds downrange each year. But I do put quite a few down there. I don't buy ammo by the case for nothing ;)

3rdpig
June 17, 2005, 08:32 PM
I used to have 2 Mini-14's, now I have 4 AK's and 2 AR's and no Mini's. the Mini isn't a bad rifle but just not as good as the other two. It's no more accurate than an AK, not as tough, but is reliable until something breaks. It's no where near as accurate or as ergonomic as an AR and good mags are hard to find and expensive. As someone mentioned, the AR and AK have withstood years upon years of testing on the worlds battlefields and have been upgraded until both are as reliable and as mature as a battle rifle can be.

People who suggest that AK's have no problems of any kind, I suggest you look at the troubleshooting forum of any of the AK specific boards, it's full of people having problems with AK's, most of the problems are due to incorrect assembly or mismatched parts, but most of the AR problems are the same thing. A properly assembled AR will, for the first 1000 rounds after cleaning, be as reliable as any AK. After that, yes, it will probably need to be cleaned or at least have some CLP squirted into the bolt carrier and lug area.

To anyone who said that AR's are only reliable just after cleaning, I suggest you look at this video. (dial up warning, this video is 60+ megs!)

AR torture test (www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/videos/GSE%20broadband%20Video.wmv)

TechBrute
June 17, 2005, 09:10 PM
One side note. The jammomatic ARs that you hear about all the time are mostly build-ups by people trying to do things as cheaply as possible. There are people that will skimp $5 off the LPK so they can afford a railed forend, and then wonder why they are getting light strikes. They'll buy a kit from Model 1 Sales so they can buy optics, and then wonder why their AR is out of spec. These people will buy $400 flashlights, and then shoot Olympic and Wolf ammo and complain that they have problems. Old vietnam vets who complain about the ARs of their era haven't picked one up in 30 years. Half the people that whine about them haven't ever shot one, but the word of their buddy's friend's roommate's co-worker's husband's brother's uncle's third cousin (twice removed) is good enough for them. Summary: don't go cheap on the AR build.

ARs continue to evolve. There are superior parts, accessories, ammo, mags, optics, etc for the AR. The AK has pretty much continued on the same course for the last few decades since the demise of the Cold War.

Is the AK a bad rifle? No. It's an old rifle. It is what it is. The M14, AK, 1903, Garand, and many others are STILL great rifles. They are not progressing as the AR design is (minor updates to the M14 of late, excepted.)

And, as Bart said, there is tons of money in the development and proving of the AK and the AR. However, only one of them is still getting that attention.

Forget the Mini14. :barf:

KriegHund
June 17, 2005, 10:30 PM
"That would be an interesting study to read Krieg. Let us know when you get done."

Wont be till sometime next month though, but if anything goes wrong i will gladly concede relevant points.

3rdpig, that was an incredibly impressive video.

Justang
June 18, 2005, 07:35 PM
If you're in California the AR and AK aren't an option. And the Mini-14 is inferior to the Kel-Tec SU16... So if you are California, get the SU-16. If you are in a free state, then get both AR and AK. :D

Farnham
June 19, 2005, 01:04 AM
I don't have an AK (yet) so I won't speak to that one, but I've got a Rock River AR and a Mini-14. The Mini is fun, and it's never malfunctioned on me, but it's also never shot better than 6" groups* (if you can call them groups) at 100 yards.

The AR has only malfunctioned once to the point it was out of the game, when it ripped the case head off of an Olympic SS109*. That may have been (probably was) the ammo. The big difference between the Mini and the AR is accuracy. I've never been able to do the "one ragged hole" we all hear so much about, but even with the short CAR barrel, the AR keeps the groups within about 3 inches (seated position, slung up).

A few years practice in the Marine Corps also got me well acquainted with the AR platform, so I'm biased towards it from that, too.

S/F

Farnham

*one thing about that Olympic ammo, I bought a thousand rounds of it when I got my Mini (living in Cali, couldn't get an AR, since guys with SSBI's, years of service to their country, and no criminal record aren't to be trusted with EBR's) and the Mini shoots it all day long, flinging cases far and wide, and never fails to go bang. The AR though, hates it. FTF, no bang, dirty...guess that says something about the platforms, but I'm too lazy to figure it out.

Waffen
June 19, 2005, 01:40 AM
I told myself I wouldn't get involved.....

I personally own a Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. I love the thing. I have never had problems with it, always goes boom when I pull the trigger. I have over 2000+ varmint kills behind it that should say something. 2-3MOA stock.

I do not own an AR. I have shot many of them and do like them. They are more accurate no doubt than the mini, however I just cannot bring myself to like the looks of them. (Personal preference) I'm old school like that.

AK's are nice as well, I have only shot 2 in my lifetime; I was not impressed very much by them, however that is probably because they were crappy models to begin with. The AK design seems to be continuing after close to 60 years of manufacturing, so that should say something.

Basically you cannot go wrong with any of them. There are a select few, but not many of us ride humvees into Karbala or Baghdad ever day, so what the hell does it matter? These people who keep going on and on about reliability like our lives REALLY depend on it make me sick.

I have said this in other threads and I will say it again, there is almost no chance that you will get killed because you chose an AR over an AK, or and AK over a Mini, or a Mini over an AR. And if you do, chances are you probably bit off more than you could chew.

There are reasons why this is such a hot debate. There are reasons each side feels so strongly. Basically it's all a matter of personal opinion, about like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. These days everybody makes a good car/gun just choose a flavor.

Now for the comedy reply:

Mini-14's are jam-o-matics that can't hit the side of a sky scraper. They also overheat after 1 round.

AR-15's are jam-o-matics that break if within a 5 ft radius of sand/mud/water.

AK's are inaccurate, thrown together pieces of crap.

Clean97GTI
June 19, 2005, 07:09 PM
My expierience with AR's is limited to friends who own them. Both are picky about ammo. One is a Bushmaster M4gery and the other a Colt (not sure what model) that looks like a standard GI issue weapon.
They don't like Wolf, but seem reliable with brass cased stuff.

agtman, you mentioned you'd rather have your M1A as well as the AK being more difficult to reload...don't they use the same kind of magazine catch? It really isn't that hard to unload and reload an AK quickly. You just have to practice.

I'll still stick with my AK pattern. It doesn't care what I feed it, will put the entire magazine into a torso sized target and function as a club on the guy standing behind the poor sap with 30 extra holes.

Try beating someone down with your AR.

rbernie
June 19, 2005, 07:35 PM
They all suck - get an Enfield.... :evil:

Clean97GTI
June 19, 2005, 07:47 PM
They all suck - get an Enfield.... :evil:

wooohooohooo!!! Ahahahahahahaha!!!!

Oh man, you owe me a keyboard...this one is full of Pepsi now.

I needed a good laugh though. Thanks. :D

Larry Ashcraft
June 19, 2005, 07:48 PM
I've owned a Mini14 (the only one of the three available to me in California), and it's nearly worthless IMO. Substandard caliber in an inaccurate and unreliable platform.
I've heard this statement on forums for several years. My Mini-14 didn't listen apparently.

I bought it used, over 20 years ago. It has a Weaver K4 scope mounted. It has Never, EVER failed to fire, with milsurp, factory, my handloads, or gun show reloads (from someone I trust).

This morning I took it out to test some PMI mags bought from a fellow THR member (they worked perfectly, BTW). Shot a few 4" groups at 100 yds (10 shots). Not a tack driver, obviously. THEN, with the barrel hot, I hit a 10" triangular gong at 200 yds five times straight. That is, in my mind, "minute of coyote", acceptable accuracy for a $225 rifle (remember I bought this 20 some years ago).

As for substandard caliber, the coyotes haven't argued with it yet. Nyaah, nyaah, you should have shot me with a .308. :neener:

Too Many Choices!?
June 19, 2005, 08:22 PM
An A2 style stock would make as good of a ,"club", as any other non-folding stock would :banghead: ! But since my ammo is lighter and smaller, I probably won't run out of spare mags at the same time as you would so, club shmub! My answer would be BANG! :D !

Man-O-War
June 19, 2005, 10:21 PM
I cannot vouch for this personally, but the attached picture is something I came across on the errornet day before yesterday. It is supposedly what happened when a bad guy was hit across the chest with an M4. I'm not an AR basher, I have owned a half dozen and currently own 2. I also have a Mini-14 and have owned an AK in the past. I like them all and they each have a place in the world. I just think that as a club the AR is the worst. I don't really want to ever have to use any of them as a club, but the AR would be the last one I would want to use.

Also, a friend of mine was using an M16A1 during bayonet training when he was at West Point back in the 80s and the thing bent right in front of the receiver. He said if you ever have to bayonet anyone with an M16 it may very well be disabled. Again, not my personal experience, just passing along someone else's experience.

Too Many Choices!?
June 19, 2005, 11:17 PM
:evil: :neener:

PS If someone takes a barrel thrust(no bayonett attatched) to the chest/face/groin/wherever, from a H-bar,and he keeps coming( or worse yet bends the barrel:uhoh: ...)something ain't right here :uhoh: !!

Man-O-War
June 20, 2005, 12:23 AM
Well, even the A2 stock is attached with the same kind of tube so I don't think the result will be much different. Like I said, I have owned several so I know how they are constructed. I believe the AR would be the KING of CQB AND SHTF scenarios if it were not for the weakness of the receiver extension and the very thin amount of aluminum on the lower receiver at the top of the front receiver pin. In my mind those are it's weakest points. The AR is excellent in the hands of a trained team of professionals who can cover for each other and/or transition to secondary weapons if the weapon fails (which I admit is unlikely). But for SHTF scenarios, I'd rather have something that I am not going to disable because I fell on it the wrong way or something. I don't have a team of trained professionals to cover me and no armory to issue me another weapon. (Well, it depends on who you ask as to whether or not I have an armory.)

I like the M16 and I don't think the military should abandon it unless they are going to abandon the 5.56 round. I think it is an excellent weapon for a professional military. On the other hand, I think the AK is an excellent weapon for a conscript army or guerilla force because it can take the kind of severe punishment and neglect you could expect from those types.

As for the Mini-14, I think it is an excellent ranch rifle and truck gun. I owned one in the past and I have one currently. It has never had a malfunction of any kind with any ammo, including Wolf. I use only Ruger and PMI mags and they have all worked flawlessly. It is much more ergonomic than an AK. It really sucks in the accuracy department. Mine has the same accuracy as the AK I used to own. It has never been proven on any battlefield I know of, but does that really matter? I will be buying another one in the next year or so because I like them. And maybe a Mini-30 too. Also, if I have to beat somebody with it, I can club them till all the wood falls off and the rifle will still function with no wood. (not well, but all the part still work without the stock on.)

Forgive my long windedness, but I have been thinking alot about this very subject (AR vs AK vs Mini) for several weeks now and I still have not arrived at a conclusion. I guess there is no best answer. If there was, we would have all bought the All-In-One Wonder Rifle and have forgotten all about these three. That said, my SHTF rifle is an M1A. :D

natedog
June 20, 2005, 02:30 AM
I don't really want to ever have to use any of them as a club, but the AR would be the last one I would want to use.

Yeah, well, my Garand makes a pretty poor shovel. What's your point?

Clean97GTI
June 20, 2005, 07:18 PM
Yeah, well, my Garand makes a pretty poor shovel. What's your point?

That should you need to use your rifle as a club...you know, to save your life, you'd be better suited with something other than an AR.

That Garand of yours would make a great choice as it does little else well. :neener:

natedog
June 20, 2005, 07:48 PM
I think it would be much more effective to switch to your pistol and shoot.

But hey, if it ever comes up and I break an AR-15 over someones head and then die because my rifle has been disabled, you can say "I told you so". :)

TechBrute
June 20, 2005, 09:00 PM
People whine when an AR is made from aluminum and then can't be used as a club. They whine when you put a flashlight on it and then it's "too heavy." They whine because it shoots a "small" bullet. They whine when they can't get their hands on 30rd mags (which are only 30 rds due to the "small" bullet.)

Near as I can figure, someone's just got it in for the AR.

KriegHund
June 20, 2005, 09:08 PM
Even the fault finder will find faults in heaven.

rbernie
June 20, 2005, 09:25 PM
They all suck - get a SKS. :evil:

Too Many Choices!?
June 20, 2005, 09:58 PM
1. It has a military background, meaning it is reliable enough to fight with...

and

2. It ain't a Ruger Mini 14 :evil: :neener:

Justang
June 20, 2005, 11:16 PM
AR is more accurate than the AK, so you'd never need to use it as a club... you'd hit the guy the first shot or so. :p

Crosshair
June 21, 2005, 01:33 AM
Justang

AR is more accurate than the AK, so you'd never need to use it as a club... you'd hit the guy the first shot or so.

So what do you do after guy 30, when number 31 shows up early. :eek:

Justang
June 21, 2005, 03:38 AM
For the 31st guy, I'd use a slingshot. :p

Shweboner
June 21, 2005, 12:40 PM
Cant we all just get along?

Too Many Choices!?
June 21, 2005, 01:18 PM
Assuming the first 30 guys went down with one shot (:scrutiny: ), I would, A) take the 2-3 seconds required to reload a fresh 30 rounder and countinue shooting or
B) Take the 1-3 seconds required(on a bad day) that it would take to transition to a sidearm and countinue shooting.... All this is assuming the person must be very very close(but not at arms length yet) or I don't have to rush my reload/transition :banghead: :neener: !!

PS AR-15 mags are not heavy when fully loaded so I can(comfortably)carry more ammo than a person with 7.62X39 :neener:.4 Mags carried 1 loaded and chambered=150 rounds. Divide 150 shots by your 30 people and each can have atleast 5 shots, but since they are dropping with only one, this is a non issue :o ...

KaceCoyote
June 21, 2005, 01:30 PM
I dont see why you have to like the AK OR the AK. Why cant we agree that the AK and the AR are equals? Reliability vs Accuracy. Ergonomics vs strenght. Modularity vs low cost.

The AK and the AR are both outstanding rifles folks, if your "anti" one or the other your really missing out. Perhaps btw, a better comparison would've been..

FAL vs AK vs AR, battle of the black rifles.

Too Many Choices!?
June 21, 2005, 01:36 PM
I thought the FAL was a .308 rifle :confused:, which takes a step beyond the AK, AR, Mini 14 debate :) ... Now the FN FNC I could definitely call that a challenge :evil: ...

If you want the FN FAL comparison you would need to add the M14, the G3, and the .308 Galil to the mix :)

KaceCoyote
June 21, 2005, 01:45 PM
the FAL is cheap enough to compete in my mind. the G3 and CETME are quite similar so lets not go there. If ya wanna quibble about calibers there are AKs in .223 and ARs in 7.62x39mm but we're not comparing either of those. the .308 is not some super special cartridge.

Smallbore American design
MediumBore Soviet design
Big bore European design

fair enough to me.

Too Many Choices!?
June 21, 2005, 02:09 PM
Would you rather take a 700yd shot with an AK/AR(7.62X39 or 5.56X45 take your pick with either gun in either caliber) or a .308 M14 or G3
:rolleyes: !
IMHO, .308 is al little bit too much recoil and too little mag capacity to compete in the close in fighting the other two rifles were designed for ;) ...But that is just my opinion...

PS Who said anything about a Cetme:barf:? And loaded mags with .308 are
heavy, no? :eek: !

KaceCoyote
June 21, 2005, 03:45 PM
I was speaking of the cheaper R1L1 or whatever FAL clones, nothing stamped with DSA or the like. I'm more apt to compare black rifles by price, and then caliber. Now an AR may be better suited for Task A, an AK for Task B and a FAL for task C. However without designating what use the rifle is for specifically I think its more constructive to compare all three rifles.


Sides, I just ordered a PSL for that 700 round shot.

robb969
June 21, 2005, 05:02 PM
Would you rather take a 700yd shot with an AK/AR(7.62X39 or 5.56X45 take your pick with either gun in either caliber) or a .308 M14 or G3

At 700 yards, I'd fade back and never get into it...

Eightball
June 21, 2005, 05:26 PM
For a 700 yard shot, you'd easily have the time to put down your weapon of choice, take up an old milsurp bolt-gun, and test those iron sights' accuracy, wth plenty of buffer room for accuracy :D .

Correia
June 21, 2005, 05:59 PM
In my experience, for every thousand posters on a gunboard who mention taking a 700 yard shot, there are approximately three of them who could actually do it... with any rifle. :)

AZ Jeff
June 21, 2005, 06:15 PM
Correia stated: "In my experience, for every thousand posters on a gunboard who mention taking a 700 yard shot, there are approximately three of them who could actually do it... with any rifle.


AMEN

Too Many Choices!?
June 21, 2005, 06:53 PM
But do my theoretical questions not deserve answers? If you are simply stating the facts that we all know, then point taken. A well placed PIMP slap back to reality,:). Let me restate the question; Supposing you have the skill (:cool: ) to take a 700 yard shot(which I can easily admit that I don't have,maybe 500yds on a man-size target on a perfectly clear day, no wind, ideal conditions,with the ememy standing perfectly still holding a sign that says 500 yds to here, maybe I could make the shot:)), and you have your choice of weapon, which of the four previously named rifles would you choose? Since this is all theory and not reality, I think most people would take the rifle designed to reach out that far :eek: :D !! Just an opinion, your opinion may vary....

Rob969, In real life I would be right behind you :D !!!

Now lets get back to my alternate/internet universe where I have the skill, and the need to take a 700yd shot, plus the choice of weapon with which to take it :cool:. I would personaly take the M14... :D

Crosshair
June 21, 2005, 07:51 PM
Correia
In my experience, for every thousand posters on a gunboard who mention taking a 700 yard shot, there are approximately three of them who could actually do it... with any rifle.

I'm working on that, right now with my 22-250 I can make 350yd shots rather easy. 400~450 most of the time. Still trying to calibrate my scope for those long shots when bullet drop really gets to be a pain. Also I have thermal currents messing up my line of sight past 400 yds. Working for reliable 500 yd hits with my 22-250. Just you wait Correia :neener:

kirkcdl
June 21, 2005, 09:29 PM
MOLON LABE!

Molon labe

(mo-lone lah-veh)

Two little words. With these two words, two concepts were verbalized that have lived for nearly two and a half Millennia. They signify and characterize both the heart of the Warrior, and the indomitable spirit of mankind. From the ancient Greek, they are the reply of the Spartan General-King Leonidas to Xerxes, the Persian Emperor who came with 600,000 of the fiercest fighting troops in the world to conquer and invade little Greece, then the center and birthplace of civilization as we know it. When Xerxes offered to spare the lives of Leonidas, his 300 personal bodyguards and a handful of Thebans and others who volunteered to defend their country, if they would lay down their arms, Leonidas shouted these two words back.
Molon Labe! (mo-lone lah-veh)

They mean, “Come and get them!” They live on today as the most notable quote in military history. And so began the classic example of courage and valor in its dismissal of overwhelming superiority of numbers, wherein the heart and spirit of brave men overcame insuperable odds. Today, there lies a plaque dedicated to these heroes all at the site. It reads: “Go tell the Spartans, travelers passing by, that here, obedient to their laws we lie.”

We have adopted this defiant utterance as a battle cry in our war against oppression because it says so clearly and simply towards those who would take our arms.

It signifies our determination to not strike the first blow, but also to not stand mute and allow our loved ones, and all that we believe in and stand for, to be trampled by men who would deprive us of our God-given – or natural, if you will – rights to suit their own ends.



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Tokugawa
June 23, 2005, 12:31 AM
A daimyo was inspecting a ancient katana made by the famed smith "Kanafusa". His advisor, on hearing the outrageous price the lord had paid for the blade, remarked,"sir, for the price of that sword, you could have secured a hundred spearmen-and a hundred spears will always defeat a single sword, however fine it may be.
Buy ten SKS's and arm your friends and family.

TechBrute
June 23, 2005, 10:33 AM
A daimyo was inspecting a ancient katana made by the famed smith "Kanafusa". His advisor, on hearing the outrageous price the lord had paid for the blade, remarked,"sir, for the price of that sword, you could have secured a hundred spearmen-and a hundred spears will always defeat a single sword, however fine it may be. That's only a logical move for people who can't afford to buy the AR and 10 SKSs, or better yet, 10 ARs.

Correia
June 23, 2005, 10:36 AM
I don't really make friends with people who are unarmed. :) So I'll take the nice guns, thanks.

leathermanwave
April 2, 2008, 06:08 PM
Bump :evil::evil::evil:

My brother is thinking of getting a ak or mini 14 and i did not want to get blamed for not using search.

Cyclimus
April 2, 2008, 06:15 PM
AR is fun, Mini is fun - so why must there be any competition? My Mini is my AR backup.

TechBrute
April 2, 2008, 06:23 PM
What's with all the noobs necroposting lately?

Art Eatman
April 2, 2008, 06:35 PM
leathermanwave, start a new thread, but give some info about your brother's intended uses and priorities.

Art

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