Which 9mm is built specifically for 9mm NATO/European standard pressures?


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bg226
May 6, 2006, 11:32 PM
The 9mm NATO/European pressures are supposedly much hotter and I assume they are +P in our books (SAAMI). The general consensus is that it's not good to give your guns a total diet of +P ammunition. What about those in Europe who use these hotter pressures as their standard?

Which firearms are specifically designed for 9mm NATO/European standard pressures?

Please clarify this. :)

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Lone_Gunman
May 7, 2006, 12:19 AM
Any relatively recent 9mm autopistol by a reputable manufacturer will do fine with 9mm Nato or 9mm from European countries. I have heard that some 9mm is designated for submachine gun use and is not suitable for pistols, but I have never actually seen any of this ammo. I would avoid it, but anything else should be OK.

Beretta, Glock Sig, H&K, S&W and Ruger will all do fine, IMO.

ugaarguy
May 7, 2006, 12:57 AM
From what I've read NATO 115gr 9mm is standard pressure, and is generally the pistol load; while a good bit of the 124gr loads are +P+ designed for subguns. This is simply what I've gleaned from gun forums and gun shops so don't take it as definitive. I have seen Hirtenberger and IMI sub gun ammo advertised and it had the high pressure carbine use only warning. Interestingly I've also been told by a few Luger pistol owners that 9mm NATO pistol/ 9mm Parabellum is loaded cooler than 9mm Luger spec, and that their Lugers cycle better with 9mm Parabellum +P. Basically just go with what Lone_Gunman said.

KaceCoyote
May 7, 2006, 12:57 AM
My CZ was specifically tweaked and is approved for NATO standard pressures. Most of these NATO pistols, the ones that are completely ok with it have NATO markings. Here are the markings on my CZ-P01.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/Kacecoyote/Nato.jpg

The SP-01 has the same actually.


edit:I've been told that NATO loads are much hotter than standard, so...

jungle
May 7, 2006, 01:01 AM
It is largely a myth that NATO spec 9mm is hot loaded. Do a search on chrono results and you will see that most of it falls well within the range of standard pressure loadings in terms of velocity. The NATO spec method of measuring pressure does differ slightly in that they refer to peak pressure and we refer to average pressure in the US.
In the past there have been some lots of very hot subgun ammo made and they aren't recommended for pistols.
Any modern 9mm should handle any recent NATO standard loading without a problem.
Commercial european ammo imported into the US is made to comply with US standards and the european standards. It is almost the same standard, but stated differently.

Kace, The marking on your CZ is a NATO stock number, meaning that type of pistol has been approved for NATO purchase. It differs not one whit from a standard CZ without the marking in it's pressure handling ability.

KaceCoyote
May 7, 2006, 01:33 AM
I'm aware Jungle, but the P01 and the 75 differ in the material of its construction. The P01 is essentially a "jazzed" up compact CZ-75, but there are significant differences. The SP-01 is the same in that respect to the CZ-75, similar but not the same.

I will buy that NATO loads arent hot however, as it doesnt make sense to beat a 9mm apart for the sake of a very small edge in velocity(after all is said and done anyway). I tend to be paranoid about pressure ratings as they relate to my firearms in general however.

jungle
May 7, 2006, 02:22 PM
Just to clarify, here are some recent chronograph results found in a search:

WCC M882 Ball 1186 fps average 20 rounds from a G17

Federal M882 Ball 1136 fps from a G17

WW Ranger T 127grn +P+ 1331 fps from a G17


A few notes: M882 Ball is 124 grn ammo, some has been made with 115 grn bullets. Earlier pressure specification for M882 was somewhat higher than current. Testing methodology not stated for chrono results. Glocks do tend to run faster for a given barrel length.
SAAMI does not recommend 9mm NATO in pistols marked 9x19, 9mm P, but I suspect this is due to a conservative approach with some past Subgun loads rather than a reflection of current production. In any case any current 9mm pistol employed by the military is perfectly safe with current 9mm NATO. This would include Berreta, Glock, H&K, SIG, CZ, Steyr, FN, and a host of others.

Onmilo
May 7, 2006, 02:38 PM
The H&K USP was originally designed for the .40 S&W and the 9mm pistols are more than capable of handling any 9mm load on the market.
The CZ pistols are known for being built hell for stout and should handle any load without issue.
The Russian MP635 Grach was specifically built for a high pressure Russian 9mm Luger load and will be more than capable of handling any American or European 9mm loading.
The Beretta 92 series was designed to handle high pressure loads though it has been recognized that the locking block must be replaced on a regular schedule in order to allow the pistol to do this without a major breakdown.

ShelbyV8
May 7, 2006, 11:10 PM
The 9mm NATO round has been around a lot longer than most civilian 9mm. It is standard pressure. The +P designation came out to give people conifidence in the 9mm. There is some 9mm submachine gun ammo that is too hot for most pistols.

Caseless
May 8, 2006, 03:32 AM
Like others have said, NATO-spec ammo isn't really +P+ or +P. It's a different way of pressure measurement.
I do know which pistol I trust to a steady diet of +P loads though.
Looking through my handgun manuals, only the HK USP Operators Manual mentions this, "with a patented HK recoil reduction system, the USP is built to take the punishment of the most powerful +P loads." I now totally believe HK's claim after using different makes in competitions.
From first hand experience, I've had a CZ-75 breaking its slide stop and firing pin during the middle of an IDPA game. A Beretta 92 broke its locking block. etc. Somehow all the Internet handgun gospels are true in my case. But the HK USP hasn't had any breakage yet. (Each gun has gone thru 5000+ factory rounds)

RON in PA
May 8, 2006, 04:28 AM
Glock 17s and 19s are NATO standard pistols.

gettyleigh
April 7, 2008, 02:58 PM
ruger states in their mauals that the pc9 and the p85/89 series 9mm autos are rated for nato, +p, and +p+

Harley Quinn
April 7, 2008, 03:44 PM
Nato became the term when Parabellium was no longer used IMHO.
A special term ment for ammo that was used for countries in a war effort.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_9mm.php

All "9mm luger" (9x19) were designed around the "parabellium" round I would have to think:uhoh:

otomik
April 7, 2008, 04:02 PM
I have heard that some 9mm is designated for submachine gun use and is not suitable for pistols, but I have never actually seen any of this ammo.Hirtenberger of Austria. produced a very powerful 9mm load called L7A1. Austria isn't NATO. I hear Israel also did some similar loads for Uzis, also non-NATO.

NATO load is pretty good, powerful but suitable for either a pistol or subgun. isn't that better than stocking separate supplies for subguns and pistols?

The Bushmaster
April 7, 2008, 04:28 PM
Most European 9mm X 19 autos can handle NATO and so called machine gun 9mm. Probably not that much difference. Think about it...You are in the field and your enemy is bearing down on you and all you have is a defunct machine gun and your 9mm handgun...What?!!? Your going to pass up shooting that machine gun ammunition. Well then I guess you are going to die...:D

My firestar M43 has digested "machine gun" 9mm X 19 amunition...Of course it's all steel and not plastic...:evil:

No firearm likes a steady diet of +P or +P+...It does tend to wear on the firearm...

The Bushmaster
April 7, 2008, 04:30 PM
@#$%^&*!!! Double post and still no delete...:D

otomik
April 7, 2008, 05:09 PM
Think about it...You are in the field and your enemy is bearing down on you and all you have is a defunct machine gun and your 9mm handgun...What?!!? Your going to pass up shooting that machine gun ammunition. Well then I guess you are going to die...:confused: first of all you set up a fairly unlikely scenario. then you suggest a false dichotomy. I'm sure I'd fire the ammo but I would prefer ammo of pressures that enable me to shoot my handgun more than once.

Most European 9mm X 19 autos can handle NATO and so called machine gun 9mm. Probably not that much difference."probably" that's reassuring, just pulling a large assumption out of your ass? :scrutiny:

Ala Dan
April 7, 2008, 05:14 PM
Add the West German SIG-SAUER's P225, P226, and P228 too
the approved list for all types of 9m/m cartridges~! :scrutiny: :cool: ;)

Halo
April 7, 2008, 05:24 PM
Perhaps more telling would be this question: why did American-made 9mm ammo develop this reputation for being milder than European ammo, in the first place? The explanation I've heard claims it was due to concerns about people firing full power ammo in 9mm pistols of questionable quality. Is there any truth to that explanation, and if so what are the pistols in question?

rklessdriver
April 7, 2008, 05:50 PM
I know where the reputation came from.

I have read on numerouse occasions in quite a few gun rags dating back to the early 1980's that back in the late 1940's and 50's US made 9mm was loaded down to prevent Vets from blowing up their war trophys, which very well could have been made under less than perfect manafacturing quality controls. This light ammo in turn would not operate most Lugers 100%.

I have a few Lugers and can attest that using 115gr WWB in them will get a few FTF/FTE in all of them, but it's not really all that bad. It's not like I shoot IPSC or count on them for self defense or anything. I have never crono'd WWB v/s any European 9mm to see the difference but when I shoot the Fiocchi 124gr (advertised as 124gr@1200FPS) ammo those Lugers run 100% and the recoil is quite sharper.

Maybe there is some truth to it, maybe not. Maybe those Lugers of mine are espc hinky on their ammo diet. :)
Will

Halo
April 7, 2008, 06:25 PM
That's what I heard as well, the concern over war trophies of rushed/shoddy manufacture not being able to handle full power ammo.

What's the nominal pressure for 9mm according to SAAMI, and for CIP? It seems that what CIP considers normal pressure 9mm, SAAMI considers to be "high pressure". I'm just wagering a guess here, but it seems very likely to me that any pistol with an European proof mark would happily digest the so-called high pressure 9mm with no problems at all.

Ol` Joe
April 7, 2008, 09:14 PM
From the VV #3 manual for the 9mm Luger;
CIP max pressure piezo = 34075 psi.

From the Speer #13;
SAAMI/ANSI max pressure =35000 psi

Cip measure the pressure at a different point in the chamber then SAAMI but I can`t find referance to the exact points at this time. I seem to remember it though as being a point about midway on the case for SAAMI and just in front of the case mouth for CIP but I may be wrong.

otomik
April 12, 2008, 02:18 AM
Perhaps more telling would be this question: why did American-made 9mm ammo develop this reputation for being milder than European ammo, in the first place? The explanation I've heard claims it was due to concerns about people firing full power ammo in 9mm pistols of questionable quality. Is there any truth to that explanation, and if so what are the pistols in question?

Pistols chambered in 9mm Glisenti. Same exterior dimensions as Parabellum but with lower pressures. Get a bunch of war vets bringing them home along with the surplus market. Lets be honest how many gun shops have you seen Romanian PSL's being advertised as Romanian Dragunovs? So a shopowner says this Glisenti pistol is an Italian Luger. The lines are about the same. It's about the same problem as 9mm Luger and 9mm Makarov except bedevilingly more subtle.

R&J
April 12, 2008, 04:35 AM
Glock 17.

Arguably the best 9 mm combat pistol in the world!

Mine is approaching 11,000 rounds, without one hiccup!

By the bye, +p is okay too!

Glock 19.

All that; but in a handier size!

Everybody needs a G19! :D

--Ray

loop
April 12, 2008, 07:55 AM
Geez,

Once again - all of them. The Plus-P designation came about to prevent people who owned 100-year-old guns from putting hot ammo in them.

If was made in the past 50 years it will handle +P without a problem. If it was made in 1908 I'd be careful what I fed it.

No matter how many +s you put behind it, it is still a 9.

IOW, an inferior caliber.

tblt
April 12, 2008, 09:45 AM
Cz is

sterling7c
July 4, 2009, 09:53 AM
IOW, an inferior caliber.
Compared to what exactly? 9 is an inferior subgun round? Hmmmm.

SCKimberFan
July 4, 2009, 11:10 AM
Oh no. ^^ Another caliber war!!!!

Pizzagunner
July 4, 2009, 04:50 PM
To my knowledge, all western European built pistols produced by members of the CIP are proofed with 30% overpressured rounds and will bear either markings on the frame or the barrel to indicate passage of firing the proof loads. I would have no second thoughts about putting "hot" 9mm ammo through my Beretta PX-4 as long as I know my current recoil spring is up to the task.

Alpacca 45
July 30, 2009, 11:32 AM
Before the Brits REGISTERED pistols were confiscated, there was quite a lot of surplus 9mm military ammo on the market, at least some of this was reckoned to be for SMGs. Almost all of it was corrosive primed.

Pistols which were not good at digesting it were:

Walther P38s; cracked slide rails and battered frame rails.

Berrettas; separated slides

Lahti L35 Bolt blown out of the back (Peter Kekkenon put the problem with SMG ammo down to longer duration of pressure rather than peak pressure, the L35 design assumed no pressure in the case following bolt unlocking)

Luger (Full auto burst then bent toggle, I didn't see it and I suspect that the gun had been messed with, I heard a rumor that its' owner was arrested some months or years later and sent to secure loony bin for firearms offences).

Browning GP35 was reckoned (anecdotally) to be the only gun designed to handle it regularly, though with suitable slide and sufficeint travel before unlocking coupled to decent buffer to stop the slide, I don't see why most closed slide autos shouldn't be able to handle it.

The story i heard about reduced loading of US 9mm was to prevent Glisenti owners blowing their faces off, as the rounds share the same dimensions but the glisenti pistol was designed around a lighter loading.

Dr_2_B
July 31, 2009, 02:18 AM
seems most of the reputable mfgs are good

EOD Guy in VA
July 31, 2009, 10:13 PM
Hk p30
cz 75 p-01

sarduy
August 1, 2009, 01:41 AM
To the OP: any well build pistol will handle nato round just fine.

IOW, an inferior caliber.

Compared to what exactly? 9 is an inferior subgun round? Hmmmm.

i want to know too....

Oh no. ^^ Another caliber war!!!!

i dont think it's a caliber war, but more like a curiosity as to what make it a inferior round.

ParaElite
August 1, 2009, 12:20 PM
I have 50 rounds of 1986 TZZ 9X19mm ammo. The bullets (FMJ) have a black tip. Does anyone know what these are. I was told that these were for sub guns. I was in Ft. Bragg when I got them.

JR47
August 1, 2009, 12:49 PM
CIP standards are slightly different than SAAMI standards due to the methods used to measure them.

While the SAAMI system (psi) reads directly in the chamber, NATO and Europe (CIP) measure the pressure inch in front of the case mouth. This means the bullet will have to move past the transducer port before a reading is obtained. Since the NATO and European system sees a larger volume for the gas due to the bullet movement, ammunition loaded to NATO or European specs will test as over SAAMI pressures in a SAAMI test barrel.

Attempting to compare them without due regards for the differences in parameters will lead to incorrect assumptions.:)

ItsMyGun
February 13, 2011, 11:44 PM
It is largely a myth that NATO spec 9mm is hot loaded. Do a search on chrono results and you will see that most of it falls well within the range of standard pressure loadings in terms of velocity. The NATO spec method of measuring pressure does differ slightly in that they refer to peak pressure and we refer to average pressure in the US.
In the past there have been some lots of very hot subgun ammo made and they aren't recommended for pistols.
Any modern 9mm should handle any recent NATO standard loading without a problem.
Commercial european ammo imported into the US is made to comply with US standards and the european standards. It is almost the same standard, but stated differently.

Kace, The marking on your CZ is a NATO stock number, meaning that type of pistol has been approved for NATO purchase. It differs not one whit from a standard CZ without the marking in it's pressure handling ability.
To Jungle; Thank-you for a very clear answer......
"Any modern 9mm should handle any recent NATO standard loading without a problem."

easyg
February 14, 2011, 01:14 PM
All Ruger 9mm pistols.


This is from Ruger's website under the FAQs section....


What type of ammunition should I use in my Ruger 9mm pistol?

The Ruger 9mm pistols are chambered for the 9x19mm NATO Parabellum (9mm Luger) cartridge, compatible with the U.S. and foreign military or commercial 9x19mm loads manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards, including high-velocity, subsonic, tracer, hollow point, ammunition loaded in aluminum, steel, or brass cartridge cases, +P and +P+ ammunition.'s

Go Ruger!!!

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