Will the surplus M9 flood the market after it's replaced?


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Hugo
May 7, 2006, 12:28 AM
Since the Army and other branches of the US Military (and probably one or two other countries, maybe..) will be trading up from 9mm to .45 ACP soon. How many M9's will be on the surplus market? I might grab one at a good price. I imagine most will be beat up and lots of holster wear so they will probably be $50 to $150. Or maybe they'll just melt them to make the new pistols? Who knows with the Govt.

As for ammo standards, think NATO will wise up and dump the 9mm for the .45? Naah.... Though it would be funny.

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jungle
May 7, 2006, 12:35 AM
The days of the US government selling military weapons as surplus are long gone with the exception of some CMP sales.
Those M9s and millions of other weapons will end up melted, cut up, or otherwise destroyed or given to another country.
Uncle sugar just signed contracts with options for up to 70,000 more M9s, so the 9mm won't be departing the scene anytime soon except perhaps for some specialized units.

ReadyontheRight
May 7, 2006, 12:44 AM
WHERE did you hear or surmise that the M9 is going away?

Seems like quite the waste of my/our money.

R.W.Dale
May 7, 2006, 12:45 AM
Since the Army and other branches of the US Military (and probably one or two other countries, maybe..) will be trading up from 9mm to .45 ACP soon.


Only if your Idea of soon is 15 to 20 years at wich time the M9 will probably be replaced with something like this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1281426.html

http://www.metalstorm.com/index.php?src=

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0306/gallery.metal.storm/gallery.handgun.1.jpg

JohnKSa
May 7, 2006, 02:07 AM
Nope.

They will be destroyed at taxpayer cost.

If we're VERY lucky, some parts may be sold via the CMP or other sources, but I seriously doubt it.

joab
May 7, 2006, 02:28 AM
Doesn'tthe military usually phase weapons out instead of outright replacing them wholesale.

As new equipment is acquired the older pieces are passed down the line to lesser units until all are mustered out.
By the time they are deactivated they are pretty much worn out and barely usable

pete f
May 7, 2006, 03:40 AM
yes you will be able to buy them, after they have spent another lifetime in some third world allies army and then they sell them to us. ... Just likd you can buy "american " M-1's that have spent forty years in greece, or Nigeria, or Korea,

ReadyontheRight
May 7, 2006, 03:46 AM
I guess the answer is to buy them from the same place we can buy surplus 1911s.:rolleyes:

c_yeager
May 7, 2006, 03:46 AM
They will either be melted into slag or handed over to some military dictator for the shooting of prostrate women and children.

DPB
May 7, 2006, 09:50 AM
I wouldn't give you $50 for one. They might be worthwhile as collectors items, but you probably wouldn't be happy with one as a shooter, and in my opinion, they are not a good base to build upon.

Unlike the 1911s, the M-9 is not a gun that ages well or can be rebuilt nearly indefinitely. The gun was designed to go about 15K rounds. Then the locking block will usually break. While there are still at least some (MEUSOC) 1911 slides and frames in use from the USGI purchase years (which ended in 1945/46), you cannot continually rebuild on a Beretta At some relatively low number of rounds (usually inside of 30-40K), the slide and/or frame will generally crack.

Yes, 30-40K rounds is a lot, but not for guns that have been in service for twenty odd years, or involved in multiple prep cycles for combat deployments.

There are competitors out there with high round counts on Berettas, but remember, competitors don't generally shoot military ammo when they shoot factory ammo at all.

Here's Ernest Langdons maintenance program. He says 20K with no parts breakage, I think that's at the outside, and not with a gun that has shot exclusively GI ammo.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457285#continue

Although his dollar figures are not extravagant, the GI M9s generally got NO parts replacement, unless they got a new locking block pounded in with a rubber mallet when the old one broke, as opposed to the fitting that should be involved. That's NO, as in NO spring changes, NO detail strip cleanings, NO new parts. Also, "rebuilding" the top end is a fairly involved process. It has on at least one occasion involved me calling Beretta and saying "Yes, ma'am, I need to order the following parts."

Incidentally, Mr. Langdon now competes with a SIG.

The 92 series is a highly reliable, highly accurate double action pistol, so long as you can keep it properly cleaned and lubricated and have good magazines. Most owners will never have a problem with their guns.

However, the open top design lets too much crap in for real field use, and the durability issues make it unsuitable for high round count applications.

In the military guns, the combination of field use, lack of higher level maintenance, high round counts, and hot ammo, means the guns in the arms rooms right now are pretty much used up.

Jim Watson
May 7, 2006, 09:57 AM
Agree that the US government will not sell its citizens surplus pistols. Doubt it will allow foreign aid guns back into the country, at least not until they are at C&R status. Let's see, 50 years from 1983 = 2033.

By the way, DBP, Ernest Langdon now works for S&W and rumor has it that he his working up the plastic M&P for competition.

DPB
May 7, 2006, 10:19 AM
Mr. Watson, I stand corrected. I had not heard that.

Newton
May 7, 2006, 10:41 AM
Who would want one anyway.

An oversized 9mm that has been used to hammer in tent pegs, pry the lids off sealed containers, and knock on doors during house searches - all ready equipped with 3 "cheapest contractor" aftermarket magazines, a locking block that is 500 rounds short of cracking, and a half pound of Iraqi sand.

Where do I sign :uhoh:

albanian
May 7, 2006, 01:04 PM
"Who would want one anyway.

An oversized 9mm that has been used to hammer in tent pegs, pry the lids off sealed containers, and knock on doors during house searches - all ready equipped with 3 "cheapest contractor" aftermarket magazines, a locking block that is 500 rounds short of cracking, and a half pound of Iraqi sand."

The Beretta is one of the very best full sized 9mms to ever be made. Even as a beater, I would buy another one (or five) if the price was right. You can still get some police trade in Berettas for around $300 so the price would have to be under that to make it worth it. Not that the military is even getting rid of them. Rumors about the M-9's demise have been greatly exagerated.

DPB
May 7, 2006, 01:49 PM
Albanian,

I'm not disputing the quality of the M9, and I don't think that you were disputing my points. The M9 is an impressively intricate piece of engineering. But comparing a police trade in to a used military weapon is somewhat comparing apples to oranges.

Generally, for a PD, the handgun is the primary weapon is treated as such by the organization. It generally has some degree of legitimate armorer support, in many cases manufacturer support, is not fed military ammo, and is generally not carried out in the elements for days on end, in all sorts of environments, including snow, desert, salt water, etc. Also, they are replaced at somewhat decent intervals.

For most military units, pistols aren't even secondary weapons, they are tertiary weapons. Armorer support for military weapons is done by a guy who, by regulation, is not allowed to do more than field strip it, and they are his lowest priority, after everything else in the arms room. Manufacturer support, not by a long shot. Ammo is all hot and has hard primers. And in the 10-20 year service life of these weapons, they are exposed to some extreme conditions.

If a police trade in is worth $300, they would about have to be giving the military guns away for it to be worthwhile.

Onmilo
May 7, 2006, 02:42 PM
Me, I'm waiting for one of them thar surplus Mk 23 SOCOM pistols complete with issue suppressor and lazer aiming module,,,,,,,,

CajunBass
May 7, 2006, 05:37 PM
I'm still looking for disambled Jeeps, packed in cosmoline, in a crate, for $50.00. :neener:

HankB
May 7, 2006, 05:42 PM
Better our government destroy the Berettas at taxpayer expense, rather than sell them to the taxpayers who bought them in the first place. :barf:

This sort of thinking on the part of our public servants won't change unless we get a Republican president with a Republican house and Republican senate, because . . . oh, wait a minute . . . we already have all that.

Never mind. :rolleyes:

albanian
May 7, 2006, 08:45 PM
"This sort of thinking on the part of our public servants won't change unless we get a Republican president with a Republican house and Republican senate, because . . . oh, wait a minute . . . we already have all that."

:D Good one! I used to think that maybe if we got an all Republican government together they would act in our best interest or at least act in the spirit of the party but now I see that was foolish. I now see that both parties are only out for their own best interest and we need a third party to shake things up a bit. The best we can do until then is hope for gridlock so they can't screw us anymore.

Got a little off topic there, sorry. Back to the Beretta.
DPB,
I hear what you are saying and I have to agree. The Berettas seem to show wear much faster than the old 1911s. Everyone I see on the news or on a show about the war looks like pure hell. I wince when I see how ugly they are. I would still rather have an M-9 than a 1911 if only for the increased penetration and higher capacity. From what I have seen, Beretta are among the very best in terms of reliabilty. I have never taken them out to the sandbox but I can't imagine any pistol really doing all that well in sand. The Beretta has got to be better than the 1911 in terms of reliabilty though. I think the military tests proved that beyond question.

I would love to get my hands on a really beat up but still functional M-9 for little money. I would do some torture tests to se just how reliable they can be.

DPB
May 8, 2006, 12:40 AM
It has been fairly well documented that during the 80s pistol trials, none of the candidates could pass the protocols the 1911 had passed, so they changed the protocols. Also, by the time they did the 80s pistol trials, there had been no new 1911s since 1946. So the newest 1911s in the invetory at that point had been in (hard) use for 50 years.

The problem with the Beretta in the field environment comes mainly from the open slide. Basically crud has a straight line shot into the locking mechanism, which is not true of a closed slide pistol. This can be somewhat overcome with a flap holster, but the flap holster also overcomes your ability to get the pistol into action in any acceptable time frame.

For instance, imagine if you held the pistol in a firing grip and someone poured say 1/4 cup of sand over the pistol, and then you shook it off. On a closed slide gun, almost all of the sand would shake off. With the M9, you've just poured sand into the locking block, and onto the slide/barrel bearing surface. The more you shook, the deeper the sand gets.

Incidentally, the open slide is one of the things that, in other conditions, makes the M9 so reliable.

The reason they look the way they do is another shortcoming. The finish wears very quickly. I've not seen one that actually had much rust on it, so maybe the rust resistance is not related to the black finish, but the black wears off much more rapidly than, say, parkerizing.

Rebel_James
May 8, 2006, 01:18 AM
Probably not. They'll be put in 'mothballs' for years and then destroyed.

They COULD be sold through the CMP, that sells M1's and '03's. However, with the anti-gun crowd out there, it probably won't happen.

There's THOUSANDS of M14's in the US Military's arsenal. Those haven't been in use for decades, although some have been brought out of storage and sent to our guys in the middle east.

It would cost about 80 bucks a rifle to make them semi-auto, with no way to make them fully auto again.

Aside from putting Springfield Armory out of business, what do you think the chances are the CMP will ever sell a semi-auto M14??

Onmilo
May 8, 2006, 08:18 AM
This is way off topic for this thread but considering there were some two million servicable M1 garands available when the CMP started selling and there are perhaps one hundred twenty five thousand servicable M14 rifles if that.
The chance of ever seeing M14 rifles available for direct sales is slim to none.
Maybe, just maybe, with BATFE approval, the CMP would be able to sell a very limited number of certified semi auto only rifles through the auction but it would take an act of god to ever see that become a reality.
Don't hold your breath,,,,,

I keep hearing rumors that an M1A type manufacturer may begin to provide replica rifles for sale through the CMP if the supply of M1 rifles ever gets to the point where the numbers available could no longer support the Organization but again, the talk is only hearsay.
Orest Michaels would deny it I'm sure.

Manedwolf
May 8, 2006, 11:19 AM
I doubt the M9 is going away anytime soon. The whole supply chain and every quartermaster depot is probably filled with holsters, magazines, accessories, and parts for them, and there's likely millions of cases of 9mm NATO distributed all over the world as well.

You can't just replace a gun, you need to replace the entire line of parts and support for it, which is very, very, very entrenched. You'd need to guarantee that every soldier who needs one would have ready access to replacement recoil springs, barrels, mags, etc, etc, etc... I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Sure, you can give the special forces the latest and greatest, but most of the armed forces are support personnel who just need "A Pistol". Which is the default that's just there. Which is the M9.

I do, however, expect the ammo to change, perhaps some sort of expanding-point roundnose, or something like the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball, that can be acceptable under current restrictions. Giving them only ball when there might be a suicide bomber running up on them is just not fair.

Stuff like Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ in 9mm is an excellent round. It's just that soldiers can't use it.

gopguy
May 8, 2006, 02:06 PM
The German government has just gifted a bunch of Walther P1 pistols to Afghanistan......I suspect if we do dump the M9 then those Beretta pistols will be given to a friendly but poor regime. With all the anti gun hopilophobes in Washington nothing will go from surplus to the American people like it was 30 years ago,for the foreseeable future.:banghead:

Master Blaster
May 9, 2006, 09:45 AM
Ye after they are crushed and melted down they will be issued again as beer cans, and cheap pocket knives made in China.

IIRC Bush the 1st or Clinton wrote an executive order requiring that any surplus modern military arms be demilled/crushed so as not to flood the streets with guns looking for blood.:rolleyes:

XDKingslayer
May 9, 2006, 10:47 AM
I'm in agreement with the "Why would you want one?" people. If you saw half of the things I did with my M9 you wouldn't want one.

They are horribly inaccurate. At the 7 yard line I actually contemplated taking the rounds out of the magazine and throwing them at the target because I would have scored better. The sights are non-adjustable, they are beat up, but hey, they don't have very many rounds through them...

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