[grampster]

Ok, I have been reading with interest several different threads dealing with America vs Iraq and vs the UN vs everybody else except Great Britain and Togo. It has been an enlightening experience to be sure. Fun even. But after awhile everything just seemed to blur together, I began yawning and and it occured to me that a microcosm of "The Way Things Are In The World" was happening right before my eyes.

That is, it seemed that it was boiling down to everybody enjoying the sounds of their own voices (figuratively) and admiring their own enlightened position. (guilty as charged in my case) In other words, arguing for argument sake and rarely if ever did I see anyone change a position. Always ready with an opinion, never ready to change their own.

My word! A mini UN was occuring before my eyes. Everybody was holding forth, propundiating, expostulating, connundrumizing and some even blowing hard and exchanging mild insults. The humor of the situation began to overwhelm me. Everybody talking but nobody doing a blooming thing. Just like the UN! Just like The League of Nations before it. Just like the negotiations between just about any nation that had an axe to grind about another nation.

Then it occured to me. The world does really belong to the strong! The only difference between whether evil or good was done with that strength was the character and will of the inhabitants and the leadership of that strong entity.

Never before in the history of the world has there been a Constitutional Republic that had stayed true to its origins and had the overall character of the people of the United States of America. Never before have we seen a nation that has done more to spend itself for the benefit of others while also doing for ourselves. We use but we share. We go but we welcome. Show me another nation or another people who have done as we have done. Not done perfectly, but at the same time not without self examination. (witness the threads I pointed out earlier for one example)

We have had leaders come and go; some who radiated the grand character of our people and some who elevated the low. Yet our people, for the most part, remain unchanged in its grounding in The Golden Rule and in the wonder of our nation.

America stands alone in the present and in history. There has never been anything like us before. Never has so much power been concentrated in one place. Yet that power, as we have seen, has rarely been used indiscriminately or without great agonizing. Our best friend are the enemies that we have not only unconditionaly vanquished but then lent a hand. If you disagree with this statement it is your right, but you are not only blind and deaf, but also a fool. It is what has set us apart throughout all history to this day!

Two things and two things only matter. 1. Why do we do what we do? President Bush has articulated that for us simply. "Because it's the right thing to do." In the case of Iraq: WMD? Harboring terrorists? Plotting our destruction? It does not matter. What we did and are doing was and is the right thing to do and our leaders understood that. You have had unfolded in front of you these last weeks the character of the Baathist Party. It was despicable and everybody knew it. The debate over the 12 years before we "did the right thing" was like the debate on these threads (to use an unfair example.) A noisy babble that accomplished nothing while the selfish desires of the babblers were secretly (self) admired and acompished nothing as the same babblers pointed fingers in every direction and exclaimed shame! shame! while taking advantage for themselves. Many say that the Bush Administration did not "answer my questions." What, in the end, was to answer except to say...."It was the right thing to do" and everyone knew it, they just didn't have the courage to say "lets do it now." More talk, no action. That is what separates the best from the mediocre, when you have the will to cash the check you wrote with your mouth with your ***. Even the most left wing amongst us did not disagree with the evil and claim to support our fighters. They just didn't and don't have the courage to do the right thing, ever! Save us from the wafflers.
2. What will America do with the power that the ages have bestowed upon us, the only great Superpower? Does anyone know? I say yes if we use the past as a roadmap for the future. The history books are piled hundreds of feet high with the goodness and mercy that America has offered its enemies and its friends. Stop! Do not point out our warts and peccadillos to diminish the truth of what is evident for anyone with eyes to see. I have said earlier we have had leaders who have been the best of us and those that have been the worst. Overall, by a wide margin, America has stood for good and will continue to do so.
If any of you question the why or the motives, then question them in the light of the good that America has always stood for, sometimes precariously so, but we have never not straightened our course. So then........

If given the choice of Pax Americana and the entire world getting even a cordial taste of what we have had for over 200 years, the world would be a much better place regardless of your race, creed, religion or any other defining description you wish to enumerate. If anyone would disagree that the life we have in America, with all the faults that we have, would not in some fashion make a better place and life for 99% of the rest of world, then whoever would make that judgement must have been a graduate of the public school system or living in a cave. The only ones that should fear us are those whose motives are directed at the subjugation of people, and are afraid of freedom and the implications that go hand in hand with it.

Grampster
:scrutiny:

[Satellite]

http://internet.ggu.edu/university_library/if/definitional_control.html

From the article:

"Together, to date, these instruments of social control have been
remarkably successful in producing, if not enthusiastic believers, at
least general acceptance at home of the US control apparatus and its
procedures for running the world. In justification of this endeavour,
there are continual reminders by the governing class of how blessed
everyone is, at home and abroad, with the present arrangements. The
refrain of America's greatness has echoed throughout the land in the
post-second world war years. One president after another tells Americans
how wonderful they are. Not only at the present time but apparently since
Neanderthal days, the country is without peer. Madeleine Albright has even
described it as " the indispensable nation" (2). How can anyone not
recognise the bliss of living in the US at this time? Yet many do not.
Assertion, apparently, is not enough. More comprehensive methods of
securing popular adherence, never absent in the past, are being refined
and calibrated for the millennium ahead."

[grampster]

Satellite,

Considering your source, more sure than ever! And exactly my point. Intellectualism at its most vaccuous.

[Satellite]

Regardless of the source, the truth contained in the article is obnoxiously apparent. Americans are "stroked" by the government and media in return for their obedience and willingness to be subjugated.

There's no other way to explain the popularity of Bush. People worship him even as he tramples on their liberties. And lets not forget that someone as morally bankrupt as Clinton served two terms.

Aristotle said that most men were born to be slaves. I can't argue that.

[Preacherman]

Grampster, I came to America seven years ago, because the USA appeared to be the best place on earth to re-start a burned-out life after too many years of civil war and violence. I've been repeatedly confirmed in my decision. America is probably the greatest nation on Earth for anyone who is prepared to accept personal responsibility for his own happiness and security, and work hard to achieve these goals. Never mind what the "loony left" has to say - they wouldn't know success if it jumped up and bit them in the fundamental jujube! This is truly a great nation, and Americans in general, in my experience, are amongst the kindest and most open-hearted people one could wish to meet.

It's interesting, too, that the "loony left" are really a small extremity of US society, largely confined to academia and the political world. I doubt very much whether they have more than 10% of the population actually supporting their position, plus a bunch of herd-followers whom they cajole and cozen into supporting their efforts. There are many others who are Liberal (in the best possible way), but not "loony left", and I'm glad to have 'em around.

And, Satellite - consider the author of the article you cited: "HERBERT I S CHILLER * Professor Emeritus of Communication at the University of California, San Diego". A loony left campus, with a professor in one of the notoriously loony faculties of that university system. Sorry, but I can't take him seriously. The alleged "truth" in his article is merely a re-hashing of the loony left's classic position - "World good, USA bad! Hugging bunnies good, shooting bunnies bad! Warm fuzzies good, tough love bad!" and so on, and so on...

[Monkeyleg]

Thanks, Grampster. The other posters can argue ad nauseum about whether GW is good or bad, but nobody can dispute the good that America has tried to do and continues to aspire to.

I often wonder about those who've opposed this war because, for many, it's not an opposition to a war against Hussein (Clinton tried to do it), but a dislike for Bush. That's fine.

But for those who really dislike Bush, imagine this scenario: at every streetcorner in the country, there's a picture of a smiling GW Bush; try to take a drive out into the country, and there's billboards with his picture; every couple of blocks or so, there's a statue of him; when you turn on your TV, there he is; when you turn off your TV, he's there; when your pick up your daily paper, his smiling picture is on the masthead.

Don't like it? Don't complain, or your privates will be sliced off and your family murdered. And the survivors will be forced to pay for the executions.

I wonder how many Bush-haters would be willing to tolerate such an existence?

[grampster]

I find some irony in your choice of personna: Satellite.
Apparently you are not an American (or you are a Hollywood star who so often publicly choke on their silver spoon) so your understanding of us may be driven by what you read in the media (or People Magazine) or from left wing academia. The media you choose to read is also Lefty as well, judging from what you base your comments on.
As a satellite revolves around something, so you do also. As a satellite has little understanding of the mass that controls it, so also go you.
I have the benefit of being a free man of 59 years who has lived the wonder of being able to come and go, believe, read, speak, follow, lead, partake etc in a free society with no fear except for the repercussions of that expression that I bring upon myself. For if I am free to speak, those to whom I speak are free to flame me. I am a son of a factory worker who taught his son that he might go as he wishes, and I have. There has been great gain in my life as a result.
The leaders of our society as I explained in my original maunderings do not always speak for us, even tho they are picked by us. The wonder is that if we picked wrong, we may change them without undue disturbance. The last presidential election was a marvelous example of our constitutional republic working as it should. You might not find that truth in left wing publications, however. That is OK, though. But also when confronted with the obvious we manage to do the right thing, in the end. As I pointed out, history seems to bear this out, if one is willing to explore ALL of history.
The same cannot be said for most of the rest of the world, perhaps even where you live. The freedom that you have is nothing like the freedom I have, which gives me the benefit of a wider view than your own, apparently. That wider view is held by most Americans and the least among us has more freedom to do what he might, than the best among most nations of the world. That is a fact that if one wished to challenge honestly, would be borne out.
The problem with most of the world is that it tries to define us within the narrow parameters that it is used to. We are not encumbered in that way except by choice. That some of us choose to be ignorant and uninvolved or contrary to doing the right thing is the shining sun of the freedom we enjoy.
Please excuse me if I sound patronizing, it is not my intent nor is it my intent to be short or angry. My intent with my original diatribe was to explain that what Americans do are sometimes overcomplicated in the light of an extreme lack of knowledge of the freedom we enjoy and tend to try and export. When that simple fact of our lives is misunderstood by those who have no comprehension of what we enjoy, it is difficult to try and explain without being somewhat short. I sit in the safety of a home overlooking a lake. I am near the middle of the social strata of America. Given the same opportunity I was handed, there are others that I have personal knowledge have become beholden to no one. There are others who have been close to me that are beholden to everyone. That is the beauty of freedom. Having that choice is simple but hard for those to understand who don't have it or wish to grant it to others.

[Satellite]

The article that I posted isn't about condemnation of America, nor is it about praise of the rest of the world. It's simply a hard, critical look at an infrastructure,... an "institution" in America which dictates how Americans define themselves, their society, their government, and how they relate to the rest of the world.

I don't define myself in terms of "left" or "right". I'm a Libertarian. I follow a different philosophy than that which has produced Nixon, Clinton, Bush, oppressive taxes, and gun control. (to name but a tiny number of the problems that the 2 dominant parties have bestowed upon my people)

I understand why you may refer to me as "loony". Some of us in America have reached the point that we can imagine an "alternative social and political reality". Those who lack such imagination view us as "loony".

I'd like to believe that the current structure exists to defend freedoms and personal liberties, but 50 years of watching each successive administration garner more and more power at the expense of the populace has left me with little hope.

Lies, thievery, and deceit keeps the staus quo in power in America. At this point, anyone who doesn't see it just doesn't want to. It's much easier and more comforting to continue to believe in fairy tales,..... the fairy tales which define the world around us,... and in turn passively controls us.

That's definitional control.

[BigG]

I think the saying goes [intellectuals] strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Good post, Grampster! Critical thinking is a skill that is all but absent from the so-called educated today.

[agricola]

I wonder how many Bush-haters would be willing to tolerate such an existence?

well, it didnt go that far but I'r sure the Dixie Chicks could relate to what youre saying.

on the subject of the thread, you are no different in terms of hegemon than we were. it was thought that we were doing things for raising the standard of the world, improving life etc etc. the problem was that, like yourselves, the only people that thought this were the residents of the UK (and even then not all of them).

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium, atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant

[Derek Zeanah]

on the subject of the thread, you are no different in terms of hegemon than we were. it was thought that we were doing things for raising the standard of the world, improving life etc etc. the problem was that, like yourselves, the only people that thought this were the residents of the UK (and even then not all of them).That's probably not a bad way of looking at it.

Many of us here in the U.S. have the attitude that our country can do no wrong -- there's evil in the world, and as always, we've stepped in on the side of Good to protect the world yet again. The moral superiority of our nation and our position in this matter is not questioned -- Bush has framed the conflict as one between good and evil, and gosh-darn-it, we believe him.

Arguments that the US has taken questional moral positions in recent years on gun control, intervention in southeast Asia, the whole Iran-Contra thing, the construction of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein when it looked to be a better idea, support for the Shah in Iran (and brutal dictators worldwide who promised to be loyal to the U.S. -- notice how few complaints there were about Saddam gassing the Kurds when he was still "our boy"), etc are taken as an irrelevent distraction from the important good-evil conflict going on in front of our eyes -- at worst the people bringing these arguments are working to bring down the Most Important And Most Moral Country The World Has Ever Seen.

You or I may say that we feel we've been lied to when the administrationwas looking for justifications for invading Iraq. First it was Osama bin Ladin had ties to Saddam, but that didn't fly. Then it was Saddam was still not in compliance with UN resolutions, then the UN stepped in and wasn't working fast enough. Then it was He Has Weapons Of Mass Destruction And We Know (but can't tell you) Where They Are And The Immediate Threat They Pose And We Must Attack NOW Instead Of Waiting The Six Months That UN Inspections Must Take. Now we ask where the proof of these assertions is, and we're attacked as being Unamerican (though rarely in those terms.)

The Bush administration knows what's Best For Us, and has its reasons for not disclosing more information. We should be giving the Bush administration more trust than we have so far (and more than any administration in history seems to have earned) because Bush is a Moral man, working on a Moral cause, against a world full of Immoral people. (Never mind that most of the people taking this argument in the debate would have been reversed if the man in power had been Clinton, and the foreign policy record of the previous Republican administrations have been, ummm, "mixed."

It gets tiring, but you're up against belief structures rather than opinions. It's hard to argue against a perception of Good vs Evil. You won't even get through with the argument that not since Christ has a single man been 100% "good" in moral terms, and that our current administration may have some skeletons in its closet...

[faustulus]

Show me another nation or another people who have done as we have done.
See Rome

[Apple a Day]

Y'know, I think one thing which bugs the boogers out of most of the rest of the world is that the U.S. has the power to go nuts and run an honest-to-goodness campaign of conquest but we don't. Think of how much territory over the years that American troops have taken and then given back. Compare that to other countries like Japan, Germany, France, England... the former big boys on the block who have run huge-scale grab and hold wars.
I sincerely believe that part of the anti-Americanism comes from fear that we will do what they have attempted in the past- the same thing that Pinky and the Brain do every night: TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!! I don't believe that a lot of the world understands America's "leave me the heck alone while I eat my Big Mac" mentality.
I hear lots of people pointing fingers and sneering that we supported (insert nastyman here) at some point in the past as a proxy rather than conquest... These people are either willfuly ignorant of history or are hoping that the rest of us are. See also: cold war

[George Dickel]

on the subject of the thread, you are no different in terms of hegemon than we were. it was thought that we were doing things for raising the standard of the world, improving life etc etc. the problem was that, like yourselves, the only people that thought this were the residents of the UK (and even then not all of them).

There is quite a bit of difference in the way the UK tried to raise the standard of the world and the way the US is conducting affairs. We don't have colonies like England did with English governors in charge of them. Every country the US has had to fight has been given back to the citizens of that country to run as they saw fit.

well, it didnt go that far but I'r sure the Dixie Chicks could relate to what youre saying.

Why is it wrong for people to boycot and criticize the Dixie Chicks for what they say and stand for when the left does the same thing to conservatives? Oh yeah, only the left have independent thoughts and are correct in their beliefs. The conservatives in the world are the deluded ones. :barf:

[cuchulainn]

I find it interesting that two new members -- Satellite and Lebe -- both:

1) Often unnecessarily put periods in the subject lines of replies, a quirk I've never seen before here or on TFL.

2) Regularly try to tell us how we're duped into liking the USA.

3) Reguarly quote leftist sources and then claim to be libertarians.


Satellite in this thread:
"I don't define myself in terms of "left" or "right". I'm a Libertarian. I follow a different philosophy than that which has produced Nixon, Clinton, Bush...

Satellite in the linked thread:
"If Bush dumps on us, The Libertarians will get my vote from now on."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19513&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

[Oleg Volk]

They use different connections and don't appear to be the same user. Might be the same real-life person but that's for them to tell us.

More on topic, I think that we wrongly put too much trust in the person occupying a particular office, unmindful of the future when some other person occupies the same office.

[Zak Smith]

Suggest the following reading: The Liberty Doctrine By Michael McFaul (http://www.policyreview.org/APR02/mcfaul.html) from Policy Review.

[Zander]

Americans are "stroked" by the government and media in return for their obedience and willingness to be subjugated.Yep...we're all poor, uneducated, propagandized fools. We don't have the IQ to study the readily available history which proves that the United States of America is the greatest country [run by the best document of governance] the world has ever known.

Oh, wait... :cool:

[grampster]

Regarding Oleg's comment about to much trust in whoever may presently occupy an office.

My addendum to that would be I don't think thoughtful people necessarily do what Oleg proposes without comparing the actions of that leader in the context of what is known about a thing. (The Sheeple might) In other words I might tend to trust what the Bush administration might put out there if it squares with what I have been able to read between the lines about a thing over a period of time.
Sometime one might not have any knowledge but an historical perspective shows that in the past that leader has been forthright, or bold, or having the interests of our nation in the forefront. I am not one who has blind trust. I disagree with the Bush administration about some things......such as mergers of large companies being approved when past history tends to show that it is not in the interest of our nation to have that happen, necessarily.

My overall point, in the first place, was that as an American and after seriously scrutinizing the opportunity and life our brand of freedom has provided....I find it hard to believe that anyone in the world would be disatisfied with having that opportunity and the choices that are provided irregardless of the cultural divides.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with America. Many people around the world have a serious misunderstanding of the blessings and choices our form of government provides to two legged upright critters. They tend to believe the maunderings of seriously mentally disturbed people who operate under the guise of journalist or literati or intelligencia.
PS Also wondered about those guys to. Probably not Americans or they go to a University in PR of Kali.

Grampster

[Satellite]

Grampster,

I won't disagree with you that America is a fine country founded on laudable principals, but since the mid 70's the opportunities which exist in the US have been squeezed and funneled to an increasingly small class of citizens. You alluded to Bush's approval of large corporate mergers which are detrimental to the vast majority of Americans. That's undoubtedly accurate, but it's only one element of the overall situation.

In constant 1973 dollars, average income of workers in America has slumped more than 10%, while per-capita productivity has increased a bit less than 30%. Workers in America are producing more and getting paid less for it. To get back to where he or she was in 1973, the average American worker would have to work six additional weeks per year. But from 1980 to present, the Fortune 500 companies have more than doubled their holdings and multiplied executive salaries more than 600 PERCENT!!,.. all while firing more than 4 million workers.

(statistics cited from the article in "The Nation" titled "It's the Global Economy, Stupid",... 7/15/96)

I realize that there's been some economic ebb and flow since '96, but I see nothing which indicates that corporations are taking less. Economists have been warning Americans for years about the falsely inflated bubble which is the American Stock Market. About 2 1/2 years ago, the bubble burst (some would say that the stock market was harvested) and it shows no real sign of rebound.

Many of the jobs which have been lost during this most recent downturn in the US economy will never return. Corporations are taking advantage of the opportunities provided by NAFTA and GATT by relocating their industries out of the country while business is slow and workers are off the payroles.

I hope that I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the working and middle class standard of living is being purposely driven down. There's multitudes of cheap labor in the world, and corporate America, with the aid of the Federal Government, is doing everything that it can to exploit that labor,....

,.. at the expense of the American people,...


,.. as you have realized,...

But pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. All is well in America. Just look at how efficiently our military can fight a war.

[cuchulainn]

but since the mid 70's the opportunities which exist in the US have been squeezed and funneled to an increasingly small class of citizens.

<snip>

There's multitudes of cheap labor in the world, and corporate America, with the aid of the Federal Government, is doing everything that it can to exploit that labor,....


And as a libertarian you support the right of corporations to choose the cheapest labor regardless of where it resides, correct?

As a libertarian you would oppose any laws to stop such practices, correct? Such laws would be trade barriers, correct?

:rolleyes: how odd to hear Nader-esque concerns come from a "libertarian."

[Gordon Fink]

Like all empires that have gone before it (even those that began as democratic republics), Imperial America will eventually slide into tyranny and collapse under its own weight. With the acceleration of historical forces in the Modern Era, this will happen sooner rather than later—probably within the lifetimes of many High Road members, if we take the imperial route now. This is why I resist the call to empire, despite its undeniable seductiveness.

We are nothing special in history. However, every generation believes that it is somehow unique or superior to those preceding it. Again and again, therefore, people repeat the same mistakes—as we Americans are doing now.

~G. Fink

[agricola]

grampster,

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with America. Many people around the world have a serious misunderstanding of the blessings and choices our form of government provides to two legged upright critters. They tend to believe the maunderings of seriously mentally disturbed people who operate under the guise of journalist or literati or intelligencia.

its your opinion because you live there and see it from your own POV. the POV of someone in France might consider the US as represented by the likes of Coke and McDonalds and the ignorant tourists who buy rude monkeys off him under the Eiffel Tower; the person in Jenin, Islamabad or Riyadh might see you as the supporter of the IDF and as the attacker of Iraq and Afganistan, as well as the Great Satan about which he hears every Friday. You might not consider their viewpoints correct - but they both see a different side of your state than you do, and it is not pleasant. Of course you have the likes of the 9/11 hijackers, who were in essence spoiled rich boys who declined to actually assist their brethren in Palestine but preferred the lazy dramatic act of mass murder; but they are the exception to the rule. Most people who hate America do so for a reason, and that reason is almost always clear and justfied.

Its a natural human reaction to form what you "know" about something into a cohesive understanding that fits your moral conceptions of right and wrong, and then reinforce that by selectively listening to events or statements that back that standpoint whatever your actual knowledge of the issue - the posts on the UK here and on TFL are evidence enough of that - and you in the US are as guilty of it as the rest of us.

One other thing you've got to remember is that, for the overwhelming majority of people in the world, the greatest country in the world is not the US. Its their own country and they are as correct in their belief as you are in yours.

cymru am byth

[Drjones]

Grampster:

Nice rant, and I agree with you.

No offense, but its sad that its taken you so long to realize that we are indeed the finest country currently on this planet, and the finest ever to grace it.

That's just a matter of objective fact, as you touched on in your post.

However, I definitely blame the lateness of your epiphany on our liberal/PC society and media, not on you by any means.

Buy and read the book "What's So Great About America" By Dinesh D'Souza. You'll love it.

This topic is basically the premise of his book.

A very interesting observation he makes in the book is how American culture and all the symbols of American life and culture are practically worshipped everywhere in the world.

Witness dying children in third world hospitals sporting jerseys, shirts or hats of American sports teams.

Coca-cola. McDonalds.

All our TV and movies, and the enormous popularity they enjoy overseas. Heck, often a series that is mediocre in the US is often a huge phenomenon in the rest of the world.

Even those who hate us need us, owe us thanks, and probably exist solely because of America; its a good chance their country from which they spout their hatred of America has been saved by us at one time, in one way or another, militarily or economically. (And you can bet your life that pretty much everyone who harbors any sort of hatred or animosity towards America consumes at least dozens of American products.)

D'Souza also touches on how many cultures and countries wish for "Westernization without Americanization."

i.e; they want all of the material wealth and comforts of Western (American) life.

Given the choice, how many people do you honestly think you could find who would choose to live in the sand over living in a condo with heating, air, and plumbing with a tidy car in the garage?

That's about all for now...

[Monkeyleg]

Agricola: "Most people who hate America do so for a reason, and that reason is almost always clear and justfied."

The abused subjects of the _former_ USSR satellite states seem to like our ideas, and support their propogation elsewhere. The expatriates of India, Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, China, Iran, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, VietNam, Cambodia, Cuba, Haiti, Columbia, Argentina, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Japan, Korea, and a bizillion other countries seem to like the US just fine. I speak with these expatriates daily, and their support for the US is stronger than that of those whose families have been here for generations.

How well-accepted are these "foreigners" in the UK? An old Brit friend of mine said that "Paki-bashing" was a popular sport over there. "Paki-bashing," of course, being the sport of a bunch of young males finding a person of Middle Eastern descent, and literally kicking the person down the street, until that person is no longer conscious.

You'll be happy to know that there are many people in our own government who hate the US as much as the people you refer to, and their reasons hold as little water.

In the final analysis, we could give these "America-haters" the keys to Allah's Kingdom of 72 virgins, solid gold Mercedes and 24 hour cable porno movies, or whatever it is that these fanatics want. They'd still hate us.

So, I think it's a good idea to take them out before they take out my wife, my family or my friends.

BTW, thanks for the incredible efforts by the UK troops in this war. I do hope your thoughts and prayers were with them.

[JoshM]

Agricola
on the subject of the thread, you are no different in terms of hegemon than we were. it was thought that we were doing things for raising the standard of the world, improving life etc etc. the problem was that, like yourselves, the only people that thought this were the residents of the UK (and even then not all of them).

There are massive differences between the United States and the UK in regards to "hegemonic practices". Primarily because the U.S. has a strong isolationist bent.
While the U.S. may be the hyper power, as a Commonwealth citizen, it's not the picture of GW Bush that hangs in my local Court house.

Most people who hate America do so for a reason, and that reason is almost always clear and justfied.

Hatred is virtually never "clear and justified". It's normally blind and all-consuming.

[agricola]

monkeyleg,

that "paki-bashing" statement is utter nonsense. you may as well use a smiliar example of the Klan to show that the US is a fundamentally racist state which murders all its non-white citizens.

oh and with regard to your last statement, please dont patronize me.

[fallingblock]

I've certainly met a lot of Brit expats here in Australia who'll vouch for the failure of the U.K.s 'assimilation' of a lot of non-British folks.
What is it that the U.K. is doing so poorly?
Perhaps some mistaken ideas of altruistic internationalism?

Nice job in Iraq, though:D

[Al Norris]

oh and with regard to your last statement, please dont patronize me.
Once in a while people, by their own demeanor, deserve what they get from others. It's all in the presentation!

Having said that, many, if not most of us here, understand and acknowlege the faults of US policy; witness the disputes on just this board over the Iraq War!

The world, as a whole, berated the US for not joining in sooner during WWI and again during WWII. Since then, the US has had a very proactive foreign relations stance. And now the world wishes the US had gone back to sleep. Be damned carefull of what you ask, Agricola, you just may get it.

[Monkeyleg]

Agricola, my point was not to say that racism does not exist in the US. It most certainly does. My point was to suggest that the US is more accomodating to immigrants than are other nations, including the UK, and those who come here do so not because of a hatred for the US that you describe, but for a love of freedom.

A case in point: following the fall of the Soviet Union, Germany was inundated with immigrants from former Eastern Bloc countries. At first they were welcomed, then the German government locked the gates. The US has had similar situations involving Cubans, Haitians, Vietnamese, Irish and other immigrant groups over the last 100-odd years. Our response was quite different.

Also, I wasn't trying to patronize you with my closing remark; I was being genuine. If you wish, I won't say anything nice to you in the future.

[Drjones]

Hatred is virtually never "clear and justified". It's normally blind and all-consuming.

Even when one has learned how liberals are the most disgusting, parasitic forms of filth on the planet?

I actually used to be sorta kinda liberal in some views of mine.

As I've matured, I've become more conservative.

And I have learned how filthy dirty disgusting liberals are and how thoroughly deserving they are of hatred.

Isn't that "clear and justified"?

[tyme]

http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.273/transcript.asp

[grampster]

drjones: I have not come lately to my belief in and love for America, nor my understanding of our unique postion in history. It's just that I was rambling a bit in my original post regarding my thoughts about what I had been reading lately on THR re Iraq etc.

Faustulus: America is nothing like Rome. Rome was an empire that constantly expanded its borders and ruled the lands they conquered with local Roman appointees, directed by Ceasar. America has never done that except in the creation of our 50 states. In that regard if you are saying that present day America is the same as Rome, well I guess there are some minor parallels that might remotely seem to resemble Rome, especially with the Federal Government overstepping it's bounds regarding the way it deals with states and the dispensing of tax dollars and the like.
(a state may not get its federal road tax money unless they enact draconian uneccessary air pollution standards, for example.)

Satellite: Regarding your statistics about our economy. I would agree peripheraly with some of your comments only in the sense that over time the ways of Man ebb and flow. Things change. But it America we have a tendency to put things right after a time. As a matter of fact the middle class in America is larger than at any time in history and the lower or underclass has elevated itself into the middle class and is smaller than ever. Is their corruption? Show me a country where their is none! Methinks you are a tad too idealistic. I am guilty of that from time to time so I am not the pot calling the kettle black in your instance.

Gordon Funk: As for your comment that America is nothing special. My only reply to that would be is that you must have been asleep most of your life, never read a history book, or are a product of the California Public School System, or all of the above.

Monkeyleg: Your comments about immigrants hits the nail truly and squarely on the head! We are a nation of immigrants and they all came here because of what we represent. They took the time to find out and when they did they beat feet to our shores. I don't wonder why and you surely don't either.

I would also like to ask for forgiveness for calling the title of this thread, Pax Americana. I did not mean it in the context of Empire America. It just sounded good and frankly looked good too. America has never had aspirations of Empire, nor do I believe we do now. I just think a lot of people have forgotten what a real leader looks, talks, and acts like. Love him or hate him, GW is a leader.

Thanks to all of your for your thoughtful responses to my maunderings. Keep 'em comin'....Even those of you who I wonder about and probably always will disagree with. I will however ponder what I have read and value dissenting opinion if for no other reason that it reinforces my beliefs.

Grampster
:D :D

[grampster]

drjones: I have not come lately to my belief in and love for America, nor my understanding of our unique postion in history. It's just that I was rambling a bit in my original post regarding my thoughts about what I had been reading lately on THR re Iraq etc.

Faustulus: America is nothing like Rome. Rome was an empire that constantly expanded its borders and ruled the lands they conquered with local Roman appointees, directed by Ceasar. America has never done that except in the creation of our 50 states. In that regard if you are saying that present day America is the same as Rome, well I guess there are some minor parallels that might remotely seem to resemble Rome, especially with the Federal Government overstepping it's bounds regarding the way it deals with states and the dispensing of tax dollars and the like.
(a state may not get its federal road tax money unless they enact draconian uneccessary air pollution standards, for example.)

Satellite: Regarding your statistics about our economy. I would agree peripheraly with some of your comments only in the sense that over time the ways of Man ebb and flow. Things change. But it America we have a tendency to put things right after a time. As a matter of fact the middle class in America is larger than at any time in history and the lower or underclass has elevated itself into the middle class and is smaller than ever. Is their corruption? Show me a country where their is none! Methinks you are a tad too idealistic. I am guilty of that from time to time so I am not the pot calling the kettle black in your instance.

Gordon Funk: As for your comment that America is nothing special. My only reply to that would be is that you must have been asleep most of your life, never read a history book, or are a product of the California Public School System, or all of the above.

Monkeyleg: Your comments about immigrants hits the nail truly and squarely on the head! We are a nation of immigrants and they all came here because of what we represent. They took the time to find out and when they did they beat feet to our shores. I don't wonder why and you surely don't either.

I would also like to ask for forgiveness for calling the title of this thread, Pax Americana. I did not mean it in the context of Empire America. It just sounded good and frankly looked good too. America has never had aspirations of Empire, nor do I believe we do now. I just think a lot of people have forgotten what a real leader looks, talks, and acts like. Love him or hate him, GW is a leader.

Thanks to all of your for your thoughtful responses to my maunderings. Keep 'em comin'....Even those of you who I wonder about and probably always will disagree with. I will however ponder what I have read and value dissenting opinion if for no other reason that it reinforces my beliefs.

Grampster
:D :D

[JoshM]

DrJones

Hate is powerful stuff. Hatred brings alot of baggage with it which only serves to distort and lessen any possiblity of understanding the enemy.

For example, I just don't understand how elements of Indonesian Moslem society can justify their hatred for the United States and its War in Iraq on religious terms. As the Hussein regime seems to use Islam simply as a convenient political rally cry and cover.

Ultimately alot of the "hatred" of Jihadists and their fellow travellers is just sound and fury over their inability too do anything practical.

[fallingblock]

Hatred can provide both a blindfold and a projection for those who surrender to its call.

I just returned from a visit to the South Island (Christchurch) after an absence of eight years. Several family and friends amazed me with their seething hatred of the U.S. action in Iraq and of "W' in particular. When my sister-in-law (a pacifist from way back) asked me if I thought there would be more terrorist attacks on the U.S. as a result of the Iraq action and I replied in the negative, she exclaimed; "I hope there are!".

Even Helen Clark seemed to be surfing a wave of anti-American sentiment...which eventually let her down rather abruptly.

Most of these people are not simply ignorant blissninnies, so from where does this hatred arise, and why from such normally laid-back folks as Kiwis?:confused:

[Vladimir Berkov]

Every country the US has had to fight has been given back to the citizens of that country to run as they saw fit.

Not exactly, you should have said:

"Every country the US has fought has been given back to the citizens we saw as fit to run that country."


A small grammatical difference, but a great one in meaning.

[Leaky Waders]

Hi....I'd just like to reply to the following...

"America is nothing special."

*Who put men on the moon?

*Who invented rock and roll, blue jeans, country and western?

*Who saved Europe from Nazi and Stalin domination...and didn't place puppet governments or empirical governors afterwards?

*Who defeated Japan after being hit w/ a first strike...and left the same emperor in place, replaced the militants, and rebuilt the nation with a growing successful economy?

*Who helped the Brits drive the Argentinians form the Falklands?

*Who is defining the Art of Medicine for the world? Who invests countless dollars to activate potable water in third world countries and vaccinate children?

*Who's citizen's freely give their taxes so that other countries may write off their burdens?

*Who permits every citizen to become educated, get a job, speak their mind without threat of torture or death?

*Where can you voice your opinion against your elected leader and not be targeted by the leader?

*Where can you go to church, tabernacle, or mosque and not be assaulted w/ ideology of blowing yourself up to become part of some holy war, jihad, or other freedom movement?

*Where can you marry persons of same sex or different race, and not be shunned by society as a whole?

*Where can you be a "____ citizen" without even speaking a lick of the native language? For example, someone who speaks fluent chinese, and becomes and American...is now an American regardless of speaking ability, education, intellect, or language.

*Who explores the deep sea w/ submersibles, safely uses nuclear power, provides the majority of air transportation for the world, and has created many of the computer breakthroughs?

*Who defeated the barbary pirates after several Jeffersonian financial gifts to open the mediterranean for safe shipping....without creating a puppet empire?

*Who liberated the philippines...and returned it to their people?

*Who lets territories decide for themselves if they would prefer to join us or not? (Guam and Puerto Rico)

I would say....from my biased point of view as an eagle boy scout and current active duty naval officer that America is not and empire exporting world domination. It is a nation of the people for the people and by the people who have defended themselves during times of crisis and have been benevolent victors. Who have liberties for all citizens and equivalent educational opportunites. Who is active in world, cultural, scientific endeavors when not defending the interests of it's peoples.

For persons who bash America....just answer this....What would the world be like w/o America? A British empire? A Nazi empire? A Stalinist empire?

If America is so bad....then simply leave. If it burdens so many to enjoy the liberties that your fellow citizens have died for...then that's too big a burdon....enjoy your new found liberites in France, Cuba, Germany, Russia, Haiti, Argentina..etc. Relish your new fatherlands economy and goods. Enjoy the acceptance of the people as you can't speak their language or know the intricacies of their table manners. Feel free to shed your red white and blue and become a new "____ citizen," from my travels, I think you'd return home lamenting what you have forfeited.

Thanks for reading,
-L. W.

As for the title of the thread Pax America...latin for Peace of the Americans...we have not been at peace in many years...but as a country we strive to make the world better. Presidents are not elected for their ideologies of evil...the are elected for self-actualization and ideas of bettering tommorrow. None are evil. Our American 'dictator' FDR changed America and the World for the better. I guess he was our Augustus....fortunatley we haven't had a Nero of Caligula.

[JohnBT]

Jazz. Don't forget we invented jazz. And baseball.

The recent immigrants in my immediate area aren't leaving. They might be concerned about family back home, but they like America. These are people I see nearly every day and talk to frequently. The realty guy is from Lebanon, the video store owner came from Egypt, the market owners are from Iran, and the Chinese Restaurant owners are from China.

They all appear to realize that doing the right thing isn't always easy.

John

P.S. - Then there's the college professor across the street with her No War sign. She's in Moscow for 2 weeks, so she doesn't count. I sort of wish she'd stayed in Cuba when she went last year.

P.P.S. - "Most of these people are not simply ignorant blissninnies, so from where does this hatred arise, and why from such normally laid-back folks as Kiwis?"

I certainly don't know, I guess you'll have to ask them. Your sister-in-law, the pseudo-pacifist, appears to be a raging hypocrite if she's wishing violence on others.

[Drjones]

Leaky:

Your post gave me chills.

Thank you for posting that.

Welcome to The High Road, and do stick around!

:)

[Gordon Fink]

For those who called me on America being “nothing special,” if you reread my post, you will see that I wrote that we (the current generations of Americans or of any other people, for that matter) are nothing special in history. I was not referring to American culture specifically, though the idea does hold true. The mighty republics and empires (and some not so mighty) that have gone before the U.S.A. also made great technological, cultural, political, and military accomplishments. The most remarkable thing about the many American achievements is that they have been made by an unusually heterogeneous population.

None of this, however, changes the fact that all empires eventually fall, usually in a messy, unpleasant fashion. An American empire will ultimately suffer this same fate, as the powers that be become ever more tyrannical in order to maintain that power. The only way to avoid this is to remain a republic—one that leads more by example than by force.

Some have mentioned ancient Rome as an example of a failed empire and been derided for the comparison. However, in its latter days, Rome turned the administration and defense of the conquered “barbarians” over to the trusted among the barbarians. Not surprisingly, these same foederati ultimately turned on the Romans. It seems the U.S. has jumped right to this stage, installing puppet regimes in places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Without long-term occupation in these places, America’s native confederates will eventually turn or fall themselves.

~G. Fink

[faustulus]

1. I love America
2. America isn't perfect.
3. Because I love it I will try to change the things I don' t like.
4. If your religious or political views can be boiled down to a t-shirt or bumper sticker, you haven't thought them through well enough.

Who saved Europe from Nazi and Stalin domination...and didn't place puppet governments or empirical governors afterwards? Who set up puppet governments in Central and South America as well as Iran.

Who helped the Brits drive the Argentinians form the Falklands? Who sold Argentina suppiles and gave them the money to pay for it during the same war?

Who's citizen's freely give their taxes so that other countries may write off their burdens? Who here gets there check and the money has already been TAKEN?

Who permits every citizen to become educated, get a job, speak their mind without threat of torture or death? Who can be called a traitor for disagreeing with the countries policies?

Where can you marry persons of same sex or different race, and not be shunned by society as a whole? Yeah where?

fortunatley we haven't had a Nero of Caligula. See: Nixon.

There is a thin line between patriotism and nationalism.

[Leaky Waders]

Drjones - thank you for the reply....

Faustulus....argh I wasn't even going to reply...trying to discuss politics over the net w/o voice inflection is kind of hard. And quipping little pieces of text is so...tedious. Anyways...here goes...

America doesn't install 'puppet governments' - this is merely one of the bumper stickers/t-shirt quotes that many have acquired to help convince themselves that we are trying to dominate the world. The govenerments that we build/support after the fall of an opposing government doesn't have to agree with the whole Americana concept...see present day France, Germany, Puerto Rico, Russia etc...however; governments that threaten ours may eventually find themselves replaced via military action if it baits the USA into war.

I'd recommend that you study Italy and Germany during the WW2 era to see how fascist governments truly pulled the strings of puppet governments.


Americans are taxxed by representation - consult the Boston Tea Party to see what happens when Americans are not taxxed with their input. Many persons taxes arent removed from their checks - that is why April 15th is so magical.


So let me get this right....Nixon burned Washington to make space for some Republican buildings and blamed it on the Christians, murdered those generals who opposed him, had massive orgies w/ congressional wives, left his whole estate to his horse, left the white house after being killed by the Praetorin guard thus ending the Nixon-Claudian line? Wow Plutarch and Suetonius must be pretty amazed by an elected officials total corruption...not to mention Gerald Ford..being left out of all the fun and all.

Just one uneducated Nationalist's view, ;)

-LW

[faustulus]

Since we seem to want to drag up that silly history thing.

See Manuel Noregia-- who put him into power? Can we say C-I-A?
how about the Shaw of Iran? I am not saying no one else has put up puppet governments, I am just saying we are not as clean as we would like to think. I won't even get into pre-Castro Cuba. And governments that the Soviets put up also and a few run-ins with Moscow, see 1968. And no they don't have to agree with American concept but I don't recall putting to many communist dictators in power.

If you think the Boston Tee Party was about taxation without representation we have a whole other problem, one I bet that was perpetuated by a public school. :( Funny though my check still has money taken out each month, can't vouch for everyone though.

Nixon: Watergate, Laos, Alger Hiss, Checkers, the Whitehouse Speical Investigations Unit, CREEP. Now I think he only ordered the slaughter of about 10,000 civilians during his bombing campaigns, and no he didn't to many orgies, that was left to Jack, He didn't leave his estate to a horse but he did leave the country to Ford -- you decide which is better, oh yeah the country just about tore itself apart. Nixon did destroy a great deal of trust the American Public had for the office of president.

My point was that America is not perfect, and simply accepting what is wrong and saying it is ok because it is my country is stupid. The spirit of America demands that we continue to try building that 'shinning city on the hill' It is good to remember all the great things this country has to offer, but it is also important to remember this is a work in progress. We cannot stop trying to build a better world.

[Leaky Waders]

Faustulus....while I agree to disagree on most of our conversation...I think you summed it up pretty well...

"It is good to remember all the great things this country has to offer, but it is also important to remember this is a work in progress. We cannot stop trying to build a better world."

v/r,

-L.W.

PS I like your Sam Colt equalizer sig...