[Cosmoline]

I've been shooting handguns actively for a decade now, and I've noticed a huge change in how I approach shooting short guns. When I started I tried very hard to get small groups and fussed around with various stances, trying to get them down pat. These days I just load up six speedloaders and slam out strings of five off the SP101. I don't pay much attention to stance or grip, I just focus on eliminating any hesitations. I'm trying to load, aim fire and empty in one fast movement with no adjustments or posture corrections. Even if the cylinder is still loose when I close it, I let the revolver fix the problem rather than setting it to the next click. I don't LET myself fix a poor stance if I'm not quite right when the arm comes up. I just blast away. I've also moved the target from 25 yards up to about 10. I am for a COM size area about a foot across and just try to get my lead in there.

My reasoning is, if I actually had to draw and fire IRL I would not have time to correct my posture or get my grip just right. The key is to make drawing and blasting a smooth and almost automatic act from any position. Does anyone else use this method or should I go back to way I was doing it before?

[AndyC]

Sounds like you took the time and trouble to learn how to shoot straight and you're now working on the practical stuff.

I've been shooting for 35 years now (started at 6 and from my late teens put easily 500 rounds a weekend downrange) and once I got over the pure accuracy-only basics, I then went for the best combination of speed and accuracy of which I was capable.

I then started fiddling with the practical, real-life, stuff happens kind of drills. Unusual positions, falling over, shooting on the run (and I mean run, not trot), checking for cover vs concealment, etc, etc.

Most of my range-work these days is close-range - if I feel lazy and want a warm up, I'll start shooting round target-patches stuck on the target at 10 yards, the aim being to hit the patch so that the outer edge remains intact. Then it's 3 and 5 yard targets, again with a patch as an ideal spot to hit using strong- and weak-hand then two-handed, using sights and not using sights. To cool down I'll put the last 20 rounds or so at an 8" steel plate at 50-yards.

Of course, that was all before I moved to the US recently - still don't have a handgun *growl*

[Iggy]

Bill Jordan use to say... Do it smooth and often, the speed will come!!

[MCgunner]

We've got a bunch of falling plate/steel stuff at the range the club bought. The silouhettes are cool, sort of half size. I do my speed drills on them and my accuracy drill practice on the 6" plates at 25 yards. I still wanna be accurate as possible when I need to be. I use handguns to hunt. They're not just self defense tools for me, never were. I like to pot rabbits, squirrels, and such with 'em. Shot some IHMSA for a while, good way to judge your accuracy skills. I've shot local matches from pins to some IDPA stuff to pepper popper matches to whatever. I like it all, so I practice it all.

I'm pretty confident in my self defense skills. What I more worry about far as self defense, not having any combat experience, is the senarios I might be caught up in and how to handle 'em. I think about such stuff a lot, do the "what if" thing. To me, situational awareness and having a good tactical plan is more important than the actual shooting. Chip McCormick and his race gun could be taking on a near sighted, on armed guy with a .32, but if that one armed guy is behind good cover and Chip is standing there shooting in the open, I think the one armed guy has a chance. My object is survival, not quickness, accuracy, or anything else when it comes to self defense. I always figured the guy that fought with his head had an advantage. I hope I never get to test all this, though. I'm perfectly happy just playing my little gun games and being ignorant. :D

[BullfrogKen]

Cosmoline said: Does anyone else use this method or should I go back to way I was doing it before?

Do whatever makes you happy.


Everyone has different preferences. Some look at pistol shooting, and shooting in general, as merely a sport. One local range allows NO rapid fire, and NO shooting on any target shaped like anything resembling a human sillouette. Participation in organized shooting matches are "encouraged", but not required. That place just ain't for me. . .

The range I spend my time at permits drawing from concealment, shooting while moving, 360 checks. The only thing we're really strict about is shooting outside after dusk, to keep from pissing off the neighbors, and destroying things.



I mostly practice from contact distance to 3 yards, multiple targets maybe ranging out to 7. I'll shoot steel plates out at 15 yds for speed, and 50 yard plates for accuracy.

Between shooting and moving, I'm convinced moving off the line of force is more important than shooting. And while only hits count, perfection is the enemy of good enough. As long as my hits stay in the cardiac triangle, I'm not concerned where they are in it.

[Bobo]

Yes, I use your method. My carry gun is for protection first. I shoot at targets only because they are better than shooting at armed opponents for practice which is generally frowned upon and it can also be a bit dangerous. :) :uhoh:

I go to the range often. During the first few sessions I shot my protection gun as a target pistol to get used to the feel, POI, etc.

After that I have always practiced as if I was in a protection situation. Close (5-7 yd), quick draws, many positions, moving and still, two-handed and one-handed, both weak and strong hands, mag changes, and I use various life-sized picture targets (not bullseye targets).

I always shoot three round groups; two to COM and one to head, or three to COM, or three to head. My basic goal is to get all hits within 1.5" of POA as fast as possible. I shoot for accuracy first, then slowly increase the speed until the accuracy goes over my 1.5" goal then I slow back down a bit.

[Double Naught Spy]

Taking Defensive Handgun II at TR in Texas, we were drawing and firing short strings, usually 2 shots, COM, at about 5 yards. My shot groups were 4-6" and that was far too large for the instructors. My assigned partner was doing groups of 2-3 or maybe 2-4" as were many, but they were often shooting AFTER I had finished my string. That isn't to say that I was fast. My draw was actually slower, but my shooting faster. Once my sights initially settled COM, I would double tap. What the other shooters were doing was more of letting their sights settle, then fine tune correct for minscule error, then slow fire one shot, then two, or double tapping, but not until the first shot was perfect.

As this was all going on, the instructors on the PA were barking the Earp misquote of "Fast is fine, but accuracy is final." The misquote is right, but completely ignores an important caveat. That is, accuracy doesn't mean crap if you are too dead to be accurate. I may not have been a very good shot compared to my fellow students, but if I was fighting them in a gun fight, landing 2 shots on the my opponent, COM and within 6" of one another will minimally be messing with their ability to aim their perfectly aligned shots and very well may land them as completely dead before they have a chance to shoot.

No doubt smooth is fast. The difference in my shots (and 2 or 3 others) and those of many of the other students was in the range of a quarter or half second between when my shots started and theirs as the majority of the class would just about shoot together in a resounding thunder. That amount of time is what it takes many folks to let their sights fully settle.

The critical aspect here is shooting good enough to handle the job. Nobody measures distances between impact and X rings. So at 5 yards, for example, do you want to spend much extra time getting that perfect 2-3" group knowing that you are close enough to the bad guy that he may very well be able to start landing shots on you as a matter of proximity and spray and pray tactics? How well are you going to be finishing up the sight alignment when the first impact on you occur?

Ken Hackathorn had us do a nifty test at 10 yards. He had us aim perfectly, then move the gun so that the front sight moved fully left (but still aligned vertically) until we could just see the edge of it in the rear sight notch, then fire. We then did it to the right. Next we lowered it all the way until just barely seeing the top, but had it centered horizontally, then we fired. Last, we raised the front sight until the base of the front sight left the rear sight notch sight picture and then fired. All 4 shots landed on the silhouette at 10 yards. For most guns with proper sights, if you can see any part of the front sight in the rear sight notch and actually intend COM, you can hit the opposition at 10 yards. It may not be a good hit, but you can hit. On my gun, the impact area, using the corners was roughly 20" tall by 20" wide. That is a 400 square in area.

So if you have that much slop at 10 yards and can hit, at 5 yards you will have potential max impact area only about 1/4 the size of the impact area at 10 yards (reducing both vert. and hor. dimensions by 1/2 for the reduced range, assuming your sight notch is square). So the box is now 10x10" as max size for seeing the sights in the notch, or 1/4 the area.

Now, at 5 yards, if you can see half of your front sight in any of the 4 directions, only half, you have a 5x5" potential impact area or another 1/4 of the previous size. So that was about what I was doing, sometimes better, sometimes worse, but close. Now, take a 5x5" square and put it on your person COM. Would you be happy landing 2 shots in the box on a bad guy if you could do it BEFORE he shot you, or would you rather wait until you can line up the idea shot...keeping in mind you don't know the skill of the bad guy, but you know he is more than close enough to be effective via luck.

Hackathorn used this as a training point to help us shoot better, but it also showed just how far away a person could be and have crappy of a sight picture that person could have and still shoot you, maybe not lethally the first time.

Funny thing, the same gun school gurus really tight shot groups in practice will tell you that you will speed up in real life. They also tell you that you will shoot like you have trained. Okay, so you speed up. Given the circumstances of the fight, your opposition has undoubtedly sped up as well. If he speeds up as much as you, you may still be wasting time working the perfect shot since your increased speed may not be any more than his increased speed.

Of course you have to hit well enough to be effective, but spending time for the really precise "accuracy is final" shot may be what end up being final for you.

[Sergeant Sabre]

Go slow, but in a real big hurry.

[Vern Humphrey]

Smoothness and accuracy first, speed later.

There's a security cam video circulating on the internet where a hooded bad guy comes into a convenience store, whips out his pistol, loses his grip and actually throws it to the clerk. There's a millisecond pause, and then he heads back out the door.:D

That can happen. Think how embarassing it would be.

For a beginner, start with a exaggerated slow-motion draw (which is good for safety, too) for about a thousand rounds, then start speeding up. Take note of what happens -- if you have a bad draw, you may from time to time drop back to the slow-motion practice and smooth out any bad wrinkles that have developed.

[Billy_H]

I had an instructor tell us (the class) something that made a lot of sense in regards to defensive shooting...He said he wasn't looking for match style marksmanship, but rather "good enough". Good enough to stop a threat and get the job done...makes sense to me.

[RyanM]

I usually do a mixture of slowfire at longer range, and Shooting to Live point-shooting at closer range.

[rhubarb]

I like it when I draw and the gun goes off by itself just as my arms reach full extension.

If the holes are close to the middle of the target, that's about right.

[timothy75]

SCARY, if you practice that, thats what will happen.

[f4t9r]

I do both shooting at the range

[Vern Humphrey]

Go slow, but in a real big hurry.

"Get your gun out as quick as you can, and take you own sweet time about aiming."
-- Wyatt Earp

[rchernandez]

With the 1911 wadgun and marvel .22lr, 50/25 yards outdoor, bullseye practice. Use B6 & B8 targets.

Defensive shooting practice with Glock 19 & J-frame. B27/B29/B34(whichever): 7 & 15yards out door; or, 10-30(ish) feet indoor. Slow-aimed/fast-point/weak hand/etc. Mainly COM shots.


One day, I'll bring the 2" j-frame for CF.

[10-Ring]

I was taught that you need to go slow to go fast. Practice at a deliberate pace getting everything right and when pushed, the muscle memory should kick in and do the job you've trained for.
What I've noticed is that since I took so much time choosing guns that fit me properly, pointed naturally in my hands and shot straight, getting things lined up in a hurry isn't that difficult.

[Matt King]

I always go slow, i find it more relaxing and enjoyable.

[lycanthrope]

Here's an interesting thread from a different angle on the same topic. Perhaps learning to be fast before accurate also has it's place.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32552

[bluto]

I began shooting strictly slow fire for fun and accuracy. As cross dominant (left eye, right handed) I shot with my left eye closed. As my fundamentals came together over time my accuracy became increasingly better and consistant. I recently found that both eyes were opening naturally and my slow fire training made my presentation naturally stop at eye level with good sight alignment. The result is that I find myself taking much faster shots "slow fire" while increasing my accuracy and am able to maintain relatively good accuracy (controlling recoil and recovery) pulling the trigger as fast as my range will allow. It's cut my range time in half!:D

My point is that it seems to me you can approach speed and accuracy from either direction. They can be complimentary.

[dairycreek]

Practice, practice, practice and then trust your muscle memory to do the rest. Make sure your practice is as disciplined as it can be under the circumstances you are imposing on yoursefl. Your muscle memory will do the rest for you - just trust it;)

[Black Majik]

I take forever to finish a range session. I take my sweet ol' time at the range. I come back out and the Range Master has already grown a grey beard. :evil:

[middy]

I practice a smooth draw with no wasted motion, disregarding speed. It gets faster all by itself the more you practice.

Shooting, I practice double-taps and rapid fire at 10-15 yards.

Precision? That's what rifles are for...

[Vern Humphrey]

I practice a smooth draw with no wasted motion, disregarding speed. It gets faster all by itself the more you practice.

That's exactly right -- smooth, flawless execution with no wasted motion is what you want to practice. Speed will come with time.

[Chris Rhines]

Accuracy is easy. Learning to be fast is hard. Work speed first, accuracy will come.

- Chris

[Black Majik]

Accuracy is easy. Learning to be fast is hard. Work speed first, accuracy will come.

I'm the other way around. Learn accuracy and smoothness first, and speed with come.

[Chris Rhines]

I'm the other way around. Learn accuracy and smoothness first, and speed with come. So are most people. So was I, when I was first learning to shoot. But it's easier and more efficient, both physically and mentally, to train for speed first. Worry about shrinking the group sizes once you've got the hand-eye coordination and visual awareness worked out.

- Chris

[Vern Humphrey]

Accuracy is easy. Learning to be fast is hard. Work speed first, accuracy will come.

With all due respect, it's just the other way around. If you start trying for speed, you'll never master the critical basics.

Work on a smooth, unhurried draw with no wasted motion and reasonable accuracy. Make each draw perfect. With time, you'll get speed.

[SpookyPistolero]

I'm with the slow is smooth, smooth is fast club.

Go slow first, get smooth, get fast. Natural.

As you're going slow, just make sure your body is memorizing the proper and most efficient steps to get things in the right place.

I forget the website, and if you're interested I'll try to find it, but it has a small target that pops up on the screen for a small amount of time, and then dissapears. The idea is to draw when the target pops up, and dry fire (calling the shot) before it dissapears again. Nice tool.

[flatdog]

While speed is just compression of the basics into a smaller time frame. IMO there is no fast without smooth. Incorrect application of the basics in the quest for speed will inevitably lead to missed shots.

Now you have less ammunition to solve a bad problem that you just morphed into a worse one, not good.

[warriorsociologist]

+1 to what Vern & flatdog said.

[Chris Rhines]

With all due respect, it's just the other way around. If you start trying for speed, you'll never master the critical basics. You are, of course, free to train however you like. But you are very much wrong on this point. As I stated above, speed is much harder to develop than accuracy. That is not to say that a new shooter should just hose bullets willy-nilly at the berm. He should start with a relatively large target at relatively close distance (say, a 12"x12" square at 5 yards) and concentrate on getting every shot on that target, as fast as possible. Worry about the long-range precision shooting later, once the speed has been dialed in.

A fast shooter can always take an extra second to line up his shot. A slow shooter is pretty well screwed if he needs to get off the blocks fast.

- Chris

[HSMITH]

As I shoot more and watch the people that make strides faster than some others I tend to agree with Chris.

Blazing speed is more important in the beginning. Learning to let go and get rounds downrange with an acceptable sight picture is a heck of a lot harder for someone that has been punching X's for all his shooting than it is for someone that learns to get the gun out and start shooting RIGHT NOW!! The X-ring guy is going to refine his sight picture well beyond what is necessary every time, because that is all his brain knows how to do and the speed demon will fire when he sees the target somewhere on the sights. Getting the X guy to let go and fire as soon as some bit of the front sight is where it needs to be seems to be a heck of a lot harder than getting the fast guy to pull back the throttle just a hair and tighten up his shots.

I started action shooting coming from an accuracy background. I can make very precise shots, but it wasn't until I learned how to let go and shoot an 'acceptable' sight picture that I was able to generate any real speed. My first shot times on a 7 yard target came down from 1.7ish to just under one second, a HUGE gain.

ANYONE that isn't seeing some sort of sight picture on every shot beyond about 3 or 4 yards really needs to step back and evaluate what they are doing. The timer will show that you can react faster to a visual sight picture and trigger the second shot from that visual cue than your concious mind can tell your finger to hit the trigger again because you have already fired once. Double tapping is slower than sighted fire. For me the difference is almost 2 tenths of a second at 7 yards. I can double tap at about .35 second intervals, I can shoot the sights down into the high teens. Another upside is my hits are a lot better shooting the sights, faster and more accurate is never a bad thing.

[SpookyPistolero]

But we see this every month at the IDPA match, where some new folks show up and inevitably a couple will be from the 'take your time and make hits' group, and the others from the 'speed above all' group. By the third or fourth stage, the folks who shot for some accuracy have learned they can speed up a bit without sacrificing hits. The others who rush and flail their pistol into action are still not making hits, and their penalties greatly outweigh the time they saved through speed. The ones who start slow and work into the speed beat the speed demons.

Also, I see far more safety violations from those speedy starts than from the folks ingraining safe, efficient movements in their drawstroke.

[flatdog]

A fast shooter can always take an extra second to line up his shot. A slow shooter is pretty well screwed if he needs to get off the blocks fast.

A fast shooter who takes an extra second becomes a screwed slow shooter.

If you compress the basics. That is correct grip, presentation, flash sight picture, trigger press, etc. There will be no need to slow down to refine your sight picture. You will hit your target with as much speed and accuracy as you can muster at any practical distance.

Confidence in your ability gained from ingraining the fundamentals combined with a proper mindset, is a powerful tool.

Personally I'd rather tickle a wild lion in the arse with a feather. Than get caught in a close range fight with a pistol, any pistol.

[Vern Humphrey]

But we see this every month at the IDPA match, where some new folks show up and inevitably a couple will be from the 'take your time and make hits' group, and the others from the 'speed above all' group. By the third or fourth stage, the folks who shot for some accuracy have learned they can speed up a bit without sacrificing hits. The others who rush and flail their pistol into action are still not making hits, and their penalties greatly outweigh the time they saved through speed. The ones who start slow and work into the speed beat the speed demons.

Also, I see far more safety violations from those speedy starts than from the folks ingraining safe, efficient movements in their drawstroke.

As the man said, you can't miss fast enought to win -- either in competition or in a real gunfight.

Let's remember what we're talking about here. We're talking about training -- we aren't born master-class pistol shooters. We have to learn. And the best way to learn is to start slow, developing a smooth, no-wasted-motion presentation and shot. Thoroughly train on the basics, and speed will come.

[lycanthrope]

Not to take one side or the other......but speed doesn't always come easily. A lazy cadence can also be ingrained along with learning fundamental techniques and that can lock a shooter into a place where speed is limited. Some shooters always wait for "perfect" sight alignment without realizing there are better ways to shoot closer targets and are unaware of differing types of focus on varying targets.

You must learn fundamentals AND speed.

After you learn safety fundamentals FIRST, I don't think it matters from which end you approach it from.

[DRZinn]

Guys, guys, GUYS!!!!

It's not just fast vs. accurate. It's accurate enough and fast enough.

As was mentioned in the very first post, if you're faster than the other guy and accurate enough to put rounds in center mass, you're gonna win, nine times outta ten.

If you're more accurate than the other guy, and fast enough to hit him before he hits you, you're gonna win, nine times outta ten.

It's always a compromise. I'd rather have two rounds somewhere in his chest before he can pull the trigger than one round almost ready to squeeze off into the exact center of his sternum, when he shoots me.

[BullfrogKen]

If we are able to place an entire magazine's worth of rounds into our adversary, in say . . . 3 seconds? How much time does it take for the body to react to the damage and succumb to it? A time interval probably more than instantaneously.

Consider the actions a person who has been shot might do in the immediate aftermath of being shot:

Fall down dead, or incapacitated;
Run away;
Surrender, some other way communicate they have decided to end the fight;
Continue doing whatever they were doing before they were shot.

Handguns work well as behavior modification devices, pyschologically, but are marginally effective at best at producing immediate psychical results unless fortune is on our side that day.

Most people shot with handguns continue doing whatever they were doing before they were shot. Of the two choices: being a blazingly fast draw and accurate shot, or moving off the line of force. I'm convinced moving off the line of force has far more importance.


Otherwise, the best we can do is tie.

[zoom6zoom]

And since no one else has said it... when you start practicing drawing your piece, start with an unloaded one...

[sevesteen]

I'm fairly new to semiautos--Years ago I had a .357 revolver, and rarely practiced anything but single-action carefully aimed fire. At my current skill level with a subcompact .40, I'm happy if standing carefully-aimed fire gives about 8 out of 10 in a 5" circle at 10 yards. I've found that going to firing as soon as I get a flash sight picture gives 8 out of 10 rounds in 6 or 7 inches, in about 4 seconds.

[BullfrogKen]

Or, we can use a Ring's Blue gun. The ASP ones always seem over-molded, and are too tight in my holsters.

But, since the majority of people do not invest in a drone training replica . . .

Yes, when practicing, an empty gun checked and rechecked, with all ammo placed in some other room when practicing at home is a must. And it is probably a good idea to do the same as a novice learning how to draw a gun.