[drw2514]

I'm relatively new to handguns, but over the past couple of months, I've accumulated three (an xd9, a gp100 and a ppk in .380). I was at the range today and I rented a full-size (5") Springfield 1911. I shot fairly well with it (alright, very well) and I'm contemplating getting one in the future, but I was wondering: I've read on this forum rants and raves about how great of a self-defense cartridge the .45 is, but from what I've seen, it has been outclassed by more modern cartridges like .40 S&W, etc., in both muzzle velocity and muzzle energy. Even the 9mm comes close in both those departments, as well. So what makes the .45 so special? Is the allure of the .45 simply the gun that is chambered for it (I speak of the original, the 1911, and its supreme wonderfulness) or is there some ballistic evidence that I haven't yet stumbled upon that solidifies the .45 as the ultimate handgun self-defense cartridge?

[AndyC]

A 9mm might expand, but a .45 doesn't shrink.

Seriously, I believe it's more a matter of hitting what you intend to hit - it's more the operator than the cartridge, but the tissue-crushing volume that a bigger bullet achieves just gives one more of an edge. I'll take all the edges I can get.

That being said, the first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun" - rather a .22 on you than a .45 in the safe back home.

[Ash]

The .45 is a fine self-defense round with a proven record of ability. It starts out at .45 and only gets bigger, whereas 9mm starts smaller and, at best, ends up around the size of .45.

9mm and .40S&W are certainly capable self defense rounds, and have strong followers in their own right. When push came to shove for me, though, I chose .45ACP, even though it was an EAA Witness over my cherished 9mm and .40S&W CZ's.

Ash

[Derek Zeanah]

Hrmmm...

How to compose a reply that most won't disagree with. ;)

I think the arguments you'll see relate to the size of a wound channel. 9mm and .40 S&W and such really depend on the design of the hollow point to expand, but sometimes they don't (clothing plugging the hole, etc). A .45 is almost a half-inch in diameter even if you're shooting ball. So while you've got less velocity with a .45 and therefore less likelihood of expanding, there's a lot less need to expand, too.

Me personally? I shoot 9mm and .45 a lot better than I can shoot a .40 S&W. I'll choose a .45 over a 9mm mainly because of the platform (1911) which I find relatively easy to hit with. That's not to say I'm uncomfortable with 9mm diameter though -- I've got a .357 I'm quite happy with as well. ;)

[Lou22]

One reason I carry my .45 when I can over a smaller caliber, is that most handguns rounds don't have much in the way of stopping power, unless you're lucky to hit a part of the nervious system or the heart or a major blood vessel. A lot of times you get an entry hole and maybe an exit hole. The bad guy may end up going down eventually because of loss of blood. A .45 makes a bigger hole, therefore you'd expect faster blood loss.

Maybe oversimplified, but a significant factor.

Lou

[kmrcstintn]

I'm not sure how to answer this so I'm gonna have you visualize something:

Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:

Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed

This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet

.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge

I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)

[pdowg881]

For me, I dont think it would matter if i was hit with a .45 or 9mm. Either way I wouldbe out of the fight, assuming a torso hit. I think most people that aren't use to getting shot will be out no matter what size the bullet. Then again I'm not sure what effect adrenaline may have so I gues I have no clue what I'm saying.

[kmrcstintn]

I'm not sure how to answer this so I'm gonna have you visualize something:

Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:

Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed

This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet

.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge

I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)

This was offered for illustration only. I am not a guru or expert in any sense.

[XLMiguel]

Because they don't make a .46:neener:

But seriously, shot placement is the single biggest determinate of fight stopping ability, but the simple fact is that a good hit with a .45 is still better than the same hit with a smaller [handgun] round, all other things being equal (which is rarely the case). Carry what you shoot well.

[Surefire]

You can't go wrong with any of the top defense rounds (9mm, .40, .45 acp, 10 mm, etc).



IMO, the 9mm and .45 acp have the advantage of being easy on the shooter--both rounds are very mild in the recoil department. The .45 of course will make a bigger hole than 9mm if the hollowpoints fail.

The .40 is a great defense round, but IMO isn't quiet as fun for target work due to the snap.

My preference is for .45 ACP (or .40 S&W) to be used in a full sized gun, and 9mm to be used in compacts and subcompacts. My reasoning is that I feel .45 ACP especially doesn't have a lot of velocity to begin with, and I don't think it helps any to fire it in a 3" barrel. 9mm which is typically a fast round I don't think would be as effected when firing in a short barreled pistol.

I think the simple answer is that each shooter needs to select what works best for them. Choose the most powerful round that you can control the best.

[Surefire]

Because they don't make a .46

Agree with this answer.

I recall reading about a very limited made .50 ACP round...if that round ever caught on and was common I'd be all over it! ;)

[odysseus]

Ahhh... the venerable 9mm vs .45 thread.

Both are fine calibers in self defense. Before 9mm was not as good of a choice since round development was weak in the 9mm parabellum. Now I think there are all kinds of good rounds in 9mm. Like someone said, I wouldn't want to be shot with either. I agree with what Derek said - it depends more on what you like, the platform you are shooting from; basically what you feel you shoot better.

Wound cavity is great conversation for the couch, I think both incapacitate as required and both are stopped by vests - so I am not sure about all that analysis and how it applies in real world terms for most anybody here using it in self defense.

What do I prefer personally? .45.:D

[MCgunner]

The .45 is no better than the 9 and not as good as the .40 on paper. In actual use, they're all pretty weak and there ain't much difference in the best loads of any of 'em. So, for me, the 9 comes in much handier to hide and carry guns, shoots accurate in my subcompact, is powerful, is reliable, and I shoot it well. It don't get no better'n that. They don't make the .45 that will fit a pocket. They don't make the .45 that's as easy to carry. That's why my .45 stays at home. Beside, considering the similar performance, I'd rather have the 9 and more rounds in a smaller gun to boot.

I just never got a .40. It's a good caliber, like I say, on paper a better round than the .45 or 9, but I don't think it's practically that much better. I've got my stuff picked out, I shoot it well, no need to change until they invent the phazer.

[Texshooter]

For me the .45 ACP is MUCH more fun and easier to shoot than the .40S&W caliber. I shoot it better, it does not aggrevate my arthritis as bad. I like the hi cap nines, but have more trust in the bigger diameter round.

[Ala Dan]

plus the fact that the .45 ACP is a low pressure round, that lends its-self
to us handloaders who work up loads that far out class factory ammo. I
find the .45 ACP much easier too shoot than a .40S&W shot from the
same type weapon~!:uhoh: I guess thats why I own more weapons
chambered for the .45 ACP than any other caliber.:D

[10-Ring]

I guess I bought into the big bullet, big hole theory and have stuck to it :cool: Plus, it is just a smooth shooting round that it's tough not having it in the collection! :cool:

[Mad Magyar]

A handgun bullet can miss alot as it travels through the torso. When you have, say a EFMJ in a .45, you can disrupt more tissue/organs than a smaller caliber. But, a well-known medical examiner put it nicely: "where you shoot the suspect and how many times you can shoot him" gives you maximum incapacitation.:cool:

[MCgunner]

A handgun bullet can miss alot as it travels through the torso. When you have, say a EFMJ in a .45, you can disrupt more tissue/organs than a smaller caliber.

Well, okay, lets say that you don't believe in kinetic energy, just something they teach in school that has no relevance in the real world, you know, like gravity or something. You figure only the tissue that is directly struck by the bullet is going to be destroyed, anything else around it is hunky dory. Then, you take your two bullet diameters, .355 and .451, you have a difference in diameter of .096" which means that there is only .048" in radius difference. So, if you miss that heart with that .45, you still destroy some heart tissue if you nick it where the 9mm is going to miss by ALMOST 5 one hundredths of an inch????? :rolleyes:

Whatever. The .45 ain't gonna make a poor shooter win, put it that way. If you can't hit COM, give up and hope for mercy. Don't really matter what you're shootin'.

[Soybomb]

I like the .45 because in hotter loads it can expand to nearly an inch...something that 9mm and .40 can't do. But if you're forcing me to leave 9mm, I'm going to 10mm.

[surfinUSA]

I like the 45 a lot, but I like the 40 better. The 40s usually come in guns that are easier to conceal and carry more rounds than the 45 and I believe they are better round than the 9mm.

But in uniform or at the range the SIG 220 is great gun, just alot of fun to shoot. The real truth is I also like the 10mm and 9mm alot too. At the range they are all good.

[possum]

I carry .40cal, and only shoot 9mm at the range, never plan to use it as a personal defense gun. I would have a .45 caliber for the same reason, like a 1911 for example i would use it mostly at the range and have the gun for the simple reason to say i have one and to have a little fun with it every once in a while.

[BullfrogKen]

Handguns are marginally effective at best. Any of them. All of them. It doesn't matter if it starts with a .3 or .4 to measure it. Unless you're shooting a rifle cartridge in a Contender . . . Handguns are all marginally effective at best.

Get the largest caliber you can accurately and comfortably shoot, in a platform you can manage to make work and carry often (if that's your purpose) and practice with it. Nothing can make up for poor shot placement.


.45 ACP puts down steel plates more reliably, but I can shoot 9mm and 38 Super a bit more rapidly and accurately. More importantly, they're cheaper, even for a reloader, so I can practice more with them for the same $$$.

[phantomak47]

"I'm not sure how to answer this so I'm gonna have you visualize something:

Imagine yourself the target in this scenario:

Someone throws a dart at you (small diameter, fast moving object with lessmass) and hits you; it pierces your skin; it hurts; it causes trauma; you bleed

This same person stands in front of you and swings at you with a regulation wood baseball bat (large diameter; slower moving object with more mass) and it hits you; it really hurts; it causes trauma; you are knocked off your feet

.45 acp is the wooden baseball bat; 9mm is the dart; A slower moving, larger diameter bullet causes more crushing tissue damage that a faster moving, smaller diameter bullet does when comparing handgun cartridge to handgun cartridge

I don't know if this helps, but consider this: LAPD authorizes officers to carry 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp; the majority of new guns being turned out are Glock; the majority of Glocks being turned out are in .45acp (uniformed officers)

This was offered for illustration only. I am not a guru or expert in any sense."














LAPD stopped issuing the Glock 21 in 45 due to massive problems that Glock couldnt fix after 3 attempts.

[MCgunner]

That's not exactly an applicable analogy there. :rolleyes: The ball bat is going to have a heck of a lot more kinetic energy than a dart. Not so with 9 vs .45, very similar. One's a little bit faster with a little less mass than the other. Not a big difference at all. For all practical purposes, caliber doesn't matter at this point, shot placement does.

Now then, you stand there and I'll throw this dart into your chest as hard as I can. Pull it out now and let me shoot you in the chest with this 9mm +P round and let's see which works better.

[Diamondback6]

Because .50AE is too powerful and requires too big a gun to be practical for urban self-defense, and .50GI isn't quite ready for prime-time yet. Once the patent expires and more manufacturers offer loads, and it's more widely available (if it happens)...

'Til that great day, make mine .45ACP or .45 Super.

But this is only my $0.02...

['Card]

I've got both. To me, the 9mm feels like I'm plinking when I shoot it. My .45ACP feels like something significant and unfortunate is happening downrange when I pull the trigger.

With my XD-45, I've got as many rounds in the magazine as any of my 9's, it's every bit as comfortable in my hand (if not more so) and it makes bigger holes. With all other things being equal, I go with the bigger holes.

[kmrcstintn]

"Now then, you stand there and I'll throw this dart into your chest as hard as I can. Pull it out now and let me shoot you in the chest with this 9mm +P round and let's see which works better."

Feel free...I'm unemployed; I can't seem to get an interview worth a hoot after submitting 17 applications/resumes; I'm most likely going to lose my unemployment benefits in 2 days at the hearing where my employer has challenged my ability to collect; then I'm going to have to burden some relatives for an undisclosed length of time since I won't be able to pay rent; then I have the wonderful rite to file bankrupty since without income I can't pay my bills; I'll lose the car and any other possessions that can be sold for a nickel...in other words I am deeply depressed and don't give a flyin' flip anymore!!! :cuss: :cuss: :banghead: :banghead: :barf: :barf: :mad: :mad:

I'm not posting on this forum no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

['Card]

I'm unemployed; I can't seem to get an interview worth a hoot after submitting 17 applications/resumes; I'm most likely going to lose my unemployment benefits in 2 days at the hearing where my employer has challenged my ability to collect; then I'm going to have to burden some relatives for an undisclosed length of time since I won't be able to pay rent; then I have the wonderful rite to file bankrupty since without income I can't pay my bills; I'll lose the car and any other possessions that can be sold for a nickel...in other words I am deeply depressed and don't give a flyin' flip anymore!
Hey, thanks for sharing! :cool:

[648E]

Because they don't sell 10mm ammo at Wal-Mart in this town. :neener:

[Danus ex]

You'll find that a lot of guys who hate the "tiny 9mm" and tout the .45 because it "doesn't get smaller" also have great respect for the .357, which has a diameter of...what? :)

kmrcstintn - Yikes.

[SFvet]

Actually the difference is quite clear "all things being equal" IE. Federal Hydrashok: 124gr JHP gives 138.88 and for the 230gr JHP gives 204.7. Velocity of bullet weight / 1000. Now if the light bullet is going fast enough... it developes the same if not more factor. It really depends on how fast the little buggers are going and how slow the "baseball bats" are going hehe. Stay Safe.

[Heraclid]

kmrcstintn, attitude is everything.

[Lone_Gunman]

You'll find that a lot of guys who hate the "tiny 9mm" and tout the .45 because it "doesn't get smaller" also have great respect for the .357, which has a diameter of...what?

True, but how about we tell the rest of the story...

The 357 magnum generally pushes HEAVIER bullets at FASTER velocity than 9mm. This, coupled with the semi-jacketed hollowpoint of the 357, make it MUCH more likely to reliably expand than the 9mm.

[CZF]

Given the fact that no load is 100% stopper.
The modern day high velocity JHP or PowRball rounds are great for the 9mm.
I'd rather shoot someone with Ranger +P+ than .45 hardball.

I'd opt for 45 hardball over 9mm FMJ.

The .357 SIG has always intrigued me.
Ultra-fast with an impressive track record in LE.

The .40 has never lit my fire, I have a 10MM if I need forty caliber power.

As for the LAPD and the .45?? I've asked that question before. The issue 9mm load (Remington 147 gr.JHP) reportedly has had a great success for them.

Whether or not the .45 has better stopping power in their hands is unknown.

They were
allowed .45s after the North Hollywood Bank incident. A caliber/load
that would NOT have made any difference on armor clad BGs.


Again, why they would opt for .45s -when the 9mm has worked so well is a mystery to me.

I carry a 9mm because I get high-capacity, good penetration, and low recoil.
A 10MM in the woods for magnum punch and long range..over the
9mm or .45 ACP.
I like a .45 for house duty. Low flash and penetration.

[Doggieman]

9mm vs. 40 vs. 45 is like asking which brand of sunglasses is the best. Pick the style you feel comfortable with and relax. Then get bored with that one and buy another one ;)

[45auto]

Because in pistols, "bigger is better", that's common sense IMHO.
If it wasn't, there wouldn't be expanding bullets for all calibers.

The question is really how much better and at what cost, i.e. weight, recoil and less mag capacity. That's what everyone has to decide.

:)

[DPB]

I've found that given a legitimate modern cartridge (9x19, .40, .45) the platform is more important than the cartridge.

I shoot a single stack .45 better than any other handgun. The ergonomics just agree with me. A close second is the Glock 19. A distant third is the Browning Hi Power. Everything else is a distant fourth.

If you accept 9mm/.38 Special as a power minimum, and use the platform that is most ergonomically agreeable for you, you will be able to deliver multiple hits with adequate speed and accuracy, to multiple targets if necessary.

Reference "because they don't make a .46," there is a point at which power becomes detrimental. If they made a ".46," and it vaporized an attacker, but required four seconds (or even one second) to recover for your second shot, any scenario involving multiple assailants (a rising trend) will end up with the following box score:

You: 1 (vaporization)
Bad Guys: 1 (scored while you were trying to recover)

Personally, I can't afford to have the bad guys score any. So, .45 is probably the highest caliber common cartridge usable for most people. The original 10mm might have been useable for individuals with a strong grip. The current factory 10mm is pretty much loaded to .40 levels anyway. .375 Sig may be a fine round, I don't know. Right now, I think it is not a great defensive caliber for a completely different reason: It's more expensive for me to practice with.

[BHPshooter]

Why .45?

Well, because everyone knows -- you hear about it every day on the news! -- that guys can take a full 50-round box of 9mm to the brain and keep on going.

Compare that with the .45, which, even if you were to wing a guy in the arm, will tear the arm off and send the guy flying rearward a distance that is inversely proportional to his weight.

*sigh* :rolleyes:

Okay, in case you didn't get that, the above section was deep-fried in sarcasm.

Listen -- I'm not gonna say that there is no difference between calibers (heck, just look at the .25ACP!), but the single most determinant factor is none other than Marksmanship!!!

Here's my take on the issue: find a caliber that is capable of enough penetration to hit the vitals after, say, shooting through an arm, and learn to use it well. Learn to get good hits consistently. YOU are what is going to make your gun of choice effective.

Wes

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Hmmm... I'm sure there are some, but I've never shot a .40s&w that was accurate.

There's a lot of cheap and expensive 9's that can't hit the broad side of a barn too.

The .45acp just seems inherantly more accurate.

9x19, .45acp --MODERN?

Now let's look at history. Cops quit carrying .357mags because missed perps, lead to dead kids in the neighboring apartment. They quit carrying .38spl revolvers because the perps had nines with more rounds. Comparing the the two, the cops went to the nine, BUT, then they were taught to double tap because one 9 of 130gn wasn't bringing down the guy on PCP. Then came the .40. A little more oumph. A little more recoil, but managable. Still, they're taught to double tap. I wonder why?

With the 45, you can't afford to double tap since you've got half the rounds. You've got to make everyshot count. And, from what I read, you don't need to double tap. Grand pappy's brother was in Korea, my uncle in NAM. They swore by the 1911 .45acp. One shot! Sight the next target!

Another comparison. The M1 vs the M16. The bigger round is an effective killer. The little round is designed to injure, not kill. And, If you've got more rounds, they'll get shot. If you've got less rounds, you'll shoot better.

Oh, and read my signature if you didn't understand the first time.

-Steve

[kmrcstintn]

please accept my apology for my attitude and comments on an earlier posting; I usually hit the wall out of frustration and disappointment one night a week (related to job loss and inability to generate interest where I apply for work); last night I should have stayed off the internet and not have posted;

for the person that updated my posting about the LAPD and Glock 45's...thank you since I was not aware of that fact

for the person who countered my illustration...you are right the 9mm is not like a tiny dart and comparing it to a .45 as a baseball bat was unfair and ridiculous;

when I did own autoloaders, I opted for 9mm more often; I like Beretta 92's; my choice of HD load was the Winchester WWB Personal Defense 147gr JHP due to price and testimonials of testings listed on GlockTalk;

after having to sell off the majority of the collection after getting fired, I started thinking about returning to my introduction to autoloaders and the venerable .45 acp; I just don't want to get another 1911 format (they always gave me trouble and had to dump $$$ to get them foolproofed); there's hardly a worthwhile .45 autoloader under $500 and I can't afford to buy junk and have to trade it off

if I ever get the chance to get another autoloader, I think I will return to .45 since my other remaining guns are a .38 and a .357 and have the realtive diameter of a 9mm and I want a big bore for a change; this is why I was kinda hard on the 9mm and I am not a fan of .40 S&W

then I remember how much more I like the revolver platform and how incredibly expensive a .45 acp wheelgun costs (S&W 625 & Thunder Ranch 22); I would probably even tried a Taurus Tracker, but they stopped making them and the Smittys cost way too much for a man without financial stability:(

I'm frustrated at my current situation and the fact that I foolishly let go of a S&W 625 a few years ago because I listened to some autoloader lovers and convinced myself that I needed more than 6 shots...what a fool I was :banghead:

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Apology accepted....

What kind of work are you out of?


(I know, I know, we should keep to the topic of the thread, but sometimes a guy should be allowed to vent.)

[Manedwolf]

Well...I know of someone who was hit with dozens of rounds of .45, 9mm, and various rifle calibers, and survived.

They had a basement shelf they kept ammo on fall and dump the boxes on them. I guess that doesn't count, though. :D

[BullfrogKen]

Steve (Jack . . . OATMON)

I can tell you an account of a man who shot a fella in an Iraqi prison fight with a 9mm Commander, then put a few rounds of 12 ga 00 center mass into him at close range . . . Only to have him continue to fight until he was beaten into unconsciousness by the same slide locked Commander.

I know the man, I saw the gun, I know the 'smith that fixed it after he showed us the bent frame. Its not internet lore. The guy survived, by the way, in quite good health.


"Double taps only needed with a .45"? It isn't any more reliable a fight stopper than anything else you're going to carry everywhere concealed. Can't afford to doubletap? Not enough rounds? Even with an original Officer's frame and standard mag, there's 7? If I thought I'd have to get into extended firefights . . . well . . . I'd have a lot more considerations to weigh than my personal sidearm. It takes a LOT of moxey to stand toe to toe in a gunbattle. The average aggressor we're likely to encounter won't want to stick around when the air is full of lead. And them that will . . . we've probably got more problems than just good gun handling skills and a .45 will solve.


And there was a LOT more that went into why police departments migrated to autoloaders than your simple progression. The revolver's effectiveness and the man who carried it had little to do with it. Money, politics, and a lot of other irrevelant crap did.

[orionengnr]

Quote:
"Now let's look at history. Cops quit carrying .357mags because missed perps, lead to dead kids in the neighboring apartment. They quit carrying .38spl revolvers because the perps had nines with more rounds. Comparing the the two, the cops went to the nine, BUT, then they were taught to double tap because one 9 of 130gn wasn't bringing down the guy on PCP. Then came the .40. A little more oumph. A little more recoil, but managable. Still, they're taught to double tap. I wonder why?

With the 45, you can't afford to double tap since you've got half the rounds. You've got to make everyshot count. And, from what I read, you don't need to double tap. Grand pappy's brother was in Korea, my uncle in NAM. They swore by the 1911 .45acp. One shot! Sight the next target!"
End Quote

Wow...revisionist history is putting it mildly. Pure BS might be closer to the truth...

[MCgunner]

please accept my apology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

please accept my apology for my attitude and comments on an earlier posting; I usually hit the wall out of frustration and disappointment one night a week (related to job loss and inability to generate interest where I apply for work); last night I should have stayed off the internet and not have posted;



Jeez, whew, glad I don't have to live with the thought I drove a guy to suicide, now. :D LOL

I lost my job a couple of years ago, but I'm old enough I was almost ready for retirement, anyway. got a steady retirement income. I think they did me a favor. I work for myself for spending money (mechanic), now, and am happy with less. Hopefully, though, less is temporary. LOL!

Cheer up, though. Something will come around, just keep pluggin' at it.

Now then, .45s? I think the single most important reason the .45 is so popular is the 1911 and Jeff Cooper, Chuck Taylor, and other writers of their ilk that have become reverends preaching the 1911 gospel to the brain washed masses. I never fell for the 1911 BS. Well, I did, I gotta admit, then I found out what a run of the mill platform it really was, dated, not really my cup-a-tea, didn't fill my hand well, didn't point all that naturally (the big attributes preached by the reverend Cooper). I still have a .45 DA, though. And, .45 in a 1911 makes a great game gun. I just don't like 'em for carry, heavy, single action, won't fit in a pocket, and many times too picky about the ammo they'll feed. My Ruger P90 is actually lighter and easier to carry, works every time with any round out of the box, much more accurate out of the box, and my preferred platform, a DA. It will not, however, fit in a pocket, so it don't get toted a lot.

[MCgunner]

The 357 magnum generally pushes HEAVIER bullets at FASTER velocity than 9mm. This, coupled with the semi-jacketed hollowpoint of the 357, make it MUCH more likely to reliably expand than the 9mm.

At 1330 fps out of my Ruger and 1260 out of my Kel Tec, expansion hasn't been a problem for me in wet news print with the 115 grain +P load. I shoot Hornady XTPs. I have no doubts about bullet performance, but neither do I expect a death ray from it OR my .45 OR my .357s and .38s. Speaking of .38s, they expand well, too, a 140 grain Speer bullet at under 1000 fps. So why wouldn't a 115 grain 9mm perform?

[schmeky]

If your a bad guy and someone pulls out a .45, it looks like your staring into the entrance of a cave (big bore).

Besides, if you shoot a .45 well, you will never feel "under-gunned", or lacking in the ability to defend yourself or your family.

It's mostly psychological, but then, this is an essential part of self-defense.

I have more 9's than .45's, but if given a situation where I had to actually shoot (at) someone, I would have a .45 in my hand, energy tables/facts/figures be damned.

[DPB]

9mm and .45 are modern. Modern in the sense of "in current use by people and organizations whose lives depend on weapons." Knives were developed a few thousand years ago, but they are still modern tools.

"You don't have to double tap with a .45." That sounds like it came out of the southbound end of a northbound bull.

There is NO combat oriented school or system of instruction, government or otherwise, that teaches that one round will always be enough, with anything. There have been survivors of shootings with 9s, .45s, and all the way up to 00 buck and .50 BMG. If you need a quick stop at close range, you need to keep hitting until the target is no longer a threat.

"Hitting" is another reason for shooting more than once. Believe it or not, the highest trained shooters will sometimes miss or make a less than optimal hit under stress. Don't believe me, watch the videos on TV of the various action shooting national championships. Even the "pros" occasionally miss, and no one is shooting back at them. One of the reasons you fire multiple rounds is because, sometimes, you will miss.

Now, who wants to be the one to stand up and say, "I never miss,"?

[MCgunner]

energy tables/facts/figures be damned

See, that's pretty much the creed of the big bullet guys. ROFLMAO!


I'm a gonna carry this here 40 ounce chunka steel, by golly, cause Jeff Cooper says anything less will get me killed! Facts? Whazzat? What? Gotta pocket carry today? Well, I'll just go un-armed, better that than stoop to carrying less than a .45!

[drw2514]

Okay, I understand that bigger bullet = bigger holes = a good thing. The thing I don't understand is that, for example, the .40 generates a significantly larger amount of muzzle energy which, in my mind, translates into more energy transferred to the target which would lead to increased likelihood of stopping said target. Am I wrong? It wasn't my intent to start a 9mm vs. .45 thread, rather to further my understanding of why the .45 is so popular for reasons that don't see legitimate.

As an added note, I understand the concept that marksmanship is paramount in self defense and that one should use the platform/cartridge combination that one is most comfortable with. In fact, I subscribe to that way of thinking as I have found that I shoot most accurately with a full size 1911 in .45 and said platform/caliber combination will probably be my carry weapon of choice in the future for that very reason (that is to say, I wouldn't choose the .45 over any other cartridge because I think it is more powerful, rather because I shoot the best with it).

[DPB]

Muzzle energy and "energy transfer" are not the mechanisms by which bullets, especially handgun bullets, stop a human.

You have to achieve adequate tissue disruption/destruction. Whether you achieve that through bullet size, expansion, fragmentation or yawing, you have to damage tissue by tearing a hole in it. The bigger hole you tear, and the more vital a piece you tear it in, the better off you are.

Especially that part about tearing holes in vital pieces.

Not to preach at the alter of the 1911, but one of the biggest reasons the .45is so popular is because that's what the 1911 is chambered in. The 1911 was a primary military issue sidearm for 75 odd years, it is still in use by some elite military an police units, and every handgun competition where you are allowed to use a 1911, has been won repeatedly by people using 1911s. There is no other handgun that has been that popular in the U.S. for that long.

[MCgunner]

I think you're right on target. If you'll search the past threads, though, you'll find the .45 disciples don't think anything at all matters except the diameter and weight of the bullet, which is of course rubbish, but that's how they justify the altar they place it on.

But, the +P .45, even in factory persuasion, makes over 500 ft lbs. That's pretty danged hefty for an auto pistol cartridge and certainly enough for a fighting caliber. It's a little more than the +P 9mm is capable of.

I don't worship cartridges, though, and carry what is convenient for concealment, so long as it meets my standards. I am a little skiddish about the performance of .380, it's minimal, though I do carry it if I really need a stealth carry option. It's 200 or so ft lbs doesn't make me warm and fuzzy and a good hollow point which transfers that energy well might not have adequate penetration. I prefer my 9 or my .38, though. I practice quite a bit and know I can shoot what I carry pretty well.

You just opened a big can of argument worms, ya know. I've wasted enough breath on the subject, refuse to be dragged into it again. The big bullet guys are quite vociferous. They'll be posting in volume, I'm sure.

The 1911 was never that popular in civilian use until guys like Cooper started preaching it in the magazines. The civilian world was happily a revolver world until about the 70s when all the propaganda in the rags started having an effect. Then came the wonder nine, and all of a sudden Cooper's enemy wasn't a revolver, but a high cap autoloader. That's where all the 9 vs .45 stuff comes from, magazines and gun writers. And, that's where the momentum/big bullet thing comes from, attempts by big bullet fanatics to dispute the obvious, that the .45 makes not much more power than the 9 and is not any more effective. They both take good shot placement and probably multiple hits, they're both equally weak.

[DPB]

I've shot +P .45, and I'm not sure there's that much of an advantage. It slows your second shot, and in many situations the speed of your second shot will be every bit as important as the power of your first.

When my clothing supports it, I carry a 1911 in .45, because that's what I shoot the best.

I agree that 9mm or .38 is my minimum for primary defensive carry.

And whoever wants to argue that shot placement is secondary to any other factor in human incapacitation, well, that should be interesting.

[MCgunner]

I've shot +P .45, and I'm not sure there's that much of an advantage. It slows your second shot, and in many situations the speed of your second shot will be every bit as important as the power of your first.

Yeah, I agree, and it's excessive. My own .45 defense loads shoot around 400 ft lbs energy, 200 grain Speer hollowpoint at about 950 fps, and that's plenty. They're accurate, reliable, and controllable. I have one load I push past 500 ft lbs. I originally loaded it for when I was out with this crazy guy I know that chases hogs with dogs. I just kept seeing myself with the hog loose comin' after me. :eek: However, I got a Blackhawk .45 Colt I load up for that sort of thing, now, so those hot ACP loads are collecting dust.

[drw2514]

I don't remember who, but I think someone mentioned the .50 GI. I took a look at it and I must say it's a pretty sweet looking gun. And that .50 GI cartridge looks mean as heck:what: . And the fact that you can get the conversion kit to shoot .45s as well makes it even better. Now if I only had the $3,000+ it would take to obtain one...

[Soybomb]

If your a bad guy and someone pulls out a .45, it looks like your staring into the entrance of a cave
http://cyber-byte.com/photos/calibers.gif
You think the bad guy could pick them out at gunpoint?

I think the user holding it might feel more confident if they've been conditioned to believe that 9mm is a pea and .45 is just a step down from a 12ga that they have the best tool at their disposal. But without that conditioning I don't think it would matter to the user. And I certainly don't think the person on the other end will care either way.

[Doggieman]

I don't think that graphic is exactly right, as I'm looking at a spent .38 spl case (essentially the same diameter as a 9mm bullet) alongside a .45 slug right now and there's a big difference. Plus I can almost always tell a 45 vs a 9mm upon sight of the bore. 45 just looks huge. 40s are a little more problematic but if I don't immediately say aha that's a 45 or aha that's a 9, then usually it's a 40.

OF COURSE if you're sticking a gun in someone's face he's not going to be noticing the caliber but I still the above graphic is a fudging the size of the 9 a little.

[SSN Vet]

for my CCW piece...

1. Hitting the target (a vital organ) seems to be the key to real stopping power. This takes practice. Practice cost money. I buy 100 round boxes of 9mm FMJ for $12. This makes practice affordable, so I can do more of it and become a better shooter (as well as have fun:) )

2. Cost.... You can get a number of nice 9mm autos that shoot accurately, feed/eject hollow points trouble free and are nicely packable, NIB for under $400.

If money was not an issue....I'd consider .45, .40 or 10mm.

But, since money is significant issue for me, I chose 9mm.

The best bang for my very limited buck.

[Safety First]

So many varying facts, opinions, preferances, likes, dislikes, supporting arguments all enlightening and confusing..........my personal 'opinion', I am responsible for my decisions and actions. So on this board and a couple of others, I read and studied what others thought and made my decision that for me personally, I had more confidence in the .45ACP than the 9mm I have been carrying. I have few doubts about the 9m"s stopping power, but less doubts about the .45" stopping power. So, even now I am in the process of changing my primary CCW to the larger caliber....but I will keep the 9m for more reasons than I care to go into now....So, to each his own and may we never need to use our weapons for more than personal fun and pleasure.....

[MCgunner]

That graphic sorta puts it all in perspective. :D Da big, huge .45 ain't so huge. Like I say, just 0.096" diameter difference. Or think of it as 96/1000"

More intimidating to look at to me is a loaded revolver with those little nasty hollowpoints staring you in the face. One of them little pills is about to rip through you, chilling thought. :eek: Can't see the ammo in an autoloader.

Then there's the 12 gauge double, the ultimate intimidator. :evil:

[45auto]

Well, a 9mm is 9mm :) and the 45 is 11.4 mm, about 30% larger in diameter.

Total surface area calculations, "I've read", indicate that the 45 has about a 40% larger surface area than the 9mm.

[Seraph]

Just my (not at all original) theory:
I agree with those who suggest that energy transfer is moot, in the realm of reasonable defensive handgun calibers. For the sake of potential lethality and immediate incapacitation, you want to make damaging hits to vital areas, such as the central nervous system. Assuming good enough shot placement, it seems logical to me that a heavier slug, which better retains momentum after striking the surface of the target, will better ensure sufficient penetration to reach the targeted vitals, even through intervening limbs, etc. Given that you probably won't be achieving your very best shot placement on a two-way range, it seems to me that a larger diameter slug, and its potentially larger diameter wound channel, might help to deliver your damage closer to the targeted vital areas, even on a near miss. In a nutshell, it seems obvious to me that a wider wound channel, that fully penetrates the targeted vital area, is to be preferred. Excepting the advent of body armor, I think the .45 ACP is better suited to this task than are the smaller caliber offerings.

[DevLcL]

A 9mm might put you down, but a .45 will keep you down.

Nuff said.

-Dev

[DPB]

"A 9mm might put you down, but a .45 will keep you down.

Nuff said."


Well, there's a logical argument based on legitimate research and quantifiable results, and no doubt the result of endless years of experiments conducted in controlled laboratory conditions.

I'm sure everyone is now convinced, based on the reasoning you have demonstrated.

Someday, I hope to be capable of this level of intellectual expression.

[DevLcL]

Exactly. :D


BTW, Doggieman, im sitting here with a 9mm ctg. and a .45 ctg. and also a quarter. Seems pretty close to me, if not, dead accurate. The .45 does look alot bigger when compared to the 9mm but I think its just an optical illusion.

[DPB]

DevLcL,

Sorry. You had me going. I honestly thought you were serious. Probably because I've heard that line of logic too many time from people who should have known better. Again, my apologies.

I think the biggest optical misrepresentation is when you see the .45 and 9mm from a side shot, not seeing the actual frontal area of the bullet.

Now, if we could find the gun that's as controllable as a .45/9mm and shoots a bullet with the frontal area of the bullet of a quarter, we might be on to something. Of course it would have to hold at least 15 rounds too.

[Seraph]

Assuming that only one shot will be necessary to dispatch an aggressor is a folly equalled only by the folly of assuming that one be able get in multiple shots. Once, a friend was watching me clean my 1911, and he noticed I had one cartridge each of 9mm and .45 sitting on my monitor stand. When I explained to him that the 9mm cartridge was left over from before I had sold my 9mm pistol, he asked me why I'd switched from 9mm (tacticool wundernine) to .45 (ancient technology). I had the barrel in my hand, so I grabbed the 9mm cartridge, and dropped it into the chamber end of the barrel. It fell right through, without even touching the sides, and hit the floor. "Ahh...," said my friend, "...good point."

[Juna]

If money was not an issue....I'd consider .45, .40 or 10mm.
But, since money is significant issue for me, I chose 9mm.
The best bang for my very limited buck.

+1 on that... Limited budget and a relative newbie. Maybe once I consider myself good and have some more money, I'll get myself a nice custom 1911 or an HK USP Tactical in .45ACP. I don't doubt the merits of .45ACP, but I don't pretend to know how they compare to those of the 9mm. The bottom line is... I can't afford .45ACP yet, so I'm sticking with my 9mm until I can do enough hands on research to figure out which one I like/shoot better.

As far as how much damage they do relative to one another, it really is all about shot placement. I've seen people die who were shot one time with a 9mm (and even smaller calibers, for that matter) with good shot placement. So I'm not convinced that smaller calibers are useless. RULE #1: Have a gun (ANY gun--even a .22LR). :D

My CZ 75 is plenty lethal for me, especially since I'm not shooting people who are wearing body armor. It shoots like butter, is accurate as heck, and feeds anything. I don't feel undergunned at all with this baby. When I think about it, it's hard to justify changing something that works. "If it ain't broke...."

Now if I were over in Iraq in combat every day, maybe I'd feel differently. But for a BG breaking into my home, a 9mm bullet (or 16) will stop him. :D

[Dobe]

See image below

Now imagine each of these holes is a pipe leading into gallons of blood enchased by skin. Which one would drain the body faster? Other than an unreliable brain or spinal shot, blood loss is what stops the would-be-murderer. Once enough blood has drained, the brain will loose conscienousness. If you distroy the heart, the liver, or any other organ other than the brain, it will be blood loss that will encapacitate the bad guy. There are situations where shock comes into play, but this can never be counted on when deciding shot placement.

Bigger holes make a difference.

If you don't believe this, then read yourself the mantra of the minor caliber.
With modern ammunition, a 9mm is as good as...
Translatiion: The bullet will get bigger because it will expand. Bigger is better.
Shot placement, Shot Placement, Shot Placement This mantra seems to always come in threes. Yet shot placement with a major caliber and the same with a minor caliber will not result in the same amount of blood loss. I'm assuming for the sake of the argument, there is little chance of a one shot silver bullet placement.
What about the .357 Magnum, this is smaller than the larger 40's and .45's? This is certainly proof that speed kills. But at these high velocities, just how effective can one be with a 4 or 6 inch revolver that spits fire three feet and makes a fast second shot almost imposible.

My opinion is that a 9mm is adequet for self defense. I have a wonderful P7M8 that I hope to be carrying soon, so I don't feel unarmed with a 9mm. Yet, I don't kid myself either. The .45 ACP is a large diameter even if it doesn't open up. If you compare the holes of each at equal penetration, the blood evacuation is faster with the larger hole.

To me the real advantage of the slow moving low pressure .45 ACP is that you get to place a large projectile down range, with ample time for another due to low recoil and little flash in comparison to the such rounds as the 125 gr. JHP .357 Magnum. The advantage to me of the 9mm is either high capacity or platform, which is why I chose the P7M8.

Dobe

The attachment below was taken from a poster above.

You think the bad guy could pick them out at gunpoint?

[MCgunner]

Now if I were over in Iraq in combat every day, maybe I'd feel differently. But for a BG breaking into my home, a 9mm bullet (or 16) will stop him.

If I was in Iraq in combat, I'd rather be sittin' behind Ma Deuce or on the radio directing close air support. ;)

[TTownKid]

This is to answer WHY .45 As it was explained to me is as follows:

WWI Soldiers used a .38 caliber firearm. When in the trenches the enemy would rush the trench and be shot and yet they would continue forward momentum and fall into the trench a lot of times providing the enemy a opportunity to pull a grenade pin while falling into the trench thereby killing our men. In WWII The .45 round was developed so that when the enemy was shot the effect was they would be thrown back by the force of the .45 round away from the trench.

The .45 has always been known for it's punch. This is what is meant.

Modern firearm makers have been able to make them more reliable and accurate than ever before. Springfeild, Kimber, Para, Colt all make carry models that are lightweight and accurate while mainting the punch the .45 is known for. Keep in mind if you ever have reason to pull your weapon your offender is most likely going to be within 25 feet or less of you and 2 to 3 rounds at most will ever be fired by either party. Food for thought!

[TTownKid]

This is to answer WHY .45 As it was explained to me is as follows:

WWI Soldiers used a .38 caliber firearm. When in the trenches the enemy would rush the trench and be shot and yet they would continue forward momentum and fall into the trench a lot of times providing the enemy a opportunity to pull a grenade pin while falling into the trench thereby killing our men. The .45 round was developed so that when the enemy was shot the effect was they would be thrown back by the force of the .45 round away from the trench.

The .45 has always been known for it's punch. This is what is meant.

Modern firearm makers have been able to make them more reliable and accurate than ever before. Springfeild, Kimber, Para, Colt have all made carry models that are lightweight and accurate while mainting the punch the .45 is known for. Keep in mind if you ever have reason to pull your weapon your offender is most likely going to be within 25 feet or less of you and 2 to 3 rounds at most will ever be fired by either party. Food for thought!

[JBinMontana]

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/JB59901/44%20Magnum/16.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/JB59901/44%20Magnum/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

These 2 pictures are all that matters. If the caliber in a +P JHP can penetrate 12 inches of ballistic Gelatin then it will work.

Advantage that 9mm, .357 sig, 40 S&W and 45 ACP is controlability. You can control the recoil better with the lighter rounds and still have the same penetration.

Caliber Breakdown
9mm = 9mm, .357sig
40 Cal
45 ACP

What ever you choose, choose well and aim very well. A Officer Peter Soulis shot a suspect 17 times center mass with 5 extra into the suspects back before the suspect died inside of his vehicle. These amount of rounds from a G22 .40 cal using Ranger XT ammo, just goes to show what can go wrong.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html

I have carried the 9mm, 40 cal and now the .45 ACP because for me, it is just better.

Again choose wisely and practice, practice and then practice some more.

[Mello]

drw2514

Question Why .45?
So what makes the .45 so special? Is the allure of the .45 simply the gun that is chambered for it (I speak of the original, the 1911, and its supreme wonderfulness) or is there some ballistic evidence that I haven't yet stumbled upon that solidifies the .45 as the ultimate handgun self-defense cartridge?

The foregoing posts have pretty much covered the topic of the comparative effectiveness of the 45acp versus the rest.

Limiting the consideration to the 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm and 45acp, I'd argue that there is little difference in the wounding caused by the bullets that any of the 4 cause in a human body depending upon bullet design.

It is the shooter that is the main factor in the outcome of the gunfight. That shooter's alertness, determination, control of his emotions and (not least of all) skill in placing the shot are more important than the round that the shooter brings to the gunfight.

[Fishman777]

Give me a break...

Let's put everything into the proper perspective: The diameter of the 9 mm is .356 inches while the .45 acp is .451 inches. This is less than 1/10 of an inch difference between the two cartridges. Big hole vs. little hole? The "big" hole is only about 25% wider than the "small" hole.

Both cartridges require proper shot placement to be effective. We are talkin' handguns, not shotguns. Both cartridges work if you do your part. Just shoot the defense caliber that you can hit best with. Don't over-think this.

[SJ78]

That was an amazing story on the
police shooting . If 17 rounds of 40
s&w doesnt stop him cold ! Nothing would have in the auto pistol area.
On another note i also agree the 45acp is more fun to range shoot. The 40 imo has too much bite .

[oldFred]

Everyone talks ballistics too much. Yes, the info is important. No, you have only confused some as the photo shows ALL ARE EFFECTIVE in testing. I read this entire thread hoping to see more answers to "Why .45?"

If you ask me, Why .45? I will tell you. As an American my father carried a 1911A1-45 in Korea. He was an expert marksman in both the rifle and pistol. In the 90s he had a little gun shop that he sold all brands/flavors. He contends to this day that a Taurus .357 magnum revolver (with .38 special plinking ability) is all anyone needs for home defense.

In many cases he is right, gets the job done; end of story. However, with me its all about sexiness and lines. Ever seen a pristine 1957 Chevy Bel Air, or a 1933.5 Ford, or a 1970 Boss 429 Mustang, or a 1970 Hemi Barracuda? You get the idea. For me a custom 1911 was my ONLY choice and .45 ACP was as natural as the 426 Hemi in a 1968 Hurst/Hemi Cuda ;)

Am I gun freak? Heavens no. I bought a single 45 handgun this January for home protection. Choices? I had many. Decision? Yes, Taurus PT1911 in stainless. It's a tight, flawless custom 45 that I've read alot of reviews about and come to the conclusion that it's better than a quite a few of the recommended brands I hear frequently about.

Classic lines, mainstream ammo pricing, and oh God!, the feel of the 1911 full size frame. I'm gonna go hold my 1911, I've got myself worked up about it now. ;) Did I mention I was NOT a gun freak...

Have nice day guys/gals and God bless you and yours! :D

[Lonestar.45]

Holy Thread Resurrection!:what:

[Mello]

Soybomb

Quote:
If your a bad guy and someone pulls out a .45, it looks like your staring into the entrance of a cave

You think the bad guy could pick them out at gunpoint?

I think the user holding it might feel more confident if they've been conditioned to believe that 9mm is a pea and .45 is just a step down from a 12ga that they have the best tool at their disposal. But without that conditioning I don't think it would matter to the user. And I certainly don't think the person on the other end will care either way.

I think this photo shows the distinct intimidation factor of a .45 muzzle pointing at you.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb197/farwalker/threeborescopy.jpg?t=1233151117

45acp left, 9mm middle, and 10mm right

[thunder173]

Because they don't make a .46.....

[benderx4]

Because they make the biggest hole ......