[Still Learning]

Finally got my 870 back yesterday. So far I'm really pleased with it but only had time to fire one round of buck (00 Remington, reduced recoil) and one slug (Federal Classic). At 25 yards all 8 buckshot were well inside a standard IDPA target and the slug was off point of aim by about 1/4 inch. I know this was no test but I need advice from experience your favoritie buckshot and slug choices. Money is rather tight right now and I can't afford to buy everything.

BTW, I really like the modifications to this scattergun! Barrel is 18 inches, 'smith installed a Tru-Choke IC and I'm ordering a modified tube today. He also lengthened the forcing cone and set me up with a set of ghost ring sights from Scattergun Technolgies. As an afterthought I replaced the birch stock and forend with a set of Hogue Over Molded replacements. I have not yet added a magazine extension--I might do that today if I can slip away at lunch.

Your thoughts on ammo choices would be appreciated.

[El Tejon]

Still, shotguns are like .22s, they are picky. I have a pair of ST 870s with consecutive serial numbers. One loves Remington #00 buckshot, the other loves Federal #4.

All I can say is you have to go pattern it yourself and find out. Don't forget your white lab coat. "But, honey, this is for SCIENCE!":D

[CMichael]

The question is what do you want to use the shotgun for, i.e. trap, skeet, hunting, target, what?

[Still Learning]

Home defense, critters and targets.

My question was really are there any brands or loads of buckshot that seem to perform better than others? Of course, every firearm has its own preferences but some commercial loads seem to work well in MOST firearms it is used in.

[Feanaro]

Number one buck for home defense. Penetrates more than birdshot, probably won't overpenetrate like double and triple aught buck. I wouldn't use a slug at home. It kills one of the shotguns advantages(spread) and is probably better used at longer ranges.

For general critters, number 6. For larger animals such as deer, double or triple aught buck. Never liked slugs against any animals either...

I don't skeet/target, so I can't say on that.

[Badger Arms]

This discussion has come around and gone several times. I have been continually altering the way I think, but I'm being swayd by the following:

Your choice of home defense load depends mostly on your opinion. The fact is that a round that patterns good in your gun will be just as effective on-target as any other load. This applies from 000 buckshot down to BB or even smaller. The problem with smaller shot is that you will lose penetration. While the shot wad will enter the body of an attacker, rapist, etc. as one large column, it will disperse quickly dumping its energy often before it can penetrate to vital organs or cause a massive enough loss of blood to stop the threat.

There is a school of thought that if you use a shell with a greater pellet count, you are more likely to get a hit on your target. I'm convinced that this is wrong at home defense ranges. At these ranges, the largest pattern you're likely to get is about two or three inches. 000 buck will be about that tight too. Further, a near miss with 000 might allow one pellet to hit. A single 000 pellet can stop someone whereas a dozen No.12 shot are not likely to have the same effect.

Another school of thought holds that you should use 00 buck in cold weather because it is more likely to penetrate clothing. True, to a degree. This is what I use... but for other reasons I'll get into in a minute. In reality, 00 buck and bb both perform about the same on clothing at HD ranges. They act essentially as a slug and have no problem penetrating. Smaller than BB, it starts getting iffy but you are still going to penetrate clothing well.

Here's my opinion of a slug. Slugs are good out to about 100 yards if you have a good load/gun combo, rifled barrel, scope etc. The range diminishes rapidly as you add factors such as adrenaline, low light, target identification, etc. The main problem is this: If you have a Bad Guy who is beyond buckshot range, is he still a threat? Should you still be shooting at him? I've heard of all kinds of fancy, half-thought-out schemes where people have one slug, one buck, one slug, one buck. Some even get fancier and have the first round a 'blank' or less-lethal round. Many will have the first two or three rounds buckshot and then a slug or two. At one time I had a sidesaddle with slugs because I bought into what people were saying. Me, I don't see the functional difference between a slug and Buckshot at Home Defense ranges. For deer hunting, they're fine, but for home defense they don't provide anything but overpenetration. My Buckshot loads will pattern very well and ensure a hit at any range I'd expect to be shooting at.

Some final thoughts on home defense shotguns. The chances are slim that you'll ever need to use the gun to defend yourself, so rest assured of that. If you need to use it, you are very unlikely to have to discharge the shotgun. The most important aspect of the shotgun is the intimidation factor. When a BG hears the slide cycle or the automatic's bolt close, he knows that his life might be coming to an end quite rapidly and violently if he does not halt his criminal intent. If, God forbid, you are forced to use deadly force, the shotgun is easy to point and will stop a life-threatening situation more effectively than any other gun. Besides that, they're dirt cheap and reliable as all getup. And sexy, let's not forget sexy. :)

[Smoke]

Bravo Badger!

Well written. On point. I have nothing to add.

As to the original intent of the post. Use any ammo you can get. Shoot a lot and get comfortable with your weapon.

When you are in a lethal force situation are you gonna stop to unload the birdshot you left in there from the range or are you going to shoot the first round thats available?

I use the same rounds you mentioned, mainly because they are cheap and available and will kill someone/thing just as good as any other.

[Dave McCracken]

Good input so far, here's my take on this well chewed subject.

Back when I could access a Fed LA database, all shotguns were running 98-99% one shot stops, irregardless of load, choke or gauge.

IOW, the load was hitting as a semi solid mass, dumping major energy into the target in a small area. Up to say, 8 yards, there's no difference in effect between 000 pellets made from depleted Uranium rubbed with garlic and 10 shot.

I urge everyone to measure the longest possible shot opp in their abode, add one yard for GPs, and pattern at that distance with divers loads. Go with the tightest patterning, spread is not an advantage in these scenarios.

As for ammo recommendations, each shotgun is a law unto itself as to which good ammo works best.

I've good results with Estate R/R "SWAT" 00, but YMMV.

Slug use is not a great idea for most HD situations, but it's very good for CD crisis management.

Again, it'll take testing to determine which slug works best for you. Eschew the sabots, they work best in fully rifled barrels. Other than that, use whatever you and your 870 like. There's no ineffective 12 gauge slugs.

First, tho, grab the lightest loads you can find and shoot them up any way you can. Shoot at clays, tin cans, rats, steel plates, whatever, just shoot until that 870 feels like a body part instead of a tool. Then go for the heavier stuff. Trust me on this. BA/UU/R....

HTH....

[foghornl]

As has been pointed out, trying to find the best load for your shotty is like finding the best load for your .22LR

In my short-barrel 12 year old Maverick/Mossberg, 3" #4 Buckshot holds pattern the best out to 35 yds. Rem & Fed are a toss-up in this load, while the Win offering is only slightly less tight. 00 & 000 are worthless @35 Yds 1 or 2 holes in a 36" square.

PMC 2-3/4" rifled slugs are very accurate in MY shotty, while the Rem 2-3/4" Sluggers...well, I could do as much damage by removing the slug from the shell and throwing it at the target.

So, as Mr. McCracken suggests, pick some rounds to try, then BA/UU/R

[Still Learning]

Couldn't find it in TFR terms.

Just curious.

[Dave McCracken]

It's my Mantra. Buy Ammo, Use Up, Repeat....

[Dave R]

I have not shot tons of buckshot, but I have developed a STRONG preference for buckshot loads that have a full-length shot cup. i.e. Federal. I believe Estate does, too. Estate buckshot has a pretty good reputation.

Buckshot without a full-length shot cup (i.e. S&B) leaves nasty lead streaks in my bore, which are very hard to clean.

No shot cup usually means faster spreads, too, due to deformed pellets and "flyers'. Full-length shot cup means a tighter group, at least in my shotgun.

If you don't know what a full-length shot cup is....it means all the buckshot is contained in a plastic cup while it goes through the bore. The shot cup separates after it leaves the bore. No shot cup means the shot is dragging on the side of the bore as it moves through the barrel.

[Gordon]

I'll make my preferences simple: Federal copperplated buffered 00 Buck2 3/4" out to 25 yds. Brenneke original style 2 3/4" slugs if you feel the need for slugs OR farther than 25 yds. I don't like to take chances and this eliminates most chances (for the shootee).:D

[Cooter Brown]

You guys don't know what you can really do with buckshot until you try a Wadwizard tube. Better than a $1000 custom barrel job for the price of a choke tube!

[Mannlicher]

I agree with Dave and badger on most points. I have always tried to use the load in a given shotgun that patters best at about 15 yards. Being a man of modest means, thats about the length of the longest hallway in any home I have owned.

I do like a few Breneke slugs, and the stock on my Mossberg holds 4. There is always the chance that the bad guy may be farther than your shot load is effective, and yes, they can shoot at you too, so the ability to reach out is necessary.

These things are all personal choices, and hopefully we base the choice on careful thought regarding our circumstances and how we perceive threats to our family and home. A lot of practice is a wonderful thing, there is no substitute for that.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I don't keep slug on my butt cuff in the HD role, because i load the gun (which is stored empty) with it.


however, the bandolier, which is hanging on the same nail as my shotgun does have five rounds of kent-brenneke KO slugs.

I figure that slugs don't eat anything and do stuff buck doesn't.

[themic]

i like slugs, peresonally. even the dumb non-rifled kind.

however, i live in a tiny apartment with only firewall between me and the people next door. #8 birdshot and 45 ACP 230g JHP for me. do not want to overpenetrate.

[DonGlock26]

My choice is Federal Tactical (low recoil) 00buck. It patterns very tight at 25 yrds compared to standard 00buck. The recoil is less and aids in fast follow-up shots. I tried some out on our dept. range. At 25yrds, all pellets but one were on the torso of the target with the Fed Tac load. A standard Remington 2 3/4 00buck load could onlly put a few pellets on target at that range. The weapon was a 18" barrel 870 Polce type. IMHO- the realistic effective range w/ 00buck is pushed out to 25yrds with this load.

[Corelogik]

Living in a fairly flimsy apartment as I do, I am paranoid about overpenetrating and hitting a neighbor or anything but what I shot at. Therefore I stoke my tube with #8 remington target loads,...

If that fails to get the job done (unlikely) theres a 2" .357 in the nightstand,...

[Badger Arms]

#8 shot will penetrate walls almost as well as buckshot. The major difference is that when the shot column breaks up, they slow down quicker so you might penetrate one or two more wallboards with buckshot. Bottom line is that you're still likely to kill somebody. Do you own a baseball bat?

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

Does anyone cast shotgun slugs these days? As a police weapons instructor teaching the FBI shotgun course to my officers I cast and tested a number of round balls and they were all effective for home defense. We used the largest ones to penetrate vehicles.

For anyone interested in casting from free wheel weights that are now classed as hazardous material and the tire shops are charged to dispose of them so they will give them away free.

I have Saeco 4 cavity round ball bullet molds from .320 to .451 diameters and Thompson Center maxiballs in 45 and 50 caliber for muzzle loaders and all kinds of interesting things can be placed in shotgun wads. They all are new and can make for some interesting testing for home defense and hunting uses.

John Paul
saeco95687@yahoo.com

[musky hunter]

mine like Sluggers and Remington buckshot.

[Poodleshooter]

I cast them Paul. Specifically, the Lee Drive Key 1oz.
How have you used maxiballs in 12ga? What did you sabot them with? I cast for a .50 as well, but haven't found a satisfactory way to securely hold them.
.50 roundballs don't stack well in the shotcups for me. OO is just about right for 3x3x3x3 stacks, and OOO works well in 2x2x2x2 stacks. A cast lead Charleville or Brown Bess ball might make a nice "pumpkin ball" for home defense.
Personally,I've got Federal Premium 3" OO in my Mossberg. The reloads are nice to practice with, but I trust the factory.

[Dr.Rob]

Ok here's my 2¢.

Dave is our expert and while his word is mostly gospel I'll say this.

If you are going to load a slug for any reason, you should use a full power MAX dram (ie not reduced recoil) slug. Sabots and wonderslugs don't add much to accuracy at 50 yards, but at 100 you may see a difference. That extra powder also gives you extra range and a flatter trajectory.

(For the record I get 1.5-2 inch 3 shot groups at 50 yards and can regularly keep all my shot in the black at 100 yards. thats with an 870, 22 inch deer barrel with rifle sights and a rem choke rifled tube using a winchester 1 0z. max dram rifled slug)

For HD I leave the rifled tube in the weapon, load up a 3 inch #2 (turkey load) which has a nice dense patttern, even with the "non choke"

For practice I use at least a 3 dram eq load and heavier if the range allows it.

[rxw]

Sorry... posted in the wrong thread... moving...

-----------------------------------------------------------
Okay... I'm here to learn. From what I've gathered form reading HD posts is the following "general" rules of thumb regarding 12 and 20 gauge:

Typical Spread:
1 inch spread per 1 yard
= 15 inches (1 foot) @ 15 yards
= 25 inches (2 foot) @ 25 yards
= 30 inches (2.5 foot) @ 30 yards
= 45 inches (4 foot) @ 45 yards

Optimal Loads:
- Any buckshot if within 30 feet (000/00 is a real knockdown, but too much penetration for HD, but great for open defense... use Nr. 4 or greater for HD)
- More pellets if outside 30 feet (BB is better)
- Slugs if beyond 45 feet
- For monsters & aliens, several rounds of "depleted Uranium rubbed with garlic" is best.

[Still Learning]

I took El Tejon's advice and donned my white lab coat after hitting every ammo dealer in town. The lab coat, my shoulder and my MasterCard have all took a real beating over the last couple of weeks.

Turns out both the Federal Classic and Premium 00 work really well--15 inches at 25 yards and 9 1/2 to 10 inches at 15 yards. At 15 yards, the cheapo S&B 00 buck is nearly as good and puts more pellets in the center. Go figure. Now I'm waiting to get the modified tube I ordered to see if it performs better.

Patterned some cheap Federal 8 shot, Winchester AA Heavy 7 1/2 shot, and Estate 6 shot this weekend. All patterned poorly out of this shotgun. Am hoping the modified tube will be better.

Thanks again for you help. Finding the right ammo for this shotgun has been challenging but it now replaces my AR 15 as my favorite carry gun on the farm.

[El Tejon]

Still, when it comes to guns, women, or criminal defense, the right answer is always "it depends.":D

Guns & ammo are like golf clubs, it depends on what you want to do.

Careful of tubes. I have seen them become "temporary modifications" in gunskul as they fly down range after a steady diet of buckshot or slugs.:uhoh:

[Still Learning]

El Tejon:

You had mentioned this before so yesterday I talked to the gunsmith who installed my choke tube. He said he had seen the same thing happen but only on choke tubes which were improperly installed and/or fitted. He invited me back to his shop when my new tube is delivered and said he will show me exactly how to install it and check that it does not need adjustment.

Truthfully, once I am finished with my testing and select the brands and type of shells I'll be using for hunting and HD, I expect to fire mainly lighter birdshot loads for practice.

Thanks again for your input.

[Rupe]

I've had amazing results with Brennekes in my 870 and my Winchester loves Copper solids. I also forgot I own a single shot H&R Topper Deluxe that loves Copper Solids too.
I rarely shoot them, but when I do that's the ammo of choice.

[Still Learning]

Just got the Brennekes in yesterday and haven't had a chance to test them because my modified choke tube came in the same day. I spent the day patterning various shot and buck loads and for the most part it is superior to the IC. In fact, with Remington Reduced velocity 00 buck it turned in patterns at 15 yards you could cover with a baseball and at 25 yards you could cover all the holes with a paper plate. This may not be the best HD round but it definitely will fit in while I'm out in the pasture or woods!

If the modified tube works well with slugs I'm going to be in heaven. Still, I doubt it will ever match the 1 1/2 inch groups I got with the IC tube.

Also found an interesting link today if anyone is interested.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

It gives this organization's opinion of the best self defense rounds. Don't know enough about them to know whether or not they are credible.