[Abe]

Please take a look at the picture of the brass from my first batch of reloads. I reloaded 10 total rounds, 5 in Winchester brass, 5 in Magtech brass. All previously fired once by me. The load was a CCI large pistol primer, Sierra 8815 230gr FMJ, and 3.8gr of Bullseye. Loaded on a Dillion 550 with Dillion dies to correct OAL and diameter.

What do you think caused the patch of discoloration on one side of the brass? It was clean brass when I started. The discoloration didn't appear when fired with the original factory load. All rounds went bang as expected. No problems in function. Just the odd color. These were fired in a Kimber Custom II. The primers all looked normal after firing.

Any ideas? Something to be concerned about?

Thanks,

Abe

[Bacchus]

It's difficult to see the details in your pictures, so I have a few questions.

Are those scorch marks and/or is the brass dirty? Can you wipe down the marks with a cloth?

I don't use bullseye. Is it considered a dirty powder?

[Zak Smith]

I think this question has popped up before. My guess is: A normal-power load will produce enough pressure to seal the case walls to the chamber, all the way to the case mouth, and no gas can creep backward. In low-pressure rounds, the case will not expand to fit the chamber, and some burning gas will creep up the case - usually one side.

I see marks like these in my low-power 9x19 and .44RM loads.

-z

[Master Blaster]

My Guess,
you loaded a light target load with bullseye, the dirty patch is some of the gas leaking back because the brass did not fully seal to the chamber. This happens with most all light target loads in any caliber. When you load heavier, towards max pressure, the brass expands more and makes a tighter seal against the chamber walls, so with heavy loads and factory full power ammo you dont get this backwash and the resulting black mark on the case.

I see the same with my light target loads, but since the accuracy is good it is not something to worry over, its normal. If you increased the load of bullseye to max safe load per your manual, this phenomenon would dissapear.

[Abe]

Thanks alot for the prompt replies. The reloads were definitely lighter than the original factory load. They were my first batch so I figured I'd start low and work up. The max load is 5.3gr so I'll goto around 4.4 - 4.5gr on the next batch to boost it up just a bit. Not looking for killer max loads just reliability and accuracy.

Thanks Again,

Abe

[Zak Smith]

Abe,

As far as I know, this kind of fouling due to low-pressure loads doesn't cause a problem. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I've shot several thousand rounds like these and haven't noticed any problems yet, through my .44M and my CZ's (9mm).

I usually avoid light loads with slow powders because they often don't burn completely (like 3N37 in 9x19), but this should not be a problem with Bullseye. For what it's worth, I stopped using Bullseye in 9x19 because it was dirtier and had lots of flash (during daylight) vs. VV-N320 (which is admittedly more expensive).

regards
Zak

[Yo]

Abe,

The sooting of the cases is not at all unusual particularly with a fast burning powder like Bullseye. Same thing happens to me using Titegroup which is otherwise a very clean powder.

While low pressure, causing the mouth not to expand (obturate) may be the issue, more likely what you are seeing is a function of generous chamber dimensions.

I say that because, in an effort to avoid sooting, I loaded my cases to max+ with 4 different powders. While reduced, the sooting remained.

Here's whats going on. 1) during sizing, the case shortens a little bit. 2) With the slightly shorter case, the loaded cartridge actually headspaces on the extractor hook on the right side of the case. 3) this means that the case skews a bit in the horizontal plane, particularly if you have a generous chamber (like in an HK); the case pulls back on the right and moves away from the chamber wall on the left.

I suggest you put an index mark on your cases with a sharpie. If the soot marks are consistently at 9 or 10 o'clock (mine were), the issue is primarily case allignment due to headspacing on the extractor.

There's not much you can do. Some people seat their bullets a little farther out to the case will headspace on the bullet ogive, rather than the extractor. But, if you over do it, the reloaded cartridge won't feed.

[Dr.Who]

Yo, You said the following:

"I say that because, in an effort to avoid sooting, I loaded my cases to max+ with 4 different powders. While reduced, the sooting remained."


I was just a little concerned/confused that you were mixing 4 powders in one case. I thought that was very tabo to do. You can not be exact with your mixture... If your are doing this how are you getting it done? What effect/advantage does it give you? What got you started?

If you are saying that you are loading using 4 different powders in 4 different cases... then Never Mind....

Enjoy...:banghead:

[Yo]

Never mix powders... you got that right.

Sorry for my bad syntax. What I meant to say is that I tried four different powders (one by one) in an effort to eliminate the bad streaking. Everyone said the problem was light charge.

Fine, I got a bunch of manuals and loaded to +P levels (which the HK is rated for.)

Problem remained with AA#5, Titegroup, w231, and Unique.

Then, I indexed my case by drawing a line with a Sharpie on the case head. I alligned each case in the mag before chambering it.

Sure enough--the soot strip was right at 9-10 o'clock on 30 of 30 cases.

I even sent the gun back to the factory thinking that maybe the chamber was out of round. HK said no, it is fine, and that the sooting is not abnormal. FWIW, it is much less noticeable with new factory ammo. But, as I said, when you size your brass in a die, it actually squashes it down a bit and this increase the likelihood that it will headspace on the extractor.

The more generous the chamber, the worse the sooting.

[Dr.Who]

YO,

My faith is re-loading is restored.....


Enjoy....:D

[moxie]

Yo nailed it. Most .45 ACP pistols actually headspace on the extractor, and not the case mouth as is commonly believed. The sooting you've experienced is really ubiquitous in my experience, even in S&W 625s which headspace on the moon clip. Sometime in the near future I'm going to shoot .45 ACPs and .45 ARs out of the same 625 and compare brass to see whether the sooting is comparable or what. I'll even shoot some .45 ACP without moon clips so they will headspace on the ridge in the chambers. This should be an interesting little study.

[BigG]

Most .45 ACP pistols actually headspace on the extractor
I don't know what kind of pistols you are examining but properly made 1911 type 45 autos headspace on the case mouth. The extractor hook is not even near the case rim until recoil occurs. You can see the little dent the extractor hook makes on the tapered part well forward of the case rim of cases fired from my Colts or any proper 1911 type pistol if you don't believe it.

[Johnny Guest]

Not MOST of 'em. I must respectfully disagree with moxie on this point. I think BigG has it right. Proper set up with barrel/standard chamber/breechface/extractor--all at standard dimensions, has the cartridge case base more-or-less in contact with the breechface, but the case mouth in contact with the front of the chamber. I agree, there are some mis-fit pistols in use, but this is the way it SHOULD be. :)

I need to check references tonight, but I think there is supposed to be some .005" space between front of extractor groove and the inner surface of the extractor hook. You can observe the relationship with a disassembled top half of a 1911 pistol. Suggest using a sized case with bullet seated and taper crimped, but WITHOUT primer or powder. With barrel and bushing in place, insert the dummy ctg into the chamber, so that the rim slides between the extractor hook and breech face. Place the barrel into lockup with the case mouth against the chamber mouth. Observe that the inner face of the extractor hook is normally not firmly against the forward edge of the "rim."

I just keep on loading my cal .45 range brass until it is either lost or develops cracks. Being embarassed any time my handloads don't function properly, I guage my loads using an extra barrel. It is easy to note the relationship of the case head to the barrel hood. Even brass fired so many times that the headstamp is barely readable stays within tolerances with this low pressure round.

There ARE pistol/cartridge combinations in which headspacing takes place with the extractor. The best known of these is probably when the Astra 400 pistol (9mm Spanish Largo) is fired with improper ammo. The way the extractor is pivoted, it is possible, though not advisable, to fire 9x19 Parabellum, .380 ACP, and probably other short ctgs in the pistol. Depending upon the particular brass and chamber involved, .38 ACP and .38 Super tend to headspace on their semi-rim, but might well be held by the extractor as well.

Same situation obtains in firing .380 ACP in 9x19 chambers.
CAUTION: While the above substitutions are possible, the use of improper ammo in auto pistol chambers can be quite hazardous, both to shooter and the firearm. This is NOT the same as with revolver cartridges. It is a normal practice to shoot .38 Special in .357 Mags, .44 Special (and even .44 Russian) in .44 Mags, and .45 Scofield in .45 Colt cylinders.

Most seasoned shooters are aware of the above, but I feel obligated to insert this caution for the benefit of the newer participants. :p

Best,
Johnny

[Abe]

I put together a batch at 4.4gr and another smaller batch at 5.0gr (5.3gr is Max) and went to the range this weekend. The soot marks on the brass are now gone with the increased loads.

Thanks for all the replies. I think I am going to really enjoy reloading. It's very interesting to find the right load for your gun.

- Abe

[moxie]

I'm only passing on personal observations of a gazillion 1911s in U.S. military custody. "Properly set up" are terms that don't apply in all cases. Your mileage may vary.

Regarding the longevity of the brass. Yes, this sooty issue has no bearing other than being a nice topic for discussion. I think .45 ACP brass will last just about forever, assuming you are able to hang onto it. Seems like I lose about 15% of it or so at the range, net. Even the NRA range long-handled squeegee dosn't get it all. I guess I've reloaded some of the rounds for the 625, which are a captive audience, over 10 times and can't detect any problems. They keep on perking just like .38 spl brass.