What's a good surrogate for .50BMG?


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Classical Liberal
May 10, 2006, 07:49 AM
Even though it's legal in Sweden, I just cannot afford paying a lot of money ($2000 for the cheapest single-shot version AFAIK) for something that only has niche uses for me (taking out bears and zombies in armored icecream trucks).

So, what's a good surrogate? Maybe AP .308? Also, I'm sure Raufoss makes some rounds in .308 that would be useful for defeating aforementioned living dead in assault vehicles.

Your tips, folks ;)

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benEzra
May 10, 2006, 11:46 AM
AFAIK, Raufoss has never made any of their well-known AP/explosive/incendiary rounds in anything smaller than .50 BMG, and they don't sell them to civilians.

Ballistically, a .338 Lapua Magnum will match the trajectory of a .50 BMG with less recoil. I doubt rifles are much less expensive, though...

Chipperman
May 10, 2006, 12:09 PM
What are the Full-auto laws in Sweden?

How about a .308 or 8mm belt-fed? :evil:

Classical Liberal
May 10, 2006, 12:17 PM
Basically I need something I can shoot into an engine block so it will blow up (or at least not work).

mondocomputerman
May 10, 2006, 02:11 PM
"need" ?? :)

AJAX22
May 10, 2006, 02:17 PM
need?

most rounds 7.62x39 and larger with FMJ mil surp ammo will disable an engine, the 7.62x39 will reliably either punch into the block, or dent the cylinder walls causing the piston to seize on most engines.

if you can get carbide tipped AP ammo it helps out even more, the bullets themselves are legal at least in the us, they become illegal here in california when you load them into cartridges however.

You certainly have varried interests. be carefull lest you incur more scrutiny than you really want.

Classical Liberal
May 10, 2006, 02:27 PM
Well if TSHTF I'm gonna have to disable zombie ninjas in armored icecream trucks.

Mainly I just have an active imagination (fuelled by coffee) ;)

KaceCoyote
May 10, 2006, 02:31 PM
I agree destroying vehicles is an awesome use for the Kalashnikov, especially in the RPK format. 122 grain FMJ and 154gr Wolf hit pretty damn hard and I've used it to rip some old carparts(waterpumps, alternators cycl heads and yes an old Godevil block) apart at 100 yards. The 122 grain will crack cyc walls, and I split the godevil almost into thirds with 5 rounds.

jerkface11
May 10, 2006, 06:57 PM
How about a nice SVD. They make the civie version in 9.3x64 now. :D

mausgun
May 10, 2006, 09:39 PM
if you can get carbide tipped AP ammo it helps out even more, the bullets themselves are legal at least in the us, they become illegal here in california when you load them into cartridges however.


No, they don't. After reading penal code sections 12320, 12321 and 12323, and then calling DOJ enforcement division in Sacramento for specific clarification regarding .30-06 AP ammo/bullets, I can say with absolute confidence that AP ammo for rifles is not illegal in CA, whether as bullets or loaded cartridges, so long as it cannot be used in a handgun (12323(b)) available through normal commercial channels (over the counter).

As long as bad information like this is propagated on the net, we in Kalifornica will never keep any rights fer ourselves fer Chr*****ke.:cuss:

Bartholomew Roberts
May 10, 2006, 10:22 PM
No, they don't. After reading penal code sections 12320, 12321 and 12323, and then calling DOJ enforcement division in Sacramento for specific clarification regarding .30-06 AP ammo/bullets, I can say with absolute confidence that AP ammo for rifles is not illegal in CA, whether as bullets or loaded cartridges, so long as it cannot be used in a handgun (12323(b)) available through normal commercial channels (over the counter).

Is the Thompson Contender available over the counter in CA? If so, there is your .30-06 chambered handgun.

Dark Helmet
May 10, 2006, 10:47 PM
What about a 378 or 30-378 Weatherby?

Deer Hunter
May 10, 2006, 11:07 PM
Before addressing the issue, I just have to state my concern about the legality of this person owning a rifle. I don't know about you guys, but whenever I see threads appear insisting a caliber that is good for two-legged SHTF situations, shooting through engine blocks, general urban havok, ect, I get a bit nervous.

But whatever. Go with a .308.

mausgun
May 11, 2006, 08:57 PM
Is the Thompson Contender available over the counter in CA? If so, there is your .30-06 chambered handgun.
No. TC does not market a 30-06 chambered handgun in CA; it will sell receiver/grip and barrels to attach only to dealers and distributors. The assembled piece is considered a custom assembled firearm, assembled to order and not OTC. It would be OTC only if gun stores in general advertised a 30-06 T/C as available preassembled. They don't as far as I have seen. Not in this state. Most gun storekeepers and counterpersons are too paranoid or uninformed to tempt fate. However, this is a red herring and not relevant.

Consider the following: a direct copy from "California Firearms Laws":

"Handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor means any ammunition, except a shotgun shell or ammunition primarily designed for use in rifles, that is designed primarily to penetrate a body vest or body shield. (Penal Code 12323(b).)"

That exception is pivotal. "..primarily designed for use in rifles." No other section in the penal code contravenes the meaning of that exeption. If you get busted for holding AP rifle ammo or bullets exempt under 12323(b), a prosecutor won't get as far as a preliminary hearing, and you may have a pretty good case for false arrest unless you're stupid and there are other charges. The ammo charge won't stand.

Of course, you can make your own interpretation of it in direct contradiction of the CA DOJ's chief enforcement officer's clarification. But, then, maybe most folks really would like it to be true. As I said, keep uninformed opinion going and elected reps may well hear and act on it.

Terrierman
May 11, 2006, 09:32 PM
40 mm cannon with spent uranium slugs is pretty hard on an engine block. Are those legal in Sweden? And where is my Bikini Team alumnus of recent vintage anyway?

JohnKSa
May 11, 2006, 11:16 PM
Probably your cheapest option is a sturdy rifle chambered in .45/70.

Then you need to check out some of this ammo...

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/500gr.asp

It's not exactly long-range (due to trajectory), but I think it's going to make a hole in most things it hits.

Actually, if you get a laser range finder, you can stretch your shots. The round will travel a long way, but the low velocity makes for a rainbow trajectory.

Or, with the right rifle, you can load your own ammo a bit hotter--if you can stand the recoil.

db_tanker
May 12, 2006, 10:47 AM
Heck, how bout one of those Sharps or Pedersoli rifles in one of the old 50 caliber BP rounds?

I wouldn't mind a 50-110 Winchester Express. :)


D

Medusa
May 12, 2006, 11:20 AM
Then you might need something like this, it is Swedish product, anyway.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dglepm/wes/wes_equipments/84mm_Carl_Gustav.jpg

AJAX22
May 12, 2006, 02:28 PM
I keep hearing mixed things on AP ammo, I don't mean to spread disinformation if I'm wrong. but i was under the impression that AP was LEO in california as was tracer ammo and any bullet that contained anything other than a small amount of copper with the rest being lead.

If I'm wrong, I would love to go buy some for shtf scenario, but I havent found any in cali for sale.

MagnumCaliber357
May 13, 2006, 12:48 AM
Can you say "depleted uranium" :evil: Gosh i wish they were legal :banghead:

mausgun
May 13, 2006, 01:25 AM
I keep hearing mixed things on AP ammo, I don't mean to spread disinformation if I'm wrong. but i was under the impression that AP was LEO in california as was tracer ammo and any bullet that contained anything other than a small amount of copper with the rest being lead.

If I'm wrong, I would love to go buy some for shtf scenario, but I havent found any in cali for sale.

And you won't. Everybody is "under the impression" that rifle AP is illegal in CA. Even out of staters on eBay think so. Most attorneys think so. The DOJ likes it that way, keeps the fear factor high. But the DOJ will confirm the law and 'fess up when asked.

Just read the law as published in http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf), specifically references to sections 12320, 12321 and 12323(b). It's all there if you dig it out.

The Grand Inquisitor
May 13, 2006, 03:44 PM
I think you're looking for a rifle in .338 Lapua Magnum.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/ai_awsm.jpg


.338 Lapua Magnum is accurate out to about 1800 yards and is dead on accurate. In fact, .338 is more popular in Europe than .50 BMG for large caliber accuracy rifles for blowing out engine blocks, and other anti-materiel purposes.

Sako, Tikka, Armalite, and Van Dyke all make really great .338 Lapua Mag rifles and I think they are a great counter to .50 BMG as the Lapua Mag has only a little less distance and range, but just as much power, accuracy, and it is much, much lighter, and the majority of rifles chambered in it are equiped with 3 or 5 round box mags, instead of single shots like .50 BMG's.


Also, you might want to look into a Savage Tactical series rifle in .300 Win Mag. I've got one and I absolutely love it. .300 Win Mag is accurate out past 1000 yards and is more than enough to take out an engine block or vehicle.

MachIVshooter
May 14, 2006, 11:47 AM
Sako, Tikka, Armalite, and Van Dyke all make really great .338 Lapua Mag rifles and I think they are a great counter to .50 BMG as the Lapua Mag has only a little less distance and range, but just as much power, accuracy, and it is much, much lighter, and the majority of rifles chambered in it are equiped with 3 or 5 round box mags, instead of single shots like .50 BMG's.

This statement is mostly accurate, but the .338 Lapua is well below the .50 in regard to power. .338 Lapua generates a bit less than half the energy of a BMG. While it is just as capable as an anti-personnel weapon, it is inferior as an anti-material weapon. The BMG can still punch 1/2" plate at 2000m.

The .338 Lapua is all but identicle to the .338 Ultra mag. While I have never fired the Lapua, I do own a .375 Ultra mag and the recoil fring 300 gr. handloads from my 26" barreled, 9 lb. rifle is downright BRUTAL. My only BMG experience comes from my armalite AR-50 and, between the weight and design of the rifle and the well engineered muzzlebrake, recoil is almost non-existent. However, despite the BMG's potential, you'll not find me humping a 5' long, 34 lb. rifle through the woods while hunting elk.

Hence the reason for the popularity of the .338 Lapua. It gives the sniper an extremely capable long-range weapon at ~1/3 the weight of a BMG rifle (and a lot less noise). You do not need to carry 5,000 ft/lbs to the 2,000 m mark to kill a human.

As to earlier comments regarding what will/won't stop an engine, you have to keep in mind that the engine is not exposed and the bullet must first penetrate sheetmetal, radiators & fans, pulleys, manifolds, pumps, etc. before it even gets to the engine block. If you were to fire dead center at the front of a 1985 Chevy with a small block v-8, you bullet will have to punch through quite a lot of aluminum/brass/cast iron/mild steel before it gets to the timing cover. I would wager that a .30-06 with a 162 gr. AP bullet would have only a marginal chance at accomplishing this. The vehicle will eventually stop due to overheating from coolant loss or the loss of the alternator belt after the accy. drive pulleys are damaged, but that could be miles down the road. For a quick stop, you need to damage the engine itself. Thus the logic behind the BMG as an anti-material weapon.

I would much prefer the BMG to stop a vehicle 1/4 mile from my position.
(of course, any rifle is capable of taking out the driver)

50 Shooter
May 14, 2006, 03:14 PM
A 1/2" plate at 2000 yards??? What's it made out of, tin foil? Sorry, your intentions might be good but my BS meter just pegged out.:rolleyes:

The only thing I would recommend would be the .408 CheyTac as an alternative to the .50 BMG. The .338 Lapua Mag is a close second but the .408 CT wins at longer ranges then both the .338 LM and .50 BMG.

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