[grizz]

I went shooting w/ a pilot friend of mine today. He's also an air marshall, and he said that all Air Marshalls are issued HK compact .40s. We both shot his HK and I gotta say, it's a nice piece, but NOT for everyone. The long pull on the trigger took some getting used to, and I was wondering why Air Marshalls (along with other LE officers) aren't given more freedom in selecting their service carry weapon. I mean, everyone shoots best with some particular gun... Some people have bigger hands, some people prefer a different grip angle, DAO, auto vs. revolver, polymer vs steel, etc, etc. Why not simply have certain criteria that a service pistol must meet IF the officer doesn't choose to carry what everyone else is issued???

Also, why these HK compact .40s? Wouldn't a $400 Springfield XD (or something else) work just as well at 1/2 the price???

[SnakeEater]

It's the government man. Not everyone in the military is wild for the M16 either. How about simply disbanding the air marshalls, along with every other .gov police agency, and let armed civilians be the front line.

[waterhouse]

I would guess that it was done like many government contracts . . .specifications were laid out, entries were tested, and deals were struck.

From an training standpoint, it is probably easier to train a group if everyone uses the exact same gun.

Although we all shoot some guns better than others, with the amount of range time those guys get at training I'm sure they all come out fairly proficient with whatever gun they spent all those hours on the range with.

[Chipperman]

They need a plastic gun so it can go through the detectors. :rolleyes:

[S&W 910]

i thought they used sig 229's

[kirkcdl]

Lowest priced gun that met all operational requirements,that's all...

[BlkHawk73]

Ok, so they each have a different gun...scenario...gun fight breaks out where ever with some dept. one officer/agent is down, the other is out of loaded magazines. Now what? With the issue guns being the same, the magazines are interchangeable with each gun. If one were using brand "X" and the other brand "Y", well...
Also it's a bit eaiser for department armorers dealing with one model.
Dept firearms are chosen based on a number of facyors set forth beforehand. Certain criteria, function and chambering fall within this criteria. The one at the end gets the contract. Price is also a important factor. more so in some departments than others. As far as the 4400 XD...you really think departments and agencies pay the same civilians do? :banghead:

[Matt King]

No offense, but air marshel's carry the sig p229 in .357 sig. Look it up on wikipedia under air marshel, or .357 sig

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Glockman17366]

"No offense, but air marshel's carry the sig p229 in .357 sig. Look it up on wikipedia under air marshel, or .357 sig."

Don't depend on Wilkipedia to be that accurate or that up to date.
It's a cool site, but you've got to take it with a grain of salt.

[MadMercS55]

I do recall reading an article about the .40 USPc with LEM trigger as being on the Air Marshall list. Maybe they allow both now?

[g_gunter]

But its a .45 USPc w/ LEM trigger.

I really like it.

g_gunter

[10-Ring]

To each his own, but remember not only does function play a roll in the selection process, but so does LOWEST BID. Each individual agent is issued a duty weapon, not a voucher to take to the neighborhood sporting goods to get something w/in spec. It's about uniformity w/in the agency.
The USPc, the P2000, the SIG P229 are all fine weapons and hopefully doing their parts in keeping our airways safe.

[isp2605]

"No offense, but air marshel's carry the sig p229 in .357 sig. Look it up on wikipedia under air marshel, or .357 sig
Please correct me if I am wrong."

Sounds like he's talking about armed pilots and not the FAM. Certain pilots can be certified to be armed and receive some training but they aren't FAM. They're still pilots, just armed. HK is what they're issued.

[BigJim45]

There may be a bit of confusion on who carries what on the planes. U.S. Air Marshalls do indeed carry Sig P229's in 357 Sig caliber. However Federal Flight Deck Officers (these are pilots who have been authorized to carry after a long process) carry the HK USP compact in .40 S&W with the L.E.M. trigger module.
Not sure the in the process used to select the HK for the FFDO's but I am sure the simple ease of use of the gun was a big part of the decision process.

[jungle]

BigJim45 got it right.

Federal agencies also like to trade in their weapons every 5-10 years so if you don't like what they use now, just wait a while.

[LoadedDrum]

+2 for what BigJim45 said.

I met a FFDO at the range two years ago, and he had an HK as described. The Air Marshall I met this year has a Sig.

[grizz]

Ah, sorry, BigJim is right, the Delta pilot I was shooting pins with was a Federal Flight Deck Officer and had a HK USP compact in .40 S&W with the L.E.M. trigger. He was an ok shot w/ it, but much better w/ his Kimber.

[Boats]

O.P.M.

Other peoples' money.

[RustyShackelford]

First off:
It's M-A-R-S-H-A-L, Federal Air Marshal(FAM)

Not Marshel Marshell or Marshall, if that's hard for you just put FAM, :cuss:

The FAMs use the HK USP .40s because they have the new LEM(Law Enforcement Modification) trigger system. This is a light smooth DA only trigger pull that is safe and better than most SA(single action) or striker fired designs. I have also heard that some DHS(Dept of Homeland Security) FAMs train and/or carry SIGarms P-229 .40s. The DHS got a big contract for the DAK(Double Action-Kessler) SIG models. The DAK trigger system is like the HK/LEM trigger type pistols. The K is for Kessler the German engineer who designed the DAK firing system for SIGarms. I've read in major US gun magazines that many US law enforcement agencies may start to issue the HK P-2000s in .40S&W. The SIGarms DAK P-229s are very well made but I would want a HK P-2000. I'm left handed so the P-2000's ambi features(slide/mag release/etc) could be good for LE/duty use.

The airline/flight deck officer program(that I think is what your shooting buddy is a part of not as a sworn FAM) issues the HK USP .40 to my knowledge but this could change in the near future.

For details see www.usajobs.opm.gov www.dhs.gov and/or www.faa.gov .

Rusty S
PS: I'm not a DHS employee or FAM :D

[adolphuscusins]

One of my friends is a marshal, and he has a 229 sig in .357. I also don't doubt that different stations issue their agents different weapons.

[Jo Mama]

FAM's use sig 229 in .357sig, Da/SA no DAK triggers, at least not on the guns I've seen. The reason behind it I heard was because the head of the FAM program was a former Secret Service bigwig and they used Sigs, of what caliber I do not know. No real science just familiarity with the weapon system.

[RustyShackelford]

I do stand corrected. The new FAMs are issued the .357SIG pistols but the Federal Flight Deck Officers(the aircrews/pilots) are issued/use the .40S&W USP pistols.

Do any members know if FAMs use Magsafe Glaser or the "Extreme Shock" Air Freedom loads in .357SIG?

I'd think fragmented rounds would be standard issue but they can cost a lot of $$$. ;)

www.extremeshockusa.com

www.magsafe.com

www.corbon.com

[Old Dog]

My take is that someone halfway intelligent in the procurement process discovered that the HK Compact was a good compromise pistol to issue folks who were not all necessarily dedicated pistoleros.

Having worked in the federal gov't, and now for a state, I always cringe a little when I hear people authoritatively say things such as:
not only does function play a roll in the selection process, but so does LOWEST BID.
or
Lowest priced gun that met all operational requirements,that's all...
I'm sure that happens (and probably more on the local level), but it doesn't seem to be the rule everywhere. Were that the case, probably a lot more armed federal and state law enforcement agencies around would be sporting Glocks (not only does Glock offer an incredible price to departments, it buys back the departments' previously issued handguns), revolvers, XDs, Taurus 24/7s or S&W M&Ps.

My department issues the HK USP-9, and I can tell you that's not because of the price (same goes for our rifles and carbines: Colt Match Target HBARS and M-4s). While I'm sure HK gives a nice price to agencies shopping for new pistols (far better than you or I could get), the HKs are still about the priciest (non-1911) production semiautos out there, by far.

[isp2605]

"Having worked in the federal gov't, and now for a state, I always cringe a little when I hear people authoritatively say things such as:
Quote:
not only does function play a roll in the selection process, but so does LOWEST BID. "

Cringe if you like, but there's often more than a bit of truth to it. When I was in the USAF I worked in contracting and saw where "lowest bid" often played a role in almost every contract I worked.
I was in charge of R&D (state level LE agency) when we went to Glock. We did testing of 15 different makes and models over a period of about 18 months. The top 3 in our testing, in order, were SIG, S&W, and Glock. Bids were then received from those companies for 2500 guns, holsters, and 750 rds per person transition training ammo with our S&W 5904/6904 in on trade. Glock came in at a few dollars over $1/4 mil. S&W was a bit over $1/2 mil. SIG was a bit over $1 mil. Even tho Glock was # 3 in our tests, "lowest bid" played the deciding role in the selection process and it was the lowest priced gun that met operational requirements.
BTW, all companies will play the game when trying to get a contract. S&W did it for years. We were issued S&W autos for 32 yrs. S&W came thru was some very competitive bids when we transitioned to newer guns. Usually than involved even swap old guns for new at little or no cost. When I was involved in our transition to Glock a local PD of about 300 officers put bids to replace their aging 6906s. SIG had just come out with the 357 SIG round and it was just laying there. SIG made the PD a heck of an offer. For the PD's old guns SIG would give the PD new SIGs in 357, all new leather, training ammo, and duty ammo, and a promise that if the 357 round didn't pick up after 2 yrs then SIG would replace the guns with .40s at no cost.
As an aside, 21 of the 49 SP/HP agencies are currently issuing Glock. 18 are issuing SIGs. S&W, Beretta, and H&K make up the other 10 states.
Whether it be guns, squad cars, uniforms, radios, whatever, "lowest priced that met all operational requirements" is the deciding factor. In fact, not taking lowest price that meets all operational requirements can get an administrator time in front of a grand jury, legislative/congressional committee, or the feds explaining why lowest bid wasn't accepted even tho the bidder met all operational requirements. There are procurement laws that have to be complied with. Having been closely involved in procurement processes for both the military and a state agency there's no way on earth I was going to approve a purchase of anything, big or small, where a lowest bid wasn't accepted and the bidder met the requirements. People go to jail for violating state and federal procurement laws.

[gudel]

why the HK hate, guy? maybe they prefer something that is reliable.

[Edmond]

Federal agencies also like to trade in their weapons every 5-10 years so if you don't like what they use now, just wait a while.

It seems like the local agencies do that as well with a lot of equipment. Looking around the area I've lived at for 15 years, I see that the squads have gone from Chevy to Ford and now to Dodge.

Are LE agencies big money for the companies? I mean, they can't possibly charge what they charge us for the guns and expect to get the contracts so they have to give a significant quantity cut.

[isp2605]

"Are LE agencies big money for the companies? I mean, they can't possibly charge what they charge us for the guns and expect to get the contracts so they have to give a significant quantity cut"

Big money in the form of advertisement. People will buy what their police carry. Using the cars as an example - when Chevy came out with the 1991 Chevy Impalas it was a dude. No one was buying it. Chevy took an aggressive marketing approach and was cutting heck of deals to LE, cab companies, and large fleets just to get the 91 out there. Talking to Chevy execs at the time they admitted that going from the boxy Impalas to the whale was too radical of a change for the market. They hoped that by getting the 91 out there in fleets where the public could see it more often then the public would start buying. Changing cars is a bit different tho than changing guns. Body styles change, drive trains change, sizes differ, engines change. So every year a manufacture will change styling or structure a bit which might be OK with the Mom and Pop consumer but which doesn't work for a LE squad.
Same with guns. Find what a large agency near you carries and that make/model will have some sales appeal in the local market. That's why those companies can deeply discount to LE, it's advertisement. You'll see it on this forum and others when talking about guns or ammo. How many times have you read someone post that they carry such and such ammo because "X" PD carries it, or that this or that gun must be good because "Z" agencies issues it. It's all about marketing.

[nyresq]

Do any members know if FAMs use Magsafe Glaser or the "Extreme Shock" Air Freedom loads in .357SIG?

gold dot 125gr hollow point.... ammo #53918

at least thats what it says on the end of the box I got last time I was at the ... uh, I mean the last time A FRIEND OF MINE was at the range for quals...

All FAMs carry the sig P229 in .357sig and FFDOs carry the usp in 40S&W. or at least thats what MY FRIEND says...:scrutiny:

[sithanas]

Why would they issue high(er) velocity ammunition to people expected to be shooting in planes? :what:

[nyresq]

the entire "tiny hole rips open the side of the plane" myth is just that... a myth.
Its a BS movie-hollywood thing. You can remove a window and the plane will not explosively decompress. It just doesn't happen that way.

more hollywood crap that people believe.


as for the choice by the FAM service, my guess would be it had more to do with the fact USSS was issued it when the post 9/11 increase of the FAMs happened. Most of the higher ups came from the USSS and sig made them a good deal on the guns, and speer made a slightly reduced recoil load for them... just from what I have heard FROM MY FRIENDS...;)

[c_yeager]

I think that H&K probably has one of the best government marketing campaigns in the business, comparable only to Glock.

Out of curiosity, do the FFDOs get issued a pistol, or are they required to purchase their own? They are essentially private citizens who have obtained a government permission to carry on an airliner that they are piloting, arent they?

[nyresq]

it is issued by the govt, and they (when on duty inside the confines of the cockpit) are considered federal law enforcement officers. however outside the cockpit any action they take would be that of an ordinary citizen with no LE powers. They are trying to get that changed, but they have a long hard fight as they have no formal LE training and only a week of schooling to qual as an FFDO. They are not authirized to carry the weapon as a CCW outside of their FFDO duties. if they carry its on a personal CCW permit and not their FFDO creds. as an FFDO they are supposed to carry it in a bag until they are inside the plane and the cockpit is secured.

but what people do on their own time is their business.
I personally think it is more dangerous to carry a handgun in a bag with no other handgun for protection then it is to just CCW....

someone grabs the bag off your shoulder and takes off... now they have a gun and you have nothing...
one of the reasons I think women carrying in a purse is stupid and should be outlawed for ccw...