30-30 question


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SSN Vet
May 12, 2006, 11:48 AM
Disclaimer....I don't know a lot about rifles

Question....after reading threads about .308 vs. 30-06 vs. 300WM vs. 7mm and such, I was wondering if 30-30 fell off the face of the earth?

Is there a good "rifle 101" thread like on the shotgun forum?

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ball3006
May 12, 2006, 11:58 AM
and old news. Nothing exciting about a lever action rifle that has done a good job killing game since then. Those other two pairings are old hat too......why would a "rifle 101" post be in the shotgun forum........chris3

SSN Vet
May 12, 2006, 12:13 PM
the shotgun forum has some great "shotgun 101" threads..

but I think I found what I was looking for....thanks.

If I understand correctly.....

People who want a lever action buy either a 30-30, or a hand gun cartridge gun like a .357 Mag, .44mag, or .45

If you don't specifically want lever action.....30-06 or .308 or the others are all much higher powered and therefore rule the roost.

Is this the case.

Deer Hunter
May 12, 2006, 12:16 PM
A 30-30 will kill with the best of them. I never feel underpowered or outgunned with my old Marlin 336.

Too bad the ammo price is higher than the rest of my guns.

roscoe
May 12, 2006, 01:29 PM
You can get lever actions in the 'pointy' calibers, like .308, but they are not the traditional-looking Winchester style because the bullets must sit on top of each other rather than end-to-end like you can with 30-30 and pistol calibers. The Browning BLR, Winchester 88, and Savage 99 are all much loved lever guns in 'pointy' calibers.

Recently Hornady has come out with a 30-30 round that has a polymer point and is suposed to be good out to 300 yards. That is a long way.

Desk Jockey
May 12, 2006, 02:03 PM
IMO, it all depends on what you're hunting or where you're hunting it.

If I'm hunting deer and don't expect to shoot over 200 yards, my .30-30 will do just fine. If I'm hunting deer and expect to shoot up to 300 yards, I want more power.

If I'm hunting elk, I'd consider the .30-30, but only inside 100 yards. Maybe a touch longer with the new Hornady ammo. But I'd much rather use a .30-06 or larger for elk, especially if I expect to shoot up to 300 yards.

When I was a kid in PA, I shot a lot of groundhogs (and a few deer) with a Model 94 .30-30. I still think that a lever-action .30-30 is just a heck of a lot of fun to carry and shoot. But I'd like to pick to up a Model 88 .308 to fill the gap between my .30-30 and my .300 WSM.

There's a lot of useful general info on Chuck Hawk's pages: http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm

hoghunting
May 12, 2006, 05:35 PM
There's nothing wrong with the 30/30. You can only write so much about a subject, and after 100 years, its all been covered. I used a Marlin 336 for years on deer and hogs before I was convinced by articles that I needed more power. Now I do use more power, but I know the 30/30 will do the job if I use it.

Vern Humphrey
May 12, 2006, 06:50 PM
I carry a .30-30 Winchester on my saddle. When I was a boy on the Circle H ranch, I used to kill deer that way -- ride up on them while looking for cattle, pile off the horse, and nail one. The only time I ever killed two deer with one bullet was with a .30-30.

Frankly, the .30-30 is hard to beat. I contacted Hornady and was told that LeveRevolution bullets will not be available to handloaders until 2007. I'm waiting with bated breath.:D

The .30-30 has some great assets. First of all, the rifles are not that expensive. Next, theyr'e not that hard to shoot -- lots of people have .300 Mags and .338s and never shoot them because of the recoil. The .30-30 just begs to be shot. And as a handloader, the cost of store-boughten ammo isn't a consideration with me.

Finally, the rifle is light and handy -- just the thing to slip in a saddle boot, or pick up when going out the door.

_N4Z_
May 12, 2006, 08:09 PM
Not a big fan of the 30/30 lately. Been shooting different brands and wieghts thru my Marlin336 (150gr, 170gr, Winchester, Remington) and best group it's made at 100 yards rested was around 6+ inches... :barf: Now 6" is probly good nuff to down a deer, but my AK in 7.62x39 makes tighter groups with inexpensive Wolf ammo, and that bothers me.

Think it may be Marlins highly touted micro-groove rifling poo though that is in the barrel of this particular rifle. Have tried tightening the band and screws, etc. No diff.

Not tried the new tipped Honaday stuff in it, but at a dollar a shot I think I'll pass.

Will probobly sell it and use the money for a milsurp K31 or Mauser.

ECVMatt
May 13, 2006, 01:47 AM
I have a bunch of old Marlins and they shoot great. I think most new shooters are better served with a .30/30 than any magnum out there. I can honestly only shoot deer at less than 150 with the 336, but I really don't shoot much further than that anyways.

I am sorta sickened/saddened by all these short/fat laser range finder scope guns that seem to be the rage nowadays. I have nothing against progress, but for a new shooter it encourages too much range. It is better to learn how to stalk than work a laser.

I say get the .30/30 and learn how to shoot it. Eventually you will want something more and you will be ready to use it correctly.

The .30/30 was the original short magnum ( in 1895) and still works great today.

Matt

rangerruck
May 13, 2006, 03:27 AM
nothing bad about the 30 30 , it is just what it is , a hunting round for deer size game out to 150 or so yds.

qajaq59
May 13, 2006, 08:23 AM
My 30-30 goes to the range with me every trip, along with my other rifles. I might leave one gun or another behind but never the 30-30. However I rarely see another one until just before hunting season starts. Then suddenly the line is filled with them, so I guess that tells the story. They aren't new or flashy but obviously when it comes to knocking down deer or hogs they certainly are useful.

Nhsport
May 13, 2006, 10:23 AM
N4Z
You should be getting way better groups (at least 1/2 of your 6+").
Don't know your level of experience so I will try to cover all bases.

Set aside your handloads for the time being,lets use some cheep factory ammo and try to find out what is what.
Go to wallmart or Kmart or whatever cheep discount house you have handy and buy a stack of cheep winchester or remington, This will likely be 170gr and should cost you about $10 a box. (get 3 or four boxes) The point is we want to compare group sizes as we try different stuff. The standard 170gr stuff will usually shoot ok to good in a rifle that isn't somehow messed up.
Get some good copper solvent,something more potent than hoppes. I like both Sweets 7.62 or Butches bore shine. Follow the directions,scrub the bejeesus out of it with a new brush,will likely require some soaking.
Take a magnifiying glass and a strong light and study the end of the barrel (front end) ,is there any visable wear or nicks or gouges right at the end? If the gun has been cleaned improperly or dropped this might be the case. That last 1/16" of the end of the barrel is by far the most importaint. Bad cases might need to have the crown recut or the barrel counterbored (both need a trip to the gunsmith). I had a real old,real abused,win 94 in 32 win sp that shot worse than your 6+" . I took a mouse ball,(the rubber coated ball bearing from a computer mouse) cut the rubber off and coated it with J+B bore paste. I then used it to polish the crown untill I had a bright clean ring about a 16th inch wide that looked clean and uniform with a magnifying glass.
Gun went from 6-8" 100yd groups to about 3" . That is about the best I can do with Iron sights and my eyes.
Eyes-- how are yours? Have you had someone else try to shoot this gun? If some snotnosed 24yo kid (with 24yo eyes)can get good groups out of this gun I would suggest a peep sight. Your Marlin likely has the mount holes drilled and tapped (unless it is 30+ years old) so go to brownells or midway and all you need is the sight and a set of screwdrivers. Some will sugest a scope but I personally think that is the wrong way to go with a lever gun ,The peep sight will work as well or better than the scope and the peep will be no more expensive than the scope mount alone.
Is the trigger buggered up? It doesn't need to be super light but should be fairly crisp. Most Marlin triggers I have fingered are fine to very fine,your gunsmith should be able to clean it up for a reasonable price.
Basic factory ammo.
Heavy duty cleaning.
Decent sights (or good eyesight and factory sights)
Check of barrel crown and trigger.

If going thru this long post gets you down to the 3" range (@100yds) then the next level I would suggest beter (higher priced) ammo or reloads and you might find some ammo the gun likes that will give you 1 1/2" or there abouts.

The 1 1/2" group might remain a wish but most Marlins and Winchesters will settle into the 3" range unless they are messes up .
Good luck!

pre'64 Dan
May 13, 2006, 11:21 AM
N4Z, 6+ inch groups? I can see why that would bother you. I think Ray Charles could have shot that. what is the matter with your gun? You deffinatly should not be shooting at deer with it. To great a chance on a bad wound for the animal. Sounds like a .32 special with .30-.30 ammo:what:

The Real Hawkeye
May 13, 2006, 12:02 PM
The .30-30 is significantly less powerful than the .30-06, but more than enough for most big game hunting, especially now that they are loading them with modern pointed bullets which will not detonate in a tubular mag. If your hunting is within 200 yards, and deer and black bear are the largest game you might be after, the .30-30 in a lever action will serve you well. If you want longer range effectiveness and larger animals, the .30-06 is much more appropriate, and they are typically in a bolt action rifle for sporting purposes.

Onmilo
May 13, 2006, 01:02 PM
There is nothing wrong with the thirty thirty except it can be a pain to reload.
The cases are fairly thin and the long neck and gentle shoulder angle can cause the case to collapse if it is not perfectly centered in the reloading dies during the upstroke.
When loaded with spire point .30 caliber bullets, and a decent powder is chosen, and the round is fired in a single shot or bolt rifle,(Don't load spire points in a tube magazine, ever, no matter what anybody tells you about it being OK, don't do it.), anyway, you can bring the .30/30 Winchester to the lower level of .30/06-.308 Ballistics.

Old Time Hunter
May 13, 2006, 02:08 PM
I find the 30-30 to be the one of most accurate open sight rifles to a 100yards, just reading this and looking at two NRA targets that I shot with both of my 30-30's. One '94 AE XTR Win(pre-safety) and a Glenfield 30A(cheap 336). Both open sights...same ammo (170gr Cor-Lokt, $3.89 a box of 20 bought two cases for less than $80 bucks), Winchester group (10 rounds) five in the 10, none outside the 9. Glenfield group (10 rounds) three in the 10, 5 within the 9, and two flyers (still within a 4" group).

Deer Hunter
May 13, 2006, 02:32 PM
6" groups are pretty out there, but I can't say much. I don't shoot my 30-30 out to 100 yards, because I never hunt in a place where shots are going to be that long. I usually set out 12 gauge shells (already shout out of my coach gun) on a 2x4 board at about 40 to 45 steps and shoot them off. Best I've done with those is shot 5 shells off with 6 bullets. I was kicking myself for missing that one shot. Aimed a bit too high. :neener:

_N4Z_
May 13, 2006, 10:57 PM
well my experience with the 30/30 is limited to nil.

my experience shooting centerfire rifles began in 1986 with one of uncle sam's m16a1's on the east brm range of ft. sill. at that time i could hit man size targets at 300 meters with open sights, no problem. have used various other rifles of different caliber since, and this one is my first problem child.

i know how to sight a weapon in, how to clean one (hopefully without causing unwanted damage), and my vision is still fairly good.

this particular rifle was new in 2005 and has seen less than 40 rounds prior to the last 3 months. it is in this last three months that I have had a place to fire out to 100 and greater yards. it is within this last 3 months that i've discovered the thing is horribly inaccurate. as stated in my post above i've been trying different weights and brands of factory ammo. my AK clone with wolf makes much tighter groups at 100 yards, again with open sights. i do not rely on any optics.

i will inspect the bore as you suggest Nhsport, but i strongly suspect a lemon. i also will more than likely sell it off for something else. do appreciate the input though.

_N4Z_
May 14, 2006, 11:08 AM
well looks like i need to eat some crow. apparently knowing how to clean a weapon and actually getting the job done correctly are two different matza balls.

close inspection of the business end of the 336 barrel revealed generous amounts of "copper" colored poo on the rifling. hit it with some power shot copper solvent and BAMMO! pretty little green/blue patches coming out the other end. :eek: took some time soakin' and scrubbin', all better now.

i shall take the thing back to the range here in the near future to see if those 6"+ groups shrink down in size some.

Mannlicher
May 14, 2006, 12:59 PM
N4Z, do you shoot that size groups with all your rifles? I have never heard of a 336 that was that bad. My 336Y with 16 inch barrel will shoot better than 2" at 100 yards,all day long off the bench, with my 170 grain handloads.

_N4Z_
May 14, 2006, 01:02 PM
my AK clone with wolf makes much tighter groups at 100 yards

as in sub 4", and this is an AK with cheap ammo. usually around 3, but once i managed a 3 shot clover leaf at that range with that same ak. much luck was involved that time but....



the answer to your question would be no.

and come to think of it, i can get better groups out of my rem870 improved cyl with slugs at that range.

rangerruck
May 15, 2006, 01:13 AM
you can use the new leverolution rounds in 3030, they give you an extra 100 yds of reach.

Hokkmike
May 15, 2006, 10:15 AM
I would never consider a 30/30 as a new gun, nor would I recommend it UNLESS it came in a rifle of historical distinction. It was OK for its time but there are so many better cartridges out there now.

ScottsGT
May 15, 2006, 02:29 PM
I had been shootin' with my Mil. Surplus peep sights for a while and then tried out my new 336 last fall. It took me about 3 boxes of ammo to finally start hitting the clay pigeons at 50 yards, (on the ground, of course) but once I figured out how to use those sights, I was deadly with the 336. And now I'm about to buy a scope for it :rolleyes: Hey, I need help in low light at dusk this hunting season. But on a brighter note, I bought a Winchester .30-30 to use iron sights with on morning hunts :D

_N4Z_
May 15, 2006, 09:10 PM
and crow i shall now eat.

just got back from the range after having hit the barrel with some pro shot copper solvent.

post cruddy blue nasty swabs - survey says....


At 110 yards, Marlin 336W 30/30, with the stock open sights--> 3 shot groups shrank from 6+ inches to 1.75 inches. BAM, the bugger was just dirty. It would seem i have been sorely remiss in my care of this rifle, atleast as far as getting the copper build up out.

I thank Nhsport for this special spoon feeding and will now go sit in the corner with my dunce hat on. :p

Hikingman
May 16, 2006, 02:42 AM
The used gun stores have lots of 30-30 rifles.

One day, I felt it was time to scratch the itch, and find a decent replacement for a 336CS, sold ten years ago. Times were tough, and it went.

In early '04 - went to Kentucky - because 'tons of guys pawn them after deer season, and don't claim them', that's a quote from the store owner. Bought one!

Checked two stores the first day; bought a std. 'used' 336 model, made in 1971. The Marlin is now over two years old (to me), and she's a very sweet looking 35 year-old, beautiful, preserved bluing, a scope, 'two' noticeable scratches on the wood (big deal, right?), ext. hammer (tab extends right for easy movement) and gold trigger (a fad). Why not get one of these used, side-ejecting, old gems without the new cross-bolt safety? The aim was adding a safety element if dropped with one in the chamber. And, after millions made without the feature, huh!

This only cost me $215 before tax, no transfer fee. BTW, those hunters likely aren't looking for their 2006 deer rifle, yet! Now's your chance!

Vern, thanks for contacting Hornady about the 2007 release date on those bullets...I've got plenty of 150 and 170 speer bullets to handload til then.

Cosmoline
May 16, 2006, 03:26 AM
There is nothing wrong with the thirty thirty except it can be a pain to reload.
The cases are fairly thin and the long neck and gentle shoulder angle can cause the case to collapse if it is not perfectly centered in the reloading dies during the upstroke.

Meh. I've been handloading weird European cartridges for many years now and just started the .30-30. I've been amazed by how astonishingly simple and trouble-free it is :D The case problems you mention are related to the press, not the cartridge. There is nothing thin about the .30-30 case compared with other cases. You pour 30 or so grains of 3031 in there and drop a FN round on top. There you go. No weird caliber variations, no odd differences in case size from nation to nation. No strangely shallow primer pockets. No Finnish, Russian or Austro-Hungarian instructions to find or read. Plus, the bullets and loaded ammo for the .30-30 have had all their kinks worked out in the past 110 years. That ultra super hyper short magnum's bullet may or may not function. But the .30-30 will work and work extremely well.

I think every new American shooter should have to qualify on a .30-30 levergun WITHOUT A SCOPE before being allowed to buy other firearms.

The Real Hawkeye
May 16, 2006, 08:41 AM
I think every new American shooter should have to qualify on a .30-30 levergun WITHOUT A SCOPE before being allowed to buy other firearms.Roger that.

ScottsGT
May 16, 2006, 05:02 PM
and crow i shall now eat.

just got back from the range after having hit the barrel with some pro shot copper solvent.

post cruddy blue nasty swabs - survey says....


At 110 yards, Marlin 336W 30/30, with the stock open sights--> 3 shot groups shrank from 6+ inches to 1.75 inches. BAM, the bugger was just dirty. It would seem i have been sorely remiss in my care of this rifle, atleast as far as getting the copper build up out.

I thank Nhsport for this special spoon feeding and will now go sit in the corner with my dunce hat on.

Just goes to show, no matter how much experience one has in any field, it's always good to try some new advise sometimes!
You are planning on keeping that .30-30 now, aren't you?? :evil:

Vern Humphrey
May 16, 2006, 05:20 PM
I think every new American shooter should have to qualify on a .30-30 levergun WITHOUT A SCOPE before being allowed to buy other firearms.

On horseback. At a hand gallop.:D

JesseL
May 16, 2006, 06:19 PM
If Marlin, Rossi, and whoever resurects Wincheser started chamering rifles for 307 Winchester again, and if Hornady could be convinced to start producing these:
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/EDrt_050306rd3B.jpg
; we might have a viable replacement for the 30-30. Until that day comes 30-30 will continue to have a niche with shooters that want classic rifles in an adequate caliber.

unspellable
May 16, 2006, 08:02 PM
In the interests of plugging the performance gap between the 30-30 and the 32 Special I am developing a 31-30 wildcat. This chambering promises to be a death ray for everything from prairie dogs at 300 yards to cape buffalo at 3 yards.

Stay tuned for the latest news on this wonderful new round ...

_N4Z_
May 16, 2006, 10:41 PM
ScottsG said Just goes to show, no matter how much experience one has in any field, it's always good to try some new advise sometimes!
You are planning on keeping that .30-30 now, aren't you??

Maybe. It is a good thing that the accuracy was still there just hidden under a coating of copper poo.

BUT...

When I cleaned it after this last shoot I noticed the copper fouling was back. Nowhere near as bad but back just the same. I only put 9 rounds thru it at the range.... :confused: I find it a bit strange that 9 rounds would deposit enuff that I could see it again in the sunlight inside the business end of the barrel.

Is this a "micro-groove" thing? Are the micro grooves more susceptible to copper fouling from jacketed rounds? They are quite a bit shallower than standard (ballard?) rifling. Anybody have any ideas on this?

Cosmoline
May 17, 2006, 12:55 AM
There's always some copper in the bore. Don't worry about it, it means nothing.

Terrierman
May 17, 2006, 10:12 AM
This brings to light a fairly basic question I've been wondering about too re: copper removal. Cosmoline makes the point there's always copper in the bore, says don't worry about it. And for the most part, I don't worry about it either. But at some point, as illustrated in this thread, coppering of the bore affects accuracy. So some copper removal is needed now and again.

When I clean any of my centerfires and use copper solvent after the normal bore cleaning, I always get the blue patches. It takes A LOT of cleaning cycles to remove all of the copper. And it takes a long time too, due to the soak time for the solvent needed to do it's job (I'm using Bore Tech Copper Remover - seems pretty hot to me - very strong ammonia).

So the question is how often do others clean copper from the bore of their rifles, and do you keep after it until 100% of the copper is gone or do you give it a few good soaks and get the bulk of the copper out and call it good?

Art Eatman
May 17, 2006, 02:19 PM
Back in 1997 I noticed that the groups were opening up on a couple of my pet rifles. Somebody turned me on to the copper-removing bore cleaner and I followed the directions.

Et voila! Tight groups, once again.

The '06 had had well over 3,500 rounds through it before going beyond normal cleaning; the .243 maybe a thousand or so. Both rifles had been used over some 25 years.

My normal cleaning process, mostly WD40 sprayed on a patch plus some occasional wire-brushing, had been adequate for a long time, but the buildup of copper had finally caused the degradation in group size.

I've used the copper-remover stuff a couple of times since then, but I don't get enough blue on the patch to notice.

Maybe the rate of buildup has to do with the smoothness of the bore? Just guessing...

Art

Cosmoline
May 17, 2006, 04:19 PM
I was addressing the bit of copper N4Z noticed. You'll always see a bit of copper, and yes once a lot has built up you'll need to use a potent copper solvent to get it out of there. But the fact that you can still see some copper at the crown doesn't mean there's a defect with your rifle or the bullets. It's the natural effect of squeezing a soft metal through a harder metal tube.

seeker_two
May 17, 2006, 05:03 PM
_N4Z_: You can use my dunce cap. I owned a sporterized SMLE for YEARS that I though was only a 8MOA shooter. After reading Col. Cooper's ART OF THE RIFLE and updating my rifle cleaning kit with new chemicals (esp. Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner--:cool: ), I gave that smelly "Smelly" a GOOD cleaning.

At my next range visit, that rifle went from 8MOA to 2MOA--and that's better than I can shoot offhand. Good enough for me... :D

Easy cleaning instructions: Field strip your rifle so you can clean from the chamber. *Run a bronze brush from the breech to the bore and back several times. Use a cleaning patch or paper towel to plug the bore. Spray Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner into the barrel from the breech until the barrel is full. WALK AWAY FROM THE GUN--for at least an hour. When you return, unplug the bore and run cleaning patches from the breech to the bore until they come out clean. Repeat steps from * to here twice more. Clean bolt thoroughly (I use brake cleaner to get all the lube & grime off.) Lightly lube the bolt and reassemble. Take to the range and "get dirty" again... :D

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