[Roadwild17]

Well im looking for a nice gun to do all of my hunting work as well as running a little sporting clays courses. (my roommate works at the field and hooks me up, $10 for the 50 round and $20 for the 100 round:D :D :D :D :D )

Which gun would better fit my needs and what is the difference between the two?

[Nematocyst]

Express is a lesser-quality Wingmaster,
re-engineered for those seeking an "economy" model.

If you want economy, buy Express.

If you want quality, buy Wingmaster.

If you want HD/SD, buy 870P.

Folks with more knowledge will be along shortly.

Nem

[Dave McCracken]

The differences are primarily cosmetic. Old WMs are out there, waiting to be loved. And oft they are available for less than a new Express.

Go get some.....

[IDriveB5]

re-engineered for those seeking an "economy" model.

i'm curious as to what exactly was re-engineered and where this information came from. up until now, everything i have read points to that fact that the differences are solely QC and cosmetics.

[dfariswheel]

Once again, here's the differences between the Express, the Wingmaster, and the Police:

The Express is Remington's "budget" gun, made to compete with the cheaper to make Winchester and Mossberg guns.

How Remington lowered the price was to reduce hand labor to a bare minimum, and to eliminate much of the polishing and de-burring the better quality Wingmaster and Police guns get.

The Express is basically the same forged and milled steel receiver and heavy-duty internals gun the better 870's are, just in a rougher, less well finished form with plastic and MIM parts.

The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style plastic magazine retention system, EXCEPT on the extended magazine version, which does NOT have the dimples.
A rougher finish inside and outside, with machine marks and some burrs left.
A rougher, bead blasted blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end and pressed-in checkering.
The Defense version has 18", Cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.
Has the locking safety button, although Remington MAY have discontinued it.

The Wingmaster has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Wingmaster gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A fine, commercial polished blue finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut stocks with the famous "Bowling Pin" finish in gloss or satin. and better checkering.
Wide choices in barrel lengths and choke options.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Wingmaster is the full top-of-the-line commercial Remington pump gun, and is priced accordingly.

The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Police gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.

The Express is a "bottom of the line" budget gun, the Wingmaster is a "top of the line" sporting gun, the Police is the top-of-the-line in defense guns.
The 870's are generally considered to be the finest quality pump gun made.

[Nematocyst]

i'm curious as to what exactly was re-engineered and where this information came from. up until now, everything i have read points to that fact that the differences are solely QC and cosmetics.IDriveB5, my use of the word "re-engineered" was a poor choice of words. My bad. Thanks for calling me on it. I don't want to be guilty of spreading mis-information. :o

As I predicted in my post above, others - so far, Dave & Dfariswheel - have provided better, more complete, more reliable information.

It's interesting that I joined THR last summer seeking information about this very question. (Well, my first question was, Remington, Mossberg, Ithaca, Benelli...? Once I decided on Remington, THEN my next question was which model.)

I started a few threads, read about a few dozen more around those issues. (Search is our friend.) It was Dave, Dfariswheel, Lee Lapin and others who educated me so capably in those days. (And they kindly continue to do so today.)

Dfariswheel's description, like the one he offered above, was an excellent overview of the differences for me, and contributed strongly to my decision to buy the 870P. I've not regretted that choice for one second.

Good luck with your choice. Keep us posted here about what you decide. ;)

Nem

[ArmedBear]

The bore of my Express looks to be as polished as the bore of the BT-99 sitting next to it. I haven't used a microscope on it, though.:)

There's nothing wrong with the magazine spring retention system on the Express; if you're really concerned that it will ever break, you can carry a spare and replace it with a pocket knife in a few seconds (also true about installing/removing the magazine plug for hunting). It's not as refined as the Wingmaster's system, but it works fine. (Tactical Tommies do complain about the dimples that retain the plastic plug, because they like to add magazine extensions to the guns they don't ever shoot and they have to grind the dimples off. But for your purposes, there's nothing wrong with them.)

As far as service, you'll get essentially the same from each gun, with the following exceptions:

1. The rough exterior of the Express is prone to surface rust from sweat, water, etc. The rust can, however, be wiped off easily and prevented with Bullfrog Rusthunter Gun Wipes (my favorite) or Birchwood/Casey wipes (easier to carry in a pocket).

2. The action of the Wingmaster feels a bit "crisper", as there's more internal polishing, but it's not a huge difference in function or shuck speed.

3. The stock on the Wingmaster feels better, is more fully shaped, being walnut looks a lot nicer, and has much better checkering. The Express stock is entirely serviceable, though.

4. The Wingmaster's surface polish is pleasing to the eye, and the barrel rib with middle bead is markedly superior to that on the Express.

Which gun will you feel better about tossing in a boat or in the bushes? The Express.

Which gun will you feel better about holding, looking at, and psyching yourself up for the next clays station? The Wingmaster.

Which gun will go bang when you need it to? Both. Which gun will you be able to use for the next 20 years? Both. Which gun is more likely to become an heirloom? The Wingmaster.

If you have the extra cash, or can find a nice one that someone will part with for a decent price, I'd say that no one ever regretted getting the Wingmaster. Note that a lot of the inexpensive Wingmasters I see are 2 3/4" receivers with fixed-choke barrels that don't have ribs. Those aren't the most versatile guns on the planet, and it sounds like you want versatile, so look closely and patiently if you're buying used.

[riverdog]

. . .and they're less expensive. While 2 3/4" receivers and barrels don't have versatility, you may never shoot a 3" round, so why worry. If your intended use is duck/geese hunting, get a 3" chamber. My opinion, YMMV.

[sm]

dfariswheel,
Thank you again for posting that great synopsis.
I hope all is well with you and yours.

Personally,
I've never owned a shotgun with 3" chambers - except for .410 - until a few years ago, now that gun is gone*
Never had a problem using nothing but 2 3/4" chambers.

I gravitate to OLDer guns anyway, I like the Wingmaster , then again the Expresses I have used, never were a problem.

Just give me a shotgun, some ammo, and let me shoot the durn thing.

* I bought a newer Express for a general purpose work gun, meaning I did not care if it got dinged, dirty, scratched up - or went swimming.

I may have stuck a 3" shell in it - went "Humm", and removed the shell. I ran the gun in various tests for pattern and groups. I run 200 slugs in one outing, didn't clean it for ~ 1k rds, and let a bunch of folks shoot who know how many rounds of no telling ammo in one day...it never screwed up.

Someone "had to have a 870 Express right now", stores not opened, someone gun buddy and I knew, and his FIL "had to have a HD gun".

*sigh*

No sentimental attachment as this Express , that had proven totally reliable out of the box, the only thing changed - remove the J-Lock and replace with a non-J-lock.

I watched / assisted in whacking my 28 " bbl, I still have the choke, and muzzle end length removed, and I / we stuck the idiotic - unsafe J- Lock back in the trigger group...I kept that old proven safety I had replaced the J- Lock with first thing.

Next the Cheesy syn Full Stock with PG was put on, Mag extension too...
I kept and still have the Full Express Wood stock and Recoil pad as well.

What was a great, all purpose, knock around shotgun that patterned well , grouped great with slugs...was now a piece of crap! Only good for Internet posting bravado.

Fella presented it to FIL all smiles - FIL HATED the thing, and refused to accept it. You don't understand - I mean cursing and mad! He did NOT need a HD gun...he had quite a few bone stock 870 Wingmasters, including OLDer trade in Police models...SIL "don't get it".

Mutual friend of ours , made a really low ball offer of cash for reciever and whacked bbl. I mean real low ball.

My former Express now sports again a Full Wood Express Stock they picked up from someone that goofed one up as mine had been. IIRC my whacked bbl ended up being ~21", - now it has Aftermarket External Knurled Chokes, Decelator recoil pad, and sling swivels with a Lattigo sling for carry if need.

Tack driver with slugs, Buckshot is amazing, and a super duper dense brush gun for grouse, and similar bird hunting.

It has a brother "adopted" the same way, 870 Express 20 ga. The Fellow did not want to mess up his nice Wingmasters, and he has the Special Fields in 870 and 1100...

The Expresses are now BACK to being very simple, general purpose work guns. NO sidesaddes, NO mag extensions , taken a lot of game, bounced around in truck beds and mule drawn wagons , gone swimming, found mud puddles, buried from mud slung from winching...

Still they run always...never miss a beat.

Oh he and wife have each run 200 straight in Skeet, and 50/50 in trap ...even with the 20 ga, they did not get the memo one is not supposed to do that...just a couple of shotgunners that don't know better.

Never malf'd during a Shotgun class either in the 3 days attending either...

Just a couple of bird guns/ game guns...honest.
;)

[ArmedBear]

If you want to hunt waterfowl or turkey, you'll use 3" shells. If not, it's true that you won't.

I've shot only a few 3" shells through my Express; none of them contained lead shot.

I just wanted to point out that, while you can pick up a Wingmaster for under $200 sometimes, it's probably going to be an old 2 3/4" receiver with a no-rib fixed-choke barrel. Therefore, it's not the same as a Wingmaster you would buy now, so account for that before getting too excited about it.

BTW the Express comes with a Modified choke tube. To get the "upgrade" with IC and Full, a bottle of oil and a nicer choke wrench in a Plano box, you'll pay around $30. A new Wingmaster comes with these choke tubes. So add $30 to the price of the Express if you want to do a fair comparison -- which is what I'd recommend.

Hold, shoulder, and pump both 870 variants. See what you think, and consider how the guns feel to you. Remember, after paying for some ammo and some SC tickets, even for the buddy price, the price difference will be long forgotten in six months. Consider that, too. After you've forgotten about the money you spent, which gun will you rather have?:)

[Nematocyst]

Hold, shoulder, and pump both 870 variants. See what you think, and consider how the guns feel to you. That's close to all one needs to make an intelligent, informed decision, IMO.

Only word I'd change is "both".

I think there are actually three: Express, Wingmaster & 870P.

Nem

[ArmedBear]

Actually, there are more variants.

Current production also includes the Marine Magnum, the 870 Tactical, the 870 Special Purpose, and the various Super Magnums (which have somewhat more complex innards). On the used market, you'll find many more variants, like the 870 Competition, which has a gas port, not to load the next shell like an 1100, but to move a weight in the modified magazine tube to absorb recoil (it's a single shot, BTW, and a helluva handicap trap gun, odd though it may be).

But none of these are really of interest to the original poster as a hunting/sporting clays gun, and I'd venture to say that the P isn't, either, nice as it is for 3-gun or bear defense.:)

[riverdog]

There is also the "nice-to-look-at" factor to consider. Wingmaster's, even nice older ones, will always be nicer to look at than the Express. The wood that came on my old TB is just gorgeous.

[JohnBT]

I bought an EXP in '93 and it's been a good gun. OTOH, I've always sort of kicked myself for not buying a Wingmaster even though it's primary use has been hunting ducks and geese out of a boat covered in salt spray. I was just more poor back then, so I took the cheap way out.

A beat up Wingmaster still looks and feels better than a beat up EXP.

John