CCW Legal Question


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XavierBreath
May 14, 2006, 07:34 PM
I never really thought about this until today......After church today, family and I went to a restaurant to eat. We went to a restaurant that serves alcohol during the week. I carry anywhere it is legal to do so.

Louisiana forbids CCW on any portion of the permitted area of an
establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail
permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of
Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of
1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the
premises.

Here's the conumdrum.........Alcohol cannot be sold on Sunday due to the Blue Laws forbidding it. Therefore, the Class A-General retail permit does not apply on Sunday. Since the Class A-General retail permit does not apply, does the restriction against CCW still apply on Sunday?

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evan price
May 14, 2006, 07:41 PM
If the proprietor has posted his premises then a CCW is illegal regardless.

Otherwise this would be a grey area that would make a fine argument for the defense during your trial. Lawyers love this sort of nit picking.

XavierBreath
May 14, 2006, 07:44 PM
For the sake of the argument, lets say it was not posted.

Hyunchback
May 14, 2006, 11:05 PM
It is a sort of lawyer's nitpick question.

The rule was obvious when enacted. Prevent drinking by persons carrying concealed weapons. Either you take off the gun or you don't go to where you can drink.

But the place can't serve alcohol on Sunday. One day a week it's not capable of putting that substance into the system of a concealed carry holder.

A local lawyer would have access to case law. I'm sure there are other things forbidden in such establishments and somewhere someone has argued in court that the business isn't legally a booze merchant on that day of the week so the thing they were forbidden on other nights was legal on Sundays.

How the judge ruled under the previous challenge would tell a lawyer how future cases are likely to be decided, particularly if the case went before your state's Supreme Court.

Here in Colorado I know exactly which lawyer to contact. He's also the president of the CSSA and well versed in firearms law. I don't know if he'd have a clue about Louisiana law but could probably locate his legal counterpart if needed.

7.62mm
May 14, 2006, 11:26 PM
I'm no lawyer, but in Louisiana, it is my understanding that if it is a restaurant, then it probably has an "AR" alcohol license. Carrying concealed in a restaurant that serves alcoholic beverages with that license is legal.

I don't know about being in the "Bar" of a restaurant, however. Perhaps they issue a different license for that part of the premises, but I doubt it...

So the real issue, IMNSHO, is if it would be legal to carry in a bar that is, say, also a grill on Sunday in a location (City or Parish) that has Blue laws regarding the sale of alcohol on Sundays. AFAIK, in Lafayette, we do not have blue laws regarding alcohol. It is legal to sell any beer, wine, or liquor at bars, restaurants, liquor stores, or grocery stores on Sunday. (Wide open)

Regards,

7.62mm

evan price
May 15, 2006, 07:01 AM
IMHO
IANAL


If what you posted in your original post is an accurate copy of the CCW law in your state,

Louisiana forbids CCW on any portion of the permitted area of an
establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail
permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of
Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of
1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the
premises.


Then you answered the question yourself already... The law "forbids CCW on any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a...permit"..et al.... the law says that specifically. So therefore, logically, if they have a permit, you can't carry there, regardless of if they are serving or not, as there is no exclusion in the clause, like, "Unless, that establishment is not legal to serve liqour on that day..." or something... typically, judges/cops/lawyers look at the law as the literal wording of the law.
However; again, IANAL, it does say "...Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment..." which I would interpret to mean, as long as the establishment had separate eating area from the bar, as long as you did not enter the bar, or whatever portion of the area of the establishment that was actually covered by the permit, you would theoretically be OK...? Of course, if this is not defined by a wall or a door or some relatively easy to discern partition or markings, a cop might not be able to make a judgement and may just assume you are in violation.

Would you like to be the test case that sets the legal precedent for your state and maybe never get your gun back? I do not know the legal "flavor" of politicians in LA so you would have to judge yourself. Maybe, just ask the local LEO or proprietor?

IMHO again, when in doubt, CCW keep out.

XavierBreath
May 15, 2006, 07:36 AM
The statute I cited came directly from the Louisiana CCW Permit Booklet. (pdf file) (http://www.lsp.org/pdf/chRuleBook04.pdf)

Here are the Class A Permit definitions:

71.1. Class A permit; definitions (http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=84790)

The commissioner shall issue the following four types of Class A retail liquor permits:

(1) Class A-General:

(a) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to a retail outlet where beverage alcohol is sold on the premises for consumption on the premises by paying customers. Such an establishment must be equipped with a permanent wet bar equipped with a non-movable sink and a backbar or similar equipment for public display and to inform the public of brands and flavors offered for sale.

(b) A Class A - General retail establishment shall be staffed by a bartender whose primary duty is to open and/or prepare beverage alcohol products for consumption on the premises by paying customers, or prepared with an appropriate lid or cover on the container for take out service. Such an establishment must meet all state and local health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where a Class A - General retail outlet is located.

(c) Repealed by Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2.

(d) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises except as provided in R.S. 26:90(A)(8)(a).

(e) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (d) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A - General liquor permit to any bona fide commercial film theater which had a Class A liquor permit on January 1, 1994.

(f) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (e) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A - General retail permit to any retail establishment for consumption on or off the premises. Such establishment must meet all state and local health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where the retail outlet is located. A Class A - General retail permit issued pursuant to the authority granted by this Subparagraph shall not be deemed or qualify as a prerequisite for the issuance of any other type license or permit issued by the state or any political subdivisions thereof.

(g) The licensed premises of a Class A-General retail permit shall be able to accommodate a minimum of twenty-five patrons and contain no less than three hundred seventy-five square feet of public habitable floor area.

(h) The commissioner shall promulgate rules regarding requirements related to the number and location of public restrooms to be used in conjunction with the licensed premises of each Class A-General retail permit.

(i) Any Class A-General retail permit application submitted prior to September 1, 2001, shall not be required to meet the qualifications set forth in Subparagraph (g) of this Paragraph.

(2) Class A-Restaurant:

A Class A-Restaurant permit shall be issued only to a "restaurant establishment" as defined by R.S. 26:73(B) and issued to a facility in conjunction with a Class "R" restaurant permit under the provisions of R.S. 26:73 (http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=84797).

(3) Class A-Special:

(a) A Class A-Special permit shall be issued to any facility which is situated on state-owned land, and which is being developed or operated by the state for public purposes, without the necessity for a local permit from the parish or municipality, notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:81(B)(1) and (C), 273(A)(1), 281(B) and (C)(1), 582 and 595, if all other pertinent qualifications and conditions of this Title are satisfied, and such establishment meets all state health and zoning requirements as set forth by the state.

(b)(i) The provisions of Subparagraph (a) of this Paragraph shall apply only to the Sabine River Authority Conference and Recreational Facility, located in Ward 3, Sabine Parish, Louisiana and shall be applicable only after the following proposition has been submitted to a local referendum election to the voters of Ward 3, Sabine Parish at the congressional general election to be held in 1994, with a favorable vote of a majority of votes cast, to wit:

"Shall the sale of alcoholic beverage of both high and low alcohol content for consumption on the premises be permitted at the Sabine River Authority Conference and Recreational Facility in Ward 3, Sabine Parish, Louisiana?"

(ii) This Subparagraph shall be the sole and only enabling act necessary to call this election, notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:587.

(4) Class A-Restaurant-Conditional:

(a) Any retail establishment holding a Class A-General permit issued pursuant to this Section may be issued a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit, provided it meets the requirements of R.S. 26:73(B)(1), (2), (3), (5), and (6) during the hours from 7:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m. each day of operation.

(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of R.S. 26:90(A)(3)(a) or any other law to the contrary, any establishment which qualifies and receives a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit may permit any person under the age of eighteen on the premises between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m.

(c) No additional fee shall be charged for the application or issuance of a Class-A-Restaurant-Conditional permit.

(d) Notwithstanding any other provision of law to the contrary, a retail establishment located at a public or private golf course licensed to operate video draw poker devices pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 6 of Title 27 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950 prior to January 1, 2004, may be issued a Class A-Restaurant-Conditional permit regardless of the amount or the percentage of food or food items sold at that establishment provided that the establishment meets all other criteria required by the provisions of this Chapter.

Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 63, 1, eff. July 7, 1994; Acts 1994, 3rd Ex. Sess., No. 130, 1, eff. July 7, 1994; Acts 1995, No. 1016, 2; Acts 1997, No. 378, 1; Acts 2001, No. 214, 1; Acts 2001, No. 1188, 1, eff. June 29, 2001; Acts 2004, No. 918, 2.

It appears as though there are four types of Class A establishments in Louisiana, and CCW is only forbidden at a Class A-General. The prohibition of underage patrons appears to be a defining factor of a Class A-General establishment.

So, back to the original question......... If I were in a restaurant such as The Outback legally carrying a concealed firearm, on a Sunday when the Class-A General license would not apply to the bar area due to Blue Laws that prohibit the sale of alcohol on Sunday, would that bar area on that day be part of a Class-A Restaurant? Assuming that was the case, I should then be able to legally walk through the bar area while carrying a concealed gun on my way to the bathroom on a Sunday. Correct?

Perhaps I am making a huge, incorrect assumption that the Blue laws make the Class-A General license not applicable. Perhaps it would still be applicable, just temporarily ineffectual.

(Yes, I know the easier way is to just walk around........)

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