NAA Companion


PDA






Zero_DgZ
May 15, 2006, 10:46 AM
Okay, they got me. The thing just looked neat.

I went up to Cabela's with my nephew over the weekend. Got to eyeballing some black powder stuff, and I wound up going home with a NAA Companion Magnum. I resisted buying the mid-barreled Ruger Old Army. Figured with this outcome I'm about 400 bucks richer.

For such a tiny little thing, it's a very fine piece of craftsmanship. The mechanism, the timing, and the lockup are all flawless. The machining is top notch, and even the grips are nice. And it comes with it's own cute little hard case that the gun and all its tools just barely fit into.

First thing I did was take the grips off and hose the thing down with carb cleaner. Afterwards I relubed it with Hoppes gun oil and shot a handful of caps through it. I only got to fire one cylinderfull out of it yesterday, but I plan to do some serious shootin' with it later, maybe next weekend.

It seemed sort of anemic, though. I mean, I'm not exactly expecting bear dropping power out of this little thing, but it's altogether too quiet when it fires. It failed to puncture a soda bottle from ridiculously short range (5 yards or so) and the final shot out of the five just about made it out of the cylinder into the barrel and I had to knock it out with a wooden dowel.

I'm using Remmington #10 caps with this clean burning Goex stuff the salesguy at Cabela's sold me on. It's FFF and I think it's a bit too corase for this little thing - I'm gonna have to see if I can dig up any FFFF and see if it does any better. I was told it ought to use FFF. Was I told wrong? Any secrets to making this thing go bang a little better?

If you enjoyed reading about "NAA Companion" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Third_Rail
May 15, 2006, 11:04 AM
Definately use 4fg, other than that my only advice is never take the sideplate off - you'll lose two spings. :)

Zero_DgZ
May 15, 2006, 11:19 AM
Yeah, the manual does warn to make sure the screw on it is tight every once in a while.

I guess I'll fool with it for a bit. I'll have to stop off an pick up some quad F on the way home tonight, maybe.

Third_Rail
May 15, 2006, 11:23 AM
As an FYI, turning left tightens that screw, as it's a left hand thread..

Zero_DgZ
May 15, 2006, 11:48 AM
!

That's good to know...

MCgunner
May 15, 2006, 12:13 PM
I've got a .22 mini revolver I like a lot. It hasn't been out of my pocket much in the last 20 years. :D

Zero_DgZ
May 15, 2006, 12:33 PM
Cartridge though, not cap 'n' ball?

This thing has the gizmo factor all over it. It's a gizmo in and of itself. It even comes with another pair of gizmoes to load it with! I love it.

There's just something about black powder revolvers (and powder guns in general, but revolvers are obviously the coolest) that's just inherently, strangely nifty. Powder guns have a sort of character that cartridge guns don't.

That's sorta why I bought this thing. I'm gonna wear the action out just sitting here at my computer at work working the cylinder round and round and round...

Third_Rail
May 15, 2006, 12:43 PM
Did you remove the nipples before any dry-firing??

drdirk
May 15, 2006, 01:08 PM
I have one of these as well. Nice toy but pretty much useless for self defense and highly inaccurate. I can't hit anything over 5 ft away. Nevertheless a fun toy. As far as load is concerned, use Pyrodex P rated powder, not fff.

I don't suggest you do this since it says "for black powder only" but I also shoot 1 gr of Bullseye out of it. Much cleaner and about the same "recoil" as the black powder substitute. The reason I do this, a friend used to have a very similar looking small black powder revolver where in the instructions it said to use 1 gr of Bullseye alternatively to black powder.

Have not shot it in a while. But when I do, I make sure to leave one chamber empty and rest the hammer on the empty chamber.

RyanM
May 15, 2006, 01:27 PM
From what I read, NAA used to recommend the use of Bullseye, especially if the gun were to be used for defense, but the BATF made them take that out of the manual since they said using anything normally associated with smokeless firearms would mean that the guns would need to be reclassified as firearms and not replicas. Sounds kind of like the thing with muzzleloaders not being able to legally use shotgun primers unless a bunch of conditions are met.

Someone else also recommended just buying .22 LR ammo, pulling the bullets, and using the powder charge and bullets from those to load the mini.

Zero_DgZ
May 15, 2006, 03:05 PM
Third Rail: No dry firing for me! I ease the hammer down to its half cock notch when I want to play with it, or take the cylinder out.

arcticap
May 15, 2006, 03:57 PM
What about trying 777 fffg? It's pretty clean burning and stout. I hope the 4F works better for you.
I saw a fellow shooting with some surprising accuracy with his mini .22lr version that had the large grips. Neat!

MCgunner
May 15, 2006, 08:34 PM
That other gun might have been a Freedom Arms? They used to build NAA type mini revolvers and had a BP, I believe.

From what I read, NAA used to recommend the use of Bullseye, especially if the gun were to be used for defense, but the BATF made them take that out of the manual since they said using anything normally associated with smokeless firearms would mean that the guns would need to be reclassified as firearms and not replicas. Sounds kind of like the thing with muzzleloaders not being able to legally use shotgun primers unless a bunch of conditions are met.

Someone else also recommended just buying .22 LR ammo, pulling the bullets, and using the powder charge and bullets from those to load the mini.

Now, the Bullseye thing I'd try. ;) But, ya know, I just can't help asking WHY? I mean, my .22 is easier and quicker to load and, heck, .22 ammo ain't exactly expensive. I wonder if you could cast balls in .22? Guess so. ROFL! I like BP and one of these things would be a really neat toy, but I think the .22 version is much more my thing. It's also pretty accurate. I have a holster grip (wonder if it'd fit the BP version?) which helps gripping the thing. Now, don't misunderstand, it ain't exactly a match grade gun, LOL, but it'll shoot 'em into about 5" at 25 yards which is sort of amazing for such a tiny gun. It's accurate enough I've taken a few rabbits with it at close range, shot a couple of snakes, and killed a feral dog at about 25 yards with a head shot (okay, maybe a little luck in that one:D ). It don't bounce off plastic bottles, at least.

But, I have often thought of getting the BP version of the gun. It is rather neat and would be fun to play with and I bet you would get better accuracy out of it with Bullseye. I can't get 4F, so Bullseye would have to do for me. I'm a long way from anywhere that sells real BP.

Zero_DgZ
May 15, 2006, 09:01 PM
Well, I've got some double base shotgun powder lying around here but no pistol powder. Maybe I'll make up a careful load of that stuff (ought to burn slower, right?) of 1 or 1.5 grains or so and let 'er rip to see how it does.

MCgunner
May 15, 2006, 10:01 PM
Bullseye is a very fast powder. The only faster I can think of is Dupont PB or maybe Red Dot. Unique is slower. I don't know if I'd stray much from 1.0 grain of Bullseye, though, which was recommended. I don't know, a slower shotgun powder might work, but there's no way to check for pressure signs. But, heck, how much does it hold in each chamber? Might not hold much more'n a grain. :D

Bullseye is available everywhere and not all that expensive. I use it in .38 special, 9mm, and .45ACP loads and Unique in those calibers for hotter loads. I wouldn't think going any slower than Unique would work. Blue Dot and 2400 require very high chamber pressures for efficiency, are slow burning, and bulky. They require quite a bit of volume. They would not work.

Yeah, I think I'd just stick with the recommended 1 grain of Bullseye and see how that works.

RyanM
May 16, 2006, 01:06 AM
Main reason why is because NAA companions don't go on any books, and aren't classified as a firearm. Just go into a store, put some money on the counter, and walk out; or just place an order and have it shipped to your front door. May be the only legal option for self defense with a projectile weapon for ex-cons (if an ex-con is trying to stay legal like that, chances are they've gone straight), emancipated minors, people in non RKBA states, etc. Not as powerful as most other firearms, but a shot to the eye socket with one of those would beat almost anything that a knife could do.

Oh, and NAA says that their companions have the same grip frame as the respective normal mini (standard frame and magnum frame), but the place where the cylinder goes is different, so a cartridge cylinder won't fit in a companion, and vice-versa. And instead of trying to cast .22 round balls, #4 buckshot would probably work. #4 is about .24", so there'd be a lot of lead shaved off, but the loader should stand up to it.

Freedom arms used to make the BP mini only, and they are the ones who recommended Hercules Bullseye (since that's what Alliant was called back then). The manual is still on their website, http://www.freedomarms.com

I don't think 777 would work too well. If you do a search for the .31 C&B chrono results, 777 had the slowest average velocity, while Swiss was the fastest.

Boom-stick
May 23, 2006, 08:57 AM
This is my Freedom Arms mini

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/boom-stick/Minirev3.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/boom-stick/Minirev1.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/boom-stick/Minirev2.jpg

Got all the loading gear for it and I run mine on Bullseye as it's so much cleaner than BP to shoot.
FA still stock all the spares as you can see from pics, I got a spare cylinder for it and wood grips to replace the plastic ones and a set of over-sized grips along with a spare main spring, x2 sets of replacement nipples and 1000 bullets:)

For those of you that don't think this a big deal, I am in the UK and it does turn some heads on the range:)

MCgunner
May 23, 2006, 10:05 AM
RyanM, I hadn't thought of that, but that's true, no paper trail. Ain't just ex cons that appreciate that, but I sorta like owning guns with no paper trail, too. :D It's that "get off my arse Uncle Sam" syndrome, I guess. Now, ya got me thinkin' about gettin' one of these little babies. A bag of #4 buck would last for friggin' ever. :D I shoot 00 in my .31 Pocket Remmie and it works great. The idea of having a little pocket cap and ball that would shoot bullseye is pretty cool, though. My little .22 pocket gun is more convenient I guess, but the paper trail thing is a good point. The thing might actually be useful at close range self defense with bullseye and ball. And, it's GREAT to think that our poor Brit cousins actually have a deep concealment option for defense. I reckon if you got caught with one of those over there, you'd probably get locked up in the tower of London for life, but hey, rather be tried by 12 than carried by six!:D

Boom-stick
May 23, 2006, 01:11 PM
And, it's GREAT to think that our poor Brit cousins actually have a deep concealment option for defense. I reckon if you got caught with one of those over there, you'd probably get locked up in the tower of London for life

If I got caught with it I doubt the LEO's would even know what it was , let alone that it was 'real'.:cool:

The first thing most people say when they see it is, " Is that real, I mean is it a real gun???":confused:

Althoungh mine is an FA, the NAA are imported as well.:)

RyanM
May 24, 2006, 12:39 AM
I'm thinking a Companion may also actually be more powerful than the corresponding rimfire mini. Especially if it's safe to use an even faster powder, like Hodgdon Clays. I imagine most .22 RF cartridges are loaded with a medium-fast speed pistol powder, to optimize velocity in longer barrels. Even the ammo meant for pistols is intended for 5 or 6" barrels, and those are usually loaded for match accuracy rather than maximizing velocity. Plus there may be a bit more room in the chambers for powder, compared to the inside of a cartridge case. I wish someone would post chrono data.

Me, I'd prefer 40 gr plated flatnose or dish-nose solids for carry purposes. Definitely want hard, sharp-edged bullets, that would have a better chance of puncturing the brain-box. Probably buy some plated .22 LR ammo, pull the bullets (somehow), save the powder for practice loads, and then put hard wax or an airsoft BB or something in the primed cases and sell them as indoor practice ammo (I have no .22 :( ). Maybe I could get an "Acu'r'z'r," or whatever the crazy things are called, to flatten the tips of the bullets and bump the diameter up a bit, if unmodified pulled .22s don't work that well.

It also should be possible to get replacement nipples made which take small pistol primers instead of percussion caps, for more reliable ignition, safer carry, no jamming the action with cap fragments, and no more worries about dry-firing. NAA may not be willing to make them, given what a pain in the butt the BATF is, but someone else could probably make them.

That'd actually make for a very practical carry piece. Centerfire priming, stiffer powder charge, better bullets. And reloading would actually be faster than a cartridge mini, since you could carry a spare cylinder without worrying about the cartridges falling out. You'd want to use a carrier that keeps the primers covered, but with centerfire primers it's less of an issue, especially if you use CCI primers.

Plus, you could do indoor practice very cheaply. Airsoft BBs are just the right size to squish into the chambers. Use a primer only, and you've got a perfect parlor load. I'm a big fan of rubber bullets in the larger calibers, for this purpose. And it may be possible to do low-noise low-cost pest control using .22 airgun pellets and the primer only, or maybe with a couple grains (literal grains) of powder.

I'm really starting to like the idea of getting an NAA Companion. :evil: Now where'd all my money go?

MCgunner
May 24, 2006, 11:02 AM
Wonder how you'd pull the bullets on a .22 LR? I've done it by buggerin' them up just to get the case when I was testing a gun that was having light primer strikes and I was testing it. It was a beeoch getting the bullet out of the crimp. My impact puller doesn't have a holder that small. Hmmm, have to study that one I'd reckon.

Didn't give enough thought to it, but yeah, .22 is very inefficient in a 1" barrel what with the slowish powder it's loaded with. Bullseye would be more efficient in that short barrel I'd think.

Another thing about .22 LR bullets that ain't too great is they have a tapered heal which crimps into the brass, not loaded as with normal bullets. That heal takes up space. Looks like there's plenty of room in a chamber of that cylinder, though. Just wonder if a full 40 grain bullet would fit efficiently?

Boom-stick
May 24, 2006, 11:04 AM
Ryanm

I think you mean one of these??

http://www.palehorseholsters.com/CAISSON1_small.jpg

http://www.palehorseholsters.com/CAISSON2.jpg

Buy the bullets from NAA or Freedom Arms, you don't need to pull.
It's also very hard to pull the bullets without damaging them, bullet pullers are too big and using one on a rimfire isn't ideal??

and don't forget it's .22 short bullets you need not .22lr.

I've got some steel cored air-rifle pellets which have a nylon skirt to avoid damaging the barrel, I'm trying to get them to work but it's a bit tricky, as the flaired pellet skirt needs trimming before it'll fit in the cylinder.

RyanM
May 24, 2006, 11:51 PM
I don't know if going all the way down to 29 gr .22 short bullets would be necessary. I'd need to actually get my hands on a Companion and measure how far down the counterbore is. I think the manual says there's a counterbore, anyway. Hopefully, a 40 gr bullet would fit in so that the heel goes into the powder space, and the whatchamacallit flat ring sits on the counterbore ledge thingie. If not, I could always just have someone bore them deeper. Or bore them out entirely, to make more room for powder, if that'd be safe. It should be, considering how .22 brass is paper-thin and doesn't offer much support at all. If new nipples were made that take small pistol primers, those could probably be bored out on the inside too, for even more powder room.

Given how cheap .22 ammo is here in the 'States, I think it would actually cost about the same amount per bullet to buy .22 LR, compared to bullets only from NAA...

You could just make your own kinetic puller by drilling a 7/32" hole in the side of a 1.5" diameter pipe, reaming it out to .223", and filing the area around the hole completely flat. PVC pipe would be lighter and easier on the floors. It'd also reduce the chance of a discharge, since it's kinda hard for plastic to dent brass. Then use tape or something to hold the round in place while you're beating it on the floor. That would probably be safe for pulling the bullets out, since the impact would be on the entire rim at once. And if the round goes off somehow, it's enclosed in a pipe.

Manyirons
May 25, 2006, 09:47 AM
HI!

And the Boss DOES primer nippies&things for these has. Also has loaed several to utter ruin in testin, sos he KNOWS day ta day loads for em.

On tha one he uses, solid copper cutting edge bullet at over 1.300 off tha muzzle SAFELY. (Chronoed)

MCgunner
May 25, 2006, 10:12 AM
It's about time you showed up! RyanM's head has been smokin' thinkin' up this project and now you come in and tell him it's all been done..:banghead: ROFLMAO!

Manyirons
May 25, 2006, 10:24 AM
Aint nottin new, ya jus dont know about it yet!

Want fun? Go to tha hospital with tha mann for mri and carry tha BIG tool bag while he undresses. I mean tha iron.

Now stand in corridor with 30 pounds of iron INCLUDIN TWO shirt pockett NAAs whistlin

Ya aint NEVER seen so much iron comin out!

But yep! He DO know how ta load em right!

Zero_DgZ
May 25, 2006, 12:15 PM
So, spill it. What's he load 'em with?

Right now I'm using the NAA bullets that I got with the gun and 3.5 grains of shotgun powder from some target loads (the only smokeless I had) and it goes "bang!" real nice and doesn't seem to hurt it, but I'd rather have a second opinion...

MCgunner
May 25, 2006, 01:07 PM
Hey, Z, you gotta chronograph. You really need to give us some numbers. :D Are you measuring the charge by volume? Just wonderin'. Be a pain to have to weigh each charge, but might be prudent, don't know. I have a Lee powder scoop set, but I don't even know if it goes down to one grain of Bullseye, LOL!

If you're shooting a shotgun powder out of a field or target load, chances are it's about Green Dot speed, which is pretty close to Bullseye.

Manyirons
May 25, 2006, 02:38 PM
Hi!
His current loading is AA2 backed by a pinch of Swiss Null B. Amounts? I'll have ta ask!

RyanM
May 25, 2006, 03:27 PM
Awesome. I was actually planning on asking you, after things have quieted down, how much it'd cost for Jule to do all the stuff I'm talking about (nipples, reaming, etc.).

Does he got any archived chrono data or anything from how the other powders did? How about Power Pistol or IMR Hi-Skor 800X? Those are the only powders I have, and I'd be loathe to add yet another. Has he ever tried the 40 gr bullets that are meant for handloading .22 centerfire varmint loads, or pulled .22 LRs?

Manyirons
May 25, 2006, 04:58 PM
He dont use tha lead bullets at all, ina shed out back here is DRUMS of kindknox geletin fer bullet testin, and he settled ona machined all copper CUTTING/CRUSHING point with a hollow inside fer extra powder capacity.

Yep, keeps records of EVERTHIN, and theres data on hp38, AA2, 231, likes tha ball powders causa density/energy.

RyanM
May 25, 2006, 08:33 PM
Interesting. What kinda penetration did he get with the solid copper ones? If it was more than 13", think he'd be willing to sell any of them?

I really gotta get a chrono so I can test out Power Pistol and 800-X, though. Both are extremely good all around powders. And 800-X has the craziest pressure to power ratio I've ever seen. In .40 cal, it can get the same velocity as any other powder, with 2/3rds or less pressure.

Manyirons
May 25, 2006, 09:12 PM
40 grain copper bullet at 1300 through four layers of denim gets ya between 11 and a half ta 15 inches.

What he calls an icepick with a LONG needle.

In Big REAL guns he considers tha 12 inch thing (On people) a pile of it. But for THIS thing, he wants ta puch through anythin hard or soft. Mind ya, it CUTS a full caliber hole. Mattera fact ya got ta handles em real gingerlike cause they SHARP!

Afore ya goes and orders any, lemme see if he's got anyloose ta spare, ta test out.

Ifin he aint, how many ya want? Determines price. And AINT cheap, individually machined. I'd ask for 25-50were i you cause that gets tha price down.

He said earlier, ifin ya go through a little more loadin procedure, and tha bullets are grooved for it, loctite stud&bearing seal makes tha pressure push way up afore they release, says with right smokeless load ya can get 1400/1450.

Tha manns a whiz!

Oh! Ya ALSO need tha tubes ta let ya use primers!

He's got one, its a THREE shot .32 and a steel frame Remmie .31 thats now a .40 three shot with some super stainless cylinder and primer tubes for smokeless thats just unreal for velocity/energy.

I'll ask about yer powder ya mentioned.

RyanM
May 25, 2006, 10:19 PM
I'm not going to argue with THE MANN, but after running some numbers on how well bullets do after penetrating through an arm first, I'm starting to think 12" is actually way too little for me. Need more like 15" just to penetrate 3" of arm (forearm would be angled if someone's pointing a gun at you or about to stab you), then the chest front-to-back. To be able to smash the spine after penetrating an arm and then the chest, you need more like 18". And that's assuming the bullet doesn't hit a forearm bone.

Skin adds a lot of resistance. General rule is that the first layer of skin is a freebie. After that, exiting from the body or a limb costs you 3-4" of penetration, and re-entering costs 2".

Sure, you've got more shots in case one hits an arm or something, but I want every single one to be as effective as possible. You never know which one is "the bullet." I just keep thinking of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. Dove fired a bullet that genuinely had Platt's name on it. But because it hit an arm first, it stopped 1" short of nailing the guy's heart. That bullet did kill Platt, but not fast enough to save two lives (not to mention a groin and a neck, too).

It's almost enough to make me give up on expanding ammo in pistols altogether!

Of course, you might also say "so aim around the gosh darned arm!" Well, the truth is... I'm a lousy shot. "So practice!" you might answer. I do practice as much as I can, but I'm still not that good. I can nail a bullseye at most ranges if I've got enough time, but if I have to hurry, all I'm really capable of is minute-of-torso out to 20 feet.

And I'm starting to see why Jule considers cap-and-ball revolvers to be perfectly functional carry pieces, wow! With a cartridge gun, you'd have all kinds of problems with primer pockets and case head ruptures and shattered cases, plus recoil spring weight in an auto!

You think he might actually approve of the mod I had done on my Glock 23? http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1028467&postcount=17 Exactly the same thing Clark had done, TIG welded and re-cut feed ramp. .44 magnum powder charge in a .40 S&W case, holy poop! :eek: According to my estimates, I'd be able to get a 200 gr pill to over 1,400 FPS, or a 135 gr bullet to break 2,000 FPS, if I replicated Clark's shenannigans! :what:

It'd definitely be interesting to get Clark and Jule together to talk about maximum power loads...

Anyway though, I'm not looking to buy any just yet. I'm still saving up money for a Companion first! Probably a chrono too.

But just so I know how much I'm going to have to save, could you see how much it'd cost to ream out the chambers of 2 NAA Super Companion cylinders, have small pistol primer (maybe even small rifle instead, since those are thicker and'll hold in the pressure better?) nipples made for both, any modifications to the mini itself he thinks would be a good idea, and then 50 of them bullets? Prices on all of those things individually, of course. Man, I gotta grow a money tree or something.

And on the powder, Clark seems to say that Power Pistol and HiSkor 800-X have the best pressure to power ratios of any pistol powders. They're both also very well-behaved, and won't spike in pressure until you get way up there.

Thanks a ton!

Manyirons
May 26, 2006, 10:07 AM
Hi!

FBI thing, jus like other original FBI inventions (TestiLYING) etc. Hmmm off course , but ya cant blame a bullet fer bad tactics&stupid mistakes.

Dont know this Clark guy, DO know THA MANN has real copper crusher&piezo electric presure testin here, yup, really!

And i DID write difference between little&big guns. THa MANN has also around tha world been in real honest ta hanna stand up gunfights, none o that matter cause its off tha point. Ya pays yer money and believes yer own personal pundits. (Word of tha day! Yup being educated in ALL ways,) otherwise tha MANN told me he'd just call himself Clint, and me Clyde. (Tha orangutang) I's gettin POLISHED! One day i'll be holdin my pinkie out when drinkin tea and say things like; Another biscuit old boy? :)

All tha mods ya asked about, around 70.00 with tha bullets included.

And thanks fer askin!

Chrontius
May 26, 2006, 02:27 PM
yep, but you can blame a bad bullet for bad penetration in a real-world scenario.

Would a mini modded such still be able to eat NAA's blackpowder loads?

Or better, primer and birthday-candle-slice indoor loads?

I may not wait for the .32 mini.

Manyirons
May 26, 2006, 02:33 PM
Yup!

Still works fer anythin else and indoor primer plinkin with pellets!

Zero_DgZ
May 26, 2006, 07:10 PM
Are you measuring the charge by volume? Just wonderin'

Crikey, I leave this thread alone for a day and I'm twleve pages behind!

Anyway, I load by volume. Since the manual stateth that the little yellow scoop that comes with the thing holds "four grains" of black powder, I fill it to about the 3.5 mark and load. I have no idea what the weight is as I don't have a powder scale. The only scale I do have only has a resolution of .1 grams, so that probably isn't going to help us much...

Anyway, the shotgun powder is pretty slow burning stuff compared to pistol powders, methinks, and I'd be a lot more cautious about loading that much of a faster burning powder.

RyanM
May 26, 2006, 11:36 PM
70 bucks is a great price. How much of that is the bullets? I'm also wondering now how much it'd cost for say 25 of the real sharp bullets, and then 75 more of ones that are the same weight and everything, but are less labor intensive to make, for the sole purpose of chrono testing.

Just as a note, the 12" thing actually comes from another guy who's been there, done that, and has the T-shirt. Originally, the FBI basically just tried the maximum energy approach with a bigger cartridge (10mm), but zero testing.

Then along came Martin Fackler, who'd served as a combat medic in Vietnam, then went on to get an M.D. because that's the only way he could get anyone to listen to him and get other doctors to stop butchering their patients (long story). It was Fackler's advice that led to the FBI's penetration requirement of 12" to 18" (Fackler himself says 12.5" to 14" is the optimum in bare gel, 13" to 16" through 4 layer denim), and also the development of the .40 S&W.

Fackler saw firsthand what happens to men right when they're shot, minutes after, hours after, days after, weeks after, and years after, in his career. And he said that with handguns, big heavy bullets at moderate speed that make big deep holes are the best way to put men down and keep them down.

Basically, Fackler sees all handguns the same way Jule looks at the NAA Companion. An icepick with a real long needle, that the best you can hope from them is a deep caliber-width hole.

Also, gelatin is really misleading, because the tears in gelatin barely have anything to do with the amount of wounding in living tissue. Most jello testers say the tears only tell you the size of the temporary cavity but even that isn't true. The temporary cavity is bigger than the tears.

If you want to see the actual size of the actual hole which would be left behind in living elastic tissues, the best tissue simulant to use is a special mix of "transparent gel candle" stuff. Of course, the actual medium you'd use has as much to do with a candle, as ballistic gel has with a jello mold. 13% kraton and 87% white paraffin oil (or it may be 15/85, the article is kinda badly done...) will replicate the penetration of ballistic gel, and also humans. Also, I believe the gel candle blocks are more highly reusable, since you can simply melt them down and recast the block after shooting it a few times. http://www.travma.org.tr/pdfs/9.2/TJTES.9.2.5.pdf

Personally, I'm now starting to think Fackler's opinion on energy at handgun levels was due to his personal experiences. As a combat medic, he only saw people being shot with FMJ ammunition, and as a surgeon, he only saw people several minutes or hours after they'd been shot. Recent research, especially the stuff by our own Michael Courtney, suggests that the immediate reaction to being shot is more dependent on energy than previously believed. A pressure wave (which correlates with energy, and distance from CNS structures of the shot) of sufficient magnitude can damage the central nervous system. However, Fackler's research into the same phenomenon also suggests that the damage is minor (it can only be seen under a microscope), and does not have any long-term effects.

In other words, barring shots which directly pulverize the spinal cord or brain, whether or not someone drops instantly depends on the pressure wave (energy and shot placement), but whether they stay down depends on whether the hole is big and deep enough to punch through a vital organ (penetration, hole size, and shot placement). Anecdotal evidence does seem to show that this is the case. People hit with high-energy rounds in non-vital areas often drop, only to get right back up and keep fighting seconds later, while people hit in vital areas with low-energy rounds will often keep fighting for several seconds as though nothing were wrong, before finally bleeding out.

Seems like the best approach is to use a big, heavy, fast bullet with high energy, that makes a big deep hole. Someone's gotta be right, so I'm covering all bases with my primary carry loads. See my thread here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=201813

Very nasty, and definitely covers everything. Very high energy, very deep penetration, very nasty fragmentation, very huge temporary cavity (threw pieces of modeling clay about 50 feet), and a good hole size. What more can you ask of a handgun round?

Duncaninfrance
May 27, 2006, 04:38 AM
Very nasty, and definitely covers everything. Very high energy, very deep penetration, very nasty fragmentation, very huge temporary cavity (threw pieces of modeling clay about 50 feet), and a good hole size. What more can you ask of a handgun round?

How about the smell? Rosewater or perhaps English Lavender Water or maybe even Chanel No.5 :evil: :cool: What do you mean - FLIPPANT :neener:

Duncan

Manyirons
May 27, 2006, 11:31 AM
Tha Boss prefers BIJAN :) Even OWNS two tuxedoes, one need not be declasse irrespective of circumstance old boy.

Aint life FUN!

Oh! Boss want tha tel # of the guy with tha loadin for his NAA and tha .40/10mm, thought he'd call and chat.

Expect in tha next month cause he's movin slower, about everone here gettin called, sos ifin ya wanna talk ta him, send yer #, he lokes you guys and wants ta formally introducetalk.

Some Euro thing i guess!

RyanM
May 27, 2006, 11:41 PM
I could add some cornmeal on top of the powder so it'd smell like popcorn. Mmm, popcorn. Oh, yeah, I've also got the psychological angle covered. According to one doctor, .357 magnum creates wounds which are no more severe than .38 SPL, and the reason for the higher number of one-shot incapacitations is the increased flash and blast. At least a few of those cases were legitimately not due to the pressure wave/energy differences, because there were a few criminals who fainted dead away even though the shot missed! And Power Pistol, which I'm using, is unmatched for flash and blast. BLAAMMMMMMOOO!

The guy with the loading is me, right? Although I'm really not an expert on hot loading at all. That would have to be Clark. I don't think anyone else has pushed as many cartridge guns as hard as that guy has. The only stuff about hotrodding I know is what I've learned from reading Clark's posts.

PawPah
March 1, 2009, 01:00 AM
any further developments re cyls,primers,bullets etc?:evil:

Busyhands94
March 5, 2011, 06:47 PM
RyanM you can take the primed .22 cases and put them on the end of a wooden arrow that has the tip cut off and the diameter reduced, put a little smokeless in there, and you can shoot bricks with them and they give a pretty loud report! something like a firecracker! or you could put .22 airgun pellets in the case, that might work well for indoor target practice!

If you enjoyed reading about "NAA Companion" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!