[jlbraun]

Long story short, the girl has been shooting but did not want me owning guns for a variety of irrational / emotional reasons. Rational reasoning in all other forms failed.

"It's for protection." -> "Get a baseball bat."
"It's enjoyable." -> "So take up golf."
"You know, this area has almost 3 times the national average of rapes per capita."->"I can take care of myself, a gun wouldn't help anyway."
"It's for political reasons (a relative of mine was in a concentration camp)." ->"well, my family was run off their farm in the old country, and a lot of them got shot, that doesn't mean I go out and buy a gun."

So I said: "Here it is. I didn't want to being this up but this is how it stands. I feel that you're intruding on my personal boundaries by insisting that I get rid of my firearm. We've dated for awhile, so I can tell you the following. If I just met a hypothetical woman and she said 'It's the guns or me' as you just did, for a variety of reasons I would say that she didn't respect or trust me, and I'd show her the door. Please don't make me answer that question if the woman is you, because I don't think you'd like the answer. I understand that you are scared of guns, but recognize that that falls under your personal boundaries and owning guns falls into mine. I love you."

...and what do you know, she said, "OK. Even if we move in together, it's still outside of my boundaries to insist that you get rid of the gun. The relationship is more important to me. I'm still scared of guns though."

Huzzah!

[cavman]

Outstanding!
Give yourself a gold star!

[1 old 0311]

Like breaking a horse, or raising a child...............Take it SLOW and easy.

Kevin

[cowboybobb693]

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice to see someone else besides me has enough cajones to lay down the law to their girlfriend/wife etc.. Some folks just bring up tired old arguments about being anti-gun and they should really open up their eyes to the real world.
I'm just grateful that my wife LOVES guns and is a great shot.

[Anthony]

Nice to see a guy with balls in this "men holding their wives' purse and shaving below the neck because their girl told them to" kinda world we're living in!

:D

[Henry Bowman]

and shaving below the neck because their girl told them to:confused: :uhoh: Now that's just plain messed up.

['Card]

Your description of what you said sounds a lot better than what I thought it was going to after reading the thread title.

Just take it slowly and don't rub her face in it. She'll come around.

[jlbraun]

Your description of what you said sounds a lot better than what I thought it was going to after reading the thread title.

Just take it slowly and don't rub her face in it. She'll come around.


For me, that WAS laying down the law. :)

I don't plan on rubbing it in, I've learned a lot about myself, guns, and her in the past few months.

[Ala Dan]

better yet, two gold stars~!:D

[Matt King]

Good job!!! :) :)

[jlbraun]

I also didn't want to drag it out over months or years. "First, I brought the slide in the house. A few months later, I brought the frame into the house..."

[Rich K]

Good job. Sounds like you two are on the right track.

[Henry Bowman]

Now to address CCW.:what:

[Silver Bullet]

Nice to see a guy with balls in this "men holding their wives' purse
Hey ... I hold my wife's purse when she goes into public restrooms. If anyone were to call me on it, I'd just tell them it's an ammunition bag. :D

[Silver Bullet]

I understand that you are scared of guns, but recognize that that falls under your personal boundaries and owning guns falls into mine. I love you.

That ... was freaking brilliant ! :cool:

[rangermonroe]

All that it will take for her to "come around" is something going bump in the night :what: , and she'll realize how comforting that hunk of steel can be.

Instant convert.

[Tom Servo]

Keep this up, and she'll end up out shooting you at the range in six months...:eek:

[lamazza]

Until you get her shooting and until she 'believes' this issue will not die. Women have a way of placating for the moment but their agenda is NEVER forgotten.

[Standing Wolf]

There's nothing like a shortage of people, so no need to waste time on the irrational.

[jlbraun]

Until you get her shooting and until she 'believes' this issue will not die. Women have a way of placating for the moment but their agenda is NEVER forgotten.

True that. However, if her "agenda" comes up again and she tries to force it on me, I think that I've made it clear that she knows where the door is. I think my willingness to "go hard" on this helped.

I'll get her shooting soon enough.

[rbernie]

Don't push her on shooting...

You took the right approach by showing her that each of us has the right to our own boundaries. You asked her to respect yours. You need to do the same.

[BigRobT]

I might not recommend "pushing" her on shooting, but it wouldn't hurt to train, explain and introduce her to guns. Once she sees that they are no more dangerous than the person using it, she'll come around, maybe.

[Lennyjoe]

Good job.

I would of said something like; "Accept me and my guns or don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya"!:D

[Pilgrim]

I think you did incredibly well in addressing an area that eventually every relationship/marriage will get to.

My ex-PMS in the early days of our marriage pulled the "If you don't do this I'm leaving" gambit. I told her, "There's the front door. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out."

She went in to a 'fhit sit hissy' and said, "Do you really want me to leave?"

I told her, "No, but there is nothing I can do to make you stay if you want to leave. However, if I surrender to your ultimatum I will never have any life of my own in this marriage."

She calmed down and never pulled that stunt again.

Pilgrim

[jibjab]

My wife(not then) realized there was something amiss when Rose O'donall gave Tom Selleck a hard time for being pro gun on her show. God I love my wife. She realized there was something wrong with the anti-bias towards firearms in the media :confused: Then she joined the NRA while not owning a gun , now she has many to choose from :D

[mountainclmbr]

I dated a woman once that said that there would be no guns inside "her" home. I said "ok if I don't live here, but if someone breaks in, I am jumping out a window and you and your kids are on your own". She was really upset that I felt that way. I always asked "you want me to die with you?" I always had a gun anyway, but the "being a sheep is great for the wolves" mentality just struck an anti-Darwin chord with me. The final straw was when she said that Hillary would soon control me. It will never happen, even if MS Marx does get elected.

[Ramius]

One of the best ways to introduce some one afraid of guns to the subject, is the safety angle...

"I know you are afraid of guns, so I want you to at least know how to make this one SAFE if you need to. Here is how you unload it, and clear the chamber."

That's how I got my wife started, and now she's outgrown her P-22 and is wanting a 9mm....

:D

[oneslowgun]

Spot on Ramius.

[armedandsafe]

I was talking with my manager today, and he related the story of his daughter-in-law. They have been visiting J. three or four times a year since she came over from England about six years ago. To make a long story short, she has gone from, "(Husband) there are guns here. What do we do if the police show up?" to, "Perhaps that 9MM was once yours, but now it's mine. Go buy one for yourself."
:neener: :D

Pops

[Hikingman]

Wish this was a sticky - being single, I might want to memorize the better lines, in the future. :D

[flatdog]

The website by PAX, THR Moderator Emeritus just might come in handy.:cool:

www.corneredcat.com

http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=199513

[Aquaholic]

So I said: "Here it is. I didn't want to being this up but this is how it stands. I feel that you're intruding on my personal boundaries by insisting that I get rid of my firearm. We've dated for awhile, so I can tell you the following. If I just met a hypothetical woman and she said 'It's the guns or me' as you just did, for a variety of reasons I would say that she didn't respect or trust me, and I'd show her the door. Please don't make me answer that question if the woman is you, because I don't think you'd like the answer. I understand that you are scared of guns, but recognize that that falls under your personal boundaries and owning guns falls into mine. I love you."

Funny... I had about the same conversation with my GF, maybe just a little abbreviated... I said "Don't like guns? Tough."

[c_yeager]

You may have won the battle but remember one thing. Women are *masters* of the strategic withdrawal. Right now, she is Russia and you are a train full of jovial German soldiers heading to Stalingrad thinking they will be home in two weeks. Keep your wits about you and remember to pack your mittens, you got a lot of work ahead of you.

[Stainless Chili]

And to think I didn't own a gun until my girlfriend roped me into accompanying her to a rural county so she could pursue a particular job ...

Goog show, baby! :D

[gunsmith]

A pro life right wing gun nut.

I don't like wasting time.

I even recently had a date to go shootin with a fine 21yr old (I'm in my late 40's) I would rather just be honest....It seems to work fine.

[pax]

Yeah, Yeager, you're right -- women are all alike, and all of them are evil and manipulative.

:rolleyes:

Y'know, it occurs to me that the endless, knee-jerk misogyny on THR gets more on my nerves every year.

*******

jlbraun ~ excellent work. Sounds like you and she are building a good thing, with honesty and forthrightness. May your tribe increase!

pax

[Zen21Tao]

Bravo. Congrats on standing you ground and coming out on top.

I had a friend that was a die hard anti-gun tree hugging leftist liberal. I am not exagerating when I say that she took the extreme left position on every issue known to man.

However, one trip to the range with my fullsize HK USP .45ACP and she fell in love with shooting (she begged me let her shoot my other guns too). In relatively short time she went for 100% anti-gun to 100%, own anything you can get your hands on, pro-gun. :D

However, she still remains to the far left on everthing else. :banghead:

[jdkelly]

+1 C_yeager

Yeah, Yeager, you're right -- women are all alike, and all of them are evil and manipulative.
PAX,
Having been in a relationship where no agreement was immune to renegotiation (until she got her way that is) I agree with your premise in general, although I wouldn't say all of them as there must be some good one's out there. :)

jlbraun,
While you may think that the point is settled but I think it’s unlikely that you are done negotiating. If her fear is based on emotion rather then logic then I would expect that every time something changes in your relationship you girl friend will reopen the negotiations based on that change (moving in together, engagement, marriage, children). Logic will not over ride emotion.

If you think you've won, then you've lost!


Respectfully,

jdkelly

[f4t9r]

I did the same thing once. You know I do kind of miss her from time to time !!

[Stiletto Null]

However, she still remains to the far left on everthing else.Ehh. So long as people aren't trying to breach my Constitutional rights, they're fine in my book. A democracy doesn't work if everyone agrees.

[Kentak]

Women believe they can change their man. She may say that now, but if the relationship becomes more permanent/serious, she will try to get you to see things her way. On the little things, it's not a big deal, but on something as important as gun ownership is to you, be careful. Make clear it will *not* be negotiable in the future and to decide now if it's a deal breaker for her.

K

[pax]

jdkelly,

With an attitude like that, you'll never find any other type.

pax

... you'll find the people here the same, the wise man said. -- E. Markham

[AJAX22]

Living in kalifornia, I've dated several left leaning semi tree hugger girls, my experiance has been that they hate the idea of guns right up untill the scarry man follows them down the street, then they turn to you and say "You have a gun on you right?"

Another thing I've noticed with these people is the more leftist they lean the less likely they are to stick there head out the window to see what that strange noise was. They really like to burry there head in the sand.

All that being said, my fiance now, while she does have a few leftist twinges, brags proudly that the little gun in my case is hers (.22 short revolver)

[jlbraun]

@jkelly, @yeager, @kentak

I'm not thinking that anyone has won here. What we did was establish boundaries. If it comes up again, my boundaries stay where they are. I've made that clear and will continue to do so.

On another note, she said "so you're going to continue to own guns, even though it hurts me?" to which I replied, "That's unfair and you know it. You and only you can make yourself 'feel' a certain way, and you alone hold the responsibility for how you feel, not me or anyone else."

[jdkelly]

jdkelly,
With an attitude like that, you'll never find any other type.
pax


Experience is a harsh Mentor.:)


Respectfully,

jdkelly

[V4Vendetta]

"Yeah, Yeager, you're right -- women are all alike, and all of them are evil and manipulative."


That's true. Amen & halleluejah:D . All women are that way with the possible exemption of my mother:D :D .

To the guy who started this topic, LOOK OUT! When kids come along, she'll probably insist that the guns go then. If you say no, she'll probably hold a yard sale while you are at work. I can imagine what happens when you get home then. Sure you could have her arrested by the G-men for illegaly selling guns but are you really going to do that to the mother of your children?:scrutiny:

[dfaugh]

Well, I think you did OK... You'll probably have to continue to "work" on her, so she can be more accepting, if she's truly afraid of guns. But, you approached it seriously and logically, and if you continue in that vein, you'll probably turn her around!

[Vitamin G]

On another note, she said "so you're going to continue to own guns, even though it hurts me?" to which I replied, "That's unfair and you know it. You and only you can make yourself 'feel' a certain way, and you alone hold the responsibility for how you feel, not me or anyone else."

Are you a therapist? I use that same line on my clients all the time!

[Offwhite]

Well guys you know what they say, "Women, you can't live with 'em & you can't have hetorosexual sex without 'em."

Now, good job jlbraun! That was an excellent way of explaining yourself. It never really came to anything like that with me & mine...

When me & my fiancee first started going out about 3 years ago she didn't understand why I kept a S&W .357 under my pillow (this is not an exageration) in a holster while I slept. It also made her very nervous.
After about 3 or so months of us going out she was staying the night & some doped-up crackhead was trying to break into the apartment about 3 o'clock in the morning, she woke up & she looked at me but I already had it drawn. I told her to call 911, which she did but it took like 15 minutes for someone to show up (thats a whole nother story), so I walked around to the front door & confronted him through the door. Long story short,its 3 years later, she has lived with me now for about 2, & she has the .357 beside her on the night stand & my Glock 30 is whats under my pillow now...God I love that woman.

[jlbraun]

@V4
I'm aware that other men have had those things happen to them. I'm going to educate, hold the line, and make sure that she knows the consequences of doing such drastic things like selling off or getting rid of guns without his knowledge.

If one is a typical doormat American male that doesn't draw boundaries because he is "sensitive to his partner's needs and concerns" (ie. PW'd), then I would say that such a thing happening would be possible. However, if one isn't passive-aggressive and comes out right away as "This is my decision, I understand that you may not like it, but you should respect it." then she recognizes where the bounds are and what lines not to cross. It's about being your own person and clearly drawing boundaries - it shows that you respect things about one another that you don't like.

Men have talked themselves into falling back whenever their partner doesn't like something they do, just because it's easier than holding the line and letting the chips fall where they may. I'm glad I did what I did.

Bottom line - I stood up for what I believe in, drew reasonable boundaries, and I think our relationship is the better for it.

[jlbraun]

@Vitamin G
Well, I wasn't going to hit her with "Honey, what you just did is, in the language of logic, called a 'conclusion from non-falsifiable premises', meaning it's a conclusion that by its nature cannot be disproven.":evil:

I have a degree in Enlightenment philosophy, but I have to step away from it sometimes.

[Rick O'Shea]

OK, I'm a guy, but I've got to go along with Pax on this one; There's a big difference between negotiating boundaries with a significant other of differing perspective, and "breaking a horse to the saddle".

[gunsmith]

heard it said that men go into a relationship hoping the gal will never change and women go into a relationship hoping to change the guy....I stood up for what I believe in, drew reasonable boundaries, and I think our relationship is the better for it.

It's amazing how many do not grasp how important that is.

Ajax22 is right about the kind of women in CA, they're all for making guns impossible to get and sending you to jail for carrying one unless you're a cop yet expect you to have it when the gangbangers surround you.

PAX
Yes, they're are quite alot of immature mysoginist here nowadays, but if you get to know us you'll find even more reprehensible traits as well.;)

[pax]

gunsmith ~

I see no particular reason why anyone would take pride in being a condescending bastard toward half the people on the planet, but some folks apparently do.

jlbraun ~

You have earned my admiration for very clearly stating your boundaries and your intention to stick with it. More power to you!

pax

[High Planes Drifter]

If the young lady does go to the range with you, and is at least in consent with you that you buy a firearm and bring it home; then IMO most of the hard work is done in converting her to fully support you in owning firearms, and who knows, perhaps even owning one herself. My advise is to not be "pushy" , but do be consistent with it. Invite her to the range to shoot the gun you have purchased, show her how to safely operate/handle the gun, be supportive and patient, but consistent so that she doesnt keep that "fear" of having the gun in the house. That fear is what will cause many arguements if you dont work with her to get over it. BTW, good job on the first discussion with her on the subject.

[jlbraun]

If the young lady does go to the range with you, and is at least in consent with you that you buy a firearm and bring it home; then IMO most of the hard work is done in converting her to fully support you in owning firearms, and who knows, perhaps even owning one herself. My advise is to not be "pushy" , but do be consistent with it. Invite her to the range to shoot the gun you have purchased, show her how to safely operate/handle the gun, be supportive and patient, but consistent so that she doesnt keep that "fear" of having the gun in the house. That fear is what will cause many arguements if you dont work with her to get over it. BTW, good job on the first discussion with her on the subject.

She has been to the range, but didn't like having a gun in the house. This discussion has been ongoing for some time.

I appreciate the support. :)

[Texas9]

Nicely done. I had a similar experience. Told her from day one (right after she said there'd NEVER be a gun in our house) that I was a gun guy. If she couldn't handle that then we shouldn't go any farther (I think this coincided with our conversation about how my '68 Firebird is NOT an asset, even if bills are piling). We've been married 5.5 years and have 4 guns and counting. Furthermore, she's a crackshot with a pistol, and even prefers larger handguns to boot. I always wanted a 92FS. She picked it out WITHOUT that prior knowledge.

There are no anti's. Just the uninformed/mislead:neener:

[Rugerlvr]

My wife is a Desert Storm Vet. I'm the one who was in College at the time. She's a trained killer. We went to a gunshow recently, and while I owned a .22 rifle, a 12-guage, and a 9mm pistol, we didn't own a high-powered rifle, and were looking for one. She said we should get an AR-15, since that's what she trained with. I knew we couldn't afford one, and when she saw how much they are going for, she took my alternative suggestion, and we bought a Mini-14.

She loves shooting it.

[hso]

jlbraun,

You've done better than the rock throwers because you obviously think clearly instead of emotionally, have the courage to not loose your temper and are reasonable in communicating what is and isn't reasonable behavior.

The rock throwers on the other hand may not be inherently stupid. While clichéd', their opinions may be based on first hand experience or observed behavior. Those experiences and opinions may be borne out of poor interpersonal skills instead of social retardation. If they had your skills their experiences would have been different. And there's nothing saying that the women in their lives were any more adept at relationships and communication than they are. A match made in hell.

The problem is in believing that all women/blacks/men/whites are emotional dangerous sexist racists. In other words don’t assume that your limited experience gives you the special vision to characterize a whole group/class of people. No one individual is assured of being like or unlike you.

All that aside, bravo for your maturity. Keep in mind though that your GF has years of conditioning behind her irrational fear of firearms and that it would be as arrogant of you to assume you’ve magically converted her with this one discussion as it is of the rock throwers to assume that all women are conniving and manipulative.

For all the rock throwers,

My wife was not a gun owner before we met. She has a carry permit, her own firearms, has taken an AK combat class and is signed up for a 2 day point shooting class. The very idea that a woman or man would go behind their spouse’s back and dispose of personal property because it somehow offended their sensibilities is despicable in her opinion.

If your experience is negative then look to your personal choices in companions.

Pax,

By my count the woman haters are outnumbered 3 to one my normal folks. I know it's pathetic, but don't let them get to you. They're in the minority and are a product of their backgrounds.

[Yakko]

When my wife and I were first dating she was afraid of guns. Particularly pistols. We sat down and took apart my 1911. I showed her how everything worked and that the pistol could not fire until certain events were made to happen by a person, as in a round was chambered. Guns went from being things of mystery to be feared to machines that did a specific thing that they were designed for.

We celebrated our 10th anniversary in December.
We both have CCW permits.
She's a better shot than I am.

[Sungun09]

Just to avoid any serious misunderstanding, I told my girl friend , when we first started talking, uh, sweetly, that I had two NO COMPROMISE positions, the first concerned my FAITH, the second, my GUNS.

I still have my guns... hehehheh:)

She's still around and has gone to the range a couple of times with me.

[rnchick]

From my personal experiences, some women are scared of guns because of things that have happened to them in their past (not implying this is the case here - just giving a broader perspective for other women who have gone through things like I have). Granted I have never demanded that anyone "never bring that thing into my house", but I would have panic attacks at the site of a handgun. Thankfully wonderful friends helped desensitize me very slowly till I was able to handle, help clean and take apart such "vile things". I didn't have any desire to shoot them until years later - my progress into the gun world has been VERY slow, but steady. I have never been pushed by the people I care about - only the criminals who have forced me to see the need for protecting myself.

I think the best things my friends have done for me over the years have been to ask "What can I do to help you overcome this fear"...and go from there.

But again - I was never "that woman" who was clamboring for legislation, or forbade anyone access to my house based on someone's method of protection - I knew it was just my personal fears and past experiences.

[jlbraun]

All that aside, bravo for your maturity. Keep in mind though that your GF has years of conditioning behind her irrational fear of firearms and that it would be as arrogant of you to assume you’ve magically converted her with this one discussion as it is of the rock throwers to assume that all women are conniving and manipulative.

I agree. I'm not assuming victory - indeed, I find that I don't want to "win", I want to have something else that we both enjoy doing (in our own way, and to varying degrees). She turned me on to skiing off of 20' cliffs, and I'm hoping that firearms are something that her and I can enjoy together in that same way.

[paul45]

She's a trained killer.Please excuse my curiousity....what MOS is she ?? :eek:

[hso]

rnchick,

A friend and mentor of mine is married to someone that acknowledges that her severe discomfort at handling a handgun comes from emotional scars left behind from having her mother and brother kill themselves with handguns. She says she wants to learn to shoot but has the fear to overcome. He acknowledges her fears, but is so interested in her becoming comfortable with firearms that he's pushing me to "help" her. Odd that I would be put in the position of telling the both of them that they need to not rush and take some time. I've told the both of them that it takes a desire to learn that firearms are just tools and that they are tools that you can learn to use safely before you can begin to use one. Sounds like the approach you took would make for a good model. Thanks.

[rnchick]

Sounds like the approach you took would make for a good model. Thanks.

No problem - that's why I posted it ;)

[LadySmith]

Ajax22 is right about the kind of women in CA, they're all for making guns impossible to get and sending you to jail for carrying one unless you're a cop yet expect you to have it when the gangbangers surround you.
That's just flat-out wrong and makes me wonder what kind of women y'all hang around to give you such an incorrect impression (and why you're hanging around them in the first place). There are plenty of gun women out here in CA, and some in places you wouldn't expect. Don't judge us all by a few unfortunate experiences. It's attitudes like that (prejudiced misogynistic stereotyping) that keep ladies of certain calibers home cleaning their arsenals after a women-only shoot instead of mingling with like-minded males. :p

[LadySmith]

I just wanted to congratulate you on being strong enough to want to get over your fear. It's great that you have good friends to help you achieve such an admirable goal.
I was also afraid of those smaller-than-I-am hunks of metal, wood and plastic. Now I can say I got over that fear, and in a big honkin' way :D

[JoseM]

wow...that was much more tactful than how I put it with my wife (who's an anti).

I think I just said. "I want another gun"...."I'm going to teach our sons to shoot as soon as they're old enough"...and "get over it".


There's really two battles...one is trying to get her to convert and the other is keeping my rights. The second one wasn't negotiable (which is why I was blunt), but the first one will take some of that tact you showed;)

[jdkelly]

jlbraun,
You've been given a lot of advice and many of us have offered our opinions based on our own experience and bias.

If I could offer just one more piece of advice, it would be watch how this plays out over time. This could be a precursor to many of the disagreements you have in future.

It should be interesting to you to see if the words of wisdom you select today are as relevant in time.:)

Good luck with your relationship!


Respectfully,

jdkelly

[saltydog452]

Sometimes when I 'put my foot down', I later find that it has been nailed to the floor.

salty.

[Rugerlvr]

Quote:
She's a trained killer.
Please excuse my curiousity....what MOS is she ??

Well, that "trained killer" thing is kind of a joke between us. She was a Combat Medic, and is now an RN. She made Marksman on rifle, and made Sharpshooter in grenade tossin'.

Since my only formal shooting training was in JROTC and Boy Scouts, I guess she's got me beat. (However, I am a better shot.)

[c_yeager]

Yeah, Yeager, you're right -- women are all alike, and all of them are evil and manipulative.


I dont think I used the words "evil" or "manipulative", not was I reffering to all women but more specifically to anti-gun women who adhere to their beliefs despite the full knowledge that they are irrational. That is a special type of person, and yeah, I am generallizing the unholy hell out of them. If someone takes every effort to fit into an easily defined category I am not going to be the one to tell them that they are wrong.

Y'know, it occurs to me that the endless, knee-jerk misogyny on THR gets more on my nerves every year.


Perfectly understandable. The increasingly shrill cries for political correctness tend to get my goat every now and then too. Such is the price of having contact with the great unwashed public.

[pax]

Women are *masters* of the strategic withdrawal. Right now, she is Russia and you are a train full of jovial German soldiers heading to Stalingrad thinking they will be home in two weeks. Keep your wits about you and remember to pack your mittens, you got a lot of work ahead of you.
I dont think I used the words "evil" or "manipulative", not was I reffering to all women but more specifically to anti-gun women who adhere to their beliefs despite the full knowledge that they are irrational.
If being a "*master* of strategic withdrawal" isn't evil or manipulative, I apologize for misreading your apparently well-written rant.

If you didn't mean "women," then you shouldn't have said "women."

Words mean things. Despite being "shrill" and "PC," I'll continue to call people on it when they make offensive comments -- especially when I personally am included in the group at which the offensive comments are aimed.

pax

[hso]

not was I reffering to all women


You may have won the battle but remember one thing. Women are *masters* of the strategic withdrawal. Right now, she is Russia and you are a train full of jovial German soldiers heading to Stalingrad thinking they will be home in two weeks. Keep your wits about you and remember to pack your mittens, you got a lot of work ahead of you.


Then you should have said "Some women ..." or "Anti women ..." instead of splattering all women with the broadest brush. No different than antis painting Gun owners as criminals or blood thursty because some disfunctional people with guns are.

[c_yeager]

Heavens forbid that anyone should consider the context in which a statement is made. I wonder why noone starts screaming in my ear when I make a sweeping generalization about "men" or "criminals" which i do on a nearly daily basis, and I am nowhere near being alone.

Of course, as we all know a statement is only politically incorrect when it includes a group that a person of a particular mindset belongs to it.

Words mean things. Despite being "shrill" and "PC," I'll continue to call people on it when they make offensive comments -- especially when I personally am included in the group at which the offensive comments are aimed.


Perhaps if the word "especially" were replaced with "exclusively" this statement would be a little more accurate.

[pax]

Forget it. I'm done here.

Yeager, if you'd read even a smattering of my posting history, you'd know what a damnable lie it is.

pax

[Henry Bowman]

Mr Yeager,

I have never met you, but have read your posts with interest for several years now. Some I agree; some not.

In this case, you are fighting a losing battle. You will not and cannot win. Quit now. You may not choose to reflect and apologize (though you should), but you should quit.

You have pushed a button on pax. A button you may not have known was there, but you pushed it. Trust me, in this particular case, that same button exists on a lot of people (and not exclusively on women). It is not a matter of PC. It is a matter of OT.

Pax has quit. Perhaps she chose to give up on you. You should quit. Now. You can call it a win, a loss, or a draw. Call it what ever you wish. Pax has the power to lock this thread, but has not. If I had the power to do so, I would.

[vynx]

jlbraun - great so far. Now you need to get her to not be afraid of guns or guns in the house. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and most likely don't need my advice but, here goes anyway.

It may be a good idea (you are probably way ahead of me on this) to let her know how you make your firearms "safe". This can mean when you are gone so you don't come home to a burglar holding your gun on you. Also, to mean when friends family, aquainteces (sic) vist so they don't get into anything they shouldn't. If children visit, etc.

I have found that most gun fears are unfounded fears of the unknown and false information. If your friend learns how guns can't just go off by themselves or won't fire if they are dropped and she sees how you safely store them, etc. you may be able to help her overcome her fears.

Good luck and good post.

[rero360]

good job brother and I wish you best of luck,

I tried converting an anti girlfriend earlier this year, it was a big no go, so I called that quits, but I recently met a girl who is absolutely phenominal, she actually approached me, all because of my motorcycle, we have a ton in common, we take rides on my bike all the time, we cook for each other and all that, I spent the night at her parent's house last night now that we're back from school, and I carried my 1911, I asked her if it would be a problem to bring it into the house, didn't want to offend parents. no need, dads a gun nut too

long story short, she had me unload it so she could check it out, very cool, she had me give her some tips on stance and grip, she told me if I had brought more ammo with me she would have skipped us having some fun to go out and shoot:D , now I'm all up for both, but next time I go down I'll have to bring enough ammo. :D

[Srigs]

Now get her a 22LR rifle to plink with and you can start the conversion process.

I just remind my wife the cost of the horses each month and she can't say a thing! :evil:

[jlbraun]

Guns in the house are OK, but... no ammunition in the house, car, or shed. The previous comment about boundaries has been turned - it's now "using guns for defense falls into both our spheres because it affects me too" and is using this to say that because one of us (her) says that using guns for defense is bad, no usable guns should be in our (future) house because one person is uncomfortable with it. She says that she does not see herself changing, and that CCW is right out.

She's afraid that if someone did come in the house, that "someone would die if there's a gun". She's very empathic and can't stand the fact of anyone dying. She said, "well, you can just threaten them with the empty gun, and because I know it's empty that would be OK." She doesn't understand that you can't rely on the goodness of a robber to not kill you.

We've done the entire rotation between "guns are a human right", "heck, even the Dalai Lama and the Pope said that using guns to defend yourself is OK", "I'm owning and storing them safely", "I'm a responsible person, and can be trusted with guns", and she says "You're not compromising. I've compromised so much and you're not budging." "Compromise, compromise, compromise" is all I hear, when "compromise" means "you can't use guns for defense" and this is unacceptable.

Lastly, I have said "Fine. I would be OK with not using guns for defense, but only if you accept that I won't defend you if your life is in danger, because you have removed the tools with which I might have done so", and that gave her pause. "My parents have always said that they would give their life for one another", she says.

Our relationship has gone three years strong, but I have come to the conclusion that I may have to let her go over this. I can't stand where this is going. We agree on all other things, but this is the sticking point.

Darnit. :(

[Anthony]

A friend of mine went through the same thing shortly after we both graduated from high school together. Of course, he was born to be henpecked so he never stood up for his shooting interests.

My compliments to you for standing up for your beliefs even when many would compromise out of the unpleasant situation.

I've been accused of being way too organized on some things, but I asked my wife about guns on our first date. She said she really had no opinion either way. So then I asked her about her philosophical position on killing criminals in self defense and we were squarely on the same page.

Today, almost 15-years later, she is an NRA member and a gun owner herself.

If you do break things off with Your current girlfriend I would suggest you ask all of your future love interests the same questions I did on the first date. Every single one of them. If they give the wrong answer enjoy the evening, be pleasant, and never call them again. It is easier in the long run and will save you a lot of money, pain, and heartache.

[tellner]

jlbraun, would you mind an observation from a guy who has been married a fairly long time?

When you "lay down the law" and force a woman to "retreat" you haven't won. You've gotten something, but there will be a price either in favors later or damage to the relationship. Understand that she did something that she was uncomfortable with and which frightened her for you. She considers that a major concession on her part and will look to see how you behave. If you decide that you've made her back down on one thing so you can force the next issue you will be without a girlfriend very soon. And she will tell her girlfriends. Word will get around and you will be a very lonely man. If you tell her (I can't stress that part enough) how much you appreciate what she did and promise to hold up your end by being considerate when something is important to her it will strengthen what you have.

For the love of G-d don't try to win points with logic. Pascal said very wisely "The heart has its own logic, which knows nothing of logic."

[jdkelly]

jlbraun,
While you may think that the point is settled but I think it’s unlikely that you are done negotiating. If her fear is based on emotion rather then logic then I would expect that every time something changes in your relationship you(r) girl friend will reopen the negotiations based on that change (moving in together, engagement, marriage, children). Logic will not over ride emotion.

If you think you've won, then you've lost!


Respectfully,

jdkelly ---Me from May 16th

jlbraun,
I'd hate to see you break up. On the other hand this may be a precursor of your future together. By that I mean spending a tremendous amount of time over a long period time on something that should be settled in 30 seconds.


Good luck!



Respectfully,

jdkelly

[jlbraun]

tellner,

Thanks for your insight. You are correct in that she has made a major concession - firearms scare the #$(& out of her, and having them around but unloaded is indeed a major concession for her, and I will make sure that I recognize that.

However.

If I'm the one that buys, owns, trains with, shoots, stores, learns about, and keeps safe the firearms - all of these are actions that I perform - why does the final decision on ownership of firearms at all suddenly fall into her territory? Why do her feelings take precedence over my logic, multitudinous facts, and perfectly rational desire for security? This does not make sense to me.

The way I see it, she doesn't want to meet the "scary things" in life and I have expressed a willingness to do so - but her feelings shoud still take precedence over mine because she says so. That's a double standard.

[Oleg Volk]

Life is too short to waste more than a few minutes with irrational, psychotic or manipulative people. I only wish I had figured this out sooner. (Clarification -- not referring to anyone mentioned in this thread, just speaking in general terms.)

Having poor communication skills in the past, I had persisted in relationships where I wasn't sure if the faults were mine or hers. In most cases, the faults were on both sides. Finally, I learned to communicate better. One of the yields of clear communication is a pretty good certainty if the partner shows traits incompatible with me. Once such traits show, a polite but purposeful retreat is in order.

Psycho behavior is not limited to women. Men just tend to be less patient and show it sooner and more overtly. I'd say that, of all the people I know, fewer than thirty have no exhibited disqualifying personal traits. What the "mysogynists" are saying that they are trying to be careful. Pathologies of men are of no interest to them because they aren't planning to date or marry other men.

Deferring confrontations is something that we do also. What do you think all the plans to convert the spouses or dates to RKBA are? The other point is that men, on average, have more relationship leverage relative to women as both get older. Women, however, get more legal leverage if married with children. Thus men try to fight their battles while they have leverage and women defer it till they have a stronger hand. That's not saying anything bad about either, just noting my general observations.

For myself, I will also note that I hold one of THR's moderators as an example of an admirable lady...had there been any physical attraction, I would have proposed by now. Unfortunately, my appreciation of her persona is purely intellectual. So some people do meet my so-called standards, I just haven't met many of them. Moreover, I do not yet meet my own standards for suitability for marriage and family, so I am deferring serious committments until such time as I am happy with myself.

[tellner]

Oleg, that's just plain beneath you. She's "irrational, psychotic or manipulative" because she has fears, expresses them but is willing to compromise?

[bruss01]

The girl has indeed done a strategic withdrawal.
Guns in the house are OK, but... no ammunition in the house, car, or shed. The previous comment about boundaries has been turned - it's now "using guns for defense falls into both our spheres because it affects me too" and is using this to say that because one of us (her) says that using guns for defense is bad, no usable guns should be in our (future) house because one person is uncomfortable with it. She says that she does not see herself changing, and that CCW is right out.

She's afraid that if someone did come in the house, that "someone would die if there's a gun". She's very empathic and can't stand the fact of anyone dying. She said, "well, you can just threaten them with the empty gun, and because I know it's empty that would be OK." She doesn't understand that you can't rely on the goodness of a robber to not kill you.

We've done the entire rotation between "guns are a human right", "heck, even the Dalai Lama and the Pope said that using guns to defend yourself is OK", "I'm owning and storing them safely", "I'm a responsible person, and can be trusted with guns", and she says "You're not compromising. I've compromised so much and you're not budging." "Compromise, compromise, compromise" is all I hear, when "compromise" means "you can't use guns for defense" and this is unacceptable.

Lastly, I have said "Fine. I would be OK with not using guns for defense, but only if you accept that I won't defend you if your life is in danger, because you have removed the tools with which I might have done so", and that gave her pause. "My parents have always said that they would give their life for one another", she says.

Our relationship has gone three years strong, but I have come to the conclusion that I may have to let her go over this. I can't stand where this is going. We agree on all other things, but this is the sticking point.Darnit.

Her arguments are not rational, they are emotional. That's not to say that emotional arguments should carry no weight. They should, if you're talking about "my uncle was run over by a ford, so I can't stand driving/riding in a ford" or "I hate blue rooms... we can never have a blue room in the house". But we're talking about some heavy issues here... your right to keep and bear arms for defense, and your personal safety, and your responsibility to protect her. Having an empty weapon with no ammo available is not a compromise, it is complete surrender. Having a firearm, with the magazine full but not in the gun, would be a compromise. Having both the firearm and the magazine in a gunvault(tm) under lock and key, would be a compromise. Agreeing to carry only under certain circumstances, would be a compromise. A firearm with no bullets is like an ambulance with an empty gas tank. She's jeapordizing your life and her own with this foolishness.

Listen, I think people can talk and work out a lot of issues, if they can make reasonable accomodations or simply tolerate another's idiosyncracies. But what you have here is her total, irrational unwillingness to concede that you have a right to keep and bear a USABLE firearm, that defense against attack is both justifiable and moral, and that you need to put your life at unreasonable risk to defend her while she puts limits on your ability to do so.

When you think about it this way, it appears that this is a person who is unwilling to see and work with the universe THE WAY IT IS and instead insists on interacting with it based on HOW SHE WISHES IT WERE instead. You are staying with this person because she is sweet/cute/pretty/good-in-bed/funny/fun-to-be-around/whatever/all-of-the-above. My personal advice to you is that 5 or 10 years from now, this person is still going to be making decisions that affect you, which are not based in reality and do not take your wants & needs into account. Odds are she will not seem so cute/sweet/fun-to-be-around then. But of course that will be too late since you have a mortgage and a couple of kids together. :barf: If you grow a pair then and stand up for what you believe in (about ANYTHING) she'll just threaten divorce, take the kids and you spend the next 15 years paying child support and living in a van down by the river.

Keep a loaded gun in your bedside table. Get a CCW and use it every day. Do everything gun-wise that she doesn't want you doing. When she asks about it (or complains more likely) just say "Well I tried talking to you about it, and that was going nowhere, so I'm just going to do what I think is right and you can get used to it or leave". When she says that isn't fair or reasonable say "I tried to work out something fair and reasonable, but that didn't happen because you didn't know what fair and reasonable mean. The subject is no longer up for negotiation, sorry". If she throws a fit or threatens to break it off you reply "That brings me to my next topic, maybe we should start seeing other people". You can be a real b@stard about it, you've got nothing to lose at that point, and there is a slim chance that she will see your conviction about this issue and admire you for it. Being nice, sweet and accomodating is what many women think they want in a man. Some of them are surprised to find that having a man they CAN'T control is even more of a turn-on. Either way, you will be better off than you are now - either she gets with the program, or you are free to begin the rest of your life with someone you can actually be happy with.

I've been young and in love and I know what it's like to make all kinds of justifications and ifs/buts/maybes when it comes to someone who really makes your heart sing. Trust me, the head is a much better judge of such things. No one here envies your position, but you have some hard choices to make and I think you've gotten some good advice from some good people here. Sometimes a situation can be turned around, a person's mind can be changed, but based on what you've told us I do not think this is one of those cases. There are plenty of girls/women out there who would love to have a man who believes in standing up against evil in a potent way, especially when it comes crashing thru the door in the middle of the night. Give it a little time, the right one will come to you when you're not looking.

If this is truly "the one" then a few weeks or months after you've broken up with her and moved out, she may call you some day and want to talk about getting back together. (YOU MUST NEVER CALL HER AFTER THE BREAKUP! And if she calls, you NEVER give her any idea that you'd consider getting together, unless she brings it up first - then you be lukewarm about it.) If you're not invoved with someone else by then, you may want to ask her to a date - at a shooting range. Her response will tell you everything you need to know on whether there is a future or not. Sometimes women change when you're away from them, whereas they wouldn't if you stayed. Think about it.

[Henry Bowman]

I see no willingness to compromise. Excluding ammo from the property makes whatever guns may be there as effective as a pencil sharpener (i.e., inert mechanical device) for self defense. She doesn't want a husband who will "die for her," but one who will "die near and just moments before her." That's pretty irrational.

[jdkelly]

+1 Henry Bowman
+1 Oleg Volk
-1 Tellner

Respectfully,

jdkelly

[the naked prophet]

Whatever you do, don't make her like guns! If you do, you'll have to buy her a pink Kel-Tec, and then a Glock 27, and then a Browning Hi-Power (the FN just won't do), and then an AR-15, and then... :neener:

[Black Knight]

Be careful. I remeber on another forum some guy's girlfriend wanted him to get rid of his after they broke up. She filed a false domestic abuse compliant through her lawyer. Took him forever to get it straightened out. In the meantime the court awarded her one of the two cars the guy personally owned which she wrecked and refused to have repaired. The court even confiscated his guns pending the outcome of the trial. His lawyer finally got the case kicked to a different Judge who saw it for what it was. If she moves in be careful. Good luck.

[jlbraun]

Point of order. We do not live together. We are discussing how things will work when and if we do live together.

[skidmark]

We are discussing how things will work when and if we do live together.

You already know how things will work when you live together. Now you need to decide if there will ever be an "if".

Three days, three years, or thirty years matters not one bit. If you cannot arrive at an agreement. compromise, consensus, resolution - call it what you like - and abide by it, then you have not completed the event. You may want to decide, for yourself and notwithstanding the amount of time already invested in the relationship, the energy you want to continue investing.

You like guns and want to have at least one loaded gun in the house. Your girlfriend does not like guns and does not want a loaded gun in the house. She will "allow" you to have an unloaded gun - but that might be changed later on depending on how she feels later on.

If you are truely firm in your belief, and your girlfriend will not or cannot accept that belief, then you have what D-I-V-O-R-C-E lawyers call irreconsilable incompatability. That means there will never be a resolution that both of you can live with and abide by.

Please see the :banghead: smily, and think of how your head will feel some time in the future when you realize that wall is NOT going to break just because you want it to.

I hope you avoid living out the various horror stories others have had to endure, but history tells me your odds will be slim indeed. However, I am sure we will all be here to hear your tale of woe and will comiserate with you - but there may be some "I told you so"s said.

stay safe.

skidmark

[RioShooter]

Nice to see a guy with balls in this "men holding their wives' purse and shaving below the neck because their girl told them to" kinda world we're living in!

I hold my wife's purse because she asks me to, not because I'm told to. I also consider it the considerate thing to do based on the circumstance.

IMHO, men that don't want to be seen holding a purse have a problem with their masculinity. Maybe that's why they like guns.:evil:

[Oleg Volk]

Oleg, that's just plain beneath you. She's "irrational, psychotic or manipulative" because she has fears, expresses them but is willing to compromise?

Tellner,

Sorry I wasn't more clear -- I wasn't referring to his girlfriend or to anyone specific. I was speaking in general terms.

[50caliber123]

no one will ever change. By that I mean if no one will change their opinions or beliefs for me, why should I for them? I won't give up my guns for any woman to make her happy. Love me or leave me - the way I am. It works both ways.

[Oleg Volk]

A helpful (?) analogy:

I am afraid of riding motorcycles. If I married a woman who liked to ride bikes, I'd have a hard time keeping up with her hobby. I would also take a very dim view of her giving rides to my kids except under the most controlled conditions without other traffic. My views on that may or may not be very rational, but they are strongand pretty well set. I feel similarly about horses.

That issue ought to be discussed with mutual olerance and respect. If no compromise can be reached before marriage, it would likely cause severe problems later. If the riding hobbie came up later in life, it maybe hard to discuss but also not avoidable. If you have the forewarning of such an incompatibility, work it out now.

['Card]

Deferring confrontations is something that we do also. What do you think all the plans to convert the spouses or dates to RKBA are? The other point is that men, on average, have more relationship leverage relative to women as both get older. Women, however, get more legal leverage if married with children. Thus men try to fight their battles while they have leverage and women defer it till they have a stronger hand. That's not saying anything bad about either, just noting my general observations.
No offense, but that's a remarkably astute observation to come across while reading a gun forum - although you may want to keep in mind the Zen principle of "Kill the Buddha", Oleg. What a person believes may say more about the person than it does the actual state of affairs.

[gitarmac]

This is about more than just guns, it's about being a rational grown up adult and she sounds more like a child. When this thread first started she didn't think a gun would help her if she were threatened with rape, it wouldn't do any good anyway. Now she is afraid that someone will get killed if you are defending yourself.

These are the types of women that testify against people protecting themselves against violence from crimianals. The instance I am thinking of is a grocery store robbery that was stopped by a CCW holder. A customer was more afraid of the defender than the criminal doing the crime.

And that's why crime proliferates in our society, because of the very attitude of your girlfriend. I cant' figure out why you would have any respect for her anymore.

This is a good time to cut your losses, it isn't going to get any better, you aren't going to "fix" her. This isn't somebody you want raising your children. There are more mature women out there, ones you don't need to fix. get out and meet them.

[torpid]

As far as couples go, she sure doesn't sound like someone who will stand by you and watch your back if things got rough. If a mate chooses to be a dependent instead of a partner, then they shouldn't meddle with your methods of being the protector, and should step back and let you do it (as it's you by default that's going to be putting your life on the line alone in that type of relationship).

I prefer an equal partner who's willing to team up with me if things get ugly.
(Not that I'm unwilling to step up to be the "shield", but it's nice to know that there's another person interested in keeping us both safe).

I agree with the observation that currently, this (in my opinion) illogical woman doesn't sound like the kind of mother I'd want "protecting" my children down the road.

[Baba Louie]

"Compromise, compromise, compromise" is all I hear, when "compromise" means "you can't use guns for defense" and this is unacceptable.
Survival of the fittest (bad grammar, that) means something to you but has, it appears, very little reality to your friend. It could be that her emotional state truly realizes that she cannot, could not, will not, be able to cope with a life and death violent situation should one confront her. This may even extend towards protecting any future children born to you, and that'd be a sad thing... but it's also only conjecture on my part. Her decision to strip you of one of the tools readily available to protect your world leaves you (both) with a decision to face.

Life is short.

Three years of companionship were enjoyable (I assume).

Self Preservation should not require compromise (except in choosing caliber and delivery method)... The male of our species has an inclination towards fight, as opposed to flight, when justice and protection of loved ones is on the line. So be it. Continue on a logical path, allowing her the freedom(s) she chooses.

It's really her choice, as I see it. I can only hope nothing wicked ever crosses her path in her life. At some point, she might realize that death (and sometimes unwanted violence) is a guaranteed part of life, even down to the food we eat. Unless she only eats fruit that falls from a tree, something must die in order to sustain her life. She might fear death (and violence) to the point of never actually living a fulfilled life.

Or... it might be a control issue.

Life is short. This isn't a dress rehearsal.

Good luck amigo. No Deguello can be a messy affair.

[tellner]

respectfully, jdkelley, this has turned into a typical guy bitchfest. Maybe guns are a make-or-break issue for some relationships. For others it might be insignificant things like children or religion.

But anyone who isn't foursquare for guns is psychotic or manipulative? Person of African ancestry, with your permission! This is typical of the Altmeyer's RWA subservient follower personality type - anyone who doesn't believe exactly what I do and like what I like isn't quite human. It's a stupid, vicious, short-sighted way of looking at the world.

[American By Blood]

Either go ahead with what you're doing and explain to her that you simply don't respect her irrational fears or dump her. Her reaction to this will tell you where you stand in the relationship.

My experience with women (uh oh... somebody's about to generalize...) is that everything is negotiable if you meet their primal needs. If they admire you and you can make them feel safe, provided for, valued, pretty, satisfied, and gently lead they'll generally come around to just about anything reasonable. No need for violence or other behaviors that the teevee caricatures masculinity with. Old-fashioned gentlemanly behavior will do the trick with most women who have outgrown the college phase of not shaving their underarms and wearing hiking boots when not in the woods.

And before people assume that I'm some sort of chronically single misogynist I'll mention that I've been dating the same woman for close to four years and that she has a career, master's degree, and other marks of accomplishment. Countless generations of evolution have left us all with a whole lot more than just opposable thumbs.

[Lupinus]

yep, the rip the band aid off approach is the best one, either it'll rip the cut back open and be a total failure or it will work and it will have the desired result and get it over and done with without a lot of agony and waiting while it only gets worse and drawn out.

Sit her down, lay it out, explain how it is gonna be, my way or the highway don't like it get out.

[gitarmac]

Saying she will "let" you have the guns but not the ammo or not let you use the guns to defend yourself or her :confused: is pretty much the same as not letting you have the guns. She is sort of putting you to the same ultimatum but in a round about way.

Guns are not knick knacks, they use bullets to kill people with, they were not invented for a target game. They are a good tool to have at your disposal when diplomacy fails.

[gitarmac]

tellner quote:
respectfully, jdkelley, this has turned into a typical guy bitchfest. Maybe guns are a make-or-break issue for some relationships. For others it might be insignificant things like children or religion.

But anyone who isn't foursquare for guns is psychotic or manipulative? Person of African ancestry, with your permission! This is typical of the Altmeyer's RWA subservient follower personality type - anyone who doesn't believe exactly what I do and like what I like isn't quite human. It's a stupid, vicious, short-sighted way of looking at the world.







I'm not a guy and it's not about guns, it's about permission to value yourself enough to stand up for yourself. His girlfriend has an idealistic childlike way of looking at the world that is bound to end badly down the road. To ignore that is only to set yourself up for even more heartbreak later on.

When couple get serious they SHOULD agree on core issues and have simular outlooks on life, like abortion, children, religion, ect. The mature thing to do is get past infatuation and thinking with your hormones, get past the puppies and fuzzy pink bunnies, and try to imagine what it's going to be like down the road. If more people did that there would be less broken families when down the road they realize that past the sex and shopping at the mall they don't have what it takes to make it, only now there are children involved.

I'm pushin' 50 and many of my friends are raising their grandchildren because their offspring started pumping out kids before they got to know each other. It should have been obvious from the start things werent' going to work out but the people involved were not mature enough to do the right thing, break it off, before it was too late.

[Greybeard7]

jlbraun:

You may want to change the topic on your post, as this does not seem to be successful to me. Sad, yes, successful, no.

It is sad that this appears to be the end of a three year relationship. You seem to be considering the possibility that shooting is more than a hobby, but also a Constitutional right that allows you the means to defend your life if necessary. Her refusal to allow you the tools to defend your life, if necessary, says some things that are less than pleasant. It appears that this is becoming a power struggle and a focal point in your relationship. If it is just a power struggle, then she has certainly picked the right topic to decide the future of the relationship. If she prevails in this, when you are considering the potential need to defend your and her lives, no other debate between you will be as important.

If she believes so strongly against self defense that a hypothetical, anonymous criminals life is worth more than yours, then you have discovered something more important than anything she has ever said to you. Your life means less than her than her belief in pacifism. Having that belief, she will probably NOT have the means to change her mind if she is ever faced with being raped and/or murdered. I sincerely hope that she never faces that, but without the means of self defense, she has already made that decision.

"The previous comment about boundaries has been turned - it's now "using guns for defense falls into both our spheres because it affects me too" and is using this to say that because one of us (her) says that using guns for defense is bad, no usable guns should be in our (future) house because one person is uncomfortable with it. She says that she does not see herself changing, and that CCW is right out."

From this comment, I infer (whether right or wrong), that if "using guns for defense" is wrong, her position is that it is better for you to die than the assailant. Unfortunately, regardless of her attempting to take the "higher moral ground", she has sided with criminals and killers and your life is subject to their discretion if they forcefully enter your life or home. Not acceptable to me, but not my call.

"She's afraid that if someone did come in the house, that "someone would die if there's a gun". She's very empathic and can't stand the fact of anyone dying."

Well, if someone enters your home illegally and they have a gun, someone could very well die. There is a very good possibility that someone will. Who it is could depend on your skills, firearms, and pure chance. It appears that her empathy goes to the intruder and not you. Her position, as I interpret that statement, is that the "someone" who would die should be you. Not acceptable to me, but not my call.

"she says "You're not compromising. I've compromised so much and you're not budging.""

Compromising your ability to defend yourself, regardless of the benefit she receives of being defended without taking any responsibility for her own safety, is, again, placing aggressors and lawbrakers lives above yours. Not acceptable to me, but not my call.

""My parents have always said that they would give their life for one another", she says."

Giving your life for her would be getting killed in her defense. Giving your life to a criminal without armed resistance is only making her rape and murder easier. I don't think she really understands what her parents said.

I'm sure that you care a great deal for this woman, and I'm truly sorry that it has come to this. My only consolation to you is that this issue may very well be saving you years of heartache, thousands of dollars, and many years of your life that could be spent with a woman who truly loves you and understands your desire to protect yourself and your family.

Good luck,

GB7

[JohnKSa]

Unless you're willing to give up the right to use firearms in self-defense, you're going to have to let her go.

It can go both ways, but IMO the most likely scenario--even if you get your concessions now-- is that SHE'S gonna lay down the law when kids come into the picture... Coworker of mine lost all his guns when his wife got pregnant. What was he gonna do--walk out on his pregnat wife? She was adamant and totally unwilling to negotiate. At that point, you're stuck. If you try to get stubborn, all she has to do is call the cops and say you hit her--you'll HAVE to get rid of your guns and you'll never own another as long as you live.

Some possibilities:

She doesn't want guns around because she doesn't trust you or doesn't trust you around guns. (Not compatible with a long term relationship.)

She doesn't want guns around because she has an irrational fear of guns. (Unassailable with logic and incompatible with your philosophy.)

She doesn't want guns around because she doesn't trust herself around guns. (Scary.)

[damyankee]

I have 3 guns, USP, AR15 and an AK and I am going into LE. Girlfriend hates them, even though her brother is a marine (women... go figure). But she would never insist I get rid of them. Grats to you though for "standing your ground" :evil:

[Hawkmoon]

She's afraid that if someone did come in the house, that "someone would die if there's a gun". She's very empathic and can't stand the fact of anyone dying. She said, "well, you can just threaten them with the empty gun, and because I know it's empty that would be OK." She doesn't understand that you can't rely on the goodness of a robber to not kill you.
Frankly, it's time to sit this chick down and explain to her that when strange men wearing hoods or masks break into occupied houses or apartments in the middle of the night, very likely someone WILL be killed. The entire purpose of your having a LOADED gun is to ensure that the person(s) who die(s) is the bad guy(s), not the happy couple in their love nest. A "home invasion" that does not result in the occupants being severely beaten, raped, sodomized, and or killed is actually rather unusual. When people break in while nobody's home, it's called "burglary."

When there are occupants in the home, it's something else.

In fairness to the young lady, I am sure that ïn her mind she has made significant compromises. In fact, she hasn't given you much besides the ludicrous suggestion to wave an empty pistol at an assailant ... or multiple assailants.

Time to move on. The sooner you start looking for another woman, the sooner you'll find one. Throw this one back in the pond.

[Hoploholic]

JL...cut and run. You will never change this girl's mind and if you enter into legal union or cohabitation with her bad things might very well happen. Women have extraordinary and abusive legal power over males. If she wants the guns out of the house all it takes is one call to the law-dawgs stating that you yelled at her and threw a plate against the wall. You will get your time in court, but you will lose...your right to ever own firearms again. You may actually share mutual love, but neither one of you will ever be happy with the compromise. You are diametrically opposed on a heated cultural issue. Part ways as kindly as possible if you do not want heart wrenching pain in your life.

For those of you who are of the bent, I am not a misogynist. I am a realist and a well versed student of life. Reality is not always sugar plums and rainbows, and wishing it so does not make it so. Bring your rightous indignation and flames if you must but know that you are only wasting your time. I have made my own conclusions and they will not be swayed by vehm or venom

[gulogulo1970]

I find some of these arguments too complicated in the fact that you do not have to obey her. It is as simple as that and in so doing make her leave the relationship over your guns.

"I don't want guns in the house," should be answered with tough, live with it or goodbye. True equals in a relationship never demand one obey the other.

I'll believe this til the day I die, that real love would never be destroyed over something as trivial as this. If it was destoyed then what did you have?

[damyankee]

"I am a realist and a well versed student of life. Reality is not always sugar plums and rainbows, and wishing it so does not make it so." -hoploholic

+10!! I have been involved in at least 10 sh%$&* incidents (only one involving guns) that were not my fault other than standing my ground, others out there know that's how it goes :D

[Hawkmoon]

I suppose I should mention that my wife also hates guns. However, she knows they are in the house. More important, she knows they were in the house before she arrived, so she can probably intuit that an ultimatum will result in their being here after she leaves.

[rangerruck]

the kittens are even now rejoicing!

[gitarmac]

No, he doesn't have to obey her - yet, but if the relationship drags on and they get hitched the balence of power will change, just like the previous poster said.

The operative word here is "compromise". That means she is morally against guns and self defense, she so much as said so. This isn't something a couple can compromise on, there is either a mutual understanding or there isn't. If there isn't sooner or later there is going to be a situation and this fella is going to be on the losing end of the deal.

People that cannot understand why a person should defend themselves against crime and evil cannot be reasoned with and it is useless to try. You cannot use logic against emotion. People that are guided by emotion don't have to give reasons for what they think or feel, they just have "feelings". This is an issue in which there should be agreement, not a compromise.

I'm a woman and I have given up on reasoning with women like this, I cannot fathom why a man would put up with it. It will be a future weapon. When she starts "feeling" threatened by some imaginary transgression he will have no choice but to succomb to her will. It would be simple for her to set him up to look like a nutjob because she will believe it. Her feelings to her are real no matter how illogical they are.

Just tell her you think y'all should start seeing other people, or need some time apart or something. Say it and mean it.

[Hawkmoon]

Pay heed to what gitarmac just wrote. I don't even know her and I think she's a smart lady.

The point about trying to refute emotion with logic is especially on the mark. Lemme give you a minor but revealing example of how this works:

When my first ill-advised marriage was already in trouble (but not TOO deeply ... yet), my wife asked me how to spell a word. It happened to be a word that I know how to spell, so I spelled it for her. She said she disagreed. I explained that SHE had asked ME, and that the question could be resolved by looking in the dictionary. Her response was, "You think you're smarter than I am, and I hate that. I have a right to my own opinion."

Well, yes -- in matters of opinion, I do believe rather fervently that everyone has a right to their own. I often wish that other people's opinions of the appropriate sound level for horrible noises mascarading as music were more congruent with mine ... but I digress. How to spell a word is not subject to opinion, it is a matter of fact. The dictionary isn't going to say "It's spelled like this except when Debbie feels like spelling it some other way."

Likewise, what happens to the occupants of a home if they are invaded is not subject to opinion. The ONLY question, if you are not armed and prepared to offer a defense, is whether you'll both be killed, one killed and the other badly beaten, or (best case) you'll both be badly beaten but alive.

If the girl cannot understand that ... if she somehow thinks that ANY of those outcomes is preferable to using a gun to stop an invasion/assault ... she is an incurable space cadet and you will be very VERY unhappy if you continue the relationship.

[Byron Quick]

I reckon my handling of similar situations is not conducive to forming long term relationship...judging from the track record to date.

My date says,"No firearms will ever be allowed in my house."
Me,"I'll never darken your doorway."

Woman at work I'm asking out is a hunting fanatic. Not just hunting, she jumps right into the butchering.

There would still be arguments about firearms in a relationship with her, though...how many can we buy now, which ones, and whose are they...there's problems no matter who you wind up with.

[NineseveN]

Stand your ground, period. Tell her that those that force others into ultimatums actually make the choice themselves.

There is no room for meeting someone half-way here. If you asked if you could sodomize her regularly and she was against that, I sincerely doubt that she'd compromise even if you gave emotional reasons or very compelling logic. That's a boundary; when someone respects you, they leave the boundaries alone. Her saying that you having a gun affects her is a selfish line to draw, everyone's decisions about nearly everything have an impact on someone, most often someone they are intimate with, but it’s still the individual’s choice to make (and on the other side of the fence, to accept).

If she were to tell you that she didn't want you to believe in God/Bhudda/Krom/Kthulu and instead you should worship Gaeia because that's what she believes and she's not supposed to be intimate with a non-believer, what would your answer be?

Whatever you'd decide, that's the aspect of your character that defines the line you're willing to cross when it comes to your morals and principles. Some things cannot be and should not be compromised on. If she doesn't like guns, she shouldn't be forced to buy them, touch them, carry them or be taken to the range to shoot them; respect her boundaries. But, she also has to let you make your own decisions. If she doesn't, then her personal feelings are held in a higher regard than her respect for you and the relationship...move on and let her find someone that's just like she wants them to be.

Good luck.

[Rich K]

I'd let her go. She has no respect for you or your beliefs, and it would seem, no self respect either. my ex gave me the old ' either the guns go or I go' speech, and she was gone fsaster than you can say jack robinson. Same thing with a couple of women since. My responsibility as a man includes protecting my female companions, as well as myself. The best way to do that is to be aware and armed. If they don't appreciate that, then they are not the one for me. Quit banging your head on the wall, it will just give you a headache.

[HerrWolfe]

Bail out. Totally wrong mind set regarding guns and you will loose. She has something you want, and will hold it over your head. You cannot get it legally elsewhere or if you do she will take everything you have, so you will give in. Its two different worlds, men and women, not one world shared 50% each, and if these two differnt worlds co-exist, it works great and is wonderful. She will give in for now for the relationship, read as found one that can support me like I think I want, at least maybe until I can possibly find one better. She will reason she can fix you later, and she will, one way or the other. Also, if you baiol out, she will come around to your way of thinking, but fasely, don't give in. Move if you must.
I posted this before reading the previous posts. You are getting some sage advice.

[Black Knight]

Cut your losses now. A good lasting relationship is based on trust. as said by others it sounds as though she does not trust you. Let her go live in that fairy world she is in,, while you can live in the real world. She will never see herself worthy of you or your protection. This type of person believes that criminals are saints and defenders are satan. You can most certainly find better. I found my wife when I was not looking for a relationship. It seems the best find us.

[rbernie]

Let's set aside all of the emotional issues related to finding out that a Potentially-Significant-Other might be fundamentally and diametrically opposed to some core belief structures of yours, and be horribly practical for a minute. Are you comfortable entering into a legal contract (which is what marriage legally amounts to) with someone who would then be in a position to take possession of and sell/destroy the disputed property, and who would be (in many states) legally empowered to do so?

If you can't get solid irrefutable and nonemotional agreement on the disposition of the firearms now, you are REALLY rolling the dice trying to make this relationship work.

[romma]

The last century or so "civilizied" society has had overall an unprecedented period of tranquility and safety. As our society as it is now, begins to crumble with the ever encroaching poverty and urban decay, some of these "Bliss-Ninny Fairy-Tale" folks will begin to be enlightened... This will be at the cost of a great many of them at first before a survival instinct kicks in.

[WinchesterAA]

Ahh.. I like this thread! In the same situation as the starter right now, although when she said she didn't want me to have guns I dumped her, but she called back later and explained her points and whatnot so I halfass took her back but we're not nearly as serious as we were before.

[jlbraun]

I believe we are broken up.

She cited her fears of accidents (kid finding it, kid shooting someone else accidentally, kid shooting someone else intentionally, kid shooting self intentionally, me shooting her accidentally, etc.) as the reasons we shouldn't have guns in the house. I said "people have a right to defend themselves and their families, but people in general do not have a right to feel safe. If you decide that you don't want this relationship based on that, remember that I said I would give up my life to protect yours. What other boyfriend has ever said that to you?"

She walked away without saying anything.

:(

[AJ Dual]

Don't let up, whatever happens it's for the best. You are obviously young, so don't let your feelings that she's the "only one" etc. get to you. Have those feelings, you can't fight them, but make decisions with your head.


I didn't do enough, but what little "laying down the law" I've done has been enough to save my guns and my sanity during all the "stages", when the issue comes up between us.

- Dating
- Getting Engaged
- Moving in Together
- Getting Married
- Having Kids.

She can never argue that she didn't know about my collection, my belief in self-defense, and my shooting going into our relationship, or at any stage since when she tried to press the issue. And it's an effective argument stopper.

Although, I don't hold a lot of respect for how she feels about my guns as she's all over the map about them and very inconsistent, ranging everwhere from pro, to neutral, to anti, depending on her mood.

[BobCat]

jlbraun,

Deep breath, let it out slowly.

Been following this thread since its inception and wondered why no one ever pointed out that there are a lot of people who, never having had any experience with violence, home invasions, or any kind of attack, do not *really* believe such things are possible.

There is a mindset that says, if you prepare for a disaster, you will precipitate one. It is irrational, magical thinking - making sure there is air in your spare tire is asking for a flat; having a first-aid kit makes you accident prone; taking a CPR class will bring on a heart attack.

This attitude is reinforced in that some (probably not many - none that I know) persons who regularly carry may be prone to get into altercations they could have avoided (again: no one I know). There is a saying that one should never go anyplace armed that one would be afraid to go unarmed.

This is a long-winded way of saying the lady is afraid to confront the reality of someday actually being faced with someone who wants to hurt her. Many people go through life without ever being in a life-threatening situation. Actually thinking about, and preparing for, something as "unthinkable" as a home invasion is "creepy" to these people because it makes the home invasion real to them, and that is uncomfortable.

She is young. I think maybe both of you are young. Time and experience may temper her fears; or maybe not, maybe she will live a long, happy life in her condition-white cocoon.

It is not up to you to damage her unrealistic outook; it is up to you to respect her feelings and help her confront her fears, and slay her dragons, *if and when she asks you to do so* - and it is up to you to look for someone more compatible with whom to share your future.

Good luck in your quest, and don't count her out of the picture for several weeks yet - she might just pick the newspaper up and read about an incident of the exact thing you wish to arm yourself against, and finally get the point.

Regards,
Andrew

[gulogulo1970]

Sorry to hear that, three years is a long time.

But chin up, there are other fish in the sea. Hope you find one that respects you and your views.

[romma]

My Girlfriend and I have two foster children, she has two adopted children, and when we got together I had just gotten my permit. Shortly after I had her go get hers. This woman is practically neurotic making sure I lock my weapons when they are not secured on me. She doesn't own a gun herself, but accepts that I not only own several, I am also prepared to use them if needed. The night we had the "Katrina survivor" crash into our house high on crack-cocaine and alcohol at 2am was all the proof she needed there. I'm not bragging about this, merely pointing out that if she had any doubts about needing one before, then her questions were answered for her.

[NineseveN]

Sorry to hear that jbraun, but keep your chin up. This probably feels like the whole relationship wasted your time and that you may not find someone with the same or better qualities that you found in the anti-ex-girlfriend, but just keep yourself together and learn from this relationship.

With the next girl (and there will be a next one no doubt), you need to get your boundaries out of the way early in the relationship, probably much earlier than you think. My rule (when I was single) was three dates. If, by the third date, I hadn't exposed the young lass to my boundaries (trust, honesty, guns, RKBA, survival, personal responsibility, religion etc...) it was do or die, the conversation HAD to be initiated. If I didn't feel comfortable enough to intiate it, the girl obviously wasn't "serious material" for me and that was that.

[stevelyn]

I think you are going to be better off without her in the long run. Pardon the pun, but I really think you just dodged a bullet on this one and saved a lot of grief for yourself in the future.

At least you found out now and can cut your losses rather than several kids, half your stuff and thousands $$$$$ in bank-busting court/attorney fees and lopsided child support and alimony payments later.

Find someone that accepts you and all your warts.

Run away from anyone who thinks they can or should change you, control you, improve you..........you is what you is.

[jlbraun]

OK, so she's come back after a week or so of not speaking to me and pouting to say "OK, I'd be OK with ONE loaded gun in the house that's locked in a safe in the bedroom, you practice with once a month, but no more than one gun, and no recreational shooting or concealed carrying everywhere. That minimizes what I feel is a risk of accident, while preventing you from not being able to protect me adequately in the event that someone broke into our future house." (The area we live in has a major meth problem.)

I haven't replied yet, saying I'm thinking about it. I think this represents a major giving in on her part, but it still isn't what I'd like (CCW, one rifle, one pistol, one shotgun).

Thoughts?

[Stiletto Null]

Jebus...

Boundary violation.

Controlling.

Bug the f*** out.

That would be my immediate reaction to such a demand.

[Oleg Volk]

I would be inclined to learn from this experience and move on. You are the best judge, but the issue here isn't the guns...it's her controlling approach. It would likely happen again on the same or on a different topic.

[.45FMJoe]

Yes, tell her how you feel. Simple as that. "No, I want 1x Each, I will practice when I want and I will carry when I feel the need. Those are my boundries, please do not throw away our love and relationship over something so trivial. I still love you, please think it over and get back to me."

Done.

[Anthony]

Dump her, move to Texas, and find a local girl.

Last time I checked over 20% of the CHLs issued here (TX) go to women.

[rbernie]

You are the best judge, but the issue here isn't the guns...it's her controlling approach. It would likely happen again on the same or on a different topic.That's what my Spidey-Sense tells me. I can see no good coming from this.....

[torpid]

OK, so she's come back after a week or so of not speaking to me and pouting to say "OK, I'd be OK with ONE loaded gun in the house that's locked in a safe in the bedroom, you practice with once a month, but no more than one gun, and no recreational shooting or concealed carrying everywhere. That minimizes what I feel is a risk of accident, while preventing you from not being able to protect me adequately in the event that someone broke into our future house." (The area we live in has a major meth problem.)

Yeah, sprinkled among her debatable "reasonable compromise" points are a couple of really big control issue warning flags for me.

.

[Grey54956]

If she's going to be controlled by her irrational fears, then things aren't going to get better. Tell her to buck up or get out. Either she tosses the irrational fear monkey off her back, or she doesn't.

You don't want to settle in with a woman that gives in to irrational fears, especially if those fears involve you.

Don't let her saddle you with her fears, then she's on your back, with a monkey on hers. Bad situation.

Tell her to grow up. You go shoot when you want. You'll keep the guns safely stored when not in use, but that's just because you're the responsible sort anyway. You'll keep as much ammo as you want. If she has a problem with any of that, drop her like a sack of potatos.

Tell her to get off her fear wagon and get with the program.

[limbaughfan]

i think most antis can be reasoned with,and if they cant keep um around for the fun of argueing.Thats my 2 cents,plus hell I love to argue with antis.

[Green Lantern]

My thoughts?

One loaded gun?
In a safe?
Only practice once a month?
No recreational shooting?
NO CCW?!?!

Well....do you really need to ask? This will NOT end well.

DUMP HER!

[Barbara]

You know, I'm thinking about my sister in law who doesn't love guns. I don't think she's ever even come close to telling her husband whether he can have any, where he can shoot them, whatever.

If he does anything that looks remotely unsafe, she yells at him. If he was to leave an unlocked gun attended around the kids, she'd probably beat him with it. She insists that any guns not under his control be locked up. She gripes when he spends money on guns she feels can be better spent on household repairs or whatever.

But she has never once told him what *he* can do with guns or about guns so long as it doesn't have a direct affect on the safety or well-being of their family.

To me, that's the difference. She doesn't have to like guns. She doesn't have to have one, or shoot one and if you don't respect her request to keep them locked up when you have kids, I'm good with her giving you an ultimatum.

But that's not what she's doing. She's controlling you, not asking that you control your guns.

[Greybeard7]

Maybe I'm just cynical, but when I read "our future house" my first reaction was what she really means is "her future house".

If you get married and buy a house, and the guns become a heated issue in the future, (which seems likely), it will be her house, and you will spend a LOT of money extricating yourself from the relationship. It doesn't take much inquiry to find out what usually happens to the male in divorce court. If guns are an issue, all she has to do is claim that she feels threatened by you and you could lose not only your guns but your right to own any firearm.

If she feels threatened by your firearms now, what do you think she will tell her attorney or the police in a divorce?

It looks like your choice is the woman or the guns. I seriously doubt that you will have both for very long if you choose this woman.

She isn't giving in, she's waiting to be in a more powerful position, and living together or getting married will assure that she has it.

Like many have already said, this is a control issue and you are very fortunate that it has come up now.

Get as far away from her as you can so you aren't tempted to go back. Immediately start looking for a partner that wants to share your life, not control it.

FWIW

GB7

[Hawkmoon]

I haven't replied yet, saying I'm thinking about it. I think this represents a major giving in on her part, but it still isn't what I'd like (CCW, one rifle, one pistol, one shotgun).

Thoughts?
Basically, what Green Lantern said.

The sad thing is, this probably really IS a major concession ... from her perspective. However, it is still ridiculous. How is that one unloaded gun sitting home in the safe going to help if you get carjacked on the way home from the movies? I don't know how good you are at shooting, but IMHO being TOLD that I can practice one time per month ... NO MORE ... doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the future of the relationship.

Yes, she has made what she feels is a concession -- but she simply doesn't understand that she has no right to control you. She does not comprehend that we live in a potentially dangerous world, and that the protected are not in a position to dictate to the protectors the terms of the protection. How did she conclude that the ONLY time you might ever need a gun is when you're both home at night?

It's tough to let go of a relationship in which you have invested three years, but this young lady is not willing to allow you to be yourself, or to be a man. That's a definite problem.

[NineseveN]

Bug out, she's willing to compromise, compromise as to what level she's going to control you, for now.

Love, integrity and respect cannot coexist in the same relationship as control. Bug out fast dude.

[Nickle]

Well, I've BTDT and recently. I'm getting divorced and was married 30 years. She wasn't anti-gun, but didn't like CCW or loaded guns in the house. She actually owned 2 handguns herself, a Glock 19 and a cheapie 22 pistol. She helped my father and I work gun shows even.

But, she was kind of controlling, and a miserable bitch on a moderately bad day (almost bi-polar, even).

Now, I'm currently in a good relationship with a sweet charming lady that accepts ALL my flaws. She shoots, hunts, has a 25 Auto pistol and a pre-64 Win 94, fishes, loves bikes and living in the North (the ex hated the North, she moved back to Arkansas). Current lady doesn't mind when I carry, either. She shoots that gun as well (M9 Beretta).

Dude, there's more fish in the sea, don't accept less than the best for you. She's definitely out there, mine was.

[jlbraun]

Hawkmoon, at least we're talking that a loaded gun at home is OK. It's just that "one gun, loaded in a bedside safe, no more other guns, no CCW" is what she thinks represents a compromise, when I don't think this is in her sphere at all. I agree in that I think her fears of accidents are what's driving her here to project her fears on me.

Sigh. Still thinking...

[thumper723]

Jbraun,

I am in what you describe, but 4 years post marriage.

She "didn't like" stuff, and tries to regulate what I do. If I had known how much she would try to control stuff, like you know NOW, I would have bugged out.

Now I am in a miserable situation, and my CO will trash my career if I file for the big D.

The way I am able to have my way most of the time is we have no kids, and she does not work. I drop the "you dont like it, file for divorce" when she tries to have UNREASONABLE controls. (Like demanding I transfer to a different department, because there is a Female pilot working for me now)

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Trust me, been there, and still there, but trying to leave with my career intact.

[thumper723]

Thankfully for me, guns are one of the things she does like, but the control issue comes up EVERYWHERE else it seems.

Work, Hobbies, Recreation, Your Friends. She will end up wanting at a minimum, veto power on all the above.

[Werewolf]

Sigh. Still thinking...If you're still thinking about it then you've already lost. Just sell what ever guns you've got, cut your nuts off and marry her.

Either that or just REALLY do what the title of this thread said you did - lay down the freaking law but even that is fraught with peril as others have noted. She may seem to accept your ultimatum but that won't mean diddly at the inevitable divorce proceedings and then it'll be the court cutting your nuts off. My advice to you is to end the relationship and get the heck out of Dodge NOW! Don't look back, don't call her or accept calls from her. If she sends you e'mail delete without looking at it and do the same with snail mail. Any other course of action will eventually lead to much misery for you (unless you do cut your nuts off and accept that she is your lord and master).

Your description of this woman can lead us to no other conclusion than she is a controlling monster who is compromising (not really) just long enough to get you where she wants you (nutless and under her thumb). I doubt if that is a place you really want to be.

Breaking off a relationship is always hard but as the saying goes time heals all wounds. If you marry this woman the wounds she can inflict at will will give lie to that saying as the consequences of what she can do can for all practical purposes never be undone.

Make a decision! We can't make it for you.

[bruss01]

Hawkmoon, at least we're talking that a loaded gun at home is OK. It's just that "one gun, loaded in a bedside safe, no more other guns, no CCW" is what she thinks represents a compromise, when I don't think this is in her sphere at all. I agree in that I think her fears of accidents are what's driving her here to project her fears on me. Sigh. Still thinking...

jbraun -

Sir, with all due respect, the "thinking" you are doing consists of 33% listening to your own wishful thinking, 33% listening to her, and 33% listening to your "nether manhood" and the "thinking" process consists of trying to mentally shoehorn the facts into the shape of what you wish were true. You've had some EXTREMELY GOOD ADVICE and perspective from other board members here. You aren't really listening to any of it, you're thinking "Yeah, I really should draw the line, but she's so cute, I love the way her eyes twinkle, the shape of her nose, her girlish laugh... is sacrificing my God-given rights such a high price to pay? Maybe she'll get better, maybe I can MAKE her better with time and love... " Again, with all due respect sir, your male hormones are going to make a monkey out of you. She came back, put you under stricter limits than most European gun owners have to live under, and you are going to "think about it". Wrong answer. You should have said "We broke up because you think you can ask me to surrender my inalienable rights, now you're back asking me to do it again. What makes you think I've changed my mind and my rights are now up for negotiation?" Oh, wait, she thinks that after a week with no woman, you'll be h0rny enough to agree to almost anything she lays down.... Um, dude, please don't be offended but are you really that homely, or that much of a dweeb that you think this is the only gal who would want to go out with you? Get some self esteem, get some thick skin, get some True Grit. Please for the love of all that is Holy, snap out of it and sever this relationship. Go back and read my previous post to you, and know that it was written with a true concern for your welfare and your future. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water... no one can force you to accept good advice, all I can say is you will prove to yourself what kind of man you are by how you choose to deal with this situation. We all wish you the best and hope to high heavens you don't make a foolish mistake that will affect you the rest of your life.

[Green Lantern]

By all accounts, divorce is a NASTY affair, but there could be more at stake than that if you accept her "controls."

Like Hawkmoon said, what good is living by HER rules going to do you in a "SHTF" situation anywhere but in your bedroom...provided you can open the safe in time?

There are more fish in the sea (and living single ain't that bad, ain't killed me yet!). If you get financially gutted in the divorce a relationship like this will probably end up in, well, you can always earn more money.

But if "IT" hits the fan out there....bad....well, sorry. The 007 movie title was wrong...you only live once.

There's a lot to consider when deciding to get a CCW. But by God, it needs to be your choice to make!!!

I understand you've been with her a while....maybe if you take a closer look back you might find more examples of a "controlling" nature from her?

Or, maybe we're wrong and it IS just about fear of guns. But even if that's the case...in my book, there are some things in life you just don't compromise on.

My safety, and that of my loved ones, is one of those things.

jib, I know we're probably coming off like you should just pull the plug on this like turning off a switch. I've never been in your shoes, but I know it can't be that easy. But I know that I think ending the relationship is for the best. I don't know you from nothing...I've barely been here for 24 hours yet. But, I'd really hate to see you marry this woman and have our most dire predictions come true! :uhoh:

BTW, I have a sister-in-law like Barbara. She moans about the cost of bro's CCW. More about the cost of his bikes! :cool: But for all that, she lets him carry his gun and ride his chopper!

Oh, and the poster that said antis are fun to have around to debate. They ARE - but preferably as a faceless set of words here on the net. NOT preferable in your house, especially in your bed! :what:

Good luck to the OP...

[Tsonda]

going to keep quiet but her offer of a comprimise is horrible. Get out now she is going to control you forever. I know I am not the first to say this but damn man this is wrong.

[bruss01]

MRS.Bruss01 here. DH had to show me this thread and I feel compelled to add my 2 cents.

CUT YOUR LOSSES NOW AND GET OUT.

As a woman who had major control issues as well, I can tell you that every stitch of advice you've been given on this board is "spot on". (it is also true that a man with some nads is waaaay sexier than a spineless dweeb, k?)

You cannot negotiate with someone like this. This is not about the guns, this is about power. I'll say it again: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE GUNS, THIS IS ABOUT POWER. She wants to control you and is starting with a social hot-button that is very important to you. This is Step 1 of the downward spiral you'll be on if you cave on this issue.

She's doing this under the guise of "feeling safe", but what she's afraid of isn't the gun, it is the power and control that it represents. People with guns are powerful people and she feels so emotionally and psychologically powerless herself that in order to feel "safe" she needs you to be as powerless as she feels. She needs to reduce you to her level of dysfunction. She doesn't need a long term relationship right now with anyone but Dr. Phil (or one of his clones). Her "empathy" is just window dressing to make it more socially acceptable for her to try to control you on this issue and abdicate the responsibility for for her true motives.

Keep in mind, she may not be able to articulate the real reason - she just knows that she feels "unsafe" around people of power. For you to have power and live in proximity with her (and her feelings) has got to unnerve her terribly. If it wasn't the guns, it would be something else.

Is this making any sense? Are you getting that this is not about the guns but your personal, emotional, psychological power vs. hers? Please continue to read and reread the posts in this thread. Think about what advice you'd give a buddy in this situation. Well? What would you tell him?

Zanna, Mrs. Bruss01

[JohnKSa]

Reread the thread man!

You're fooling yourself if you think that what just happened changes anything.

She's still the same, and she's bending precious little. What's more, if you want my honest opinion based on experience, that little bend will snap right back out at some point in the future.

This has already been addressed, but you are going to lose a TON of leverage after you say "I do", and even more when kids come along. I know guys who have gone into marriage in LOTS better shape than you and who ended up TOTALLY gun free when kids came on the scene.

I think you're already beyond hope on this, so I'm already into I told you so mode. One day, I can promise you that you're going to remember what I wrote and what you're reading right now.

There will come a day when you realize that you were given LOTS of very good advice and that you ignored it and followed your hormones instead and made a very bad decision. When that day comes, it's going to be a very hard thing to accept and harder yet to live with.

Good luck and I hope you make the right decision.

[EvisceratorSrB]

How do I deal with my parents for these next 5 months?! :cuss: lol I wish it were that easy for the parents, especially when you live in their house! :banghead:

[The Guy]

Edited by author to delet post and to say this;

Good luck buddy, your going to need it. I didn't listen to anyone either.

[PATH]

jibraun,

Women don't respect a fellow they can manipulate and push around. It is not about the firearms it is about control. It is a long thread but I think the concensus is to move along if you want your guns and your self respect.

I am married almost 19 years and the wife asked me to leave once and I did. I was back three months later for my little girl's sake though. I told the wife if asked to leave again I was gone for good. The argument was about money and how it was spent. My wife told me it was her way or the highway. Life is too short to be threatened in such fashion. You must be the master of your own destiny!

I am not leaving my manhood in a pickle jar by the door and asking my wife's permission to do anything in life. I pay the bills and save money for the future. I am faithful and do what a husband should do as best I can.

I'll compomise on most things but I won't on things that are important to me.
Being dictated to by anyone should be unacceptable.

My poor .02 cents is that you move on and let it go. You are being told what to do against your will and I can assure you it won't get better.

[Beren]

I've been following this thread for awhile now, and I really have only a few comments to make. Keep in mind I am no expert at relationships, though we'll leave the details unsaid. Anyway, serious advice to follow in as simple a form as I can make it:

http://polaroids.theskeltons.org/img/eject.jpg

http://www.aviationforum.org/images/week/eject.jpg

The only way this will work out for you is if a) you give up your guns or b) she agrees she respects and trusts you, and if you ever have an accident she will /then/ come down on you like a ton of bricks.

[jlbraun]

Good advice here.

@Hawkmoon, bruss01

My "Still thinking" was referring to the exact way for me to tell her that I'm not changing my mind on what I want. I haven't ever backed down on things that are important to me, and I'm not about to start now.

Something along the lines of "What I do in this one matter is not up for negotiation. I am a safe and responsible person, I do not drink, I have not had a car accident since 1997, and I pay my taxes. I cannot be in a relationship with a woman who instead of facing her fears herself, admits that she is incapable of controlling her feelings and attempts to control the actions of others instead."

Oh, and I went and got the CHL anyway. ;)

[NineseveN]

Much better answer. :D

[ARTiger]

My wife doesn't like guns, but then again she has good martial arts training and keeps a garden implement under her side of the bed that'd scare me if on the other end. It's kinda like an axe turned sideways on one side and a three pronged cultivator on the other. Weighs about 5'lbs of solid iron on a two foot hickory handle.

All I'll say is anyone breaking into our house and threating our kids would really wish all she had was a gun.

On my side of the bed there's a S&W Model 21 .44 special and under the matress is an 870 12 gauge pump with pistol grip and magazine extension. That way they'll beg me to shoot 'em after she's done hacking away. :evil:

[C96]

jlbraun - You should re-read this thread slowly. What Mrs. Bruss01 said is really what this is all about.

I don't believe your true love is salavageable, although she may think you are.

I think it comes down to two simple choices, eject or cut your nuts off and sell your soul.

You may choose to sell your soul slowly and perhaps painfully but that appears to be one of the two choices.

allan

[History Prof]

My "Still thinking" was referring to the exact way for me to tell her that I'm not changing my mind on what I want. I haven't ever backed down on things that are important to me, and I'm not about to start now.

Something along the lines of "What I do in this one matter is not up for negotiation. I am a safe and responsible person, I do not drink, I have not had a car accident since 1997, and I pay my taxes. I cannot be in a relationship with a woman who instead of facing her fears herself, admits that she is incapable of controlling her feelings and attempts to control the actions of others instead."

Oh, and I went and got the CHL anyway.

JL, I gotta say here, that there should be no thinking - period. What you've said above leaves me the impression that you're thinking of a way to tell her it is your way or the hiway, hoping to salvage the relationship. Son, she's not gonna accept your way. The "no recreational shooting" comment made that one VERY obvious. The only thought process here is do I end it, or do I go HER way. You're the one with the on-ramp coming up. GET ON THE HIWAY. I would change what you've written above to "I cannot be in a relationship with a woman who wants me to give up a fundamental part of myself. GOODBYE. PERIOD."

[Q-Lock]

jlbraun,

Congrats on the CHL! Personally, I believe you're handling the situation pretty darn well. I know I wouldn't want to be in your shoes...luckily my wife of a little over a year is all for firearms and personal protection/CCW. It seems you know what to do, although it may be difficult for you to go through with it.

Good luck, and if you don't mind, keep us updated.

Regards,

[steelhead]

There is a definite level of maturity that is required from both of you on this subject.

It is all about compromising but neither of you can or want to compromise on this subject. 1 gun, by the bed, will turn into a safe full as you push her. Likewise, she will push you back to get rid of just the 1 gun..... Based on your comments, and portrayal of events, I only see this ending in a break up. Hopefully it will happen before there are any kids involved.

You question how much she loves and respects you but how much do you love and respect her?

Do you love and respect her enough to give up your firearms or agree, for life, on that 1 handgun and no CCW (that is no different than what you are asking her to do with her convictions)?

Do you, at least, love and respect her enough to tell her that this relationship will not work and both of you need to move on?

This is grown up time and things do not always work out.

[The_Antibubba]

JL,

I can't add much to what has been said, although Mrs. BRuss and Greybeard 7 have said it best AFAIC. I think you understand, but "walking out the door" for real is hard, no matter how necessary it is.

I dated the same woman for 12 years. If I'd been right in the head, it would've been three, max. Her problems make your GFs sound like a dream come true. The basic truth is, most people do not change. Sometimes there is something dramatic, like a religious conversion, or something mundane, like seeing your daughter for the first time, but change is usually slow going. And we usually don't do it unless something pushes us into it.

Compromise is 2-way. Your GF is not compromising. She has given you permission. Anything that an authority can give can be taken away. That's why the Bill of Rights is so amazing-no ONE can take away G-d Given rights. They can be given away, though. As crazy as it may seem to us, your GF has every right to feel the way she does, and to live by those rules, even if it gets her killed. She has "generously" told you of what your rights are, in her sphere of influence.

You haven't wasted three years. Sometimes I feel as though I wasted twelve, but when I consider who I've become and where I'm at, I don't know if I'd be doing so well without them (I was a Philosophy major, too :D ). It'll only be wasted if you fail to learn from it.

I know you know it is over, because you'll never be able to trust her until she's competing in IDPA with her own race gun! For all of her problems I knew my GF would cover me as far as her own psychological horrors would let her, and sometimes past them-which is why I stayed so long, because there was growth and change. But it would have taken her 200 years to get to good place, and I didn't have that long.

You really seem to be rational and on top of the situation, so I'm not worried about what you'll do. The doing is still hard.

[abearir]

gun is nothing more than iron and wood in its basic element. Just as a hammer is iron and wood. Both are capable of great acomplishments and great distruction. The difference is the craftsman or idiot holding it........I would rather be the craftsman. I use this very statement when confronted by anti's as a firearms instructor.

[JohnKSa]

I think this represents a major giving in on her part...This is so messed up I don't even know where to start. This is not giving in the least, let alone major giving. She's still dictating the precise conditions to be in effect which means she hasn't given up any control at all, she's just trying to maintain control by softening her initially wildly unreasonable stance a tiny bit.

When you're walking the dog and you let out an extra foot of leash, are you giving the dog control? Nope, you're just letting him FEEL a little bit more in control.What I do in this one matter is not up for negotiationI don't believe you have told her this for the simple reason that she's still negotiating with you.

And I don't believe that you really believe that the matter is not up for negotiation because because you're posting her negotiations here like they're progress.

If the matter is not up for negotiation then negotiation is NOT progress. In fact, it's the exact opposite of progress.

You're fooling yourself--both about your girlfriend and yourself.

[Hawkmoon]

Let me repeat something that was touched on earlier in this thread, but appears to have been forgotten:

Mr. Braun, you and this young woman are discussing (or were) the possibility of living together, so I'm probably not going too far out on a limb to surmise that your relationship is, ah ... "intimate." Remember the mention of restraining orders, and losing your right to even touch a firearm -- FOREVER. You don't have to be married for this to occur -- anyone in an "intimate" relationship can go to the cops at any time and claim to feel threatened, and it's all over but the shouting.

If your personal dignity and your personal rights are important to you, there is no need and no reason to risk this. And don't even think "Oh, but she'd never do that," because she could well surprise you. I wouldn't have believed that my first wife, whose thousands of dollars in credit card debt I paid off after we married, would go into court two years later and claim that I had embezzled thousands of dollars [that she never had] from her ... but that's exactly what happened.

You, sir, are playing with a live hand grenade. The pin has already been pulled, and now we're just standing around to see if the spoon has been released or if she's still holding onto it ...

[BergaminoCAV]

good work, Im glad my girl doesnt mind me owning guns

[TimboKhan]

My take on this as a divorcee 5 years past his divorce? Well, there are some extentuating circumstances with my ex-wife, but the end result is that the person that threw me out of the house was just miserable to live with, and I am thankful that she pulled the trigger on our relationship. Because of that experience, at this point in my life, I simply have not the time, desire or patience to be in a relationship that requires me to "change". I just don't have it in me anymore to go through all the nagging and bitching and complaining that the women that I seem to attract put me through. Guns, watching the Broncos and the Rockies play, going hunting and fishing and shooting with the boys, playing my guitar and reading books are all parts of me that may seem like somewhat superficial reasons to disqualify a potential mate, but dammit, those are the things that I like to do and things that are important to me. Ideally, it would be nice if some of those were shared activities, but at a bare minimum, any girl that I go out with is going to have to understand that those are things that are not gonna change with me. I am pretty bad at playing the guitar, so I will make the concession to turn it down, but thats it....

[SAG0282]

You know, other then the fact that I only have two guns, I feel amazingly lucky when I read gun forums.

When people in IL, MA, CA, D.C., or other crapholes post about gun control and their severely infringed rights, I feel fortunate to live in WA, which has few controls, among the best CCW statutes in the country, and relative security from any gun legislation.

And in this case, when people post up about significant others that are know-it-all anti control freaks, I'm lucky my g/f is pro, carries herself, and is a hottie to boot. As others have said, this can't end well. If you dont have a relationship that has mutual agreements and reasonable discussions with well-grounded concerns and compromise, you have nothing. No quality or quantity of sex or any other quality will change the fact that a relationship lacking that mutual respect and maturity is doomed. Worse, your RKBA could be doomed following a restraining order or other example of spite.

I'd ditch, quick.

[Double Naught Spy]

In bubba-speak, when a man claims to have laid down the law with his wife or girlfriend, it usually just means he managed to get her permission. :D

[Sungun09]

OK - the first thing(s) I told my potentail GF is that I am no compromise on two things, my faith, and my guns.

To her credit, she has gone shooting with me a couple of time even tho now we don't consider ourselves a couple for other reasons.

Read http://nomarriage.com/ and see what your future would be with a women who thought protecting life and limb is "icky"

[jlbraun]

Yeah, we're broken up. Some choice statements:

"You said that buying guns was part of you wanting to take responsibility for protecting me and our future family - well, then, I'll just break up with you and get back together after the guns are gone."

"OK, we'll just move to a country where you can't have guns."

"I don't want a gun in my life."

"Having a gun creates negative energy, which means bad things happening to you is more likely when you own a gun."

On top of some other things, I wouldn't want this woman raising my children. 3 years down the drain. Oh well. :(

[ArmedBear]

"Having a gun creates negative energy, which means bad things happening to you is more likely when you own a gun."

Look, we've been hearing a very wise bit of advice since we were little:

DON'T SQUEEZE THE SHAMAN!!!!

(Good choice on your part, BTW. I'm glad she's not going to be raising your kids. I'm only bummed to know she might raise someone's, and that she might vote.)

[K-Romulus]

I understand the "3 years gone" sorrow. I was in the same boat (firearms were one of several issues). I felt like crap for a while, and questioned whether the "gun nut" thing was worth it after the loss of the relationship.

I realized that it was worth it: principles should not be compromised without good reason (like a different set of facts or circumstances). With the other non-gun-related issues, it never would have worked out. Not that we hate each other, the relationship would never be able to work "on that level." Still have lunch. Still keep in touch, just not "significant others."

Presto: I met someone else within two months. At our third date, when it looked like there was some potential here, and I trusted her enough to even broach the subject without her going psycho and calling the cops on me :rolleyes: , I lay my cards on the table and let the chips fall where they may: CCW, EBRs, safety/responsibility, "matter of principle," etc., etc.

She listened, tried to repeat the "22 times" regurgiprop, and then listened some more. After thinking it over, she agreed that my principles weren't all that far off from hers. We got married a year and a half later, now three years on with kid.

The only sacrifice I chose to make regarding the "gun issue" was leaving behind my rental apartment in VA and moving to her house in MD, thus giving up any current chance at daily CCW. This decision was based on several factors that outweighed daily CCW in the balance.

Look at your past 3 years as a learning/refining/growing experience. I guarantee you will be the wiser the next time you "date" someone, in many ways beyond the "gun issue."

I shudder to think what would have happened if the ex was the one raising my kid. :uhoh:
One memorable quote near the end:"No American flag will ever fly in front of my home!":eek:

[Andrew Rothman]

Look at your past 3 years as a learning/refining/growing experience. I guarantee you will be the wiser the next time you "date" someone, in many ways beyond the "gun issue."

Bingo. You've learned an important lesson about boundaries and control that will serve you well.

[Lunga Bunga]

Good you for . I totally agree. Last year my wife and 2 kids. 7 yr old girl . 3 yr old boy ......... had to evecuate :hurricane Katrina came to visit...... I live in Tx ! We got less than an hour away from home after being in the car for 32 hours ! AT 8:30 at night I ran out of gas and pulled over in a carwash parking lot. Here I am . in a Not so good neighborhood . 8:30 at night with a wife and 2 kids. with no protection at all . I thought . anyone could come up to me and my family . especially if there were more than one person.. and do whatever they wanted and I couldn't defend myself . Thank God a guy on his way home from work saw us and stopped and asked if we needed help. Him and his wife and daughter brought us 5 gallons of gas and some food for us and the kids. You can't IMAGINE how grateful I was to them . We made it home. spent the night . and stayed the next 2 days in a shelter..... which I'll NEVER do again . but that's another story. :eek: I told my wife I would NEVER put us in another situation that had us THAT vulnerable again . So I went and bought ~ KIM ~ . :D So Now . me and Kim ........ Kimber 2 Stainless 45 automatic . will be going with us should we ever have to leave again ! :neener: :D :neener:
Tony.

[Guy B. Meredith]

Better three years than a life of misery--you did the right thing by your potential offspring and they should grow up thanking you for it. Good you caught on in time. People who want control aren't worth living around.

[mack]

I can't believe I read this whole thread. I'm sorry things didn't work out. Been married and divorced, now remarried. Men and Women are very different. Relationships take time and effort. Healthy personal and emotional boundaries are central to a healthy relationship. Better to learn those lessons now then after you are married and have kids. In my wedding vows, when I married again, I said that I had nothing to offer her but my love. Never do something for another person ever, even your spouse if you are doing it for any reason other than because you truly want to do it out of love, out of a real desire to do so without any expectation of return or because you feel obligated to do so or because you feel you "should" or "have to" - otherwise you will end up with resentments and anger that the the person that you "sacrificed/compromised/gave in to" did not "repay" you adequately or fairly in return. Never try to make another person responsible for your feelings or happiness and never try to make yourself responsible for someone elses feelings or happiness.

Personally, I find that if the most central and important relationship in one's life is a loving and intimate relationship with God as they understand him then, (since that relationship is eternal, unchanging, secure, and forgiving) - one does not need to look to others to fulfill their emotional and spiritual needs.

One is then free to live a life out of love and one never has to be afraid of "losing" someone - for we do not desire to possess someone. Each day that I wake Up and each night that I go to bed I know that I have a choice to love my wife, kids, and family or not. I am free to be a husband, father, brother or son, or not. It is always my choice - just as it is always my wife's, kid's, and families choice to be a loving part of each others lives or not. Stay healthy.

God Bless

Mack

[NineseveN]

The thing is, now you'll hopefully know to get these kinds of dealbreaker issues out of the way early on in a realtionship. No hiding or downplaying your guns, political or religious leanings or whatever boundaries you have, no matter how hot the liberal anti-gun sex bunnie arts-major is. :cool:

[Sig245]

I think you did a great job the way you handled that situation. We can all learn from your experience.

[Leanwolf]

NINESEVEN - "The thing is, now you'll hopefully know to get these kinds of dealbreaker issues out of the way early on in a realtionship. No hiding or downplaying your guns, political or religious leanings or whatever boundaries you have, no matter how hot the liberal anti-gun sex bunnie arts-major is."

_________________________________________________________________

Never more wise words have been spoken (WRITTEN)!!!!!!!!!!! :D

L.W.

[jlbraun]

After the breakup, I bought a ticket for my sister to come out here. I had talked to her months ago about the gun issue coming between me and my now-ex-girlfriend as it was happening, and she just couldn't understand it, she said. My sister just didn't get the idea of having a loaded gun in the house or carrying it around with you, heavens! Note that my sister and I are capable of disagreeing without getting mad at each other. She's an anti-gun middle-left Democrat.

Point of order - my sister has been robbed at gunpoint and was pistol whipped AFTER they had her purse, just once WHAM in the face as they ran away. I think that her experience was pretty motivating in my deciding to buy a gun a learn how to use it.

So I asked my sister to come with me on a hike at night, because full moons are really pretty here. It's something I've done for years, well before I bought a gun - a lot of people from town go hiking when there's a full moon. So, rationally, I strap on the Safepacker with the CZ, flashlight, and a spare mag, and off we go. So we get out to the trailhead out ten miles from town. We begin hiking, there's no other people on the trail and no other cars at the trail head, and it's about 11PM. She says something about being a "city girl", and how being out West is pretty cool - but aren't there mountain lions out here?

I say that "you're more likely to be hurt by a two legged predator than a four legged one out here, and that's why I have this", patting the safepacker which she now realizes CONTAINS A GUN! I have to give her credit, she didn't flip out or anything, just moves over to my weak side and says, "So, basically, if anything happens I should get behind you and duck?" I say yes, she nods, and nothing else is said of it.

I then realized that her reaction is the appropriate, rational, and measured response that I would want out of any woman I date in the future. My sister is anti-gun, doesn't own one, doesn't want to learn to shoot - but she also didn't walk away, demand I walk back to the car and leave it, or anything else unreasonable. I take the defense of my family and girlfriend very seriously, and I'm not going to start compromising on that ever again.

(Lastly, the ex broke up with me in a *^%*&^ email, said that "you were convincing me on the gun thing there at the end when we went shooting, but there are still problems, so I don't think we're going to work out" - mostly the problems centered around her wanting someone just like her dad: quite controlled by her mom, always wants the best hotels and food, and giving her $600+ "just because" whenever he visits. I don't ever ask my parents for money, ever.)

&^%&$ this. I'm goin' out.

[PATH]

You have seen the light. Best now rather than later. There are a great many women in the world who don't want your.........in a pickle jar.

Good Luck to you!

[American By Blood]

"Having a gun creates negative energy, which means bad things happening to you is more likely when you own a gun."

Worst argument ever. A woman I was dating years ago said this when I was first looking into buying a gun and I laughed in her face. I don't care how much I love you, how smokin' hot your body is, or how good a baker you are--that kind of dumb will get you laughed at.

&^%&$ this. I'm goin' out.

Atta boy.

[Green Lantern]

Some pain now...is better than a lifetime of pain later on...! :uhoh:

Glad to see you out of a no-win situation. Chin up, and good luck! :)

EDIT - yep, that "negative energy" rant would have sealed the deal for about anybody! Moooooooonbaaaaat.... :scrutiny:

[Snap]

"Negative energy", huh? Of all the arguments.....Be happy you got out when you did. What was she, anyway, a new-age hippie holistic healer or something? As someone else said, sounds more than a little moonbattish.

[CNYCacher]

Yeah, we're broken up
Congradulations!
3 Years down the drain.
Stop right there!
You did not waste the last three years. You spent the last three years learning more about yourself and more about what you are looking for in a woman. Time spent learning what type of woman compliments your character, values and personality is necessary and vital and was never wasted.

The truly happy people in marriage are either very lucky to have stumbled upon someone who works well with them, or they spent a lot of time with different people learning what does or doesn't work. That time should never be consdered "wasted". None of us know right off the bat what we are looking for, we have to find out through trial and error.

The truly unhappy people are the ones who didn't know enough about themselves before making the decision to marry, who thought that they could compromise away all their differences, and wanted to "make it work" at all costs. Perhaps they thought that they could never do better, perhaps they didn't know any better, perhaps they were just scared of being the "bad guy". Who knows why, but for whatever reason when they should cut and run, they try as hard as possible to stay with it.

A lot of us on this thread saw you heading down that second road to a life of misery and we encouraged you to stop and re-evaluate. Knowing that there was a good chance you wouldn't listen, we tried anyway, at least one of us ;) prayed for you too. I know there is pain where you are now, I know you are probably hurting, feeling dejected, doubtful of your future, etc. You may be concentrating on all the things that you liked about this girl. You may be thinking to yourself "how am I ever going to find a girl like her again?". Heads up kid, you aren't going to, and that's a good thing! Trust me, there are qualities in some woman you will meet in the future which you never even dreamed of. Some girl you haven't met yet is going to shake your whole belief system on what makes a good girlfriend/friend/wife, and you will love her for it.

The past three years were [b]were not wasted time. Any time you spend now looking for a girl just like the last one, or trying to work things out with the last one will be wasted time.

[djpullen]

I never saw this thread til today so most of what I say here will probably not go those it is intended to.

Pax, grow some skin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The one great saying that I've come up with is this. The truer something is, the more it offends someone. People make generalizations about white males all the time and I don't take offense if those generalizations don't fit me. I let it roll off. The only thing that bothers me is the double standards that many minorities posses. I'm a white male with a shaved head and a really long goatee. You wouldn't believe some of the looks I get from minorities. I also have had several go out of their way to initiate conversations and friendships with me despite my appearance. That tells me right there that they don't believe in the "skinhead" hype. I don't hate women or pink, blue, white, black, brown or yellow people.

JL, if your ex nag thinks having a gun with no ammo is a compromise, you should have handed her a set a batteries and told her should could have those but no vibrator.

[SoCalShooter]

:) Nice work there mate. Perhaps once she lives with a gun in the home for a while she will be less afraid of it. Good job! I would have said something similiar but I tend to use more colorful language:evil: . I hope that you are able to console her fears of guns, good luck and good'onya mate!

[mr.trooper]

O i bet you probably THINK you won this argument. :rolleyes:

Now that you have "won", dont be surprised if you loose every other argument the two of you have from now on. :p

[strambo]

The best relationship advice I ever got was from my old german teacher in high school, of all places. Frau Zeitek, I don't rember how the subject came up...I didn't bring it up. Her and the mother of the girl I was dating were good friends...I was just a "C"-"D" student in her class, but she took a liking to me anyway.

She said; "Life is too short to spend time with someone you don't have anything in common with."

Of course, I didn't really listen and we dated for 3 years...but I was in the Army and it was long distance...so no real problem either. That statement did strike a chord, and I never would have considered marrying this girl. I heeded that advice better after that.

My mom said "you can control who you date, but not who you fall in love with". I think those two statements together make a very good dating philosophy. If/when you realize the girl you started dating doesn't have that much in common with you (It should be very early unless you don't talk) bail before you fall in love. When you find a person you are compatible with...it isn't that hard. If things are that hard, you aren't compatible.

Worst argument ever. A woman I was dating years ago said this when I was first looking into buying a gun and I laughed in her face. I don't care how much I love you, how smokin' hot your body is, or how good a baker you are--that kind of dumb will get you laughed at.
That's awesome. I'd have done the same thing...not in a conscious way, but I would have reflexively laughed at that statement or given an involuntary "you have two heads" kind of look at her with a smirk.

[psyopspec]

I just read this for the first time and I gotta say that aside from all the clutter of looky lous showing up late and posting only in reaction to the OP this is one of the best thread's I've ever read on THR. A lot of the advice ya'll are giving now is relevant in my life too, and it means a lot.

I just ended a relationship when I realized that it had a long-term expiration date. It was hard to hurt the girl, but I felt a small measure of peace afterwards. Drive ahead jlbraun; it's easy to see by your character that you'll be alright.

[jlbraun]

"long-term expiration date"

That precisely describes our relationship. "How can I NOT date this girl" while at the same time knowing there were compatibility issues.

[psyopspec]

Yep. It's a tough boat to be in. Now part of me says FIDO - F it, drive on. But posters like strambo make a good point in saying that there's something valuable to take away from the experience.

My case is a little different than yours on the 2a/firearms issue. She was indifferent about my gun ownership, but there were other issues working against us. As I've gained a couple years I've started to recognize that a girl's philosophy on personal defense can be a deal breaker for me. Basically the next one will either be a gun owner or have a hunger for learning that stuff before I'll consider being in an exclusive relationship with her. Till then, the single life has its benefits. Good luck man.

[Rickstir]

It is pretty much a learned behavior that any woman thinks they can change a man after they are together. Worked in my first marriage, and I truely loved my first wife. So far, this one has not excerised the franchise. She came into the relationship a non-shooter, now has her own pistol and can use the .410 if she has too. Never complains about my hobby, yet. Like they say, watch your six.

[otasan]

"OK. Even if we move in together, it's still outside of my boundaries to insist that you get rid of the gun. The relationship is more important to me. I'm still scared of guns though."


Take it from me. If things in a relationship end up as they do in a relationship, you are at extreme risk of losing your home AND firearms. All that she has to do is go to the local court and file for a restraining order. All she has to do is say that she is afraid of you, and that you have firearms, and the judge WILL issue an RO.

You will be forced out of your own home, and you'll likely never see your guns again.

I hope that you do not live in a town/state that has anti-gun judges.

[thumper723]

That happened to me today. MPO vice RO, but same idea.

Totally out of the friggin blue too. We just went to the range with friends yesterday...

Living on a couch in the Ready Room stinks.. But at least we have showers here. :( :(

[jamz]

Egads, Thumper! What the hell!

[thumper723]

Wife woke up mad, started screaming at me for making noise, (took shower, getting dressed, balanced checkbook) and yelling about alleged things that she dreamed I did..

I left and went to work. 1600 I get served, and am given 2 hours to get home get my stuff and get out (45 min in traffic).

[jlbraun]

FWIW, this thread is now the #1 result on Google for the words "anti-gun girlfriend". :rolleyes:

[thumper723]

Wow...

As an update to my situation, I am still living out of my seabag at the BOQ, and have had to spend $3000+ just to remain a free man..

[Oleg Volk]

This kind of stories (which seem fairly common) make me really wonder about the wisdom of letting anyone move into my home. I'd been lucky with the past girlfriends in that none of them turned vicious, but the degree of bias legal against men seems pretty severe. Any I getting a distorted picture of the reality?

[Geno]

I can assure you of one fact, you may have won this battle, but the war is far from over. :scrutiny:

Doc2005

[NineseveN]

Oleg, I don't think you're getting a distorted picture of reality as it is for many men, however, I wouldn't take that picture and run too far with it. The point of the matter is that many men (hell, most of us) make poor choices when it comes to female companionship for a variety of reasons.

Men are impulsive on that note, not really thinking far enough ahead to get deal-breaker issues like politics, religion, guns or whatnot out in the open right away. The woman often does this too, however, they're brought up with the notion that they can change things they don't like, or more to the point, that the relationship's progression will alter and change both the man and the relationship (guys can often do this too on a lesser level in regards to how a woman dresses, what she does, if she has a career etc...).

In order for two people to live in harmony and both be equally satisfied and happy with equal status in the relationship, each party has to respect the individual as much as or more than the union, understanding that the better the individuals, the better the union (so long as each party is committed to it of course). Either that, or they both have to agree on and like the same things so no opportunity for conflict will arise.

It's a tough decision, and to be honest, many men I know get very nervous during times of conflict in the home because the female has a huge arsenal to pay with should she get nasty...the worst we can do is sleep with her mother/sister/best friend, which means we pay in divorce court.

[pax]

No, Oleg, you're not. The system is biased against men.

However: as long as the truth is on your side, an ex-gf or ex-wife going psycho and making all kinds of allegations can't hurt you much in the long run. Outright lies are may cost you money, heartache, and frustration, but are very unlikely to cost you your firearms or your freedom.

pax

[Oleg Volk]

My prospects for a mate are pretty poor around here because my "must have" list rules out most of the population. The must haves are just the basics:

- compatibility of ethical/political views
- similar religion or lack thereof
- economic and mental self-sufficiency

To that, would be nice to add personal attraction. In one of my relationships, all those were present but the personality mis-match was such that I don't even stay in touch with that ex (though I remain friendly with all the others).

I no longer have the patience to put up with much. The one local person I've dated seriously since runt_of_the_litter is mis-matched with me completely on ethics/religion/politics yet we can get along...but moving in together or haing kids together is a completely different level of compatibility. I can't imagine being able to be happy around ANY woman I know (of any age or marital status). With no potential role models and with work and school taking up most of my time, I am moving away from the idea of marrying or having kids at all.

As for the legal perils of marriage, seems to me that picking sane mates would go a long way towards ameliorating the risks...and, now that I have better judgement and can spot insanity or immaturity, that cuts out even more potential candidates. Then there's always the other side: I'd like to stay in TN for now, and that rules me out for many potential relationships also.

[cpaspr]

or maybe not; but hang in there Oleg. And JL, too.

I was persuing a relationship with a lady I was sure was "the one" for me. All I had to do was convince her of that and get her to move back to Oregon from Vermont. In the midst of that I met another lady, with kids. Just as friends. Heck, she was even willing to be a sounding board for my arguments to get Vermont to come back! And she sure wasn't interested in dating at the time!

Well, we got to know each other as friends. No games, just friends. I worked on her car, she fed me dinner. Friends.

That was 20 years ago.

We've been married eighteen years.

I had guns and I hunted, and she knew it. Wasn't her thing, but as long as I was safe and the guns were locked away from the kids, all was well. Now the kids are grown and gone, and she even goes shooting with me occasionally. Still not her thing, she can take it or leave it, but she enjoys spending time with me doing something I enjoy. That's the important thing. Oh, and the guns aren't nearly as locked up as they used to be.

So hang in there, both of you. The right one will come along, when you least expect it. Maybe even when you aren't looking her way. :)

[CornCod]

Pushy females who think they can control men, including their reasonable use of firearms, need to be punished by being avoided. They should live out a long, unhappy, miserable existence as old maids. Fathers in this culture need to teach their sons to avoid controlling women.

[whatbrick]

CornCod:

Pushy females who think they can control men, including their reasonable use of firearms, need to be punished by being avoided. They should live out a long, unhappy, miserable existence as old maids. Fathers in this culture need to teach their sons to avoid controlling women.

The only reason controlling women exist is because they have gotten away with it by being with men who can be controlled. Parents don't need to teach their kids to avoid controlling people, but to teach them how to not be controlled (this goes for both genders).

thumper723:

Wow...

As an update to my situation, I am still living out of my seabag at the BOQ, and have had to spend $3000+ just to remain a free man..

Needless to say, when you get back on your feet you will be working on getting this woman out of your life as efficiently as possible, right? And please tell me there are no kids involved.

Also, you don't have any friends that you could stay with? Or at least could keep your firearms (and other belongings) in a safe place.

[epijunkie67]

When I was active duty my good friends wife freaked out and did the same thing to him. We'd gone on a field exercise in the desert (Ft Bliss) for about 3 weeks. Before we left she was lovey dovey and life was great. When we got back he went home and she flipped out that day. Cursed him out, threw him out of the house, filed for divorce and pretty much just raked him over the coals.

He hadn't cheated or done any other kind of stupid stuff like that. Heck, he was one of the most soft spoken christian guys I knew. Became an insurance salesman after he got out of the army. But it was like flipping a switch. "Love you honey" one day and G"et the F*** out" the next. To this day he STILL doesn't know what happened.

Happy ending though. After psycho chick left him he met a really sweet lady from El Paso and they ended up getting married. Better looking than his first wife and I KNOW she treated him better.

[No_Brakes23]

I have never understood how a women can kick her man out. If my wife wigs on me, and want's us in different houses, she is more than welcome to find another place to sleep.

[Hoploholic]

Be very careful Thumper. If she goes downtown and gets a RO against you, it could mean the end of your military service. If you fall under the Lautenberg act, they can seperate you from service as you are no longer world wide qualified via your inability to carry a firearm.

[Aguila Blanca]

This kind of stories (which seem fairly common) make me really wonder about the wisdom of letting anyone move into my home. I'd been lucky with the past girlfriends in that none of them turned vicious, but the degree of bias legal against men seems pretty severe. Any I getting a distorted picture of the reality?
Sadly, you are NOT getting a distorted view, you are getting an accurate view of a distorted system.

[Mannlicher]

jlbraun, my friend, you know NOTHING about women. You , and the relationship as you have known it, are toast. :eek:

[thumper723]

Be very careful Thumper. If she goes downtown and gets a RO against you, it could mean the end of your military service. If you fall under the Lautenberg act, they can seperate you from service as you are no longer world wide qualified via your inability to carry a firearm.

Well, got served today. TRO until I have my court date 9 NOV.