OT/SHTF/ How much stuff can...

[eclancy]

Gentlemen,
..you run with....
This subject has been talked about for a long time on the net. The way things are going today there maybe a reason that could trigger it i.e. dirty bomb, gas attack, etc,etc. The problem is that you MUST LEAVE your home, with a family of 4. Ok many of you have different types of rifles and ammo. How much can you jam into your car, truck, etc. Think of all that you would have to leave behind. Remember, your not at home. You must have or find food, shelter, water and a means to protect those. What type of area would you head for. I guess my point is most of you have most of the equipment but do you have a plan???
Thanks again
Clancy
ps remember gas for you trip money or CC may mean nothing

[Leif]

How much can you run with?

Not nearly as much as most people think they can! :neener: These people who think they're going to run through a Mad Max scenario lugging an auto rifle (plus magazines), a "sniper rifle" (to reach out there), a primary handgun, a backup handgun, and a .22 for game provision will more likely waddle to their demise; I may exaggerate some, but not too much. Too many video games, I guess.

I hike a fair bit, so my ridiculously nightmarish SHTF situation equipment (assuming foot travel as opposed to car travel) basically is my hiking equipment, a few small personal items, plus two firearms (Marlin 1894 and S&W Mountain Gun, both .44mag) and ammo; significant other can carry the .22rifle and ammo in addition to her hiking stuff (she's never shot a gun in her life and has no intention of ever doing so, so basically she becomes a porter with respect to firearms). The emphasis is on light; even the addition of the other items beyond the basic hiking gear will slow our rate of travel, and we're talking about walking here, not running.

The addition of a car means the cats and the shotgun get to come along for the ride. As per destination, that's classified. :cool: (OK, not really)

[Sgt Stevo]

The big one is our biggest fear here in the bay area. I was in the 7.1 back in 89. I was home on leave.

The whole valley shut down. If really big one hits, it will be worse. I have a cabin up in the sac foothills area. And we are in the process of buying a new 4x4.

I also have friends in most directions. And one highroad moderator who livesin the mountains above us.

So I will have to pick my route and go to whichever I can get to.

I have water, mre's,etc. BUt my biggest problem is my has to take an insulin shot every few hours.
All I need is my mini-30 and one of my pistole and I think we will be good. That and a couple of my protection dogs. The big problem, will be goods and services will shut down.

So I need to get my family out, and return to my SAR unit. And help out. Scary, and it will happen.

[KINGMAX]

:scrutiny: Remember the 6 'P's for success = Proper planning prevents piss poor performance. My father was a Sargent Major in the Special Forecs, (Team A-24). This was a code he lived by prior to leaving on any project. I am very proud of my Dad, he is my HERO.

[wingnutx]

If there is a dirty bomb or gas attack, I am staying inside my house with the AC turned off and the windows shut.

Might even break out the much-derided duct tape.

The last thing I am going to do is run around out in the bad stuff.

A layer of VX or sarin on my house won't hurt me a bit. Going outside and touching it will.

[pcf]

Without water I can backpack for 5 days with a 35 pound pack. Adding 2 gallons of water adds about 19 pounds (water and containers). That's about my limit for comfortable hiking and the weight at which I can hike safely for days.

I once did a 26 mile hump, after the fifth mile ended up carrying a 240G and after 15 got the tripod too, I finished the hump, but afterwords spent two week on chit. Crossed the line between hard and stupid.

You can probably carry your body weight plus 50 pounds without too many problems, but for how long and what's it going to do to your body afterwords.

You can just as quickly kill yourself when your ankles swell till you can't get your boots on, your toes bleed, your arches bruise and blisters are everywhere. You can be hard as hell, but your not walking anywhere.

I have a plan, a vehicle is a bonus not a neccessity, cars overheat and breakdown in traffic, run out of gas.......

[Manedwolf]

Since I have plenty of food and water in a basement storage bin, I think the only thing that would make me LEAVE my area would be something like Seabrook nuclear busting its containment or something.

Otherwise, why would you want to get into a traffic jam with lots of sheep who didn't prepare, who will just give you trouble and perhaps cause mob riots?

[vynx]

I live in the San Fernando Valley and there is no way I could drive out of here after an attack. On the Thursday or Friday before a holiday the 15 to Las Vegas is backed up for about 300 miles all the way from Vegas to Fontana - actually further south down the 15. Taking the 5 north or the 101 north would be just as bad. I figure unless I have a premonition and listen to it (which has never happened); I have no choice but to hunker down and ride it out or die. Seriously, we have 2 dogs and 4 cats, my wife wouldn't leave them behind and by the time I got her into a vehicle without them it would be all over or too late to run.

The good thing is all I need now is too make sure I have enough water, food & ammo.

[Low-Sci]

If it's a natural disaster, take a gun- only ONE GUN PER PERSON - and make the rest something more practical. You'll use ten pounds of ham sandwiches much more often than ten pounds of rifle. And even for us young un's, ten pounds can get heavy after a while.

If it's a situation that automatically renders every civilian a warfighter by necessity and you have to equip yourself to go to war with martians, zombies, children of the corn, or 18th century pirates, that's different. A couple orders of magnitude less likely as well, but that rarely stops people from considering it.

I guess I would do it like this: figure out what you'd need to carry with you. Then, assume you can only take half of that, and it weighs four times as much as it really does. Then figure out what you'd really need. Repeat as needed until you have a weight that you can load a pack with and train with.

All the gear in the world won't mean squat if you're too out of shape to transport it, and too exhausted to use it correctly once you're done carrying it.

[Dionysusigma]

Apparently, I can run while carrying a chainsaw, Beretta 92, GE Minigun, Remington 870, Stoeger Coach gun, an autoloading rocket launcher, a prototype plasma rifle, and a BFG 9000.

While taking out various demons of the underworld.

:D :evil: :neener:

Most I've ever run with is 45 pounds in a pack for a half-mile. If the SHTF, I'm cutting through secluded areas and walking. :uhoh: And that's just after the car dies. Again.

[jgeiken]

I'm from WI. And even thought I'm sure we are the last on a list of terrorist targets. My family still has a plan. We have a cabin about 2 hours north of here, on a lake, with plenty of wildlife around. In the event of some sort of emergency. My family agrees that we all meet at the cabin. None of us try to go pick up the other or try to take anything more than we need. I personally would bring myself, my roomate, my Rock River M4gery, and my XD .40. The xd with about 100 rds. but the m4 with much more (probably about 400 rds.) just in case im up there for a while. I always keep the gas topped in my car and have found some backroads out of the busy and densly populated city of milwaukee.

At the first sign of trouble i leave for the cabin. If cell lines are down at least we know we will all be in the same place. There is an endless supply of clean water, plenty of food. And we can hunt if and when the food runs out. I also have a bag packed with necessary ammo, and keep a supply of bottled water in the house at all times. From A "dirty bomb", to a day after tommorow style disaster. I'm pretty confident that I am ready to be somewhere safe, defendable, and somewhere that i know where everyone in my immediate family will end up. and if they dont show up there.... well then thats something i dont want to think about. Perhaps im a little overprepared... But i think katrina has shown us all that it is better to be overprepared than to sit on the roof of your house waving a nasty bath towel at a helicopter. :neener:

[Manedwolf]

But i think katrina has shown us all that it is better to be overprepared than to sit on the roof of your house waving a nasty bath towel at a helicopter.

That whole bit reminded me of one of my most adamant recommendations...that if you ARE in serious isolated trouble and need air rescue (flash flood, etc) it's good to always have a few 12-gauge flares with your shotgun ammo. Just make sure you keep it behind something out of view of the helicopter when firing, or the response might not be the one you want!

Especially if you're in a suburban area. I suspect that fair or not, if there's a lot of trapped people, Coast Guard and the like might be more likely to head for a bona-fide rescue flare going up than they would to the endless people waving towels.

See the helicopter, send up flares, if it comes your way, light hand flares, too. If it means they might be questioning whether it's downed service personnel or such and head your way instead...well, in that sort of situation, any advantage to protect your family?

[Leif]

Katrina also reminded me that if you have the warning, opportunity, and means, you shouldn't stick around awaiting an impending SHTF event unless you have a really good reason for doing so. The best survival strategy, IMHO, is not staying in a place where you're likely to have to employ any survival strategies when you know you might have to beforehand!

[ball3006]

120 miles away, less guns. I always have one gas tank in my truck full at all times. I have a foot locker in my truck with basic camping/survival items. When I retire next year, I won't have to worry much about SHTF. I am upwind, most of the time, from the city and out of range of a terrorist size nuke.......chris3

[Rugerlvr]

I live in another possible Earthquake area. If I have to stay in my home, I'm fine. If I have to leave. I dunno. I'm not planning to take anything except My SHTF rifle (Mini-14), P89, and food, water & temporary shelter, all of which I have. The wife and I are in the process of condensing the necessities into a couple of grub boxes, and camping gear storage area in the garage. Water storage and cases of MREs in the basement. -- We gotta condense because we're actually planning a camping trip next week ;)

[Yakko]

I live at the beginning of a mountain pass. I have friends on the other side of the pass. (A 1/3 tank of gas will cover the trip.) If I had to leave I'd head their way or vice versa.

Only three reasons to leave:
1. radiation
2. biological
3. chemical

[silliman89]

I have a plan, which is basically to have everything I need at a remote location. That way I don't have to carry anything. I just have to get there with the family.

The only problem is that I haven't implemented the plan yet. I have the location, but nothing there yet.

I figure there's still plenty of time, right guys? ... Hello? ... Guys? ... Anybody there? ... Uh-oh ...

[Boom-stick]

Does anyone take fishing equipment with them??

I, for one would pack my spear fishing rig, it's a travel version that packs down nice and small.

[Koobuh]

Well, if it came to that...
we'd probably head east to pick up family, and try to link up with a couple capable people on the way to the hills.
No definate plan exists, unfortunately; that is because, our house is on high, stable ground far away from literally everything that might be in danger of attack.
Barring the local town's Police Chief and a couple Sheriff's deputies that live a few houses down, anyway.
If something goes down, we're hunkering and waiting it out.

Oh, and as far as firearms, why wouldn't you just take a single, sturdy shotgun? A few rounds of a couple different types and you're set for literally everything from rabbits to robots. Unless you're actively LOOKING for trouble, you'll do perfectly fine with just that, at least by my reasoning.

[Leif]

Oh, and as far as firearms, why wouldn't you just take a single, sturdy shotgun? A few rounds of a couple different types and you're set for literally everything from rabbits to robots. Unless you're actively LOOKING for trouble, you'll do perfectly fine with just that, at least by my reasoning.

Because if for some reason you happen to be on foot, shotgun ammunition is both heavy and bulky, which will lead to problems very quickly. That's why, in my post, the pistol caliber carbine is for foot travel, the shotgun for car travel.

Shotguns also tend to weigh a bit more than your average carbine, unless you've decide to load the dang thing down with tons of tactical doodads. Another issue to consider if rapid foot travel is in order.

[Zero_DgZ]

Me, I'd take a basic, knockaround pump action shotgun and a pistol. Pistol should be chambered in 9x19 nowadays, or whatever the most common pistol round of the oppresors (ask for it by name) happens to be in your locality.

If I can't hit it with the shotgun or the pistol I'm not to keen on trying to engage it, because at that rate it's probably entrenched, vehicle mounted, or has lots of friends.

Shotgun ammo is easy to find, even if you have to resort to busting into a Kmart or sporting goods store. Makes a big bang, people are scared of it. Even birdshot does a number on doors and locks.

Works for me.

[72Rover]

Manedwolf brings up a good point - and apologies for hijacking the thread....

>That whole bit reminded me of one of my most adamant >recommendations...that if you ARE in serious isolated trouble
>and need air rescue (flash flood, etc) it's good to always have
>a few 12-gauge flares with your shotgun ammo. Just make
>sure you keep it behind something out of view of the helicopter
>when firing, or the response might not be the one you want!

Good idea...I've got two dozen or so of these from my sailboat. The CG wants to see new ones (three year old or less, I think) during the annual inspection, so I've just held onto the old ones. How badly do these foul up the tube? (All that chlorate has got to be pretty corosive.) Only ever shot 'em out of the 12 ga plastic launcher pistol....

[benEzra]

Oh, and as far as firearms, why wouldn't you just take a single, sturdy shotgun? A few rounds of a couple different types and you're set for literally everything from rabbits to robots. Unless you're actively LOOKING for trouble, you'll do perfectly fine with just that, at least by my reasoning.
Because I don't own one, and likely never will. I enjoy shooting carbines and handguns, and like most gun owners I don't hunt, so I don't really have a use for a shotgun. Anything the 9mm won't handle, a carbine will.

I don't have anything against shotguns, though. (Never argue with anything that's .729 caliber!)

[goon]

In my limited experience, shotguns are very versatile.
With a switch of ammo I can go from a gun that is perfectly suited to indoor defense (reduced recoil buck), outdoor defense (3" Federal full power 00 buck), or even knocking off the nearest big mean animal (slugs). If I had to I could even knock off something little and furry to eat with it.

The problems with a shotgun are that eventhough ammo is common, it is heavy. You can carry a couple rounds of .308 or maybe 4 rounds of 5.56 for one round of 12 gauge and what benefit do you gain from it? You can shoot a rabbit with it but shotguns are loud. It might not be a good idea if you can't afford to draw attention. A shotgun go from up close defense to killing a deer with a switch of ammo but a 5.56, 7.62x39, or .308 will work from point blank to 200 yards or so by just putting the sights on your target. A shotgun would give you the advantage that in the dark you would stand a better chance of hitting but what about the pellets that miss? They are going somewhere. Odds are that at some point law and order will be restored. Can you afford to just haphazardly send projectiles everwhere? The same thing would apply with a full power rifle cartridge on this one.

I am thinking that a 5.56mm has a lot of potential for the type of weapon that would be needed for this.
The rifles themselves are light and compact and if you go with an AR it can be dissassembled and reassembled in seconds. A folding stock AK would be pretty compact too.
The ammo is common and made in this country. Even if you are paying more for it, there was still lots of Federal, Winchester, and UMC 223 ammo around locally when 7.62x39 was nonexistent.
The ammo is light so you can carry more for the same amount of weight or carry less weight and the same amount of ammo. Or split the difference.
The 5.56 is occasionally critisized for difficulty penetrating barriers. In a SHTF, that may mean the difference between one of your misses not killing some innocent bystander where a shot from a larger round would have. If you need penetration you can switch to a mag full of SS109 and have a better chance, although from my understanding it will still not equal the penetration of a heavier round.
The round is generally more accurate than the 7.62x39 (at least the ones I have shot). This may be due to who is making the ammo, but that has been my experience.
Another factor for me is that not everyone in my family is well acquainted with guns. Even my dad, who has shot for over 50 years, would find my AR easier to handle than something heavier. He has degenerative arthritis in his shoulders and the lesser recoil is something he welcomes.

For my uses, my little Olympic AR may just be about perfect. I plan to put a compact 4x scope on it and get ahold of some heavier ammo and see what it will do.
A shorter barreled FAL might do too. With some careful load selection you can switch from something for an urban area to something that will shoot through some stuff. Mine is heavy though and that would be a factor when 2 pounds less of rifle means another quart of water.

[bigj8550]

I live in southern Indiana. After the fall of the USSR I learned somethings that made me go to my current plan. During the cold war my town had two ICBMs aimed at use due to the city's quick industrial change over during WW2 to build p47's LST's and other war machines. Here is a quick overview of my plan. This is by now mean all encompassing. And can be changed at a moments notice. In my garage I have an 84 F150 4WD full undercarriage skid plates 31X10.50r15 3" body lift. I keep it filled up with stabil in the tank I also start it once a month and run it every two months and refill the gas tank every year. It is a long bed with a Camper shell in the bed is a 12 gauge and 2 9mm hand guns, (cheap ones) 1000 rds of 9mm, 500 rds of buck shot, and 200 rds of slugs. All common camping equipment and 2 cases MRE 's. This truck will accommodate my family and I also keep small replacement parts like belts, hoses, and common failure parts in the bed. And some other choice equipment.:cool: I have also worked to make sure that everything in the truck is non electronic in case of EMP. Any thought or comments. BTW in my other choice equipment I do keep gas masks and replacement cartridges.

[Manedwolf]

In my garage I have an 84 F150 4WD full undercarriage

But what's the mileage like on something so old with a V8? I would think it'd be prodigal gas-guzzler under load? A big V8 is good for short-haul power, but for distance, when gas might be veryvery important?

Apologies to the Ford afficionados, but there's a whole host of excellent V6 pickups out there now that have VERY good fuel economy.

And I'd think that'd be one of the primary concerns in a total evacuation scenario?

[greg700]

I spend a lot of time under a ruck nowadays so I know I can carry more than most people (still a depressingly small amount though). I would carry what weapons I could, probably an ar-15 and a pistol for me and a mini-14 (she likes it) and pistol for my wife. Lots of ammunition, some extra food, iodine tablets and a water filter, sewing kit, fishing kit, drinking straw, wire, first aid kit (w/ antibiotics and a serious blister kit), bivy sacks or a tent, a pot, a few fieldstripped MRE's (they are too heavy to carry a bunch) and a lot of pasta/freeze dried food. And long term essentials like boots, knives, survival/sustainable living books, and if space allows, extra firearms. Of course in this situation my wife and I would most likely be joined by several friends who also need to get out of Fayetteville, so we would be able to move as a group. We are also lucky enough to have places to go where extra manpower would be welcomed.

I think it is highly unlikely (as far as unlikely shtf scenarios go) that you would have to hump a ruck and nothing more and walk to an area where you would live sustainably. For most situations that could decay into a serious SHTF situation (that I can think of) you would likely have enough forwarning to at least drive to your alternate location, and possibly enough warning to make several trips/rent a u-haul. Even if something makes cars impractical you still have motorcycles and/or bicycles. You can carry a lot of weight on a bicycle.

Since I am military I will most likely have obligations that prevent me from fleeing somewhere with my wife. I have yet to think of a satisfactory plan for protecting her during a crisis if I cannot stay with her. Any thoughts?

[Manedwolf]

survival/sustainable living books

Books are heavy and bulky. I have the contents of a lot of the survival books as PDFs on a solid-state nonvolatile memory card (for a pocketPC) kept in a metallicized envelope...and car, crank, and solar chargers for the device. An older Palm that takes AAA batteries and has a memory card slot would be good, too. You can put it in something called an "otterbox" that is completely sealed, but lets you operate it, if worried about rain or mud.

You can literally have an entire library on something the size of a thumbnail, good savings of weight and space.

I've got a good deal of the Army manuals, operations manuals for a number of rilfes, the Merck manual, the Physician's Desk Reference of drugs..

Here's just one example, http://www.equipped.com/fm21-76.htm, U.S. Army Survival Manual FM 21-76, as a free download of PDFs. There's others scattered around the web, or available as library cd-rom's off eBay.

[Korimyr the Rat]

I'm starting to get a little better, but I'm crippled. If I got to run, I'm dead-- and I'd prefer my holes in the front.

Same goes for what I can carry. Depends on how many minions I have, and whether or not my vehicle works.

[evan price]

I have to be able to enter Canada so no guns or stuff in the car; except for my CCW and I know how to deal with that.
I keep a little 20" toolbox in the car trunk that has a small pocket sized plastic fishing box with about 8 compartments in it, and a small spool of 20-lb test line. I figure, poles can be cut from whatever I find. All but one compartment is fishing stuff, these are small compartments. One compartment is bandaids, water purifying tabs, matches, small roll electrical tape, razor blade. Also keep about 30' of rope, an Estwing Hammer/Hatchet, small metal mirror, a couple quarts of water, work gloves, small Purple K fire extinguisher, Mini Mag Light, spare black boot laces, spare serpentine belt, basic tool kit, disposable camera, spare winter knit cap, a couple condoms, mylar blanket, a cardboard tube with black and white thread and a couple needles, road flares, 4" stainless lockback cheap-o knife, empty metal gas can, quart of oil, quart of ATF, and a pocket copy of the New Testament... And a roll of yellow crime scene tape. Don't know why I still have that in there.

Contents may change and this is not intended to be my primary SHTF equippage; but it helps to have it instead of nothing.

To be honest, if the S really does HTF, I am more concerned with ensuring water, food, shelter, heat (if winter) than I am with "The correct lower on my AR.." or having enough ammo to withstand a seige from rabid brain-eating robot space zombies.

I mean, anyone who has seen the Ving Rames "Dawn of the Dead" knows, the zombies always win in the end, might as well succumb as soon as possible and spare yourself the horror of a long drawn out terrifying existance followed by a cinematic last stand and inevitable brain consumption.......:D

[Foxtrot427]

Im not prepped all the way yet but I have some things. I would bring my only guns I have now, a .22 savage single shot, and a new england .20 gauge break bbl. I have a bunch of canteens from boy scouts. I have about a thousand rounds of .22 and only about 20 .20 gauge. There is some imperishable food in my pantry. I would take my boots, some coats, blankets, a big 20 pack of 20oz deer park bottles, my water filter, and plenty of fire starting devices. Then Id drive on over to quantico arms.

[45s save lives]

For this post I am going to use what I consider to be the most likely SHTF scenario. That is that a ban or law is passed (probably from the UN) that outlaws some of the weapons that I already own, MAKING me a criminal. I will not sit around and wait for them to knock on the door. I will head into the mountains and sustain/defend myself until such laws or bans are done away with, however that may come to pass. For this excursion I would be wearing camo and carrying everytrhing I need to get by (following the pack light freeze at night philosophy). When the season changes or in the event that I need a resupply Ill have to come into a town and get them somehow. Maybe from a friend or theft. I would be wearing Blackhawk S.T.R.I.K.E LBV with bullet resistant plates, no helmet. In my pack Ill have a decent supply of dehydrated food or field stripped mres and iodine tabs for water. Most of my food will come from hunting and fishing (pack pole). In the pack Ill probably have typical camping/survival gear, E-tool, poncho, rain gear, sleeping systemw/bivy sack, etc. As for weapons, I am a bit undecided. This could also depend on the scenario. In a BAD SHTF scenario I would only want nato ammo firing weapons for ammo availability. But in a not so bad SHTF scenario my choices would be very different. My rifle will probably be my Yugo SKS because it is rugged, reliable, and because it uses stripper clips I can carry more ammo (no mags to add weight). I will carry a sidearm, probably my Colt New Service in 45 Colt or my Taurus 44mag. I see no need for more firearms. If using NATO ammo was a concern Id have to reconsider, and Ill have to acquire different arms as well (good excuse to get more toys). Id take a FAL in 308 and a XD or Glock in 9mm. The way things are going these days I believe it is good for like minded people to brainstorm and be prepared. You just never know! Sorry for being so longwinded. Semper Fi.

[riverdog]

I think part of eclancy's point is that if your plan includes buying guns after the SHTF, you may find that "quantico arms" is closed and everyone who works there has already left. Your credit card is worthless and cash has been undergoing inflation at 100% a day. "Buy it today it will cost double tomorrow." How much gas is in your tank? The gas stations have already run dry and the interstate is a parking lot. How much can you carry?

My primary plan is to bug-in; in a situation like eclancy describes, the roads out of here would be a mess and you'd just die in your car anyway. Much better to just have a secure place close by and just lie low.

[Manedwolf]

Im not prepped all the way yet but I have some things. I would bring my only guns I have now, a .22 savage single shot, and a new england .20 gauge break bbl. I have a bunch of canteens from boy scouts. I have about a thousand rounds of .22 and only about 20 .20 gauge. There is some imperishable food in my pantry. I would take my boots, some coats, blankets, a big 20 pack of 20oz deer park bottles, my water filter, and plenty of fire starting devices. Then Id drive on over to quantico arms.

While those have their merits as small-game-getters, I would highly, highly suggest you, well...get a bit more gun.

[AaronE]

Apologies to the Ford afficionados, but there's a whole host of excellent V6 pickups out there now that have VERY good fuel economy.

It ALSO as the author stated has no real electronics to run it. Those v-6s get MUcH better mileage than the older V-8s...but they have computers to run them. I have an older chevy with points and a carb and a GENERATOR in addition to the alternator. I have a decent chance of it running most anywhere AND I can fix it with hand tools. (up to and including having cracked a piston/cylinder wall...DID that once, had a dead hole with a cottonwood block hammered into it, a spare hoseclamp holding the bearing shells on the crank throw and drove it home on 7 cylinders with the radiator open so as not to build pressure. Installed spare engine the next day)

Aaron

[roscoe]

as the author stated has no real electronics to run it.
Where is the advantage to that? If there is an EMP the coil and battery will not work, nor probably the starter. Is it so old it has points? Otherwise - electronic ignition!

Better get a mule. I think a Stanley Steemer would work, as well.

[Skunkabilly]

Never had to run for my life but 28 lbs (1/4 of my body weight) is my limit. Never had to run uphill, but going fast downhill sucks on the knees.

[NMshooter]

Well, since this has been one of my favorite topics to post on in the past I figured I would chime in with a couple observations:

When the Army mentions a combat load of 30% body weight and march load of 45% body weight those figures are based on men between the ages of 18-25 who can pass the Army Physical Fitness Test.

The 25% figure Skunkabilly has mentioned before is a bit more realistic for most of us, myself included.

That includes all clothing worn.

One of the more famous (or infamous :evil: ) discussions on this subject was the "mule thread" :http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=167498&highlight=soldier%27s+load

Figure out how much you can realistically carry for what distance, then figure out what you must have on your person. Then ditch some of that, and you will have come up with a manageable load for a couple days.

[roscoe]

I love that mule thread. It made me wish I had a mule . . .

[1911 guy]

There are indeed certain items you must have, others that are extremely desireable. Add a firearm and the whole mess can get unweildy. I have a plan similar to many here, go as far as the car can take me, hopefully all the way to one of my two hidey-holes. Having a young son, the load out gets bigger with either little kid food or a stock of adult food that can be rendered small and very chewable.

So, my plan is as follows. Food, water and medicine are available at both of my "holes". Both are occupied and maintained. Both have generators as well as hand pumps on the wells. Both have gardens and a supply of canned goods laid in. Both are near (walking distance) hunting grounds. No, not public, just woods that have critters.

I and my family of three get along to one or the other, if the S hitting the F is big enough, everybody defects to the "hole" to the south. So food, water, meds, etc. are all in place. Creature comforts are there because these places are lived in 24/7. All I need is gas and a clear path or ammo to clear one.

[DPB]

As some of you have stated, having a planned destination, and the distance to that destination are critical concerns. In my humble opinion, I'm going to want a vehicle. On most vehicles, a tank of gas will get you at least 300 miles. If you are running farther than that, you have major drama.

Like some of you, I've had quite a bit of time under the ruck. No offense to anyone, but unless you've been a groundpounder or been attached to a groundpounder unit, you need to go out and carry some weight before making any assumptions about what you'll be able to carry. No disrespect to the backpacking community, but very few sport backpackers have carried the kind of weight we're talking about to survive independently over a significant distance.

I know I'm not the only one to have done this stuff, and others have done more, but just to put it into perspective:

25-30+ mile marches with 60-75 pounds, done it repeatedly.

12 mile speed marches with the same weight, again, done it repeatedly.

Run 5 miles with a 50+ pound ruck in an hour, yes.

Humped all night, several nights in a row, with 100-120 pound ruck, yeah, been there too.

Dude, all of these suck to a level that is nearly impossible to communicate.

Having done that, I do not believe that you are going to be able to carry a survival load AND cover sufficient ground to make walking out a viable option in most cases. If you haven't been carrying the ruck under, forget about it. If you have, you may be able to average 20+ miles a day for a sustained period over relatively flat ground. Can your family do it?

If I have to bail, and you have to come with me, here are some of my considerations.

We will have a map and a planned destination for every period of travel. If possible we will travel during daylight. Travelling at night is slower, increases the chance of injury, getting lost, and getting separated. If the tactical situation dictates, we will travel at night, and adjust our travel goals accordingly.

You are going to need to carry six quarts of water per person, plus purification. You will top up what you're carrying every time you can, because you don't know when the next refill will be. Thats 12 pounds of water per person, plus purifier. When we are at a water source, you will be drinking until you have to urinate every 15 minutes. That's a lot easier than dealing with a heat injury. If you haven't done some extended hiking, you really don't understand how much water you will go through.

Weapons, AR 15, no doubt. Yes, it's essentially a 300 yard gun. Unless you live in Nebraska, you should be able to use terrain so that 300 is enough. If there's a real shooter out there with a real sniper rifle, he's going to own you anyway. I would want one per adult, relatively identical. Maybe 8 mags total. Mags are heavy. Humping an AR is far easier than humpint a .308 anything.

I'm thinking one centerfire and one .22 pistol per group. You aren't going to separate yourself from your rifle, so a pistol is of limited utility. 3-5 mags for the centerfire, 100 rounds for the pistol.

No shotguns. Not enough range, not enough capacity, and ammo is disproportionately heavy.

Food, well, it's going to suck. We'll be eating like 2 meals per day, max. Broken down MREs are a good start. Pasta or dehydrated chow is good if water will be available. It will probably be more like three meals every two days. The issue with food isn't weight, it's bulk, which can be just as much of an issue. We will resupply with as much food as we can carry every time the opportunity presents itself, so if we're eating well, we'll be carrying more weight. We will all be lighter when we get there.

We will not plan to "live of the land" because 1) That would be very difficult in most of North America right now and 2) We will be moving as fast as possible.

Clothes/sleeping gear (snivel gear) - as little as possible. Unless it going to be under 40 F., probably no sleeping bags. As little cold gear as we can get away with. Also, unless it is below freezing (and usually not even then), you will not move with snivel gear on. It makes you sweat more, which makes gives you a higher potential for both heat and cold injuries. Also, we'll probably be standing watch, so we won't need one set of sleep gear per person.

Med Kit: We will be doing everything we can NOT TO GET HURT. Supplies will primarily be for treating sprains, strains, minor cuts, and gunshot wounds. Since trauma centers will likely be overcrowded or out of business, you can't plan on getting higher level treatment.

Books, maybe one of those little tiny Bibles, possibly a small survival manual. That's it, one each, not one for everyone.

Please note, none of this addresses bringing children or anyone but healthy adults. If you have children or health issues, I don't believe walking out is even an option.

Like I said, I'll be wanting a vehicle because walking out could very well become the defining event of your life. By the time we get to where we're going, everyone with me is going to be tired, hungry, thin, and highly pissed off at me. Like they teach at SERE, don't fail to survive because you're trying to be comfortable.

There are a lot of other issues, but it's getting late here.

[Low-Sci]

Its not an attractive option at all, but as long as the question was posed...

12 pounds of water all by itself constitutes 8% of my body weight already. Since mobility is what will keep you alive more than anything else, I'd restrict my carrying weight to more like 20% of my body weight. Since I don't train to carry even that much, I might even have to go lower. Assuming the only rifle of an appropriate caliber, my 91/30, weighs 9lbs loaded I'm already at 14% of my body weight. That leaves me 6%, or 9 lbs.

Things that will prove themselves useful within that 9 lbs are food, but not much, a utilitarian knife, some water purifier, map, compass, flashlight, and a couple ACE bandages, maybe some neosporin, a watch, and maybe the outside chance of a couple (2) reloads for my rifle. Most other things will end up being dead weight.

The idea of walking out is that you're walking, which makes it the primary activity. You're not out to go camping, start fires, wage war, or hide out. You can hide out when you get to where you're going.

Even carrying 20% of my body weight could very well prove too much if I don't build the stamina to handle it. First thing to go will be the rifle. Being without it makes me more mobile and gives me more stamina, and more energy I can spend evading threats rather than lugging around a boomstick that makes me exhausted while evading threats. If I had a better rifle for the purpose, I might change my preferences, but the likelihood of a rifle saving my life over the likelihood of the extra energy saving my life is a no-brainer equation around where I live.

If you have to carry things and walk out, then weight and water become the two most valuable things on earth. You can live for much longer without food than without water, and any time you save weight means you go faster, farther, and more efficiently.

[Mannlicher]

We live north of Town, which is good, but on one side is a lot of 'subsidized housing', full of the type of people you would expect in that type of dwelling. The neighbors and I have discussed this, and barring the town being destroyed or something, we will stick together. I think we have most of the bases covered, with regards to supplies.
I have been looking at options for some time, and believe that just staying here is as good as trying to get to somewhere else.
One thing to bear in mind, is that you might not know what the conditions are at your chosen destination. With communications out, or sparse, you might be going into a worse situation than exsists where you are at.

[sm]

I have a new plan. I have learned from history...

First I need to check the local thrift store and get a NOPD uniform. It is my understanding there were more uniforms than officers anyway...

With all the whining and bed-wetting, folks won't think nothing of a NOPD shirt with jearns here in AR. I figure folks will be oblivious to a blue truck with "Eat At Joes" magnetic sign...signs and uniform are "official" - close enough for gubmint work.

Traffic being going out, I'll be going in - hide in plain site. I am going to take over a box Store, one of my "person's in arms" a hardware store, another...

Naw'lins taught me to hide in plain site, take what need and one can get rich off this dealie.

Humm...we gots a Hyatt here too, might as well get a free command post huh?

<sarcasm >

I forget the title of the book: Part of the plot : Young lady lived in Walmart undetected,had everything she needed...been a few years ago...

Another bit of history from my youth, and my understanding it continues..

-Hobos, and tramps sharing about "unlocked doors" and living in various stores...arrangement if you will, they cleaned and mopped,odd jobs, for a warm dry place, and food, clothes...history lessons learned from hanging around the RR tracks...time pass and move on.

One fellow was doing a thesis once upon a time, pretending to be a homeless person. He did all right, so did his kind. Didn't need no gubmint, they had "stores" put back and had a network going on. Riots hit , later on a tornado it...
They stayed in a place, armed, and kept the looters away...owner didn't care, glad to have them, so they ate some groceries...so did the owner.

See he and his folks stocked groceries, swept and mopped, did light repairs in exhange for goods and services. Somebody needed to stay local to run the ham radio, and network with others in town...

One of the most facinating PhDs I ever heard speak - he had pretended to be a bum doing his research for his thesis.

[roscoe]

If you have children or health issues, I don't believe walking out is even an option.
And there you have it - with two toddlers, the Mrs. and I will be rolling on four wheels. I have 1000 miles of gas, four low, and an extra spare. Out of my way!!!

The problem is diapers - how do I bring the 300 diapers I will need? How many .22 cartridges will people trade for a box of number 5 Huggies? Should I stock up on .22 ammo or Huggies?




By the way, I would love to get the title and author of that thesis.

[rmgill]

M35A2 MultiFuel. When you absolutely, positively have to get out of town. Accept no substitutes.

http://www.freakchylde.net/~ryangill/images/M35/M35A2.2.jpg

2.5 ton cargo capacity off road. 5 ton cargo capacity on road. 6' wide and 12' long bed.

55 Gallon Fuel tank, can have a second tank hung on the left side.

Multifuel engine that can handle Diesel, Kerosene, Gasoline, waste vegetable oil (gotta heat it though), Biodiesel, ATF, Oil all mixed in the tank at once. The Fuel Density compensator adjusts fuel delivery to the injector pump based on fuel viscosity. Anything but high octane aviation fuel. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/modules/PNphpBB2/images/smiles/driver.gif

Space for 3 in the cab, bunch more in the bed.

5 speed gear box with 2 speed transfer box for low range. Air Shift front axles on some models, sprag front axles on others. Aftermarket front lockout hubs are available to reduce rolling resistance.

Chemically resistant vinyl cargo top that doubles as a shelter on the road.

Keep it mostly Military looking and you'll be waved past a lot of road blocks with out a single question. :cool:

900x20" tires standard. CAn accept 1200x20" and 1100x20" tires, both as super singles or as duals.

6x6 configuation means you can get past a lot of terrain. The size is difficult to stop and can ford water that'll stop most vehicles. A taller fording kit can be installed for top of cab fording depth (deeper than the driver/passengers can handle).

Air over hydraulic brake system provides a ready source of ~100 psi air for air tools (moderate to low CFM).

Steel construction, no cheap plastic.

Can tow a 10,000 lb trailer no problem.

Options for longer wheel base models, 12' rigid wall shelters in the bed, 10,000 lb winches (as mine has) hard top and other features.

Can mount a crew served weapon like an M2 .50, M1919 or other MGs on a ring mount over the cab. :evil:

Beats the stuffing out of anyone else's pickup save top speed and acceleration. If you want top speed, get a sports car. :neener:

[DPB]

Roscoe - good point on the Huggies. Also, an excellent example of an item where the space it takes up is far more restrictive than the actual weight.

SM - That's good info about living off of Wal Mart and the stuff about the hobo arrangements. However, I believe that either of these would only be feasible either in lightly populated areas, or in areas where the disaster involved a massive population reduction. The ability to use the "off the net" resources will be greatly reduced when everyone is off the net and competing for those same resources.

If Katrina, Rodney King, etc., have taught us one thing, it's that a civil disaster will be anything but civil.

[Lou629]

You can try to run, or shelter in place. In either case you can't hope to take or store enough 'stuff' to last forever. A lot of SHTF planning & ideas tend to look at TEOTWAWKI scenarios. I consider the end of the world much less likely than the 3-5 day or 3-5 week localized event. I think of things like Katrina/Rita/NOLA writ large or small, and in my neck of the woods as being much more likely.
Since i live just south of the NYC metro. area, running away just isn't going to be possible after the first hour or so anyway. Think of the Rita traffic-jams in Texas last year. That's normal traffic on a good day up here. As we say in Tony Soprano land: fuhgeddabouddit! Best to shelter in place for as long as possible, lay low, and stay in touch with the immediate neighbors. If i have the 36-48 hours of warning that the NO residents did, sure i'd get out before the feces hit the fan. Barring that, i'm staying put, rather than die out on highways that will be impassable & full of road-ragers, and all in want of gas, water & food.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Best way to get through a survival situation is not to get into one in the first place. The folks who fled from Katrina fared better than those who stocked up and weathered the storm and resulting social/political catastrophe.

Stockpiling water, food, ammo, and all the necessities is easy. The problem is the social element. If you stick it out, you WILL have to deal with greedy neighbors who think that their desperation entitles them to your supplies. Your community's criminal underclass WILL explode, and you WILL have to deal with them yourself, without any help from the authorities. You WILL have to deal with authorities who want to evacuate you from your home against your will, confiscate your weapons, stick you into a filthy and unsupplied and crime-infested "shelter".

Do you really want to put yourself into that position?

Keep supplies in your home. Be prepared to "bug in" for a while. But don't kid yourself. Trying to stick it out at home in the midst of a disaster is probably going to be a bad idea.

A high priority in veryone's SHTF plans should be a reliable vehicle, plenty of fuel, and lots of cash. Be ready to move yourself and your family to an entirely different region of the country on a moment's notice, and stay there for a few weeks. Be prepared (mentally) to leave your home and all of your precious supplies and just GO, even if all you have with you is your family and the clothes on your collective backs.

[Barbara]

I'm going to go home, grab a good book, and sit on the porch and watch the world go to hell.

[Lou629]

Headless,
Trying out your idea of moving "to an entirely different region of the country on a moments notice" in this area, and all you'll do is die out on the highway. Perhaps it would work in Indiana, but it sure won't in northern NJ. Maybe if i lived out in the middle of nowhere in Indiana somewhere that would be good advice, but your idea will get you about five city blocks in this area. You haven't lived until you've been in one of our local gridlock traffic-jams that happen every day over here for NO reason whatsoever. Give the locals a REASON and they'll turn the highways into parking lots before you can blink an eye. Unless there's at least 24-36 hours warning of an impending feces-festival, my chances are much better in my home, rather than trapped in my car on some impassable highway.
Edit for spelling, typo.on 5/25

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

There are plenty of ways to travel. If you don't expect to be able to drive a car, then find something else. A motorcycle is an obvious idea; it could easily slip between rows of gridlocked cars.

I think you have it backwards. City folks especially need to bug out, whereas we country folks might be able to bug in successfully. We have fewer people to cause trouble for us. Fewer neighbors, fewer criminals, fewer cops, fewer problems. We have more land per capita, which means that we have valuable resources to call upon. It only takes a few acres to sustain a man indefinitely.

The social problems of a serious disaster will be orders of magnitude worse for you big city dwellers. If the delivery trucks stop rolling in, and the water stops running, and the electricity goes out for a few days, there will be millions of people who get really desperate really fast. If the garbage trucks and sewers stop working, your once clean and healthy city will quickly start to fester. If law and order ceases, your inner city savages will cause untold trouble.

If you wanna stick it out under those conditions, that's your prerogative. Doesn't seem like an especially smart idea to me.

Good luck!

[Lou629]

Again, as we say in Tony Soprano-land; Fuhgheddaboudit!
I agree with you, millions of people will get "really desperate really fast", and most of them and most of that will be happening out on the roadways locally. If you don't know the area, trust me on this.
I am fortunate to live outside the 'inner-city' core, I'm more in the 'burbs over here, but i would still have to use the same highways that all the millions of others would in an emergency. No thanks. I'll take my chances if the feces hits the fan with no prior warnings or notice and just stay put, while a lot of them will probably die trapped in their cars. Give me 24-36 hours of warning, and i will be long gone, agreed, but not with a surprise event, no sir.
I'm sure ymmv out there in the country, but it's a bad idea locally. If i lived 'out there' somewhere, i'd probably stay put too, not as much reason to run as you say, but over here running will be everybodys' first idea and, in a surprise event, the net result will be gridlock and mass casualties. Wish i lived in Indiana!:) or was still in my home state of Pa. Best of luck to you too, just in case!
Edit, spell/typo. 5/25

[DRZinn]

HTG, you're assuming that all those greedy neighbors will know what I've got.

Anyway, in rush hour traffic speed averages about 25 mph. In a disaster situation 25 would be a dream. The nearest ways East from me are 30 miles south or north. West is the ocean. Wanna go 30 miles on a southern California highway after the SHTF? And that's just to get to the I-8 or I-10, they'd still be jammed for many miles east.

[NineseveN]

Loading up the car? Well, considering my SHTF plans include going into moderately deep seclusion in the thick, it makes very little sense to me to tote anything in the car that I cannot carry with me once I ditch the car. Maybe some extra food and water for the short trip to tens upon tens of thousands of acres of mountains, streams, lakes and wood...but that's about it. Maybe an extra firearm (auto loading rifle) just in case of a road barrier/block/skirmish that was I don't dip into my SHTF load.

I guess to me, I'm gonna plan around what I can carry...and I don't have anything sentimental enough to me that doesn't breathe that I'd need to take with me.

[MudPuppy]

When the Rita scare hit after katrina, there were thousands of people in Texas that bugged out and were bumper to bumper from houston to d/fw and san antonio.

Just the other morning a 18wheeler got sideways on the interstate--it was a parking lot. Feeder roads...packed. Little side road that only i know about with 2 low water crosses were backed up about 3 miles.

Shot big holes in my "keep the motor home ready to go" plan. Although, at least it has a potty, water, fridge, etc. But parked amongst the rest of central texas, I'm not sure how long till someone would want to share.

Either way, it won't be purty.

[Lou629]

Since i'm stuck up here in NJ, if y'all would be so kind as to stop by Gaines Ranch Loop and pick up my parents on your way out of town, i'd sure 'preciate it amigo.

[goon]

I guess like anything else, it all depends on your environment. I have been looking at this too. I have had a bit of an interest in this for awhile now (guess it comes with participating in forums like this) but the whole mess in New Orleans really got me thinking. Some of the ideas rattling around in my head...
1. It is good to have somewhere to run to.
2. Alot of the stuff I have would become expendable. If it doesn't feed me, keep me warm, or keep people from butchering me, I would have just about no use for it. Following that logic, why spend a whole lot of money on that stuff? Better off to spend it on ammo.
3. How many guns do I need? I think I could do with two (centerfire rifle and a centerfire handgun) if I had to carry everything and be pretty well set. That doesn't mean that I am ever actually going to get down to two, but it does mean that having a half dozen guns around just because they are cool doesn't make sense. My Mosin Nagants and some others have been sold and my SKS will soon be on the block. No point in having rifles that you can't take with you. I would just be leaving weapons and ammo for someone who could use them against me. If not that, as I said before, better off spending it on ammo, water, and Bush's baked beans. An extra rifle rusting in the corner does me no good at all when I am dehydrated.
4. Given my experiences with different vehicles, older is better. Yes, a 302 Ford engine will burn more gas than your little fuel injected 4 cylinder. But what happens when something goes wrong with your 2006 Wondercar? Eventhough you could theoretically fix it, I have found that they are just a whole lot more complicated. If you have an '80-something F-150 with a spare alternator, belts, and an extra radiator hose, odds are that you won't run into a problem that you can't fix yourself. They are generally a much more mechanical breed of beast. Take the bad part off, bolt the good one on, and away you go.
Complicated is bad. Simple is good. Older is simpler. Therefore, old is good.
5. Wear comfortable shoes.

[Byron Quick]

If things get really bad for an extended period, I'm not too confident about individuals, families, or small groups survivability out in the boondocks. Got a group put together for protection out in your well defended hidden bunker? How many doctors and nurses? Just what can they handle in the bunker?
And the list of point failures due to lack of skilled and trained personnel in small groups goes on and on and on.

I don't live in a city. I won't live in a city. So I don't have to evacuate from a city. Same thing with coastal areas. Earthquake prone areas, etc.

I live in a small town with relatives available. Agricultural county. Food. Fuel from biomass. Good hunting. Doctors. Not close to targets even if they are hit. Not close to probable likely targets. Far enough from the coast that even a monster hurricane directly hitting the area won't be catastrophic by the time it gets here.

So, I'm not going anywhere further than a relative's house to borrow some tool I don't have. Will probably still be able to work in whatever health care is available. I'll work for barter or even for an IOU of assistance as needed.

Nuclear plant twelve miles away. Early on, I'll be trying to organize for its defense, continued operation, and maintenance. Recovery will occur first in areas with electricity if the SHTF that severely on a widespread scale.

I'll stick with a small community that has the capability of hunkering down and surviving...as a community. Odds are much better for me and mine than hitting the road for some supposed sanctuary that is probably going to be inundated with very hungry and very desperate survivors from cities where it was really bad. Pretty sure the local NG unit can handle that. Won't have to drop but four or five small bridges to control access to the county by road.

My plan has more to do with getting back here if something happens while I'm away. My emergency setup is modular. Stage I is the vehicle supplies. Stage II is the mountain bike and trailer when it's apparent that Stage I must be abandoned. Stage III is the feet and carrying a ruck. A ruck is taken off from time to time. Stage IV are absolutely basic and essential survival items that can be carried at all times....even while sleeping. Just in case something happens that requires bugging out RIGHT NOW!...not even taking time to throw on the ruck Don't carry water beyond a Camelbak. Carry a Katadyn filter. Live in a very well watered area.

I watch current events closely. I watch weather predictions and trends closely. I adjust travel accordingly. In late August 2005, if I had been going to Texas to visit friends, I would have been heading west on I40 not I10.

Same as nightspots, I listen to news and scuttlebutt, I don't go to trouble prone places. Considering New Madrid fault activity, I probably won't head west on I-40 in the future. Won't see me on I-10 heading west either, if there's a tropical storm in the Caribbean.

I prefer not to hang out at targets...whether natural or perhaps a target for man made grief. The coastal areas and earthquake zones are uninhabitable territory as far as I'm concerned. I will visit the coast...dependent on the weather report, of course. I don't visit earthquake zones. Well, the 1886 Charleston earthquake was felt in this area. It might have knocked a brick chimney over around here. Hurricane Hugo was still raising Cain when it got this far inland north of here in South Carolina. About the only damage to houses was if a tree fell on it, though.

If you live outside of cities, away from the coast, and outside of zones that will probably be hit by strong earthquakes, you'd probably be better off staying put in an area where you can count on assistance from your neighbors.

So, I'll still be able to draw on the resources of this community. Pretty good supply. Good chance of retaining electricity for several years. Health care. Farmers. Mechanics. Machinists. Hunting. Optometrists. Hundreds of needed skills that I don't have to either learn, obtain the tools, or do without. Just ask around,"How can I get this done?" "Who has this for trade?" "What do they need?" "I've credit built up at the hospital and Dr. So and So's office, think they need health care or would like to open an account against future need?"

It's good to have somewhere to run to...granted. It's better to not have to run. Cities are dependent on the transportation net for food much less everything else. Small towns in agricultural areas are not if forced to be self sufficient. I'll stay in the small town. Rather than the mountain cabin, it would be a good investment to find a small town that's not in the evacuation envelope of cities and develop some connections there...enough to be accepted at need. Caution, simply owning a cabin and a small piece of property in the area might not get you past the roadblocks. It will depend on how many destitute refugees have tried to get in and what skills you can contribute to the community. Lacking desirable skills, it will be very important to have strong connections in that community...more important than owning property there. Lacking valuable skills or strong local connections, you might be handed more paper money than you paid for your property and told,"We just bought it back in accordance with county ordinance 52-338...now hit the road." Very good chance that the local militia will have much more-and heavier-firepower at the roadblocks than your entire group possesses...making your weapons a very poor choice under the circumstances.

Firearms and ammunition are good things to have in an emergency. In a SHTF situation, whipping out a community is going to heighten the odds of your survival tremendously, though. I'll take both.

As far as the "if I can't eat it, use it for immediate survival, or shoot with it...why do I need it?" philosophy goes-if things get bad and stay bad, items such as hand tools will be invaluable items for trade. Skill with those tools will be even more valuable. That anvil, hammers, and tongs plus the knowledge to use them to repair other tools could be your ticket to admittance to a sanctuary-and survival. I seriously doubt a self sufficient community will be interested in admitting you for your armament and ammunition.

[DRZinn]

Some of us don't have a choice, yet, of where to live. :(

[Byron Quick]

Some of us don't have a choice, yet, of where to live.

This is the most important factor in survival. The only inhabitants of Pompeii who survived the catastrophic eruption of Mount Vesuvius can be grouped into two sets: those who happened to be out of town and those who had moved elsewhere. No inhabitant survived due to owning an arsenal, wealth, or power. Sometimes the sole route to survival is to not be there when catastrophe occurs.

I could make much more money in my profession in Southern California. Employers could pay ten times as much there and you wouldn't see me in Southern California. You couldn't give me a mansion on the slopes of Mt. St. Helen...not if a conditiion was I had to live there or even visit one day.

Your vacation home at the beach is in the same category to me. Honey trap for your family and friends. The single most effective tactic to survive natural disaster or terrorist attack is to identify possible problem areas and avoid being there.

[Low-Sci]

Well around here, a natural disaster is most likely to manifest itself in the form of a tornado. It would have to hit highly populated areas, like downtown, and to cause sufficient damage that I would have to leave the area on foot (which was the original premise), it would have to be a pretty good tornado.

I suppose a blizzard that broke a multitude of records and came unannounced could have the same disabling effect.

To me the term "run" means physically, with your two legs. Obviously if you had a choice you'd take a vehicle, but if the question was "how much can you run with" you're limited by what you can physically carry on your person, not how much trunk space you have.

Least that's how I see it.

[Byron Quick]

You might need to stay in Wisconsin:D Down here, when people talk about running down to the mall, you might get a mite winded before you discover that the mall is thirty miles away.

Same thing with "cut left here." They're not telling you to slash to the left at a certain point. It will mean "Turn left right now."

[Manedwolf]

The only inhabitants of Pompeii who survived the catastrophic eruption of Mount Vesuvius can be grouped into two sets: those who happened to be out of town and those who had moved elsewhere. No inhabitant survived due to owning an arsenal, wealth, or power. Sometimes the sole route to survival is to not be there when catastrophe occurs.

Add another group to that...those that owned boats and those closest to the harbor.

If you read the histories, the fishing vessels, private luxury vessels and cargo ships bugged out in a hell of a hurry as soon as the eruption began, many carrying as many people as they could. Pliny the Elder, whose histories are well-known, brought a ship in to rescue a friend whose villa was at the foot of the mountain. He even described people having tied pillows to their heads with napkins as cushion against hails of falling volcanic pebbles.

Ran out of boats, though, most of the bodies have been found at the harbor or trying to get to the harbor, where they apparently were hoping more ships would be sent by the Empire, by their relatives, or (for the wealthy) their companies or clients to rescue them.

Sound familiar?