NOT LEO BASHING

[el44vaquero]

This is not a thread to bash LEOs. I have all the respect in the world for them. I have a simple question as to what you all would do in this situation.

This morning around 1 am I got a call from an old girlfiend who's living in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. She is screaming and crying that someone is trying to break in her house. She says two men are behind it and one is at each of her doors trying to kick them in. Before this, she was walking through the house shutting off lights on her way to bed. She makes it to the kitchen to see a man coming in her kitchen door. She screams causing him to momentarily hault, and therefor giving her time to slam the door shut in his face and lock it. He yells through the door that she mind as well open it because he was getting in anyway. She calls my sister, and is told to go to her room, push couch in front of door, and call police. She gets a hold of Bartlesville PD and they tell her someone will be out shorty. She lives three blocks from the PD. It took them a hour to finally get there. My little sister's boyfriend was the closest so he went over there and when he pulled up the two thugs bolted. PD told her she had nothing to worry about, but this morning she found a note on her car that said, "We'll be back for you sweetheart." She called the PD again and they came and got the note.

I found out today she didn't leave the backdoor unlocked, but it was a faulty lock. I replaced it and did a full lockdown on the place to make sure it was as secure as possible.

What are your thoughts and opinions of the whole thing including the 1 hour respond time in Bartlesville less than a halfdozen blocks from the station?

[crofrog]

Go buy her a gun, get her head screwed on straight, and get her shooting it.

Personally I'd covertly stay with her for the next few night's and hope they come back.

[Zundfolge]

Personally I'd covertly stay with her for the next few night's and hope they come back.
:scrutiny:
Personally I'd covertly stay with her for the next few night's and hope they DON'T come back ... but be prepared for if they do.



Get her a gun ... get her to the range ... remind her that according to the SCOTUS the police have ZERO obligation to protect her ... their job is to catch the guys after they brutalize her.

[odysseus]

PD told her she had nothing to worry about, but this morning she found a note on her car that said, "We'll be back for you sweetheart."

She has no idea at all in any way or possible association of any type or guess who these people might be?:confused:

[MarshallDodge]

I agree with the "buy her a gun and take her to the range" posts. Personal protection is her responsibility and the police can't be there to babysit.

Police are not obligated to answer a 911 call and may have been on another call or between shifts.

[el44vaquero]

She's shot my S&W Model 10. She really likes it and shoots it well. I didn't tell her, but I went to the local pawn shop and bought her a Model 10. Plan on putting a few hundred rounds downrange over the next few days with her.

[crofrog]

Personally I'd covertly stay with her for the next few night's and hope they DON'T come back ... but be prepared for if they do.

Some people just need a good killing.

[CAS700850]

This is why it is up to the individual to take responsibility for his/her own safety, and the police cannot be relied upon to do so. The police, in general, do the best that they can given resouces and demands. In my county, the Sheriff's Department has 7-10 deputies on the road at any given time for the entire county, excluding the incorporated villages and cities. Have them respond to a serious situation where multiple officers are needed, and you may wait 30+ minutes for a response, due to no other reason than having a deputy drive to your location.

Arm her. Teach her. Pray for her. Not necessarily in that order.

[Trip20]

Are we to assume this is some random act and that in no way are the two door-bashers involved with this woman? She has no idea who they may be?

It seems a little anomalous that two complete strangers would attempt such a boisterous entry into someone's home (apparently not very stealthy), get scared away by a person(s) arrival on the scene, and then again risk their hide placing a note on her vehicle to tell her they would be back. This would make sense if they had some sort of score to settle which would lead me to believe they know her in some capacity.

If these were complete strangers they’d more than likely move on to the next victim as she proved to be (or appeared to be) too much trouble.

Not saying it’s impossible that two stranger nut jobs have become fixated with your lady friend. Just seems peculiar that they would not just move on to easier pickins.

Good luck. You’re on the right track getting her armed and trained.

[Zero_DgZ]

Get boomstick. Bring the dog. Camp out.

[el44vaquero]

She said she saw them earlier in the day hanging around in the neighborhood. She thought they might be part of the work crews that are remodeling the homes around there.

[Big_R]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but a few things don't pass the smell test.

1. If a guy was already in an open door, how did her screaming buy her enough time to close and lock the door?

2. Kicking in doors isn't that hard, especially with a defective lock. If I was trying to kick in doors, I would probably give up in the time it takes to make three phone calls.

3. The whole leaving a note thing sounds funny.

In a way, I hope I'm right, because I think she's lying to you and was in no real danger. In another way I hope I'm wrong, which means she's telling the truth, but in possible danger. Either way, invite her to stay with you or your little sister's boyfriend for a while.

Ryan

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Adding to Big R's analysis (and sniffing the air as well).

What did they want? Burglary? Rape? Robbery and Assault? It sounds like rape ... "We'll be back for you..." They knew she was home so burglary is not the motive.

Were these guys showing her their faces, or were they masked? She said she recognized them, so they had to be showing their faces...

She doesn't know them?

These are two very bold criminals...

I could be concerned for her life if the story pans out...

IMHO / YMMV / TWAGOS

[High Planes Drifter]

Yeah, Im smelling flounder on this one too El44. Not to be nosey, but you mentioned this lady is an ex. Is there a chance she would fabricate something in hopes to get you to camp out at her place for a few days? Has she asked, or brought it up? It just strikes me as odd that a full grown man with every intention of entering a residence is overpowered at the door by a (can we assume?) petit woman. And the self written note is very peculiar. I wouldnt think thugs would walk around with a post-it pad and ball point pens in thier pockets. Did you see the note and look at the handwriting? I, as others, hope this is actually the case and that your lady friend isnt in any real danger.

[Tomcat1066]

Regardless of how anyone feels about the smell test on this one, get her armed and ready to defend herself in case these two scumbags come back. Sure, it sounds odd, almost like something out of a movie or TV show rather than something that really happened, but I have no reason to doubt it. Further, if it is BS, so be it. If it's not, and the people empowered to help her protect herself don't believe it and something happens....well, I know I couldn't live with myself.

I'm going to show this to my wife, who so desperately needs to learn now, but thinks she should wait till she's "ready". Maybe this will help her get ready.

Tom

[rnovi]

A 100+ pound angry and hyper protective dog is a start. A 12 guage with 00 buck to the chest is a another acceptable response.

I do a lot of business travel, on the road quite a bit. My wife sleeps with a 9mm on the bedstand and a very paranoid cat that wakes up at the slightest noise. (I'd prefer a dog, but the cat works out well...).

a gun, time at the range, and awareness.

that, and the world needs a whole lot less ugly people out there...

[Zero_DgZ]

This is considerably less strange than some of the stuff I've had happen to me in my lifetime. I'd believe it.

[Wastemore]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bad idea for either of you to stay there waiting to see what happens?

[Vex]

One hour response time when there is a robbery in progress? Wow, that's very angering.

My advice: Call the local TV news outlets and let them know what happened. That'll fix the piss poor department in a hurry. LEOs hate the news media, and it's the best weapon to use when your civil servants are nowhere to be found.

[BullfrogKen]

They left a note on her car . . . ? ? ?

Really. They figured out which car she drives? Or does she live in a single family dwelling? Something is really, REALLY odd about this. I find it highly improbable, in fact nearly impossible, she's being truthful.

She does not know who these folks are? And that the local police are disinterested to the point of waiting an hour to arrive? Most young cops would be running every red light in town with the hope of being there in shining armor to chase away the dragons.

Once they discovered she was single, she'd have to beat back the volunteers offering to "drive by, just to make sure everything was OK."

Maybe I'm just jaded . . . .


But I got a VERY similar call from a girl back when I was single. The only thing bothering her was that she was randy . . . and very good at knowing how to manipulate men.

[XavierBreath]

I think Big R and Bullfrog Ken are on the money. This story doesn't add up at all. None of it. I think your ex is feeding you a line of garbage.

I'd call bovine byproducts on her story if I were you. Tell her to get her new boyfriend to take care of her now, it's no longer your problem. If she doesn't have a new boyfriend, tell her to go find one. If she wants a gun, tell her to go buy one. If she wants to leave her place because she's scared, tell her the Holiday Inn has vacancies. You don't need these histrionics.

[JohnKSa]

So if the lock was faulty, what kept them out of the house long enough for your sister's boyfriend to get there?

I can't imagine the cops in a small town in OK taking an hour to respond to a woman saying that two guys were breaking into her house.

You're right, there's a problem, but it's with her story, not with the police response time.

Ask yourself why she would do something like this and see where it gets you.

[Low-Sci]

Police are not liable for your defense, whether they're a block away or ten miles away. The supreme court has ruled this way a number of times.

That said, that kind of response time is, in my humble, totally civilian perspective, absolutely unacceptable. It only proves an important point that is widely agreed upon in the self-defense world, and that is dependence on police is a mistake, no two ways about it. Assume they can't help you.

I would even take that a step further and say that police can't help you, ever, period. The supreme court says they don't have to.

But also, it wouldn't hurt to get involved with the PD on this. One hour response time is unacceptable, and I'd be willing to bet the Police Chief would say the same thing if you wrote a letter explaining the situation. Police are referred to as "civil servants," so give them your two cents on how they can serve you better.

[tinner man]

Leave it that way, maybe she is setting you up? Why did you seperate, figure you did what you could and "No Mas".

Check with the PD and find out the truth.

[Cosmoline]

Yet another in the long list of ideal roles for the .30/30.

[Double Naught Spy]

This morning around 1 am I got a call from an old girlfiend who's living in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. She is screaming and crying that someone is trying to break in her house. She says two men are behind it and one is at each of her doors trying to kick them in. Before this, she was walking through the house shutting off lights on her way to bed. She makes it to the kitchen to see a man coming in her kitchen door. She screams causing him to momentarily hault, and therefor giving her time to slam the door shut in his face and lock it. He yells through the door that she mind as well open it because he was getting in anyway. She calls my sister, and is told to go to her room, push couch in front of door, and call police. She gets a hold of Bartlesville PD and they tell her someone will be out shorty. She lives three blocks from the PD. It took them a hour to finally get there. My little sister's boyfriend was the closest so he went over there and when he pulled up the two thugs bolted. PD told her she had nothing to worry about, but this morning she found a note on her car that said, "We'll be back for you sweetheart." She called the PD again and they came and got the note.

I found out today she didn't leave the backdoor unlocked, but it was a faulty lock. I replaced it and did a full lockdown on the place to make sure it was as secure as possible.

What are your thoughts and opinions of the whole thing including the 1 hour respond time in Bartlesville less than a halfdozen blocks from the station?

What do you feel about your ex girlfriend having such an inability to know what to do in a crisis? She called her sister. Why? What was her sister going to do. Her sister provided advice which was good, but locking, barricading, and calling the police are no brainers for which she should not have needed instruction. If she was that bad off that the sister needed to provide instruction, then why the hell didn't the sister have her arm herself with anything useful (knife, hammer, bat, etc, since she doesn't have a gun, apparently)? She is an adult, not a child. This is basic common sense in modern society, even in Bartlesville, OK. Actually, I have been there. I am not sure why she doesn't already have a gun and a mentality to deal with such matters. She isn't from there, is she?

She called the cops and said people were breaking in her home and they hung up on her after saying someone would be by? That sounds hokey. Have her get a lawyer and get a copy of the 911 call. FYI, that aspect is a 911 dispatcher problem, if true, not a "police" problem in a true sense.

So she called you? Do you live close by? If you don't live close by, why call you? For the crisis she was having, she sure seemed to have a lot of time to play on the phone. She called her sister. She called the Police. She called you...and the guys were STILL trying to break in? Did she also do the barricading as suggested? Did she have the sense to get a weapon in the process of doing all those things, or did she just spend time jawing on the phone? Those are some really slow, not too bright burglars if they didn't get in by then.

I see several folks say you should buy her a gun and take her to the range. Screw it. Let her buy her own gun and take herself to the range. She is a big girl. Why would you buy your ex-girlfriend a gun if you didn't buy her one when she was your active squeeze? How much will you invest in a relationship that is over?

Nothing is wrong with a gun, but until her head IS on straight, she won't use it or even know what to do with it if there is a crisis. The events, as described, already demonstrate this. She needs crisis management skills. A gun won't do her any good if she doesn't use it. How many weapons did she have in her home already that she didn't use or gather up for us? McKown at Tacoma Mall had a gun and opted not to draw it before confronting a shooter who then promptly shot McKown several times. Having a gun isn't an answer to anything if she won't use it. It is an option, but unused options are meaningless when they are the options that should have been used.

[Alex45ACP]

I think she's lying to you

+1

[bowfin]

el44vaquero,

Keep us informed on what you find out, whether it was for real, a "Cry Wolf" ploy, or an eternal mystery.

If someone did leave a message that said something to the effect that "We'll be back for you", I would post a sign saying "I can't decide whether you come into my house, but I alone decide who gets to leave...":D

[pat86323]

ok i honestly do not know about the story or any of that, i am however gettting angry that everyone keeps saying that it isnt the cops' responsibility to protect. And all the nonsense that all the cops might have been busy. I think this is complete and utter bs as i have never seen or heard of anything happening that has occupied the cops who parouse around town looking for high school parties and broken tail lights. I personally do not dislike cops i do however think that their job description should be changed if they continue not protecting and serving. Maybe "to harrass and fine" should be the new motto. Any leo's on the forum this is not nessisarily directed at you but im sure you can look at your own department and see that over half of the cops there would pull someone over for having a taillight out or something stupid like that, but would drive straight past someone with a broken down vehicle.

[DeepHelmet]

I really don't have any posts here, so I apologize if I'm out of line, but here goes. Like stated above, I find it hard to believe that someone called in a burglary in progress at an occupied house and it took an hour for the police to get there. When calls like that come in to our department, we drop everything (yes even the doughnuts) and get there as fast as we can without killing ourselves or anyone else. If the bad guy has the bad sense to still be there, all the better.

As for Pat's finer points of "harrassing and fining", from what I remember, the oath I took was to uphold the laws of my city, state, and country. Fix your broken tail lights and change your own flat. Sorry, but some of us are a little too busy getting spit on, shot at, kicked, and yelled at to change your tire.

We (mostly) do the best we can to stop bad things from happening to good people. There's rarely enough money, manpower, or equipment available. Can you imagine the liability the City/State/County would incur if they vowed to protect all their citizens? People would sue the police department everytime they were victimized. Obviously, for the most part, I'm not referring to the likes of members of this or similar boards, as they don't tend to be victims.

Sorry for the off topic rant. As far as your Ex-GF goes, 44, don't let her drag you into her personal hell. There are large holes in her story. I'm not saying she's lying to you as I wasn't there and can't pass judgement. Just be careful.

[crofrog]

you can not like it all you want.

however the supreme court disagrees.

[pat86323]

no thats fine, i personally have no problem taking care of myself. I just think that if the police arent going to protect (which i think they do a pretty good job of for the most part) and SERVE (which i think is lacking) they shouldnt have it printed on the side of their car (which they do here) Im honestly not badmouthing leos here as i very rarely have any sort of run in with them and its always
leo "hey have you been drinking tonight"
me "no sir im the dd"
leo "have a good night and be safe sir"

i do however have a friend of mine's sister who recently had their car break down outside cell phone range with their 4 year old niece who was passed not once but twice by cars boasting "to protect and serve" on the side of the car. I really think its ridiculous to drive by seeing a teenage girl and a small child walking on the side of the road at 11 pm and not at least stop to see if things are ok.

[DeepHelmet]

I really think its ridiculous to drive by seeing a teenage girl and a small child walking on the side of the road at 11 pm and not at least stop to see if things are ok.

Agreed.

[Strings]

>I find it hard to believe that someone called in a burglary in progress at an occupied house and it took an hour for the police to get there. When calls like that come in to our department, we drop everything (yes even the doughnuts) and get there as fast as we can without killing ourselves or anyone else. If the bad guy has the bad sense to still be there, all the better.<

Major accident, opposite side of town. Easy enough to figure out. that said...

Something does NOT smell right. I can see random targeting if the lady is EXTREMELY hot, lives in a nice house (suggesting there may be nice things to steal), and obviously living alone (the combination might make for a VERY temting target for some lowlife). But it just doesn't sound right...

The again El44: was she a worthwhile girlfriend? Maybe worth starting things up with again? 'Cause it sounds like she wants to...

[Azrael256]

Call 338-4041 and ask for a copy of the report. You may not be able to get an actual copy of it just yet, but someone should be able to confirm that it does or does not exist. No report = no crime. I've dealt with the exact same situation before, and nobody in the PD had a clue what I was talking about.

This story has the same odor as the one I dealt with.

[bowfin]

pat86323,

I saw a Nebraska State Trooper changing a flat tire for an old farmer on Highway 30 a couple of months ago.

How is that for serving?

[pat86323]

im not saying that it doesnt happen, im sure that i can sit here all day hearing stories about "well i saw" but I perosnally believe that it probably happens 5-10 percent of the time. Ive actually been helped by a leo when i ran out of gas shortly after i got my liscense when i was 16 and i do appreciate it. I think that everyone has got away from the origional intent of my post. Since when was the safety of citezens not responsibility of the law enforcement agency who covers said jurisdiction.

[BullfrogKen]

pat, you are taking your ex's word as truth.

I think she's manipulating you.


I can't think of a single young male policeman who wouldn't have gone through a set of tires to get to her house hoping to be the white knight. I can think of a few married ones who would have done the same, too. Hell, there's probably even a policewoman or two who I could think of if hard pressed that would want to get involved.

Young female . . . home alone . . . at night . . . two assailants outside . . .

Hell, there'd be young studs STILL showing up an hour after the call cleared hoping to offer assistance.


You're letting her get you upset over a falsehood. She's got you hoodwinked.

[pat86323]

nope not me........

[BullfrogKen]

oops, pat, you were so animated I thought you started the thread.


My mistake.


But . . . the duty of the police is not to protect and serve. Its the obstensible purpose, and most people who don't face such an immediate need for their help are able to accept the illusion.

[crofrog]

probably happens 5-10 percent of the time.

Do you make up numbers for fun, or are you employed in that line or work?


Chris

[Heraclid]

She is a total nutjob. This is SO not an acceptable way to rekindle a relationship. I don't care if she is the hottest thing this side of the sun, stay far, far away. And I believe she is far too immature and unstable for a gun too. Sure, she has a right to keep and bear arms, but I damn sure wouldn't buy it for her.

[crofrog]

She is a total nutjob. This is SO not an acceptable way to rekindle a relationship. I don't care if she is the hottest thing this side of the sun, stay far, far away. And I believe she is far too immature and unstable for a gun too. Sure, she has a right to keep and bear arms, but I damn sure wouldn't buy it for her.

You know her personally?

[pat86323]

I neither make up numbers for fun or professionally i was simply stating that i have a feeling that things like that just dont happen often. The number was inserted to avoid the people asking me "how often do you think it happens" so instead i just get another question that i would rather have not answered. Like i said before i think everyone has lost track of my point. people kept saying that it isnt the leo's responsibilty to protect citezens. I will admit that even i got off of my point, and for that i appologise. And i will say that if it isnt the responsibilty of leo's to protect and serve, then i think that the whole system is in need of a revamping. I would much prefer it if my tax dollars went to pay law enforcement officials who worked to protect the public.

[crofrog]

It is their responsibility to protect and serve, but it's to protect and serve society not the individual -- so sayth the Supreme Court.

The little quip about you making up numbers. Gun people are horrible about this. The synonym of anecdote is not data.

[JGReed]

El44, did you speak to your sister's boyfriend? And if so did he actually see the thugs bolt? If so then I guess she's on the level. If not I have to agree with others that it sounds like she's manipulating you. The EXACT same thing has happened to me. Heh heh...just wish I could say I learned to walk away the first time.

[bowfin]

Hmmm, no updates.

Too bad, this had the makings of a good soap opera:p

ElVaquero44, please report in to your relationship advisory committee.;)

[el44vaquero]

Ok, sorry for the long period of no update. Turned out that some was true, but most was not. They picked a guy up that she identified as the man that tried to break into her house. I don't remember if I told you all, but shortly after this post, a man kicked in her front door and raped her early one morning. The ambulance and police came and picked her up. They said they didn't have any proof that it was him trying to break in her house that night, but after the rape they had the proof they needed. There were a lot of parts of the story that didn't add up. The DNA tests came back as inconclusive. They have some fingerprints and a few neighbors with statements saying they had seen him lurking around there the last few days, but thought he was a concrete guy who was working around there locally. He's being held on a $15,000 bond. As for her, she's had enough of Oklahoma and headed back to live with her mother in Kentucky. I agree with a lot of you on here in the way that if she came unglued like that, there is no way I'd want her to have a gun. All and all, it's over with now.

[cyanide]

She has made a report

the police have the note

she has a license to kill in my book.

[jondar]

Correct me if wrong, but didn't the original posting say that "she called her sister, told her to go to her room, put a couch ...... call police...... If there was another person in the house it would be two making a fraudulent complaint.???? Well looking at it again, not if the sister were not an eyewitness to the actual attempted breakin. Don't know, could go either way. I'm about 70/30 for believing the lady.

[v8fbird]

I remember the SCOTUS case that ruled the police do not have to help citizens, but I don't know the name. Does anyone?

I think one of those cases had to do with a guy trapped in a car, the police took like 45 minutes to get there, he died, his family sued, court said police don't have to show up.

Anyone have any cites?

[Raptor5191]

I do not remember the case name either, but I do know exactly what you are talking about. In fact, I was talking to my wife about this last night.

The only crime the police are obliged to investigate is child abuese.

[v8fbird]

Anyone know this(these) case(s)?


I think police are still obligated to investigate crimes, they just don't have to show up in any time frame or perform to any standard once they're there. They still may get fired by the department, but they can't be sued or tried for a crime. To refuse to investigate a crime would be extreme deriliction of duty.



I actually sort of like that decision, but dislike it for other reasons.

First, there is no legal precedent for suing someone because they were not able to save you.

Second, and perhaps most importantly, it makes people realize that they ultimately are responsible for themselves and their own defense, and that they cannot count on others for anything. It shows that government cannot protect you, no matter how many of your rights you are willing to give up in return. (Maybe this is just me hopefully dreaming, especially since about 3/4 of the American public is not functionally literate enough even to read and understand a Supreme Court case.)

Third, it makes people who want to take our guns but at the same time realize cops won't or can't always protect us look like idiots.




However, I'm sure it will eventually let some morons off the hook who were frequenting the local cheerleading practice while some poor schmuck bled and died.

And then there's the saying "with great power comes great responsibility." So I don't know why we as a society are required to give extraordinary power to people but then absolve them of responsibility.

[.45&TKD]

I went to the local pawn shop and bought her a Model 10

I would have the weapon legally transfered to her. You are risking civil liability if she uses it and you lent/gave it to her.

[cassandrasdaddy]

was the case your refering to the one in dc where 2 girls called 911 when house was broken into. the cops showed up walked around didn't knock and left.meanwhile the guys raped the girls all nite.
probably about 10 years ago they sued and lost. typical dc police response

[BullfrogKen]

"Dial 911 and Die"


This book has cases from all 50 states that show how the government and police are not obliged to protect an individual. It also points out how some states are better than others in this area.

That DC case you cite is covered.

[RustyShackelford]

I agree with parts of your post. I have respect for many sworn LEOs. Many of these men and women work hard and do the LE job the right way.

I posted a real documented incident from where I lived in the Pittsburgh PA area 6 yrs ago. In FEB/2000 a crazy guy shot up a few fast food places about 3 blocks from the borough's police station. The local PD had 34 sworn full time LEOs. The police did not get on scene of this active shooter for nearly 20min! :eek:

The police took a big PR hit for this screw up but they deserved it! :cuss:

A normal person could walk at a casual pace and go from the police office to the first crime scene in about 4/5min.

This is why many citizens carry concealed weapons!

PS: The police chief of this PD went on the Today show and talked a lot of BS. He was later convicted for stealing drug money, :uhoh:

Rusty S

[Sean85746]

I am a little confused...

From the way you wrote this, she called you or her sister before calling the police?????

I have a hard time wrapping my head around an hours response time to a break-in in progress of an occupied home.

[el44vaquero]

The S&W model 10 I decided wasn't a good thing to have in her hands. She wasn't thinking on her toes and only get into trouble with it. I decided to keep it, and actually sold it to a friend shortly after.

As far as the other question, she called my sister before she called the police.