Watercooler Commandos?

[nucstl1]

Is it me or do the SHTF scenarios get a little carried away at times? Every other thread somebody's talking about my "My AR can reach out to 500yds", or "My AK can do this....." or My ..yada yada yada". The closest I have ever been to combat is being caught in the crossfire between a couple of gangbangers,(battlefield was about 100ft) so I am not a seasoned combat vet. My observations/questions are more from a logical perspective and knowing how people react in real SHTF scenarios. When the folks on THR get into a heated debate about the effective range or weapons and what they will do with them in scenario 1,2, or 3, it usually feels like I am in the office Monday morning after a weekend of NFL play-offs. Maybe I am a little off here, but here are some of my observations/questions:

Combat: What is the typical engagement range? Do we really have situations in combat where we have sqauds, platoons, or companies engaging in protracted gun battles at 3-600yds without support? I know this varies on the specific situation. Air support? Armor? ARTY support or any form of indirect support? A friend who served in F-Town with the 3/4, Stated that when they took fire, they returned fire with Extreme Prejudice. He also said anything over a couple of blocks qualified for Armor, Air, or ARTY support....no questions. (It was took risky to give chase and moving through the rubble was dangerous). My uncle who served in Vietnam said he rarely saw the enemy, let alone at 500 yards, and most combat was quick bursts at short ranges. I am not personally an authority on gunfights, so feel free to unleash if have the facts.


SHTF: This is the real meat behind the thread title, because there are so many people talking about reaching out to 600yds in a SHTF situation. Seriously folks, I hope that when the SHTF happens the only weapon I need is my 590 with some birdshot. I have the AR, AK, FAL, M1A, and the Garand in the rifle battery, but I am pretty sure I would use none of them to reach out to 6,5,4,3, or even 200yds. Carrying any of the above would attrract a lot of attention, and engaging BGs (if you can even confirm they are BGs) at those ranges will only attract more attention to your location. In most cases 100yds is the red zone....50yds is the white zone. In my current location, if they are inside 50yds, they have crossed that line. If they they are beyond 100yds, they are no immediate threat. If I need to go from point A to point B during a SHTF situation, I will avoid contact at all cost, and try to attract as little attention as possible. Marching down the street with an M1A and 400rds, engaging unknowns at 400 yds, is not part of a realistic plan. I am sure I will get flamed on this one as well, but after reading through some of these posts, I would be scared to leave the house if any of you guys were in my neighborhood.

['Card]

In my opinion, people spend way too much time worrying about their SHTF equipment, and not nearly enough time worrying about their SHTF knowledge.

Firsthand knowledge of cleaning and cooking wild game, for example. Or taking a Wilderness First Aid or EMT course - would benefit a person much more than a new black rifle that's marginally better than the old one, and probably for less money.

[nucstl1]

Good call. My uncle is a naturalist/outdoorsman, and spent many camping trips with him and a teenager learning what you can or cannot survive on in the wilderness. Even basic boyscout knowledge will be more helpful than the latest tacticool gizamajiggy you can hook onto a AR.

[Wastemore]

I think Card has nailed it. Assuming there was a SHTF situation, consider the time spend defending yourself vs. the time spend staying alive with day-to-day living(hygene, food, shelter, etc) and focus accordingly.
Seems like everyone wants to be a warrior of some sort. You be the warrior and I'll be the guy behind the rock hiding so I'm not detected.. you die a hero by choice and I live to be a hero when I have no choice. The last thing I want to do in engage in *any* type of battle.

B-

[nucstl1]

Well, I was starting to think that I was a p***y, because my priorities for a SHTF situation were more focused on laying low and avoid making myself a target for anyone. Glad to hear that I'm not alone. I'm sure some of the commandos will respond shortly.

[pcf]

In my opinion, people spend way too much time worrying about their SHTF equipment, and not nearly enough time worrying about their SHTF knowledge.

Amen, and their SHTF physical abilities. "When the pressures on I'll be able to carry 140 pounds, 20 miles, every day, NO Problem. I know I can't walk up six flights of stairs, but when the pressures on I'll do fine."

It's the same whether it's the sbility to drive or shoot.....etc

Life always easier when someone else attracts all of the unwanted attention.;)

[Lou629]

Have you also noticed how some of these same keyboard commandos have thousands upon thousands of rounds stockpiled :what: for all those rifles and the proposed 600 yd. shootouts? They must not be very good shots at ranges like that, :neener: , huh? I thought it was supposed to be "one shot one kill"?? At any rate, I doubt most of these guys would live long enough to use even one-tenth of the ammo dump that some of them claim to have on hand in a real gunfight.

[RuralTurtle]

Yeah, I noticed a prerequisite for gun shop commandos is being totally out of shape. These guys get winded just talking. Sad, really.

Agreed on the thrust of the thread. Using your head will avoid 99% of life's problems.

[Coronach]

While I'm equally amused by the Keyboard, Watercooler and Gunstore species of the Commando genus, as well as their close cousin, Ninjitsu Malli, one does need to consider the possible motivations for ammo stockpiling.

One is your standard, garden variety SHTF preparedness, which can be taken to extremes.

Another is a fear of increased restrictions on ammo availability. Always a possibility, I will admit.

A third reason is the most rational, and economically sound, of all; it pays to buy bulk. Not only is it cheaper, but it allows one to ride out market fluctuations without concern. For instance, while everyone else has been bemoaning the soaring cost and limited availability of 7.62x39, I've been merrily feeding my SAR-1 and Vepr from the "stockpile" in my closet. I suspect that they'll continue to graze unconcernedly from this "stockpile" until the price comes down, whereupon the "stockpile" will again be replenished to the level of several thousand rounds.

I do, however, agree with the general point. Taking all of the money a Commando invests on guns and gun gear and investing it on food-getting/growing/making gear, food storing gear, building gear, medical gear and associated classes/training to use that gear (and, in some cases, a personal trainer) would put one in a much better position to survive whatever TEOTWAWKI scenario one could dream up.

One or two rifles, a decent amount of ammo and a lot of trigger time are all you really need to be decently prepared for a disaster, in the "personal weaponry" department. That still leaves a lot of potentially fatal areas uncovered. Knowing how to sew, however, just doesn't have the same sex appeal as being able to shoot an EBR.

Mike

PS OTOH, they might be money ahead. Think of the beergut as a Camelbak for calories. :cool:

[Ghost]

To answer your first question, there is no "typical engagement range" for combat; it depends on the battlefield and the terrain. For example: Iraq, relatively short ranges because of the urban terrain engagements were fought in. Afghanistan, relatively long ranges, because of the rural and mountainous terrain that engagements were fought in.

As far as for when the SHTF well, if it happens, when it happens, I'm leaving and going somewhere where the S isn't HTF and taking my loved ones with me.

I'm with 'Card and Coronach on the other things mentioned.

[Leif]

In my opinion, people spend way too much time worrying about their SHTF equipment,

Take the word equipment out, and you have my opinion, which is that a great many people worry far too much about the nightmarish catastrophes that might befall them, despite their great improbability, and far too little about the little things that all too easily will cause the SHTF on a realistic personal level.

For example, I smoke about a pack a day (and still manage to hike, though I'm starting to notice a certain shortness of breath). I'm trying to quit, but it isn't going all that well. Now, I know full well that if I don't quit, the probability of me facing a life-threatening, SHTF scenario in the form of a dread word beginning with a "c" is pretty high. It is foolhardy for me personally to take preparing for the end of the world seriously when I haven't even taken the measures to ensure my safety regarding a very realistic level of threat.

After this, I'll stop pontificating. nucstl1, you are correct in your assessment of those obsessed with the potential, maybe even hopefully anticipated, use of firearms in a tremendous SHTF event and their exaggerated sense of their weapons' and their own capabilities. A gun seems to become a talisman for these people, a force field behind which they magically become invincible and gain the respect and power in fantasy lives that eluded them in their real lives. For me, and I've given some basic, though not overwhelming thought to these issues, firearms should serve a role for the private individual that the so-called PDW is supposed to serve in a military context (at least as I understand it): a means of personal defense for those whose primary mission is not to engage the enemy directly or personally, but to successfully conduct some other mission. In my view, physical survival and personal safety are the missions, and marching on one's enemies as a lone gunman (or even as a small band) runs counter to that mission. When people talk about engaging those perceived to be hostile to their interests at ranges in excess of 100 yards, maybe even 50 yards, during an emergency situation, they seem for the most part to have moved beyond the realm of the purely defensive into that of the offensive, which by virtue of what offensive is and entails, is going to jeopardize the aforesaid mission, not to mention place them squarely within the boiling cauldron of criminal prosecution should the emergency prove to be not so catastrophic or enduring as initially was believed or anticipated (basically, if you're going to target somebody at 500 yards and claim it as defensive, you'd better hope that it really is the end of civil society in your part of the world for a very long time).

That's my humble opinion, and I'm sticking to it! :D

[MatthewVanitas]

For the vast majority of Americans, I'd argue that anything beyond a single centerfire pistol per adult pushes into the "hobby" category.


There's a certain morbid irony in stocking up an "arsenal", then keeling over from too many Big Macs amongst your survivalist buddies (none of whom know CPR).

I figure that one pistol and the skills to use it make me far better armed than 90% of Americans, and any other gun I have is for fun. In the meantime, this is a great reminder that I really need to brush up on all my First Aid skills, need to get my 3mi run back down to at least 21min, and need to check the gauge on the fire extinguisher I keep by the stove.

Oh, and I do know how to sew and braid. Got flack for it while on active duty... but then guess who folks came crying to with torn gear?

-MV

[Hardware]

What I love are the convoluted situations some folks construct for their SHTF scenarios. Here's a handy guide so you too can determine exactly when the SHTF.

When rounds are going downrange and other rounds are coming uprange, the S has HTF!

When there is an angry torch wielding or non-torch wielding mob outside your location, the S has HTF!

When Mother nature gets all medievel on you, the S has HTF!

Zombies, bears, ninjas, plagues, pestillence, terrorists, cats living with dogs, mass hysteria, jack booted thugs, the S has HTF!

Everybody clear?

[nucstl1]

Great Responses.....Thank You!

[pete f]

The guy who has fifty million rounds ready for the S to HTF but will not eat a squirrel, but thinks he has to kill a deer to get meat, who will not set a trap line for bunnies or cats to get something to eat when he is starving.

Keeps asking about ammo and elevation needed to get a hit at 600 yards and the longest shot he has ever taken is the one hundred yards at the gun range. Has no range tables or wind tables plotted for his scope sighted combat proven M1a, Does not have the number of clicks counted to find zero again with his scopes.

Has water stored but has no way of cleaning additional water when the time comes.

has never gutted a fish never mind a mammal. Has no secondary plans. no secondary means of transport. no bikes no 4 wheeler, no boat if applicable.

Has never built a fire in the rain.

so on so forth


Go buy a 1960's era boy scout manual. or a army field book. or any number of books on longterm camping.

[Double Naught Spy]

Right, just how many US folks, inside the US, have been killed by actual real terrorists since "terrorist" because such a hot topic word after 9/11. Heck, how many since the first WTC bombing?

For the average American in the US, genuine and realistic threats are the little things that have been threats for so long like burglars, robbers, rapists, drunk drivers, crackheads.

It is good to be prepared for the big event, but don't lose sight of the small ones that can kill you. In Vietnam, we sent fighters into combat without gatling guns because we were going for the bigger missile kills and gatling guns were old technology. Guess what? Old technology of machineguns was bringing down newer technology missile-laden US fighters. Lesson? Everything has its place. You need to prepare for what you are most likely to encounter with most of your resources with allocation going to less likely potentialities for the rest of your resources.

A guy in Kansas preparing for a SHTF hurricane makes about as much sense as those who prepare for other sorts of possible, but extremely unlikely SHTF terrorist events. Besides, how do you prepare for that which you cannot fight? How could the Iraqis in the first Gulf War fight the bombers that dropped bombs from so how, the Iraqis with no radar, that the first indication of the bombing came in the form of explosions? How could SHTF prepared, armed, and situationally aware workers in the WTC towers stop incoming jetliners?

That isn't to say that you can't prepare, only that preparation for such ambiguous and rare threats here in the US could encompass all of one's time, supposedly being ready for all potential SHTF possibilities, but basically becoming a dysfunctional member of American society who gives the impression of being a paranoid nut.

Do more to protect yourself from credible and chronic threats.

[ball3006]

is TO AVOID being in a situation where a firearm is needed..........When I am at home, the longest shot is 30 yards, out the front or back doors/windows. At camp, the longest shot is about 40 yards, heavy woods. I have hunted and fished all my life. My neighbor, at camp, has about 50 beeves in the pasture south of my place...........chris3

[White Horseradish]

In any sort of a disaster the biggest danger you can prepare for is panicked people and people that will use the chaos for personal advantage. Weapons-wise, a pistol should be enough for that.

However, I REALLY like rifles... :)

[riverdog]

Like Coronach, I buy ammo by the case when I see what I want and the price is right. So in some calibers I have a lot. Other calibers I may have just a case on hand and that case may be the last I'll ever buy of that caliber. OTOH, I'm always on the lookout for deals on .308, .223, and .45ACP; 9MM is all over at good prices.

Buy it before you need it.

[wheelgunslinger]

I'll second Matthew Vanitas' post. (scroll up to read it.:neener: )
I go to IDPA shoots and see lots of guys with sport specific weapons, lots of cool tactikewl gear, and big guts swinging below red faces. They get winded after one (yes 1) section of trotting through a house clearing or active shoot. Or, they're just in poor general health because they think their $2000 1911 custom gun is some button they'll push in case of emergency.

It's a package, this preparedness. Too many people don't get that.
I spend five days a week in the gymnauseum doing strength, flexibility, and cardio workouts instead of the same old mass building exercises I used to do in High School, in addition to steady state training (running, hiking) and practicing martial arts, archery and gun training. Not because I'm a kook, but because I was trained with the idea that sweat saves blood and if I want to lean on a skillset, I have to make sure I do my part to concrete it physically and mentally within me.
Sure, I look with some disregard on the guys who just have an inspector Clouseau wardrobe full of nunchuks and a car filled with McDonald's wrappers and coke bottles. But not near as much as I look at myself with disregard if I let myself go that way. The guys with the tactical beerguts can do what they want. I won't feel a thing when they get a handy beatdown because they're too out of breath 3 seconds into a H2H encounter or keel over in an emergency. It's their choice, and I've made mine.

[the naked prophet]

Something everyone is overlooking here is that in a SHTF situation you may not be on the defensive. You may need to take the fight to someone else before you run out of food or water. IE any situation in which someone comes to take away all your guns after SHTF but before the food runs out. Think about blue helmets. Something like Katrina (power, water, stores offline for some reason) but across the entire US - most people are doing fine but there's more criminal activity than usual, and you need your guns to protect your food/water/family. And you see somebody down the street storming into houses and coming out with more guns and fewer handcuffs than they went in with.

[Sgt Stevo]

I buy a lot of ammo and always run out. My THR friends burned 600 rounds of it a week ago sunday.

I try not to get to upset by people who have never been in the CZ, or LE for that matter.

I look for the similarities, rather then he differences. Sure I laugh at arm chair operators.

I have been out on the line. I did not like it much. Cold in the stans, hard to breath.

And hot in the box. At times me and my guys have fired a whole bunch of rounds. And not hit anything.

I also have been hurt and dont like that much either. I also dont like to think about it.

Deep down, I think the guys who I call posers are wishing they had what it takes to go and do the job.

But it much easier to talk about it.
As long as they dont lie to me. IE, I was in SWAT, SF or whatever, I take them with grain of salt.

[flatdog]

I'll know it really hit the fan, when my computer goes Tango Uniform in the middle of reading another SHTF thread. And I have to scramble to get my "BU'P" (back up 'puter), running Windows 3.1 to finish the thread. I shudder to think.

[RuralTurtle]

Some interesting posts indeed. I see the firearms component as just a small piece of the puzzle. Being physically, mentally, spiritually, financially, etc. prepared for life situations is IMHO the only healthy way to live. We're all human though, so it's always going to be a work in progress.

Wheelgunslinger, thanks for the interesting post. I'm in a transition from the "pound heavy weights; repeat" mode to a more holistic approach to fitness. Would be curious for any insights you have to share. I believe it was Patton who said "A pint of sweat will save a gallon of blood."

Good posts. This is an interesting forum. Take care.

[scooterthegreat]

I have to say a big thank you for the replies here. I have read many of the SHTF threads and been left scratching my head.

A couple of years ago, a good friend of mine asked me why I go fishing and hunting and grow my own garden. My first response was that I take a great deal of pride in being able to provide for myself. His respone was "No thanks. I don't like guns and bows and I'll get my food from the grocery store." My only reply to that was "Well, one day, when the world goes to heck, I guess I know which one of us will be eating and will have the means to procect themselves."

It's not something I think about on a daily basis, but I have to admit, it does cross my mind from time to time. But there is so much more to "being prepared" than having the proper firearm and a ton of ammo. I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who looks at things that way.

[Yakko]

One other reason to buy ammo in bulk - limited quantity available.

Take for example Danish 30.06 in 8 rnd clips. Accurate, made for garands.

I shoulda bought more!:banghead:

[agtman]

Along with the observations already made about "watercooler commandos," I'd add my personal beef: training, or lack of it.

These types, which (trust me) include not a few cops, never seem to do or get any training with their guns, beyond putting maybe 50-rds of ammo through their pistol/rifle once a month.

Even then it's all square range, stationary target shooting. OTOH, in the case of the average Joe Civilian maybe that's still better than never firing the weapon at all, leaving it in a drawer or zippered case somewhere.

Ask them if they've ever gone to any training schools to get up to fighting speed with their pistol or long gun and they look at you like: "You mean where I'd have to pay a lot of money to practice shooting?"

Hard to say if they're being cheap or just haven't given any serious thought to getting professional training in order to better understand what they really might have to do with a weapon in a real SHTF - besides hold it. :scrutiny:

Admittedly, the catastrophic SHTF scenarios typically visualized and discussed here (e.g., Katrina), the ones that displace people and neutralize any immediate LE aid to law-abiding citizens, are few and far between.

Unfortunately, however, once they get past their annual or bi-annual departmental qualifications, cops are some of the worst offenders at avoiding forward-looking thinking about their own survival in terms of seeking out a higher level of training - stuff that goes beyond the required minimum static range stuff. Not all cops, of course, but it's a larger percentage of the rank & file than makes me comfortable.

[Old NFO]

I glad to finally see one of these that does get off the gun(s)... They are, in my opinion, only a small part of the equation. Food and water and a means to get them are more important in the long term. Salt and sugar are probably two of the most sought after things when you are in the wild, as neither is easily acquired in a natural state. Agree with the earlier posts too about cooking, cleaning, eating wild game and other assorted items. I am also glad I've been through SERE and JEST (albiet many years ago), because I DID learn I can survive on things I wouldn't normally eat. Also, as suggested, a Boy Scout handbook or military survival manual is excellent, along with those small survival kits. I won't be relying on anything that requires battery power either- I firmly ascribe to the old military saying, a flashlight is a device to carry dead batteries...:cuss: :cuss: Oh yeah, I'm going to be as low profile as I can too!!! let them pick on the strutters, movers and shakers:evil:

[JE223]

Leif, gotta hand it to you, you really made me think with your post.

I may have qualified as a 'survival nut' in my younger days, but now I look back and realize the general wastefulness (in terms of time, money and stress) of that exercise. There appears to be a 'zero sum' rule in effect with balancing survival preparedness with real life. The more time/worry spent planning for survival, the more your normal interactions are effected by a sense of fatalism (IE, 'why should I move into this house, it wouldn't be optimum in a SHTF scenario', even though the house otherwise works well for you/family.)

It is good to be prepared, but one of the great benefits to being a civilian is that we do not normally have to be that good with guns or camping, etc. to make it through the day, like combat arms people must be. Their profession is fighting, ours is usually something more civilian-like. In any case, the person who makes the annual trip out to the range and is defending something they care about has something that the majority of criminals don't - the will and sufficient skill.

Great thread.

[BullfrogKen]

It is the rare individual, in any profession, that seeks out training and skill development outside the minimum standard required for the job.

How frequently do you see a mason paying out of his pocket to go away for a weekend to learn how to lay a better hearth? Or an engineer go to a seminar on his own dime?


It is rare, and the mark of a professional, to see it done.

[sm]

Post #2 I really appreciate, thank you.

Interesting tidbit I will share.

Too many years ago I picked up another $20 single shot .22 rifle from a Pawn Shop that set these back and would call me.

I take it apart to clean it up and lube as usual, and the hard buttplate has regular screw heads, I remove the buttplate, and see first a piece of cord, then something in the hole of buttstock.

Slowly I remove, and inside were rolled inside Wax Paper sandwich bags - a small single blade pen knife, some kitchen matches dipped in wax, some braided fishing line, small hooks and sinkers, small bit of #2 pencil, and "dots and dashes" [Morse code] and 5 spare .22 ctgs.

I had to grin, someone back when must have been a Boy Scout, and remembered: Be Prepared. :)

This gun went to a little girl, I made a point of sharing this with her, her Aunt and Uncle whom she was being raised by. This all went back inside, updated of course. Uncle made a point of getting her a SAK with a screwdriver.

Aunt and Uncle "updated" their single shot rifles too...including regular screws instead of the Phillip heads.

One just had to grin shooting these guns, knowing what was inside the buttstocks. :)

[Korimyr the Rat]

The guy who has fifty million rounds ready for the S to HTF but will not eat a squirrel... has never gutted a fish never mind a mammal. Has no secondary plans. no secondary means of transport. no bikes no 4 wheeler, no boat if applicable. Has never built a fire in the rain.

Hey, don't mock guys like that. They're a vital part of my survival plan.

[45s save lives]

This post has to be one of he best ive ever read! Lots of good info here! Most of the opinions mirror my own so I wont repeat them. Especially about people not worrying about all of the small things that lead to big things, and avoiding trouble being the best way to stay out of it, and preparedness being a total package. Thanks guys.

[Coronach]

The guy who has fifty million rounds ready for the S to HTF but will not eat a squirrel... has never gutted a fish never mind a mammal. Has no secondary plans. no secondary means of transport. no bikes no 4 wheeler, no boat if applicable. Has never built a fire in the rain.Hey, don't mock guys like that. They're a vital part of my survival plan.Ok. THAT was good for a laugh. :D

Mike

[Mannlicher]

hey guys, its all good, ok?
There is nothing wrong with discussing things that might happen. This is not a job here, or a classroom. It's 'recess', kick back and enjoy it.

[Art Eatman]

The implicit romanticism of "I'm gonna go out and live off the land!" is amusing to me. Just curious: Where? For how long? How much experience have you already had in finding the edible veggies, leaves, roots, etc.? How ya gonna deal with a gazillion others with the same idea?

I think of the giant thrash that was Houston evacuating for Hurricane Rita. Er, uh, if everybody else is running from the SHTF, how ya gonna get where ya wanna be? And your parents, wife, kids?

There's nothing really unknown about disaster prep in hurricane, tornado or earthquake areas. That's cut and dried but for mental attitude.

For those worried about major collapse, leave now. Tomorrow is too late. :)

Art

[50 Freak]

I'm not going to stockpile food or water. If SHTF, I'm going down the block to my tree hugging anti-gun DiFi loving neighbor and take all his food and water.:evil: :evil:

Screw living off the land. Easier to live off the mass numbers of fools that think the police are bound to help them and that punching 9-1-1 into a phone is an acceptable form of self defense.

I'm locking up my house, climbing up on the roof with my FAL, some brewskis and a lawnchair. This will be better than watching American Idol.:neener: :neener:

P.S. eatting squirrel sucks. Making your neighbor eat squirrel while you eat his "re-appropriated" Filet Mignon....Now you're talking.

[Jeff White]

With that last comment this one is closed. I'll have to start banning the next person who advocates illegal acts. 50 Freak, consider yourself warned.

Jeff