What is a 308 fal


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bbutler
May 16, 2006, 07:09 PM
I keep hearing everyone talk about fal rifles,.What are they and where do you get one?

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The Real Hawkeye
May 16, 2006, 07:13 PM
They are military rifles originally manufactured by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium. They are one of the finest such rifles in 7.62 NATO ever designed. They are available in forms such as the STG-58. Just punch that into a search engine and enjoy the ride.

Here's where you can get one. http://www.dsarms.com/

DMK
May 16, 2006, 07:17 PM
They are something like a cross between an M14 and an AK47. (well, not really) :)

www.falfiles.com <--- Home of the FAL

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/myarms/GreenFAL2.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/~davidkoch/myarms/FALnMossy.jpg

Thefabulousfink
May 16, 2006, 07:29 PM
[Obi-Wan]An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.[/Obi-Wan]

...Or at least the '50s, '60s, and '70s (and '80s in some parts). It has been called "The right arm of the free world." It was carried by almost every NATO or allied contry at one time or another. The Inch verson was carried by the UK and the Commonwealth (sp?) Nations. It was handed out to many African and South American forces durring the many proxy wars of the Cold War. It is slightly less iconic than the AK47, but just as widely distributed around the globe.

P.S. It is also said to rival the AK in reliability and accuracy.;)

Coronach
May 16, 2006, 08:14 PM
P.S. It is also said to rival the AK in reliability and accuracy. ;)Ooooh. He's picking a fight! :D

Reliability? Yeah, pretty close.

Accuracy? Got the AK beat by a long shot. ;)

Now, where does the AK have the FAL beat? Weight, rapidity of handling, raw economics (they're dirt cheap).

To answer the original question, the FAL was the rifle that the rest of the world was using when we were using the M14 or M16 and the Soviets and their puppets were using the AK-47. Yes, that's an oversimplification, but hey. FALs (Fusil Automatic Leger, or "light automatic rifle") shoot a full-power rifle round (7.62 NATO, AKA .308 Winchester), and are big, heavy, rugged, reliable weapons. They are combat accurate (read: accurate enough). Originally, they were designed to be full-auto, but most nations disabled the FA capability due to the difficulty of accurately employing a full-auto shoulder-fired weapon (the M14 had the same problem: light gun + full-power round + full auto = good way to waste ammo to no good end). They're perfectly good weapons in semi-auto mode.

They get the job done.

Mike :cool:

50 Freak
May 16, 2006, 08:30 PM
90 Something countries can't be all wrong.

Great guns, simple to operate, rugged enough for the battlefield, uses a "real" round (not something meant to shoot groundhogs) and aestetically pleasing.

Gosh I love FALs.

Here's mine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/FAL007.jpg

kfranz
May 16, 2006, 09:45 PM
Judging from the pictures in the news media, Africa is still a good place to get one... :uhoh:

mmike87
May 16, 2006, 09:53 PM
Judging from the pictures in the news media, Africa is still a good place to get one...

Perhaps - but I'll take mine from DSA. :D

SaxonPig
May 16, 2006, 10:42 PM
I love my FAL. I bought it in 1986 after my H&K 91 was stolen and found it a bit more elegant and ergonomic that the HK. Mine was brought home by a returning soldier who had purchased it while stationed in Germany so it has no import marks. Then in 2003 (yup, 17 years later) the cops called and said they had recovered the stolen HK. I kept both.

AndyC
May 16, 2006, 11:01 PM
From dsarms.com:


Standard FAL:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/267/sa58std2rp.gif


Para FAL:
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/7872/sa58stdpara4tr.gif

Edit: I just bought a FAL kit from GunPartsGuy last night via falfiles.com - gonna be fun putting this together :D

Limeyfellow
May 17, 2006, 12:32 AM
They really are a joy to be loved by all.

One day I would like to see some of the early British prototype fals in 7mm/.280, compact and low recoil that would have made an awesome firearm.

chaingunner
May 17, 2006, 12:56 AM
anybody know if FALs are legal in CA? I'm talking about semiauto only FALs, not the models with selector switches..

50 Freak
May 17, 2006, 01:16 AM
not the models with selector switches..

No offense, but do you even know what you are talking about???

And yes, FALs (in a fixed mag, stripper clip top cover configuration or Pistol Grip-less) are legal to own in CA.

Many CA residents own them. DSA and Enterprise will happily sell you their CA compliant FALs for double the markup of a regular FAL.:fire:

N3rday
May 17, 2006, 02:17 AM
One cool thing to note about the FALs is the adjustable gas system...lets you set how much gas gets through to cycle the action.

Want proof of the FALs reliability?
Old Dirty! An experiment on Falfiles.com (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=68486)

thatguy
May 17, 2006, 09:13 AM
chaingunner, Is any gun still legal in CA? The only military style semi-auto rifles not specifically banned by the AWB of 1989 were the M1 Carbine and the M1A1. I do not know why these two were excluded but the FAL was specifically listed. And of course all of the magazines over 10 round capacity were banned.

My heart goes out to those trapped in CA. Not a good place if you believe the Second Amendment actually means something.

Bwana John
May 17, 2006, 09:58 AM
What is a 308 fal
I would say that that is a FAL with tight headspace.

hso
May 17, 2006, 10:09 AM
Where do you get one? Build it yourself, have a "FAL mechanic" build it for you or pay for one off the shelf.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as24f-e.htm http://remtek.com/arms/fn/fal/ http://falfiles.com
http://world.guns.ru/assault/fal_280br.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/fal_stg58.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/fal_l1a1_suit.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/fal_c2.jpg
Caliber : 7,62mm NATO (7.62x51)
Action: Gas operated, tilting breechblock, select-fire or semi-auto only
Length: 1100 mm (990 / 736 mm for "Para" model)
Barrel length: 533 mm (431 mm for "Para" model)
Weight: 4.45 kg empty (3.77 kg empty for "Para" models)
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds (30 rounds for heavy barreled SAW versions)
Rate of fire: 650-700 rounds per minute

The FN FAL (Fusil Automatique Leger - Light Automatic Rifle) is one of the most famous and widespread military rifle designs of the XX century. Developed by the Belgian Fabrique Nationale company, it was used by some 70 or even more countries, and was manufactured in at least 10 countries. At the present time the service days of the most FAL rifles are gone, but it is still used in some parts of the world. The history of the FAL began circa 1946, when FN began to develop a new assault rifle, chambered for German 7.92x33mm Kurz intermediate cartridge. The design team was lead by Dieudonne Saive, who at the same time worked at the battle rifle, chambered for "old time" full-power rifle cartridges, which latter became the SAFN-49. It is not thus surprising that both rifles are mechanically quite similar. In the late 1940s Belgians joined the Britain and selected a British .280 (7x43mm) intermediate cartridge for further development. In 1950 both Belgian FAL prototype and British EM-2 bullpup assault rifles were tested by US Army. The FAL prototype greatly impressed the Americans, but the idea of the intermediate cartridge was at that moment incomprehensible for them, and USA insisted on adoption of their full-power T65 cartridge as a NATO standard in 1953-1954. Preparing for this adoption, FN redesigned their rifle for the newest T65 / 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition, and first 7.62mm FALs were ready in 1953. Belgium was not the the first country to adopt their own rifle in 1956. Probably the first one was a Canada, adopting their slightly modified version of FAL as C1 in 1955. Canadians set to produce C1 and heavy barreled C2 squad automatic rifles at their own Canadian Arsenal factory. Britain followed the suit and adopted the FAL in 1957 as an L1A1 SLR (Self-loading rifle), often issued with 4X SUIT optical scopes. Britain also produced their own rifles at the RSAF Enfield and BSA factories. Austria adopted the FAL in 1958 as a Stg.58 and manufactured their rifles at Steyr arms factory. Various versions of FAL were also adopted by the Brazil, Turkey, Australia, Israel, South Africa, West Germany and many other countries. The success of the FAL could be even greater if Belgians would sell the license to W.Germany, which really liked to produce the FAL as a G1 rifle, but Belgians rejected the request. Germany purchased the license for Spanish CETME rifle and as a result of this H&K G3 rifle became probably the most notable rival to FAL.

During the time, FAL was built in numerous versions, with different furniture, sights, barrel lengths etc. There are, however, four basic configurations of FAL rifle: FAL 50.00, or simply FAL, with fixed buttstock and standard barrel; FAL 50.63 or FAL "Para", with folding skeleton butt and short barrel; FAL 50.64 with folding skeleton butt of "Para" model and standard length barrel; and the FAL 50.41, also known as FAL Hbar or FALO - a heavy barreled model which was intended primary as a light support weapon. There are also two major patterns of FALs around the globe: "metric" and "inch" FALs. As the names implied, these were built in countries with metric or imperial (inch) measure systems. These patterns are slightly different in some dimensions, and magazines of metric and inch pattern sometimes could not be interchanged. Most "inch" pattern FALs were made in British Commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia) and have had folding cocking handles and were mostly limited to semi-automatic fire only (except for Hbar versions like C2). Most "metric" pattern rifles had non-folding cocking handles and may or may not have select-fire capability, but as with other light select-fire weapons chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO round, the controllability of the full auto fire is disappointing and shots spread in burst is extremely wide. But, regardless of this, the FAL is one of the best so known "battle rifles", reliable, comfortable and accurate. It is somewhat sensitive to fine sand and dust but otherwise is a great weapon.

The only countries still producing the FAL rifles until the present time are the Brazil and, most surprisingly, the USA. Brazil adopted the FAL under the name LAR and manufactured it at the IMBEL facilities. The USA produced a small amount of FALs as the T-48 at H&R factory in early 1950s for Army trials, but at the present time a number of private US Companies is manufacturing various versions of FAL rifles using either surplus parts kits or newly manufactured parts. Most of these rifles are limited to semi-auto only and are available for civilian users. Probably most notable US manufacturer of FAL modifications is the DS Arms company, which produced its rifles under the name of DSA-58.

The FN FAL is a gas operated, selective fire or semi-automatic only, magazine fed rifle. It uses short piston stroke gas system with gas piston located above the barrel and having its own return spring. After the shot is fired, the gas piston makes a quick tap to the bolt carrier and then returns back, and the rest of the reloading cycle is commenced by the inertia of bolt group. The gas system is fitted with gas regulator so it could be easily adjusted for various environment conditions, or cut off completely so rifle grenades could be safely launched from the barrel. The locking system uses bolt carrier with separate bolt that locks the barrel by tipping its rear part into the recess in the receiver floor. The receivers initially were machined from the forged steel blocks, and in 1973 FN began to manufacture investment cast receivers to decrease production costs. Many manufactures, however, stuck to the machined receivers. The trigger housing with pistol grip is hinged to the receiver behind the magazine well and could be swung down to open action for maintenance and disassembly. The recoil spring is housed in the butt of the rifle in fixed butt configurations or in the receiver cover in folding butt configurations, so the folding butt versions require a slightly different bolt carrier, receiver cover and a recoils spring. The cocking handle is located at the left side of the receiver and does not move when gun is fired. It could be folding or non-folding, depending on the country of origin. The safety - fire selector switch is located at the trigger housing, above the triggerguard. It can have two (on semi-automatic) or three (on select-fire rifles) positions. The firing mechanism is hammer fired and use single sear for both semi-automatic or full automatic fire. Barrel is equipped with long flash hider which also serves as a rifle grenade launcher. Design of flash hider may differs slightly from country to country. The furniture of the FAL also can differ - it could be made from wood, plastic of various colors or metal (folding buttstocks, metallic handguards on some models). Some models, such as Austrian Stg.58 or Brazilian LAR were fitted with light bipods as a standard. Almost all heavy barrel versions also were fitted with bipods of various design. Sights usually are of hooded post front and adjustable diopter rear types, but can differ in details and markings. Almost all FAL rifles are equipped with sling swivels and most of rifles are fitted with bayonet lugs.

LeadPumper
May 17, 2006, 10:09 AM
Military rifles shot 7.62 X 51, so some still exist that should only use that round... which is not the same as .308.

Most modern FAL's have chambers that can handle either 7.62 X 51 or .308, but check the manufacture specs to be sure. Also check the http://www.falfiles.com for more information.

recent pic of my DSA STG58A:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/jgelner/Other/DSASTG58A_2.jpg

-LeadPumper

mp510
May 17, 2006, 10:11 AM
I do not know why these two were excluded but the FAL was specifically listed



http://www.dsarms.com/catalog-list.cfm?Category=01&Subcat=SA58%20California%20Models&storeid=1

50 Freak
May 17, 2006, 02:46 PM
chaingunner, Is any gun still legal in CA? The only military style semi-auto rifles not specifically banned by the AWB of 1989 were the M1 Carbine and the M1A1. I do not know why these two were excluded but the FAL was specifically listed. And of course all of the magazines over 10 round capacity were banned.

True, the FN FAL was listed. And those we can't buy anymore. Now a DS Arms FAL or a FAL built on an Imbel or other receivers were not listed and hence still legal to buy, build, sell & trade in CA. Provided it does not violate the AW features ban.

MTMilitiaman
May 17, 2006, 03:05 PM
Where did you get the handguards on the FAL?

Usually the Belgian, Austrian, or free float types are all you see. That one is interesting.

High Planes Drifter
May 17, 2006, 04:34 PM
Incorporating a suitcase handle into the frame of the gun, placing the op-rod on top of the barrel, and that big cheap plastic buttstock make it one of the uggliest shoulder fired weapons ever devised by a human. Not pleasing to the eyes and hands like the more refined M1A. Reliable? It was replaced by the SA80. Come on. That Has to say something.

(leaves thread to avoid certain fallout of above comment:neener: )

The Real Hawkeye
May 17, 2006, 04:55 PM
I've always liked the looks of the FAL.

Foxtrot427
May 17, 2006, 05:10 PM
50 Freak, wow that looks good! what stock is that and how long is your bbl?

roscoe
May 17, 2006, 05:18 PM
The only military style semi-auto rifles not specifically banned by the AWB of 1989 were the M1 Carbine and the M1A1.
Do a search on CA-legal assault rifles here at THR - there are plenty of rifles to pick from in CA.

MTMilitiaman
May 17, 2006, 06:06 PM
Incorporating a suitcase handle into the frame of the gun, placing the op-rod on top of the barrel, and that big cheap plastic buttstock make it one of the uggliest shoulder fired weapons ever devised by a human. Not pleasing to the eyes and hands like the more refined M1A. Reliable? It was replaced by the SA80. Come on. That Has to say something.

(leaves thread to avoid certain fallout of above comment )

Umm, your precious M14 was replaced in an even shorter time period by the M16, the first of which were at least the POS the first SA80s were, if not more so.

And most op-rods are on top of the barrel. It puts the barrel lower and more in line with the shoulder so recoil goes straight back instead of up.

50 Freak
May 17, 2006, 06:07 PM
Foxtrot...

DSA para lower/stock setup (very lightweight)
Barrel is 16.25 + 1.25 lightweight Enterprise muzzle brake.

Entire rifle weigh in about 7.5 to 8 pounds.

Also has a quick change barrel so I can convert it from a 16 inch 308 lightweight carbine to a 21 inch HB 308 "sniper platform" to a 16 inch 9mm Sten/FAL.

here is a pic of it in it's 9mm form.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/FALSten.jpg

kfranz
May 17, 2006, 07:03 PM
Also has a quick change barrel so I can convert it from a 16 inch 308 lightweight carbine to a 21 inch HB 308 "sniper platform" to a 16 inch 9mm Sten/FAL.

Meeper does some pretty cool work, doesn't he...:)

The Real Hawkeye
May 17, 2006, 07:08 PM
That's an awesome Sten/FAL. I assume the mag is the only Sten part?

iamkris
May 17, 2006, 09:23 PM
Incorporating a suitcase handle into the frame of the gun, placing the op-rod on top of the barrel, and that big cheap plastic buttstock make it one of the uggliest shoulder fired weapons ever devised by a human. Not pleasing to the eyes and hands like the more refined M1A. Reliable? It was replaced by the SA80. Come on. That Has to say something.


That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard (and nearly the poorest spelling and grammar). Obviously from one who has never experienced FAL joy. Probably ignored as a child and now seeks attention.:barf: :)

50 Freak
May 18, 2006, 03:49 AM
That's an awesome Sten/FAL. I assume the mag is the only Sten part?

Pretty much the mag is the only "sten part". Currently it sports a 14.5 9mm barrel with a 1.5 muzzle brake. Modified FAL bolt carrier and bolt and of course the mag adapter.

I've been thinking of having Meeper create me a 499 LW or 458 Socom FAL. :evil: :evil:

Coronach
May 18, 2006, 06:02 AM
Reliable? It was replaced by the SA80. Come on. That Has to say something.Yup. It says that in times of peace, with little pressure to choose good weaponry, procurement specialists (sic) the world over will make some pretty bone-headed decisions. ;)

Mike

High Planes Drifter
May 18, 2006, 08:23 AM
That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard (and nearly the poorest spelling and grammar). Obviously from one who has never experienced FAL joy. Probably ignored as a child and now seeks attention.
--------------------------------------------

You gather all of this from a comment(with humorous intent) about a rifle?:confused:
I think one of us DOES have issues.

LeadPumper
May 18, 2006, 09:06 AM
MTMilitiaman - Where did you get the handguards on the FAL?

Those are DSA Freefloats http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=US21FFSC&storeid=1&image=falff.gif

Some dremel to fit and a Versa-pod bipod gives me repeatable 4" groups at 100 yrds with iron sights. (no more vertical stringing, yay!). I also installed a VOW PARA rear windage adjustable sight and turned down the front sight by about half using a cordless drill and a file.

'nother pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/jgelner/Other/DSASTG58A_1.jpg

It's not a light-weight carbine by any stretch, it's long and heavy. But I can shoot all afternoon without any appreciable change in POI or pain in the shoulder.

It's also no tack driver, but with decent milsurp (it prefers Aussie or Port) it can keep a 4" group at 100 yrds if I can. With the stock forend, when the barrel heated up, the groups would enlarge to about 6" X 8" in a vertical oval pattern.

I may have to pick up a PARA FAL one of these days for something more 'portable'...

-LeadPumper

MTMilitiaman
May 18, 2006, 02:08 PM
I wonder if 4 MOA is typical of FALs, cause I can do 4 MOA with my Rommie AK?

50 Freak
May 18, 2006, 02:18 PM
No, 4MOA is not typical.

I usually can get 1-2.5MOA with a standard barrel and a 8 power scope.

Carl N. Brown
May 18, 2006, 02:39 PM
It was replaced by the SA80
A giant leap backwards in the opinion of many.

Foxtrot427
May 18, 2006, 03:02 PM
Very nice, 50 freak! I like the handguard too. Just looks perfect!

LeadPumper
May 18, 2006, 04:13 PM
MTMilitiaman - I wonder if 4 MOA is typical of FALs, cause I can do 4 MOA with my Rommie AK?

Depends, my FAL is the STG variant using a milsurp barrel and new DSA receiver shooting milsurp ammo with iron sights.

When I put a decent low power scope on the ARMS mount and used decent .308 ammo, my groups were maybe 2 -2.5" at 100 yrds.

But if I wanted pure accuracy, I'd just grabbed my Savage 10FP...

YMMV:evil:

-LeadPumper

Coronach
May 18, 2006, 05:10 PM
4MOA is loose, from my (admittedly limited) experience. My STG-58 from DSA is sub 3MOA. However, there are a couple of things that can influence this:

1. Inherent mechanical accuracy of the gun. Unless you're really carefully resting the gun and being very very diligent with your shooting, you're measuring this along with shooter induced error (which is influenced heavily by #2 below).

2. less-than-ideal sights. The FAL's weakness is its iron sights. They're better than the AK's, but they're sure not superb. There are, however, options for improving them. I know one guy whose gun magically improved from a "5MOA POS" to a 3 MOA gun with the simple addition of a scope. :rolleyes:

3. Ammo. Try a few batches of different ammo, and pick the one it likes. Mine likes Hirtenburger (of course. It could not like CAVIM- that would be too easy.).

Most of the FALs I've seen have been about 2-3 MOA guns. That's certainly good enough for combat use, and in general better than most AKs. You can tweak them to make them shoot tighter, but you'd have a hard time making one into a match gun. That's just not what they're built to do. But you should be able to get better than 4MOA.

Mike

The Real Hawkeye
May 18, 2006, 06:24 PM
Believe it or not, guys, with iron sights from a steady bench using match ammo, my FAL (STG-58 on an Imbel receiver) makes groups from 1.5-2 inches all day long at 100 yards, using match ammo. I didn't realize that mine was unusual. I guess it is, by what I'm hearing. I think the fact that it has no flash suppressor on it helps.

goon
May 18, 2006, 07:54 PM
Mine will do about 3" at 100 yards with Portugese or South African surplus. I can't say for other ammo types because those are the ones I shoot the most. It pops clay pigeons without any difficulty so I figure it is accurate enough for what I want it for.
I don't know if it is actually more accurate than the AK's I have owned but I do know that I can shoot it a whole lot better.

biere
May 18, 2006, 07:56 PM
The fal is a 308 rifle that has cheap 20 round mags available. Like the ak you can install a folding stock on it and it seems easier to find a folding fal than a folding m1a for a decent price.

I believe there are options for improving the iron sites, I plan to just mount a 308 acog on mine simply because I want to do that for a while.

To truly enjoy someone seeing how reliable a fal is run a search about "ol dirty" and it most likely can be found here but it originated at fal files.

AndyC
May 18, 2006, 08:29 PM
"The Tale of Ol' Dirty - A Texas Legend" (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68486) :D

DMK
May 18, 2006, 08:58 PM
I wonder if 4 MOA is typical of FALs, cause I can do 4 MOA with my Rommie AK?Yea, but can your Rommie AK do it with 20 rounds of 7.62x51, a real battle rifle round?
:evil:

bbutler
May 18, 2006, 10:54 PM
Quote" Yeah but can your ak do it with 20 rounds of 7.62x51 ammo a real battle rifle round" Now that was funny:D :D

Diomed
May 19, 2006, 12:23 AM
Does anyone in the US have L1A1s for sale? Or were they somehow banned (despite being semiauto-only)? Seems like very few people have them, so I was kind of wondering.

hso
May 19, 2006, 12:30 AM
HPD,

When you make funny comments about "other people's children" you need to be certain everyone knows you're joking first. I wasn't sure until I reread it and realized you were so over the top you had to be making a joke (and I'm fairly tolerant of noobs).

Now everyone play nice, HPD didn't mean anything mean by it.:rolleyes:

Owner of frankenfal, Rhodie, Izzy and Meeper 5.56 para fal

kfranz
May 19, 2006, 09:09 AM
Does anyone in the US have L1A1s for sale? Or were they somehow banned (despite being semiauto-only)? Seems like very few people have them, so I was kind of wondering.

Real deal Commonwealth pattern guns were sear cut, so they are NOT semi-auto only. There are plenty of clones around, just not as many as the metric pattern. Had the Aussies not destroyed 25,000 of them not too long ago, they'd be that much more common... :(

hso
May 19, 2006, 09:49 AM
You can buy one of the L1A1 "kits" and an inch reciever and have one built.

There was an inch Aussie kit on falfiles (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169967) for $300 a few days ago.

While it's not a ture inch pattern gun I like the fact that my L1A1 kit with metric lower takes the cheaper metric mags.

http://www.interordnance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=INTERORDNANCE.com&Product_Code=FALI0001-RAN

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