Good 9MM carbine?


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MR.G
May 17, 2006, 05:07 PM
I want to buy a good, reliable, 9mm carbine for defense and plinking. I have considered the Kel-Tec because it takes the S&W model 59 magazines, which I have a lot of. I have not looked at any others yet, and would like some recomendations. Thanks.

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BillinNH
May 17, 2006, 05:15 PM
Go for the Kel-Tec. I also have a sub2k in S&W59 format and it has worked well for me for a couple years. Very accurate. It is well suited to your purposes and you won't regret it.

If you want to save some money, get a Hi-Point 995 carbine which is almost as good as the KT but has only its own, low capacity magazines.

Go for the Kel-Tec.

Bill

R.W.Dale
May 17, 2006, 05:47 PM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong But I don't believe you can mount a scope/reddot on the Kel-tec as you can with the hi-point. Something you may want to consider.

sabre452
May 17, 2006, 06:16 PM
I have had good success with the Ruger PC9. Cheap, reliable, Standard Capacity Ruger magazines and Ghost Ring sites. What's not to like other than Ruger's old politics?

BillinNH
May 17, 2006, 06:30 PM
<Somebody correct me if I'm wrong But I don't believe you can mount a scope/reddot on the Kel-tec as you can with the hi-point. Something you may want to consider.>

KT sells a folding scope mount which holds one inch scope tubes. I understand it is a bear to get it properly installed and that it can lose zero sometimes when you fold/unfold it. But if you set it up and don't keep folding/unfolding it, it works fine. Since I have another scoped 9mm carbine I leave the KT unscoped and just use the peep site.

Hipoint allows you to use scope, peep/ghost sight or both. But it doesn't fold like the KelTec does. I use the open sights on my Hipoint and a simple 3-9x32 scope on my Camp Carbine.

Bill

444
May 17, 2006, 06:49 PM
I have owned three in the past: Ruger PC9, Hi-Point, and AR15.
The AR15 is head and shoulders above the other three. It has become one of my faviorite guns. Mine is a factory Colt, which is undoubtably the most expensive route to go (not nessessary). Just like any other AR15, it gives you all kinds of options. Want a new trigger ? There are dozens out there to choose from. Optics ? Mount right on the flat top. Iron Sights ? many to choose from. Switch back and forth ? No problem. What if I want to mount a conventional rifle scope, or an Aimpoint, or a Holosight, or an Eotech ? takes only a second. What if I want all of them and switch out with every shot I fire: can do and it's easy and painless. Want to mount a light or night vision ? Easy. Different upper ? switch out in seconds.
I have mine registered as a short barreled rifle and have an 11.5" barreled upper for it as well as an integrally suppressed upper from LRM.

I know what you are going to say already: I am not going to do any of that stuff. I would rather spend half the money and severely limit myself because I only thought in the short term: :uhoh: Two years from now, or five years from now, you might change your mind or you might have different circumstances. However, the decision you make today might seriously limit what you can do tomorrow. I prefer to keep my options open and buy stuff that is versitile and able to change with my desires.

I shot my Hi-Point yesterday for the first time in years. It is OK for the money. I don't have anything bad to say about it. But it isn't in the same league with the AR15.

grimjaw
May 17, 2006, 07:02 PM
I've been happy with the Ruger PC9. I have a Weigand weaver scope rail and a Millett red dot combo that works well with that rifle. Makes tidy groups out to 50 yards, which is probably the maximum effective range I'd feel comfortable using that cartridge. It's rugged, built to withstand even +P+ according to Ruger. It's cycled everything I've fed it so far. Magazines are readily available, don't cost an arm and a leg, and will swap with the Ruger P-series pistols. The trigger is a little heavy and it's not as easy to clean as some rifles. It's not the shortest carbine you'll find, but it's one of my shortest rifles. I'll keep mine with no complaints.

jmm

browningguy
May 17, 2006, 09:54 PM
I have a Kel-Tec with the Glock 17 mag well and love it. With the so-so factory sights it's still good for 2" groups or so at 50 yards, good enough for its intended purpose. I've got the lower rail on mine with a surefire light and it works very well. If you mounted the combo laser/light it would be even better.

While I have an AR with 6x45 and 50 Beowulf uppers I don't consider getting a 9mm upper to be a reasonable deal. You can buy a couple of KelTecs, or 3-4 Hi Points for the price of the AR upper and a couple of mags. And sure, you could trick out the AR, and make it even more expensive, but what's the point with a 9mm?

Doug S
May 17, 2006, 10:09 PM
The Kel-Tec is very nice. Particularly nice with 33 round Glock mags. The Hi-Point is not a bad firearm. Both have been completely reliable so far. Advantages of the Kel-Tec are the magazine, and ease of disassembly. Only paid $275 for the Kel-Tec, not much more that the Hi-Point.

444
May 17, 2006, 10:09 PM
"You can buy a couple of KelTecs, or 3-4 Hi Points for the price of the AR upper and a couple of mags."

And you still won't have an AR in 9mm.

"what's the point with a 9mm?"

Well, it's just like any other purchase you will make in your life. You can have an also ran. Or a couple also rans. Or you can have the best. What you buy is up to you. If I can afford the best, I buy the best. In this case, I can afford it. I learned long ago that I can buy a whole safe full of cheap guns, or I can buy a few really good guns. I have done both. The latter is more fun for me. YMMV

P95Carry
May 17, 2006, 10:12 PM
I like the KT and may yet get one. Have the Hi-Point but hate it - even tho it works!

I enjoy the Marlin Camp 9 but fave is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Total Buck Rogers looks but the ergonomics are good - get it in hand and it feels excellent - shoots good too. Main gripe is trigger is very rough - need to improve mine one day.

Mine has the rail and has a red dot on - no longer that fat thing in the pic but a Bushnell - good combination. They are IMO pretty over priced tho.


http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/storm-s.jpg

R.W.Dale
May 17, 2006, 10:14 PM
And you still won't have an AR in 9mm.

SO? is that some kind of requirement.

Good for you do you want a cookie or sumpin

444
May 17, 2006, 10:16 PM
"SO? is that some kind of requirement."

No, but I think you get my point even if you don't realize it.
One has nothing to do with the other. For the same money you could buy a car load of Cracker Jack or a gross of fishing lures. But, you still won't have an AR15. If you want an AR15, there is no substitute. I don't care if they give you 50 Hi-Points, it isn't what I want.

R.W.Dale
May 17, 2006, 10:19 PM
And what if the guy doesn't want to buy an example you're vastly superior AR what then.

444
May 17, 2006, 10:21 PM
Then he can re-read my post right up to the part where I said "What you buy is up to you."

The guy asked for advice. Since I have owned three of the guns in question, I offered my opinion, just like everybody else.
If you don't like my opinion, don't read my posts.
It really is that simple.
In fact, if you want to make it really simple, you can block my posts so they don't even show up on your screen. That feature is listed under "User CP" then click on "Ignore Lists"

R.W.Dale
May 17, 2006, 10:26 PM
Sorry But I just get a kick out the way that in the process of giving the guy some good sound advice you just have go give yourself a huge pat on the back in the process.

You gotta love THR

chaim
May 17, 2006, 11:06 PM
The only 9mm carbine I've had any experience with is the Hi-Point. I used to own one. It was a decent gun, emphasis on decent. It was reliable and pretty accurate. Something about the ergonomics was far from right though- the stock would hit my cheek just right that it was not particularly pleasant to shoot. Something not quite right about a 9mm long gun that isn't comfortable on recoil. Still, it wasn't bad and I was keeping it. At a MD THR shoot one of the other shooters liked it, I was only lukewarm on it, and gave him a price if he wanted to take it home and he did. I've shot that same Hi-Point carbine at later shoots with the red dot sight he's added. It raises the cheek weld enough that it is now a comfortable gun to shoot- it doesn't hit my cheek anymore. It is also a tack driver at the kind of distances you'll shoot a 9mm carbine. That red dot makes enough difference that I'll probably be adding another Hi-Point plus a red dot sight soon.

I don't have experience with the 9mm version of the AR15, but I do love my .223/5.56 AR. I plan to add a 9mm upper before long so I can get more use out of my AR. If you have any experience with the AR15/M16 platform and if you like it you may want to consider this route as well.

grimjaw
May 17, 2006, 11:11 PM
If you have the money to spend on what AR 9mm setup would cost, you might want to check out the HK MP5 clones that are available.

jmm

rangerruck
May 17, 2006, 11:39 PM
hi point has better accesory mountign possibilities.marlin cap carbine, i believe also takes s&w mags.

Dacoda
May 18, 2006, 12:19 AM
in the original post, the guy never mentioned anything about "cheap" carbines.. he asked for a "good" carbine. so maybe he'd consider the HK or AR.
and those berettas ARE nice to handle.

Advanced technologies makes a stock for the hi-point that's nearly identical to that beretta stock. for about $70 I think. if I knew how to post a picture, I'd show you. but I haven't gotten that far yet (feel free to teach me)

I think you can find a picture of that stock at cheaperthandirt.com

definite improvement of the "pry-bar" looking stock that comes with the hi-point. I dunno if I wanna shoot it, or use it to do construction :confused:

Doug S
May 18, 2006, 11:25 AM
This thread is becoming quite amusing. I guess people will find something to argue about no matter what. I think the point is that there are many fine options for 9mm carbines. Each person has their own likes and dislikes. Personally, what I value (what makes it "good") most in a close range defensive firearm of this type is reliability & magazine capacity. I like the Kel-Tec regardless of price, because it fills this niche well, not because it only cost $275. The Hi-Point is a fine “economical” carbine (doesn’t mean that it is “cheap”, just more easily acquired if one is working with limited funds). I will admit that I’ve not even considered the Beretta Storm because I can’t seeing paying $800 for a 9mm carbine (with more bells & whistles), when all I want is a basic defensive gun. Also I just can’t imagine that the quality/value of materials going into the Beretta are worth that much more than the Kel-Tec. Now if the Beretta proved to be superior in reliability and mag capacity (or if I wanted one with scope, etc), then the additional money might be well spent. The AR is a fine firearm, but I much prefer a “cheap” AK or SKS type firearm over the bells and whistles of an AR type range gun. Not that the AR cant function well in a defensive environment (of course it does), it’s just not what I’d want in a 9mm carbine.

Out of curiosity 444, is your 9mm AR reliable?

444
May 18, 2006, 11:58 AM
Yeah, with good magazines.
Mine uses Colt magazines which are very expensive (like $80). I bought this gun during the "ban) but the price of these magazines has not really come down much since the sunset of the ban. Colt (as usual) doesn't want these 9mm mags to fall into the hands of mere civilians. I have some submachine gun magazines (Argentina ?) that were advertised to work in it and they do, but not as well. They don't lock the bolt back after the last round but other than that, they function OK. Pro-Mag is now selling a plastic mag for the 9mm Colt that I bought from Dillon. I have not had good luck with so far but I haven't really spent a lot of time with them. FWIW, magazines are either 20 or 32 rounds.
If you are converting a standard AR15 to 9mm, you can take a different route and use Sten magazines which are like $2.00 each. Sten mags are also 32 rounds. I bought my gun before I knew about this: mine is a Colt factory 9mm marked on the receiver as a 9mm. The mag block is pinned into the reciever. Most conversions use a drop-in mag block, so converting mine to the cheaper magazines isn't really an attractive idea.
Now, since this is the internet, I have to add that I have only fired my gun on ranges and during a few jackrabbit hunts. I never tried it during something like the D-Day landing or the invasion of North Africa. But, for my uses it runs fine. I have only cleaned it once since I bought it about 4-5 years ago. It operates by blow back in 9mm and not direct impingement like the 5.56 AR15/M16. There is no gas block, gas tube etc. The bolt is also different from a 5.56 AR15: there is not a seperate bolt and bolt carrier, it is all one piece.
I did have a little trouble when I first got the suppressed upper ( http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/863787/index.htm ). It took me awhile to figure out that the upper came with a "ramped" bolt. http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/866797/index.htm This was the source of malfunctions. I swapped out for my original bolt and it runs like a top. When using the suppressor, the gun gets extremly dirty with powder fouling (carbon ?). But, this doesn't seem to effect operation.

FWIW, I have fired the Colt SMG a few times and really wanted one. But, I have never seen a transferable one for sale and don't have any idea what one would cost. So, I bought the semi-auto and tried to make it look like the Colt SMG: http://www.colt.com/mil/SMG.asp
Here is an interesting article on the Colt SMG that also applies to the semi-auto in terms of range etc.: http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/coltm635.html Chuck Taylor seems to love his. He claims to have used it under battlefield conditions and never had a malfunction. He claims 4" groups at 100 yards and claims he can keep all his rounds in the "A" zone of a silhouette at 200 yards.
This gun, with the 11.5" upper (the 10.5" real Colt uppers were like 3x what I paid for the 11.5" I ended up with) is one of the handiest and fun guns I have ever owned.

Of course, since that time, I have learned a lot and now realize that you could make yourself up a Colt SMG by buying an M16 registered receiver and adding a 10.5" barreled 9mm upper, 9mm hammer, and a mag block.

Also FWIW, I don't think a semi-auto MP5 is in the same league with the AR15in 9mm. I have never handled one, but I have handled quite a few select fire MP5s. IMO, the AR15 is the better platform. Right out of the box it has far better sights to begin with. However, since mine is a flat top, I have an Aimpoint ML3 on mine.

chakup
May 18, 2006, 12:12 PM
I'll agree with 444, even though I don't have mine yet. SBR paperwork is going through. I'll probably 10.5" barrel, may go even shorter though since a can will be hanging off the end which will add some length. yeah it cost more up front. But it looks better and I have thousands of options.

Domino
May 18, 2006, 12:17 PM
The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is going to have most utility and greatest adaptabilty when compared to its competion. Its also at least (if not more) as accurate as the most expensive 9mm carbine such as an AR or MP5 clone. Its price, mobility, magazine compatibility, accuracy, and simplicity are what sold me on mine of which I couldn't be happier with. It is a perfect big brother to my Glock 19.

Here is my comparison list...

Hi-Point 995 - cheap, effective, durable, and accurate. Can't be beat for the money

Kel Tec S2K - moderately priced, highly effective and adaptable. A must for those who have a pistol in which it shares magazines.

Ruger PC9 - Not Cheap, very well built, durable, conventional design. Great companion for a P series pistol.

Beretta Storm CX4 - Not Cheap, nice controls, good ergonomics, ambidextrious. Great combo for a 92 series pistol.

Ar-15 9mm - expensive, great ergonomics. You get what you pay for. It isn't going to beat its competion noticibly in accuracy or performance.

MP5 Clone - expensive, great ergonmics and feel. A must for those who have to have an MP5, but again it won't outperform a Hi-point or Kel-Tec.

Its all about what you want.

Stiletto Null
May 18, 2006, 12:31 PM
I really don't like the CX4 storm. It's just awkward for me.

Another Hi-Point vote here.

Medusa
May 18, 2006, 01:48 PM
Another vote to MP-5 style gun, or Steyr TMP

444
May 18, 2006, 01:57 PM
I forgot to mention that there are also Beta C mags (100 round drums) being currently manufactured for the Colt 9mm.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/BETA-CCS900.html

These are also available for the HK MP5 SMG. I have no reason to believe they wouldn't work in a semi-auto clone. http://www.impactguns.com/store/BETA-MHM901.html


Accessory items like this are one big benefit of going with a mainstream weapons platform.


Holy Christ I see they are coming out with a Beta mag for the M1A !!!!
How much does an M1A with a loaded 100 round drum weigh ??????????????
EDIT: The loaded mag weighs 10.5 pounds PLUS the rifle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doug S
May 18, 2006, 02:22 PM
444,

Thanks for the response & info.

Lou629
May 18, 2006, 02:33 PM
I got the beretta storm 2 weeks ago. I haven't put a lot of trigger time in with it yet, but so far i love the thing. I have to admit that i didn't care for its' looks at all when i first saw it, but then i had an opportunity to handle & fire one...Sold! This thing shoots better than I do, if you know what i mean. Expensive? yea, i suppose, but it's all relative to what you want and what you like, right? I had tried the kel-tec and the ruger, and the keltec didn't 'fit' me right, while i couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn with the ruger. The beretta gave me good fit & accuracy which filled the want & like catagories, ( the looks of it are slowly growing on me...lol) and came in at a price i was more willing to pay as compared to an AR for example. So far it's been a win-win situation.

smince
May 18, 2006, 07:46 PM
If you have a 1911 or Glock in 9mm, perhaps you might consider one of these:

www.mechtechsys.com

Manedwolf
May 19, 2006, 10:50 AM
Another vote for the Kel-Tec. Not only is it fun, accurate and inexpensive, but it FOLDS, adding a whole other dimension of usefulness.

You can carry it in any laptop bag that fits a 17" laptop. You can stuff it into a backpack, or even a rolled-up sleeping bag, should you find yourself in a SHTF situation where officious FEMA sorts or others "won't allow guns" past a checkpoint or into an evacuation shelter. You are NOT going to be allowed to walk into a shelter/boat/etc...with an AR. The Kel-Tec can be kept small till needed.

I like it.

bowfin
May 19, 2006, 11:08 AM
444,

I agree with this:

If I can afford the best, I buy the best. .

In my youth, I shopped for bargains, not value. That was fun, but I ended up with a bunch of guns of which brought me more satisfaction in buying than owning

I have bought a lot of better firearms also, and I can't ever say I thought "You know I could have bought two or three of this or that."

Remember, it isn't considered cheating if you hold off and save up to buy something better than a Hi-Point. I am satisfied with my Hi-Point, but if I had it to do over again, I would have bided my time, watched my pennies, and have a Kahr M1 Carbine instead.

Zach S
May 19, 2006, 09:12 PM
If you have the money to spend on what AR 9mm setup would cost, you might want to check out the HK MP5 clones that are available.
I dont know what the clones run, but I havent seen an HK94 for under two and a half grand in a long time. That's enough for me to build two 9mm AR15s, and mine is almost as much fun as an MP5. Of course the biggest part about that is the fact that my AR is more southpaw friendly.

grimjaw
May 19, 2006, 11:06 PM
I dont know what the clones run, but I havent seen an HK94 for under two and a half grand in a long time.

Zach S, Atlantic Firearms has them starting ~$1100. Not my first choice, but neither is the AR. I don't want to sink a ton into a pistol caliber carbine unless it's full auto capable or high capacity magnum (love to have a Deerfield with a 20 round mag).

jmm

meef
May 20, 2006, 12:59 AM
Kel-Tec, people. Kel-Tec.

For all the reasons Manedwolf stated. And the price is soooo right. Get a Sub 2000 that takes Glock 17 magazines. Plus - you can buy a few cheap, fun goodies to hang on it that don't increase the bulk to any noticable degree.

Honestly, it's a no-brainer.

:D

Stiletto Null
May 20, 2006, 11:34 AM
Oh yeah...for the price of a Storm, you can bump up to a Kel-Tec SU-16. But that's OT.

BillinNH
May 20, 2006, 12:43 PM
For those who like visual comparisons here are my pistol caliber carbines:

Marlin Camp Carbine 45 cal.
Marlin Camp Carbine 9mm
High Point 995 carbine 9mm
Keltec Sub2000 in 9mm, S%W magazine format. Note the butt stock extender which helps the ergonomics a lot IMO.

Bill

Nhsport
May 20, 2006, 02:40 PM
I have some experience with some of the guns in question so I will weigh in.
First thing to do with any firearm purchase is to try and identify exactly what type of shooting you intend to do with it and what you expect out of it.
9mm carbines are great shooting fun with the cheepest ammo in centerfire shooting. I was mostly interested in shooting an indoor plate match that was run once a month for pistol caliber carbines .I had owned the KT for a while,crazy briefcase gun ,I bought it during the AWB set for the beretta mags as they were available. Pretty good shooting,sights are pretty good,but difficult to adjust. I had some dificulty getting a proper cheek weld ,had to really mash my cheek to get on the sights. Quite a few friends shot this gun and didn't have the problem I did so I guess I have a funny shape head. more recoil than one would imagine, not painfull but difficult to keep on the sights in rapid-fire. As discussed all you get with this gun is iron sights,a scope would be a project.
I bought a new Ruger. surpriseingly heavy (bad to tote around,good to shoot) great sights,and a nasty heavy trigger. Mine went back to Ruger and the trigger came back better but still heavy. Gunsmith went through it an it was slightly better but still very heavy.Best the trigger ever got was about 9 lbs
Off the bench if you really worked the trigger pull it was quite accurate but offhand the trigger yanked shots all over the place.
I allready had AR's and all the sighting systems to go with them so when I found an Olympic arms 9mm upper used with stacks of mags and toys I jumped at it and never looked back. The Oly has worked well for me,I have the A2 with sten mags and a mag block. 32rounds ! the mags are a stinker to load so I chopped the springs,they sill load hard but at $4 each I have a stack that I load at home to save me from fighting with them when I am at the range. If I were buying new I would get the flatop Oly and set it up for glock mags.
Most of the folks shooting the pistol cal plate shoot ended up shooting AR's or berettas. A few would show with something odd but most were not holding up against the AR's and the Beretta's
One guy shot some kind of HK but he had it set as a SBR and had the drop in class III trigger group ,he also had a removeable can, Needless to say with all the tax stamps and so forth he had $20,000 invested in the whole package! Now that was a fun gun to plink with !

rfurtkamp
May 20, 2006, 07:28 PM
You've all neglected to mention the venerable Uzi.

In semi-automatic form, it's heavy, clunky, expensive, and my absolute favorite 9mm carbine to shoot despite these flaws.

Fun has to be factored in when dealing with 9mm carbines IMO.

http://robert.furtkamp.com/guns/vectoruzi.jpg

I liked my first so much I bought two.

Now I wait for the Form 1 to come back.

jjohnson
May 21, 2006, 09:47 PM
I have one of the discontinued Camp 9's and like it. It handles like a heavier version of a Ruger 10/22, uses S&W 59 mags (which I also have a bunch of) and it takes a red dot scope like a natural. IF you get one at a gun show or something, just remember, look up Widener's for a replacement recoil buffer (the Marlin factory one broke at 500 rounds or so) and get a Wolff recoil spring suited to whatever load you want to use. Mine was going to beat itself to death between a brittle buffer and an inadequate spring. Luckily, you can get some parts. It's NOT a replacement for the AR15, but hey, it was a lot cheaper. Mine groups really well at 50 yards, and with a red dot sight, it's a real slick setup for quick shots. Some of the other carbines are fine - it's a good excuse to get one if you already have a pile of compatible pistol magazines lying around. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Good luck.

Manedwolf
May 21, 2006, 10:00 PM
The primary reason for my suggestion is that the original poster mentioned "defense". And to me, yeah, the $1200 Kahr carbine might be fun, as might some others... but if it comes to an actual defense or SHTF situation, the last you'll see of that $$$ carbine is it leaving in the hands of an investigator to MAYBE be returned in the first case, or in the second, leaving in the hands of a stormtrooper-sort of cop or other official at a checkpoint, never to be seen again.

In the first instance, the Kel-Tec isn't much over $200. In the second, because it folds, you could easily hide it and wouldn't be left defenseless.

If there's a New Orleans 2 in your area for some reason, any long gun you're wandering around with will be a magnet for the wrong sort of attention and you'll likely lose it. The kel-tec is 16 and a half inches long when folded.

rfurtkamp
May 22, 2006, 06:41 PM
The primary reason for my suggestion is that the original poster mentioned "defense".

Then get the best you can afford with a track record. If that's a Kel-tec, so be it. Practice, hope, and prepare. I personally won't be bringing a 9mm carbine to a defensive situation if I have a choice, but different people perceive different needs.

And to me, yeah, the $1200 Kahr carbine might be fun, as might some others...

I didn't realize Kahr was making Uzis now.

It's a $550 Vector.

but if it comes to an actual defense or SHTF situation, the last you'll see of that $$$ carbine is it leaving in the hands of an investigator to MAYBE be returned in the first case, or in the second, leaving in the hands of a stormtrooper-sort of cop or other official at a checkpoint, never to be seen again.


Funny. I've kept my firearms after incidents here, as state law requires - unless I'm charged with a felony. Miraculously, through judicious and legal use of force, I have never been charged with one.

As far as stormtroopers and checkpoints, el-cheapo or el-expensivo carbines aren't going to help you there in that hypothetical situation. When pink ninjas drop from the lunar surface, they will be of dubious need too.



The kel-tec is 16 and a half inches long when folded.


And the Uzi is similarly sized when the barrel is removed with a simple unscrewing operation. Oops.

444
May 22, 2006, 07:02 PM
I think it is flawed thinking to purposely buy and use a defensive firearm based on how much you would lose ($) if it was taken as evidence. What more important use for a firearm could their be other than defending your own life from lethal force ? It seems silly to me to hold back your good guns for shooting beer cans and choose the cheapest one to defend your life. How much is your life worth ?

Doug S
May 22, 2006, 07:29 PM
None of the recent posts acknowledge that none of the other Kel-Tec owners have mentioned the S2K as being a throwaway gun. I've only got a few hundred rounds through my Sub, but it has been flawless so far (regardless of the Glock magazine I've used 10, 17 or 33 rounders). Most people who like the Kel-Tec, like it because of the design and the fact that it works. Price was mentioned only as a secondary advantage. Being happy with a $1000+ pistol caliber carbine is fine, but I don't think being happy with a $250 9mm carbine (that works) is anything to be looked down upon. Price seems to make some people too proud. Can anyone tell me how any of the AR's, etc., carbines are functionally superior to a Kel-Tec sub gun that works flawlessly (as most of them seem to do)?

rfurtkamp
May 22, 2006, 07:39 PM
Most people who like the Kel-Tec, like it because of the design and the fact that it works. Price was mentioned only as a secondary advantage.


I've fired a friend's on numerous occasions. I do not like the charging handle in particular, and as a whole, the gun feels 'cheap' to me in my hands in a way that other budget guns do not.

It doesn't discount that it works for you - and the irony here is most of the people who are mentioning alternatives aren't saying the product is a throwaway gun - that's a straw man you've invented.

That said, I'll welcome your review when you hit, say, 10k rounds fired through the gun and have had it a few years. If you're still extremely happy then, you've found the gun for you.

Doug S
May 22, 2006, 07:53 PM
rfurtcamp,

I'm sure that you realize that my post was not specifically directed toward your comments, but thanks for the arrogant lecture about round counts anyway.

Actually it was this line that prompted my response.
It seems silly to me to hold back your good guns for shooting beer cans and choose the cheapest one to defend your life. How much is your life worth ?


Looking over my last post, I guess that I should change my first statement from "None of the recent posts..." to a more accurate, "Some of the posts in this thread..." seem more concerned with the price of a firearm. Some may even discount pretty serviceable guns because they do not meet their price point.


Still, if you'd like to answer my question, I'd be interested in reading your answer.

rfurtkamp
May 22, 2006, 08:02 PM
Can anyone tell me how any of the AR's, etc., carbines are functionally superior to a Kel-Tec sub gun that works flawlessly (as most of them seem to do)?


Functionally superior is simple: The AR, MP5 platform (and even decent clones), Uzi, and other military-derived designs have been stress and torture tested past a "few hundred" rounds.

That's where the "arrogance" comes in - I want a gun I know for a fact will fire when I need it to not just in an emergency tomorrow, but twenty emergencies from now thirty years down the road. I want a lifetime gun.

The HKs, ARs, Uzis, and the like are that gun - because of the track record.

This isn't to say that those who jumped on the HK bandwagon when they were first released are any different than you are now - except for the milspec part, anyway - they're willing to try new things to achieve their goal. Perhaps the Beretta Storm or the Kel-tec will become modern classics. That's why I said get back to me in a few years and a few thousand rounds.

I'm old-fashioned in that I want defense guns I know for a fact will work, that spare parts are plentiful, that I or any other competent gunsmith can work on without incident, and have served well in their intended purpose in the defense of the lives of their owners.

The Kel-tec, as much as I hate to keep driving the point home, wasn't designed or tested to this point: it's a sporting firearm, not a defensive one.

Perhaps it will excel in the latter role. Perhaps it will not. I'm not going to roll the dice when it just doesn't feel like a gun I want to own.

444
May 22, 2006, 08:07 PM
" It seems silly to me to hold back your good guns for shooting beer cans and choose the cheapest one to defend your life. How much is your life worth ? "

"And to me, yeah, the $1200 Kahr carbine might be fun, as might some others... but if it comes to an actual defense or SHTF situation, the last you'll see of that $$$ carbine is it leaving in the hands of an investigator to MAYBE be returned in the first case, or in the second, leaving in the hands of a stormtrooper-sort of cop or other official at a checkpoint, never to be seen again. "

Reading is fundamental. Maybe you should read all the posts in this thread before you jump to conslusions.
Maybe a little too much coffee this evening ?

If you buy a gun because you have weighed all the options and decided it was the best gun for your needs, then IMO it is flawed logic to NOT use that guy because you are worried about losing a few hundred dollars if it is seized as evidence. I don't care what kind of gun we are talking about.

Doug S
May 22, 2006, 10:22 PM
rfurtkamp,

The Kel-tec, as much as I hate to keep driving the point home, wasn't designed or tested to this point: it's a sporting firearm, not a defensive one...Perhaps it will excel in the latter role. Perhaps it will not. I'm not going to roll the dice when it just doesn't feel like a gun I want to own.

I can understand this, and I will also agree that military weapons that have been tested over a period of years are better for defensive purposes. That said, I don't think your earlier response specifically addressed my point of view, that if a firearm works 100% of the time that it shouldn't be discounted from use simply because they are more economical in price. Obviously all firearms were new once upon a time, and many of them also met with stiff resistence from individuals who were unwilling to try new things. Historically, opposition to many new military tools was common. Such a mentality was also the reason that the military of more than one country has been caught unprepared for new wars. Make no mistake, Iíd consider myself foolish to put the Kel-Tec into this category of weaponry.

I would like to apologize for my arrogant response. The comment on round count irritated my slightly because such things are obvious to any experienced shooter. In no way did I ever attempt to say that my newly manufactured Kel-Tec has been proven over the long term. What I said was that it has been 100% so far, and I found it peculiar that some people will jump to conclusions about the serviceability of a firearm based primarily on price. Yes, you most often get what you pay for, but occasionally you find a product that works well regardless of price paid. So far, my Kel-Tec has been that kind of purchase for me.

444,

I made some generalizations that should have been directed specifically to you.

Reading is fundamental...[QUOTE]

Comments like this are the basis of my sentiments on arrogance, and have been all too common in your comments from the very beginning of this thread. You come across as more of a braggart, than as someone trying to share knowledge. I've tried to politely address your comments by discussing the facts. You were kind enough to provide a response to my original question when you admitted that you pricey AR carbine is not in fact as reliable as my cheap Kel-Tec. I appreciated your honesty. Later you come up with the following:

[QUOTE]If you buy a gun because you have weighed all the options and decided it was the best gun for your needs, then IMO it is flawed logic to NOT use that guy because you are worried about losing a few hundred dollars if it is seized as evidence. I don't care what kind of gun we are talking about.

This part makes sense, and I have no disagreement here.

But...choose the cheapest one to defend your life. here is where I take issue with you. You continually define carbines which cost less as "cheap", and seem to believe that if a gun is affordable that it can not be trusted to work. I like the Kel-Tec because it is very concealable, and reliable. I do not promote it because it is "cheap".

I have several friends who are in fact AR lovers. They will also admit that their guns require some maintenance to keep them up and running flawlessly. My Kel-Tec, SKS and AK carbines require very little maintenance, and have all been 100% even though they cost less. I'm not promoting these guns as being better than AR type firearms. I'm just stating the fact that I personally prefer them to firearms that crap where they eat, and require tweaking to keep them up and running. I can have this opinion while also acknowledging that you and others rightfully prefer other types of firearms. You sir, on the other hand, seem to struggle in acknowledging that anything outside of your own realm of opinion could be a valid option and a useful firearm. Others have noticed as much, and have also commented. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't even comment. Since I got myself into this conversation though, I wanted to address you most recent post. Iím sorry if Iíve misread your comments, and if I am misinterpreting your views. I will admit that I do come across as arrogant in my most recent post, and for this I do sincerely apologize. I have no desire to argue with anyone here. I enjoy this forum, and appreciate all of your comments. I became frustrated that the ďcheapĒ Kel-Tec people canít seem to acknowledge that the Kel-Tec is working for many people, regardless of itís cost.

444
May 22, 2006, 10:47 PM
Look, I love to argue. When someone actually wants to discuss a topic instead of just saying "I got one and I love mine", I jump at the chance to discuss it. I think you are falling into the trap of taking this all too seriously.

"You come across as more of a braggart, than as someone trying to share knowledge."
Well, I am not sure how to respond to that. I provided my opinion and I made it clear how I came to the conclusions (my personal experience with three different 9mm carbines). I provided links to the products I was talking about so you could look into the matter further if you really were interested. . If that isn't sharing knowlege, I don't know what is. Who else on this thread provided any links to the information you specifically asked for ? To me, that is sharing knowlege but I guess you don't ? When I make a post, I try to give a rationale as to why I feel the way I do. And, since I am arrogant, I will say that very few of the posts you read on this board make any effort at listing the experience or research that they used to come up with their conclusions.

"continually define carbines which cost less as "cheap", and seem to believe that if a gun is affordable that it can not be trusted to work."
If you go way back to the beginning of this thread you will see that I posted that I own a Hi-Point which is cheaper than your KelTec. I also posted that I didn't have anything bad to say about it. I didn't specifically address YOUR gun because I have never owned or fired one. Again, when I post a comment I usually post my personal experience with the product instead of just repeating something I read or something I heard. If this is arrogance, then OK, I am arrogant. For all I know the KelTec Carbine is the greatest thing in the world but I don't know because I have zero experience with it. If it makes you feel better I do own a KelTec P11 and whatever they call the little .32: but, I know nothing about the carbine.

"choose the cheapest one to defend your life. "
Again, you are quoting me out of context. I was talking about the comment of NOT using your chosen carbine for self defense for fear it might be seized as evidence. I disagree with that position. Therefore I disagree with choosing the cheapest carbine to defend your life: I think you should use the carbine you believe is the best to defend your life cost be damned. I don't care if it is a Hi-Point, Kel-Tec, Ruger, Beretta, or something from Mars, if you chose it based on careful research and you shot it enough to gain confidence with it, then that is what you need to grab if your life is on the line. If it gets confiscated then at least you are alive to worry about it. The idea of putting your "good" guns away and choosing something cheap just in case it gets confiscated IMO is a mistake.
I explained this in my last post.

"I'm just stating the fact that I personally prefer them to firearms that crap where they eat, and require tweaking to keep them up and running. "
Once again, if you actually read my response to your questions, you would see that the 9mm AR15 operates by blowback (just like every other carbine in this thread including your KelTec) and NOT direct impingement. These expressions sound cute, but doesn't apply. There is no gas system.
Not that this matters to the discussion but none of my AR15s require any tweaking to run. Again, if you read what I wrote I said that the Colt factory magazines run flawlessly. BUT, two different aftermarket magazines I tried don't work as well. If choosing good reliable magazines is tweaking then I guess you got me.

craig
May 22, 2006, 10:49 PM
i have a sub 2000(beretta version) that so far has about 4000 rounds through it with no problems.

it has the stock ext. (good addition) and a blue force cheek pad.

it's an amazingly accurate gun out to about75 yards.

it even works with some 30 round pro mag range mags i have.

i wouldn't hesitate to use it defensively, because it works.

michael_aos
May 22, 2006, 11:21 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/michael_aos/.Pictures/Guns/K9GL/IMG_5083.jpg

Buzter
May 23, 2006, 09:34 PM
kel-tec or hi-point. If you don't mind 10 rd. mags the hi-points are pretty in-expensive and they run forever. I've had my hi-point for 10 yrs. It's like the energizer bunny.

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