[zahc]

I was pretty set on a PM9 for my CC gun when I get my CC permit. I'm skinny and I like how small and light it is. Relatively. But I don't like them now because the locals are having trouble with them, and they are also really expensive.

I'm not looking to go under 9mm. The baby glocks and xds are small but seem so thick....

What else is out there that I might not know about that is similar?

[Erich]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Erich505/RohrbaughGrandmaGadoTday1Dec5007.jpg

Rohrbaugh R9s? ;)

[ShelbyV8]

Taurus PT111

[kart racer]

cz pcr,p11,skyy

[RyanM]

Why not get an MK9?

[JohnKSa]

But I don't like them now because the locals are having trouble with them, and they are also really expensive.Sorry, but all the problems he mentions apply even more strongly to a Rohrbaugh, Erich.

Kel-Tec sells some small 9mm handguns. Kahr sells a CW9 which is a bit larger and less expensive than the PM9 but still very thin and light.

[Bobo]

This may help:
http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=171820

[ta4]

I have a PM9 & it's my favorite gun. After the break in period, mine has been perfect. Unfortunately, if you like the mini guns, the options are few. It is expensive, but I think you'd feel the PM9 was a good purchase. I load mine with PowrBall for carry. At 100g it makes an effective, light carry out of the Kahr. The only good alternative, I think, would be a Makarov. They're cheap, ammo is cheap, they are highly accurate & dependable. Good luck with your decision.

[Rob1035]

rent a G26, it might be a bit thicker than the Kahrs, but its still plenty concealable. I carry mine in a CTAC, even under t-shirts

[zahc]

Man, you guys rock. The p-11 looks really nice, and is really cheap. I really like the way the Skyy has the top of the slide machined, but I don't like how it has a manual safety. I suppose with a 9lb trigger pull the user could just as well keep it on 'fire' and ignore it...or remove it.

[mdao]

How are you going to carry? If it's pocket carry, I'd say go with one of the Kel-Tecs. They're light, inexpensive, reliable, and surprisingly accurate.

If you're going holster carry, try a S&W 3913. It's barely thicker than the PM9, more accurate, more reliable, and not too much heavier.

[Azrael256]

The Kel-Tec PF9 might be just what you're after. It's like the P11, but thinner. After buying a P11 for holster carry, I'm seriously considering a PF9 for pocket carry.

[10-Ring]

The 2 guys I know that have the PM9 have loved them...price really should be secondary as long as it's the right tool for the job ;)

[wrangler5]

FWIW, I've had a KelTec P11 for about 6 months and can't wait to get rid of it for a Kahr PM9. I got to shoot a PM9 last weekend - what a sweet improvement over the KT.

The KelTec is indeed cheap, and it works reliably after a bit of breaking in. But it has a LOOOOOONG trigger pull which I have not been able to get used to, and consequently don't shoot the gun very well. It is also 0.1 inch thicker and 0.3 inch longer than a PM9, but of course it holds 10+1. The KT is about an ounce lighter when empty, but would be heavier fully loaded because of he extra ammo.

None of these guns is a lot of fun to shoot (in my limited experience) except the Makarov, which is a heavier gun with a lower power load. But I have found the combination of the light weight and long trigger pull of the KT to be particularly uncomfortable after only a couple of magazines, which means I don't like to practice much with it. I HOPE that the PM9 will be better in that regard - it certainly felt more comfortable last weekend, and I had my KT to shoot side by side with it.

As always, YMMV. KelTec does have wonderful waranty service if you need it, and there is an active forum for all of their guns.

[ugaarguy]

I recently bought a Kel-Tec P-11 for the size/power/price ratio. It's a great little defensive pistol, but the trigger pull is looong. The P-11's price and quality got me hooked on Kel-Tecs so I purchased a P-3AT when I found a good price on one. The P-3AT has a lighter and shorter trigger, I enjoy shooting it more, and it's MUCH smaller than the P-11. I like the P-11 quite a bit, but not enough to keep it after getting the P-3AT. I actually bought bought the P-11 thinking like you that 9x19 should be the minimum - the size of the little 380 Kel-Tec changed my mind. From what I've read over on www.ktog.org the PF-9 will be only slightly larger than the P-3AT and have a very similar trigger once they hit dealer shelves. For the price of a Kahr or (even less than) a Rohrbaugh you could get a P-3AT now and a PF-9 when the come out. I think the Kel-Tecs are the best value in a pocket pistol on the market right now. In keeping within the context that a pocket pistol is an emergency use defensive tool I have no problem with 6+1 rounds of 380 ACP in the little Kel-Tec. I know 380 is a bit smaller than a 9mm Luger/Parabellum/9x19, but I think you'd be very pleased with a P-3AT - I am.

[ugaarguy]

Ohh yeah, don't forget that the P-11 has 12 round flush fit mags available from Kel-Tec, so it can actually hold 13 rounds total.

[Alan Fud]

zahc, I was like you. My first CCW was a Kahr MK9. Great shooter but a bit heavy and I didn't feel comfortable with the light trigger pull for concealed carry. I was going to also mention the Rohrbaughs as an alternative but you mentioned price as a consideration and the Rohrbaughs aren't cheap.

May, I then, suggest a Colt Pocket Nine ...

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f175.jpg

... the gun is about the same size as a PPK but is chambered in 9mm parabellum and is +P rated. While it is no longer in production, NIB and near-NIB models can still be found at fairly reasonable prices.

I, personally, wouldn't recommend a Kel-Tec or a Skyy. While some people swear by them, I've had reliability problems with both of them even after trips back to the factories.

all the problems he mentions apply even more strongly to a RohrbaughIf you feed them Golddots, they function flawlessly. Anything else, in my personal experience, has been either hit or miss with regards to reliability.

[ChristopherG]

A PM9 is an imperfect substitute for an airweight S&W j-frame ;)

Incomparable reliability, no-brainer simplicity of operation, and a capable, full-size service round. And, the 642 or 442 (hammerless models) are widely available for 300 bucks.

[nelson133]

I own both of the Kel-Tecs and like them both. The P-11 does have a long trigger, but I've gotten used to it and it doesn't bother me now. It is a little bulky and I would look at the P-9 that is slimmer than the P-11 and combines the best of the P3-AT and the P-11. It is supposed to be out in June.
It should go without saying, but any of the small light guns will recoil somewhat strongly. If you have a problem with recoil, you may want to test before buying.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Go with a Kahr P9. The PM9s will naturally have reliability issues, as all sub compacts tend to have. I have had the P9 since it first hit the market, and after many untold thousands of rounds, it has never failed to fire. My friend, impressed by my gun's track record, wanted one too, but was lured into getting the PM9 against my recommendation (chopped down autos are notorious for reliability issue), he bought the PM9. Been having regular jams since day one. Sent it back, they can't get it to work right. It's predictable. Same is true for chopped down 1911s. All the dynamics of timing change when you chop an auto pistol down, and it will not tolerate any slight variation is action speed. The Kahr P9 is the size it was designed to be from the beginning. It's the size it was when it earned its well deserved reputation for reliability, and approval of many police departments for off duty and back up carry. There is no reliability problem with the standard sized (standard sized, in this case, is about the size of a Walther PPK) P9.

[Whirlwind06]

I was at a gun show a few weeks ago and a dealer had a Kel-Tek P11 and a Para-Ordnance CCW LDA .45 (pretty sure that is the model) They just happened to be laying side by side. They are about the same size. The Para is heavier, but for me it kind of made a little light go on in my head. Neither of these guns are "pocket guns" both would have to go into a holster. So why buy a plastic 9mm when I can buy a metal 45?

[Alan Fud]

a dealer had a Kel-Tek P11 and a Para-Ordnance CCW LDA .45 (pretty sure that is the model) They just happened to be laying side by side. They are about the same sizeThe Para C6 is indeed small. Here it is next to a PPK ...

http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f178.jpg

[bobaloo]

Another option is the Kahr CW9, it's a less expensive version of the PM9 but I have not seen any reports of problems with them. The problems I've seen have been confined to the PM9 model.

I have a CW9 with about 1500 rounds through it trouble-free, I love it. List price is around $400.

[poppy]

My vote is for the P9. It is the top contender for my CCW. I don't see the point of having a 9mm pistol that I can't fully grip with all 5 fingers. Some get mag extensions for the PM series, but that just increases the size to close to the regular size.

Even my 1911 45ACP friends like my P9.

[Dravur]

Here are a couple of the guns I use. I also carry a Glock 19, but the P7 is carried occasionally as well as the Mustang Plus 2 in .380. I toss the Mustang in the pants when i go walking, just as a nice carry peice.

And yes, I have had the P7 hard chromed. Bling Bling

[MCgunner]

I ain't trading my P11 for a PF9 when they come out. The P11 is 2 ounces heavier, 0.1" thicker, the same length and the same height. For that very SLIGHT extra unloaded weight and thickness, I have 11 round capacity with the stock magazines.

I, too, am quite used to the trigger. I was shooting DA revolvers a long time before I got a DAO auto. It is very accurate and I shoot it well, as good as a lot of service guns. It's a VERY impressive little gun. If I were phobic of the trigger, I would definitely consider the PF9, though, because I understand the trigger will be as with the P3AT, ligher, shorter. But, I like the P11 trigger for carry. As was said, I, too, consider the Kel Tecs the absolute value in compact 9s. They're reliable, accurate, small, and light.

Don't over-look the various light weight five shot J frame revolvers, but I really prefer the little compact 9s for SD CCW duty. They just work better when the shooting starts, for me, anyway. That said, I ain't sellin' my revolvers, either!!!!

[Manedwolf]

The Taurus Milpro PT series are pretty thin and light. The Kahr MK9 is a HEAVY little thing. The one I'd picked up in a shop seemed like it'd be an pants-pulldowner without a really good belt.

[albanian]

I wouldn't get a plastic Kahr or a Kel-Tec again. I have had both and both were not reliable enough to stake my life on them.

I don't think there is anything better then the light weight snubbies like the S&W 642. They are not the best gun, it is just that everything else is worse.:D Five for sure.

[zahc]

I'm not interested in revolvers. The cylinder is simply too thick, and they are heavy.

[mdao]

Heavy? I dunno, 12 oz unloaded for the S&W 360 ain't too bad. And yeah, the cylinder is thicker than the frame most pocket autos, but they're not any harder to conceal. Without a holster, I'd say my PM9 prints a whole lot more than my 360 in pocket carry.

[The Real Hawkeye]

It is simply not true that revolvers are more dependable than autos. I have had lots of revolvers seize up their cylinder rotation during a practice shoot for one reason or another, totally disabling them. I am talking about Colts, Rugers and Smith & Wessons. Timing issues and lead buildup can cause this, not to mention parts breakage, the last of which is much more likely in a revolver than an auto. Additionally, it is much easier to properly clean and maintain an auto. I have about 20 auto pistols, and about the same number of revolvers. Of the autos, I only have a couple that have ever malfunctioned during firing, yet I have at least four revolvers that have seized up during a shooting session. When that happens to a revolver, it's not usually something you can quickly clear. Often it needs a trip to the 'smith, while an auto jam can usually be cleared in a couple of seconds.

[TOADMAN]

Get the G26 and adapt to it...It is just to reliable to pass-up...

[Alan Fud]

+1 to what Hawkeye just said.

[marshall3]

The ideal pocket gun is the Kel-Tec P3AT:

http://www.mouseguns.com/ideal2.htm

[Michigunner]

The new Kel-Tec 9mm (very small) should be in the stores any day now, if not already.

[Dollar An Hour]

The new Kel-Tec 9mm (very small) should be in the stores any day now, if not already.

It *was* supposed to be delivered in May, but the latest word from KTOG is looking like August.

If you're cool with .380 as a caliber, you can't beat the power/size of the P3AT.

Otherwise, the Glock 26 is easily concealed and has legions of fans.

Also may want to look at Walther's P99C, similar size to the Glock but 3 trigger choices and a bit more comfy in the hand for alot of folks. :)

[dmallind]

My PM9 has been flawless from the box. So have many others. There isn't a brand out there that doesn't have some people who have quality complaints.

If you look around you can pick one up with NS for about $550 - Ordnance Outsellers is a good place to start.

To get notably cheaper than that you have to go to the lesser quality brands like KelTec. Now I know some people love KelTecs and I know they can be made to be reliable. They are very small - but just look at the quality of the materials and the fit and finish to see they are very different in quality. If that doesn't bother you - which is perfectly OK - then the PF9 looks mighty tempting to me - may even try it out myself.

Rohrbaughs? Almost DOUBLE the Kahr price and no +p. Sleek though.

Metal Kahr's? No objective advantage yet the disadvantage of heavier weight. Plastic framed guns can take plenty of abuse and tolerate far more rounds than you are likely to push through a carry piece once you are comfortable with its feel and reliability. NONE of these tiny guns are all that fun to shoot compared to full sized ones so most of your range or sport shooting is ghoing to be with something else most like.

Glock 26? Great option if it fits your carry preference. I'm a pocket carry guy and it's too bulky for me (and I'm a big heavy guy). It FITS in a pocket but neither looks nor feels comfy and concealed in there - especially seated. If you go to IWB though that's a great gun for CCW.

Taurus? A little bit bigger but some of the smaller 9s aren't impossible - although again for pocket carry would be a bit much I'd think. Longer and heavier trigger than the Kahrs IMO but close. I don't know if the new 24/7 Pro SA/DA comes in a single stack 9 but if it does that would be worth a look.

Plenty of choices - but don't be quick to dismiss the PM9 too.

[Socrates]

The Kahr is nice, but, it's so close, weight wise, to my Kimber Ultra Carry II, that it wasn't in the running. I will say it looks like an excellent value, with high quality parts, and it should cost a bit more.
If I want a 20 oz gun for carry, I'll go the extra 5 oz, and get an Ultra Carry II, Kimber, or any of the SA, guns that have excellent triggers, and 45 caliber.

The 360 PD is more like Half the weight, at 12 oz empty, of your Kahr. You'd never want to shoot .357 in it, but Corbon's self defense 125 grain HP 38+P, at 1150 fps out of a two inch, and, the DPX line, are both EXCELLENT self-defense rounds.
If you want any smaller then that, I like the Beretta Bobcat, in 22lr, which is very small, and near 12 oz., or .25 ACP.
But, that's just me, and, I can't own Keltecs around here, and many of your choices, thanks to the PRK.

S
PS The Patriot line seems about the same size, and cheaper, then your gun, and, it comes in a 20 oz 45.

[Alan Fud]

The ideal pocket gun is the Kel-Tec P3ATNot mine. Refused to chamber a round on it's own. Tried with all types of ammo and even a trip to the factory didn't help.

[MCgunner]

It is simply not true that revolvers are more dependable than autos. I have had lots of revolvers seize up their cylinder rotation during a practice shoot for one reason or another, totally disabling them. I am talking about Colts, Rugers and Smith & Wessons.

I've only had one malfunction of a revolver in my life, a firing pin snapped on a Rossi M971. Of course, it was a fatal malfunction, no rack, tap, bang with that one! But, then, I clean my guns after every range session. They don't have a chance to get any sort of buildup, lead, powder residue, whatever. Any gun requires cleaning, an auto especially!

I have plenty of 100% reliable autos, though, including my Kel Tec, so if you think autos aren't for you, fine. If you think all autos are junk just because you got one you couldn't make work, you're FOS. Revolvers make it out of factories that require fixing, too. Can't judge the make, much less the breed, on one example. If you buy a compact auto, especially a 9, and can't make it work, try a proper Weaver hold with enough hand pressure. IOW, quit limp wristing the thing.

[Zen21Tao]

Consider a Sig P239. I have one in 40S&W and absolutely love it. It uses single stack magazines so it too is rather skinny and very confortable for daily CCW. It also is an extremely accutate pistol.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7517/resizedsigp239photo7jd.jpg

[jehu]

Ultimate pocket carry= Rohrbaugh R9 9mm ( If you don't think you can aford it look deeper into the safe and get rid of some a that stuff you're not shootin). 2nd choice Colt Pocket 9 9mm. No offense but I have already been through the Kel-junk experiance :barf: and theres no reason to think that their new offering is going to be any better.:fire: :what:

[JohnKSa]

Ultimate pocket carry= Rohrbaugh R9 9mm ( If you don't think you can aford it look deeper into the safe and get rid of some a that stuff you're not shootin).I don't like them now because the locals are having trouble with them, and they are also really expensive.If he's not picking the PM9 due to price and availability issues, you can bet that the Rohrbaugh is off his list as well.

[Dr_2_B]

I agree with Toadman. The most adaptable part of the equation is your self. You can adapt very quickly to the slightly wider GLOCK, and confound 'em, they just WORK!

[qwik]

my pmp9 is a sweet shooter, and with a well made insidebelt holster it carries oh man sweet. throw in uncle mikes pocket holster,... dont leave home without it