Interesting article on Leverevolution ammo


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R.W.Dale
May 17, 2006, 11:00 PM
http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm

I ran across this whilst searching for actual velocities 170gr loads. I thought It was worth sharing.

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Cosmoline
May 17, 2006, 11:26 PM
I did a test out of a 26" Winchester with these a few weeks ago and posted the results here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=199063

Even out of that long of a barrel, the FPS' still didn't quite hit the 2400 mark, but they were close enough.

ArmandTanzarian
May 17, 2006, 11:46 PM
It seems to me that the LeverEvolution stuff is neat, but about 10% substance (increased performance), and 90% hype...

-First, the claims bandied about compare a 24" bbl (from the new rifle that goes with) with the Hornady stuff vs. old 20" bbls on traditional leverguns. So of course you can get more velocity out of a longer barrel -- by eliminating one of the primary advantages of a levergun - it's short and thus handy/balanced nature. Something I wouldn't do. And it's got nothing to do with the ammo. As you can see from that link, actual range results from the same rifle means that Hornady Levolution stuff is 113 fps less than advertised, and right in line with other ammo out there at the muzzle. It has to be, given the pressure specs of the cartridge, unless they just invented some new better powder (in which case this would benefit many cartridges, not just .30-30 and other levergun cartridges).

-Second, the pointy tips do improve BC somewhat, but not much - from .272 in federal fusion to .329 in the Hornady? Significant, but not overwhelming really; and it will make virutally NO difference at common hunting ranges anyway (out to 250 yards or so). Lookit, federal fusion is 1749 fps at 200 yards, and the hornady is just 1817? 7.3" drop vs. 7.0" drop for hornady at that range? C'mon. Yeah, it's superior to other stuff besides federal fusion, but that's a function of powder/loadings, not pointy tips/BC.

So, bottom line is that it by no means "adds 100 yards" to the useful range of the round. It might add 30-50 yards on its best day to the useful range. Still, and improvment is an improvement, and so I'm sure I'll buy some!

mondocomputerman
May 18, 2006, 01:21 AM
Good article. Thank you.

roscoe
May 18, 2006, 01:33 AM
unless they just invented some new better powder (in which case this would benefit many cartridges, not just .30-30 and other levergun cartridges).
I always just thought all 30-30 ammo was downloaded for fear of blowing up older guns. The case size cannot be the limiting factor - the .308 is not that much bigger. I assume they are figuring the actions cannot take more pressure.

R.W.Dale
May 18, 2006, 07:12 AM
I always just thought all 30-30 ammo was downloaded for fear of blowing up older guns. The case size cannot be the limiting factor - the .308 is not that much bigger. I assume they are figuring the actions cannot take more pressure.

I've loaded my share of 30-30 for bolt guns and single shots, When "hotrodding" this cartrige you usually run out of case capacity for more powder before you max out pressures.

StrikeEagle
May 18, 2006, 08:14 AM
I love the .30-30 and the short, fast guns that handle it. I'll try some of this new ammo, I'm sure. Understanding it's a lot more hype than substance, it's something new for an old favorite. :)

I've loaded my share of 30-30 for bolt guns and single shots, When "hotrodding" this cartrige you usually run out of case capacity for more powder before you max out pressures.


I used to reload a LOT of .30-30 as well. I still have the IMR data that lists a 4895 charge that's rather higher than that offered today. What was your safe max of this powder for a 170grn bullet, if I may ask?

StrikeEagle

qajaq59
May 18, 2006, 09:10 AM
Those bother me. Sooner or later someone who knows nothing about it will see one of us loading these soft spire points into our Winchesters and think he can do it with any spire point. I'm not sure those are really necessary? But they are here, so hopefully the message will get out to the novices.

Cosmoline
May 18, 2006, 04:53 PM
That's not the fault of Hornady or the bullets. If some idiot loads spitzers one on top of the other in a tube, then he has nobody to blame but himself. So the leverevolution appearance doesn't bother me anymore than the fact that a lot of people load spitzers in the .30-30 and load them in Savages, bolt actions, single actions or just put one in the chamber and one in the tube with no other cartridges.

As far as leverevolution, they do seem to favor the long bores. I've actually found the 26" '94 to be very handy in spite of its length. But I suspect the short barrel .30/30 carbines are not going to be able to pick up enough velocity or have enough accuracy to really make them worth while. Out of the long hexagonal barrel, I'm definately getting better accuracy than usual and very high FPS.

Also, I think they'll be even more useful out of the .444 or .45-70, and should help reduce the enormous POI shift between the hottest loads and the more tame loads. If you can load with buf bore and the leverlution in .45-70, they should have about the same POI out to 100 yards, with the leverlution hitting higher further out.

roscoe
May 18, 2006, 08:08 PM
I've loaded my share of 30-30 for bolt guns and single shots, When "hotrodding" this cartrige you usually run out of case capacity for more powder before you max out pressures.
So the case volume is significantly less on a 30-30 relative to a .308? Just eyeballing them, the 30-30 doesn't look that much smaller. When you consider that the .357 case can be loaded by Bufffalo Bore to get a 180 grain load going 1850 fps. The case volume on a 30-30 must be much much greater but 170 grain loads only get up to 2300 fps or so. I just can't figure it.

RuralTurtle
May 18, 2006, 08:23 PM
It is ironic they are coming out as the Winchester '94 is to be made no more. No?

Chipperman
May 18, 2006, 08:41 PM
That's ok, the Marlin is a better gun anyway.

<Duck and Cover>

RuralTurtle
May 18, 2006, 08:42 PM
Oh dear, I fear a M16 vs AK47, 9 vs 45, etc., etc. thread coming on! Run while you can ...:eek:

R.W.Dale
May 18, 2006, 09:10 PM
So the case volume is significantly less on a 30-30 relative to a .308? Just eyeballing them, the 30-30 doesn't look that much smaller. When you consider that the .357 case can be loaded by Bufffalo Bore to get a 180 grain load going 1850 fps. The case volume on a 30-30 must be much much greater but 170 grain loads only get up to 2300 fps or so. I just can't figure

30-30 wicchester has about 20% less case capacity than .308 win 37.8 grs of water vs 52.9 couple that with a drastaclly lower pressure rating for the 30-30

Max PSI for 30-30 42,000

Max PSI for .308 62,000

JohnKSa
May 18, 2006, 11:40 PM
Well, the article is a bit misleading in a couple of respects.

Hornady advertises the Leverevolution LINE of ammo as being "up to 250fps faster than competitors". It does NOT specifically claim the 30-30 ammo is 250 faster than competitors.

If you check out the numbers for the .35Remington Leverevolution ammo, you will see where this claim comes from.

It's also more than slightly nitpicky to complain about the muzzle velocity being less than advertised while at the same time admitting that you're testing in a gun with a barrel 4" shorter than the one that Hornady says they used to achieve the advertised numbers. Generally speaking, one can figure on about 20fps of velocity lost for each inch of barrel length reduction (which, btw, agrees perfectly with the velocity loss he notes in the next test using a 14" bbl). Using a correction factor of 80fps (20fps x 4") the Leverevolution is shooting about 33fps slower than advertised--well within the variance one might expect from one gun to another.

What's interesting is that the 160 gr 30-30 Leverevolution is about the same velocity or faster than the 150 gr competitors' ammo. If you look at what a 160gr 30-30 SHOULD be shooting, it becomes clear that the Leverevolution 30-30 is shooting about 100fps faster than what one would normally expect.

Duplicating that performance at SAAMI pressures will be very difficult--I believe Hornady is using their Light Magnum technology to make those gains.

Cosmoline
May 18, 2006, 11:53 PM
It is ironic they are coming out as the Winchester '94 is to be made no more. No?

From what I've heard, USRAC's jamchester '94's were selling very poorly before the New Haven plant closure. They're selling well *now*, but only on hype about their new rarity. That company hasn't made good '94's for a long time now. Marlin, OTOH, has been producing very good 336's. Though I hear their quality has started slumping in recent years.

Plus, there are probably 25 million .30-30 rifles still kicking around in North America. And an ammo that promises to bring new fire into their bellies may just encourage people to bring them out of the closet. IMHO anything that gets people off this fixation with magnums is good. It seems like the less people actually hunt, the more convinced they become that the old standards don't actually kill any game. Indeed I've noticed that, brown bear hunters aside, the more people hunt around here, the smaller their rifles are.

roscoe
May 19, 2006, 03:07 AM
Max PSI for 30-30 42,000

Max PSI for .308 62,000

Does that mean that Buffalo Bore is using higher pressure to get the .357 180 grainers to 1850fps? Is the rifle capable of more than it is loaded for?

Cosmoline
May 19, 2006, 03:34 AM
Certainly the 336 action can take a lot more than the SAAMI minimum for the .30-30. And the modern '94 action is quite strong, though not as strong as the Marlin. The '92 Win is actually stronger. But you're talking about a 110 year old cartridge, so they have to keep things reasonable. You can crank it up a notch with handloads and a modern rifle, but beyond a point there's really no need to.

roscoe
May 19, 2006, 04:17 AM
Yeah, it just seems like Buffalo Bore is willing to tell people not to use their ammo with old revolvers, but they won't ramp up the 30-30 for fear of blowing up some older rifles. Sure, we don't NEED hotter ammo - I could just use my 30-06, but it just seems like someone ought to try.

R.W.Dale
May 19, 2006, 07:07 AM
Somebody did try but nobody bought it. Look up .307 winchester

roscoe
May 19, 2006, 01:23 PM
Somebody did try but nobody bought it. Look up .307 winchester.
150 grains at 2760 fps! Now that's what I am talking about!

ArmandTanzarian
May 19, 2006, 01:43 PM
Also, I think they'll be even more useful out of the .444 or .45-70, and should help reduce the enormous POI shift between the hottest loads and the more tame loads.

That is a good point, Cosmo...

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