Blackpowder Handgun -- revolver or pistol?


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Tearlachblair
May 18, 2006, 12:05 AM
So here's my quandary:

In the world of blackpowder handguns, there is one basic choice you gotta make first -- do you want to buy a revolver or a single-shot pistol of the dueling, big-bore variety?

I had my heart set on revolvers till I saw this
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/lyman_plainpis.jpg

Ah! How am I supposed to resist that? 50 caliber?!?!?!

So I decided to take my question here -- I'm basically a beginner with limited experience in cleaning and disassembling. Which should I get first -- pistol or revolver?

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mec
May 18, 2006, 12:17 AM
The pistols are extremely accurate, easier to clean than revolvers and in the case of the lyman, very durable because of coil springs and quality parts. I started out prefering the pistols but found that revolvers have improved in quality and now am hung up on both.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40124&stc=1&d=1147922119
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40125&stc=1&d=1147921979
There it is right on the cover
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=29337&d=1127836661

Smokin_Gun
May 18, 2006, 01:14 AM
The first one I got was one a them, but...it was for my personna as a Mountain Man as that's what I was doin' at the time. Loved the Pistol but shot the Long gun more.
If you like shootin' period or have a love for the Old West and Civil War...I'd tell you like I would anyone else. Get an 1858 New Army Remington .44 for a first BP handgun, you won't be sorry. Then you'll probly want an 1860 Army Colt .44, and or an Colt 1851 Navy .36. The list of wishes can be endless...you can always buy a single shot muzzle stuffer later.
I have 3 differant Mfg. of them and like um all alot. I'm a 1858 Rem man who has more Colts than rems...Lol! Cause they are so dependable you only really need one...HeHe!
Please keep us posted on what you get and welcome to the BP Rev Club.
SG

kjeff50cal
May 18, 2006, 01:48 AM
Cause they are so dependable you only really need one...HeHe!


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40127&stc=1&d=1147927547

Now you tell me:D .

gmatov
May 18, 2006, 02:23 AM
OT, a little, but we now call a semi a pistol and a wheel gun a revolver.

Sam'l Colt patented his Paterson as a "Revolving Pistol". All the following models were called "pistols".

So, if you want to buy a pistol, I would say a Colt '51, for the .36 calibre, or a '60, for the .44 calibre, then the Rem 58 in .44, and follow with a Rem 58 in .36.

Not that the Colt is better, though I like them, just that breaking them down to clean and put back together is a little easier. And, of course, they just feel better, to my hand. And, they sure do look better. And they will, normally shoot more cylinders full before the cylinder binds up, though this can be overcome with a spray or squirt bottle of Windex or the like.

OT even a little more. Has anybody noticed that the auction prices of ALL the replicas is actually usually higher than the buy it new price, when you consider the 20 buck average shipping and handling??

Was looking for a 60 steel model, AA the prices are ridiculous, with near a week to go, Gunbroker no better.

Guess I gotta go to WVA next week, pick up a new one. Have a bite to eat on the way, make a day trip, seems like an outing rather than 3 gals of gas each way. Mebbe even have time to look the store over, last time there, was just to exchange a marred pistol. Bought caps, but did not spend time in the store. Would like to do that for a change.

Smoke,

Your ASP 44, was that the good one? Don't wanna go back a year to look up your comments on it. Did see one on a site, don't know if it is good enough for the price it is going at. Everybody always says they are at least 98 %, till you get them.

Cheers,

George

Smokin_Gun
May 18, 2006, 03:09 AM
Yup George my Asp (Now Name changed to Euroarms) I would say a real good one... most authentic in size and closer chamber/barrel dimensions. I got 3 Rem 1858's Uberti, Pietta, and ASP I like um all but the ASP is a little more authenic and a good shooter(frame size). You'd fare well with one.

Dr.Doug
May 18, 2006, 06:44 PM
Get both! They're cheap!

Doug

huli
May 18, 2006, 07:25 PM
Ive got a Euroarms 44, Excellent Condition, doesnt look to have been fired, I think its the 58 200.00 shipped to your door in all legal states.;)

Duncaninfrance
May 18, 2006, 07:30 PM
Depends how much noise and smoke you want to make :evil:
I have started with a Pietta 58 Remington New Model Army and love it. It shoots well, is easy to clean and I don't find it difficult to strip.
The real choice is which one first as you will be as hooked as the rest of us soon :)
Duncan

Chawbaccer
May 18, 2006, 09:07 PM
http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.com/images/53-16203.jpg

Traditions Buckhunter, I have a scope on mine and it will make a raged hole at 50 yards.

MCgunner
May 18, 2006, 11:32 PM
Everyone should treat themselves to a Ruger Old Army. All else comes later. Save up for that first purchase, unless you find one sitting in a gun shop in excellent condition for $97.50 because the guy wants out of black powder stuff, like I did....:D I swear, I couldn't open my wallet fast enough!

The Sicilian
May 18, 2006, 11:41 PM
Go for the 58' Remington, it's an excellent gun and I think it's beautiful! I bought and 1860 and I find the Remmy easier to load and less likely to jam, but I'm new compared to a lot of the people on this forum so I'm not your best bet for getting wisdom and knowledge concerning these guns.

I've already had a few problems with my 1860. After a few shots the clip that holds the loading lever popped off! Can you believe that? It really pissed me off. I banged it back on and it came off again after the first shot! I guess I'll have to call up the manufacturer and see what can be done about it. I'm almost tempted to ask for another 1858 as a replacement!

The 1860 was made by Pietta, maybe that accounts for the clip popping off, who knows? It really shouldn't have happened, at least in my opinion. When you buy a brand new firearm you expect it to perform well and stay in one piece when you fire it! This is the only Pietta I own and at this point it may be the last. I'm sure a few people here would probably disagree and they could be right. I might have just been unlucky and gotten a lemon, it can happen to anyone, even Uberti I suppose.

-mario.

gmatov
May 18, 2006, 11:49 PM
Not to run down your preference, but I was looking at a few at auction. Everybody has their own taste in everything, but I just find them downright ugly.

I know they're the hardest shooting, strongest BPs made, but they just don't appeal to me.

It's not a Ruger thing. I own a Super B 44 SS, 10 1/2 inch and think it is lovely, but that is a near perfect copy of a Colt 73, with many improvements.

And money is not it either. 400 is not that much money. Twice a 200 buck pietta, but still not even a mortgage payment for most folks.

Will admit that the loading lever and other parts will probably last 10 times as long as any Italian imports parts do, and springs probably longer.

Just not for me. And I don't want to sound magnanimous and say buy what ever you like, because it's not my place to tell you what you should like. I like what I like, I'm sure you are happy with what you like and have.

Cheers,

George

gmatov
May 19, 2006, 12:00 AM
Mario,

Do you mean the latch post that is dovetailed into the barrel or the latch itself, the spring loaded end catch? That dovetail should be tighter than the sight on your Rem. It's not made to be adjusted, your sight is.

Either way, if you bought this thing new, take or send it back. If you picked it up at a local Cabela's, take it back, and ask to inspect the one they give you in exchange. I took one back to a local (yeah, local, 56 miles each way) store, asked if I could inspect it, they said go right ahead. They do want to keep you happy. I don't know anybody better at trying to keep the customer happy, so he'll return.

The Rem, now, the latch post is welded, or soldered, into a pocket in the barrel. That can come off rather easily.

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 12:13 AM
George, no, not the spring loaded part on the tip of the lever, but the part that is doved(On the underside of the barrel) tailed and catches the spring loaded lever tip. The 1860's clip (the dovetailed piece) popped right off! I couldn't believe it! I bought it at a Bass Pro so I'm not sure they'll take it back or not. What do you think I should do? My Remmy has been rock solid, except for the front sight being off (I really need to move it so it shoots strait) a little bit.

-mario.

Gewehr98
May 19, 2006, 12:16 AM
OT, a little, but we now call a semi a pistol and a wheel gun a revolver.

The "we" above is a bit broad. Let's take that a smidgen further. If it's not a revolver, it can be classified as a pistol. Or even, a revolver is a subset of the pistol category. Case in point, I have a centerfire Wichita Silhouette Pistol, straight from the manufacturers. It's neither a revolver nor autoloader. ;)

http://mauser98.com/wichitarightplonk.jpg

gmatov
May 19, 2006, 04:20 AM
Gewehr,

Not to belabor the point, but the man did put it in his patent application, and it wa so called so for about 70 years, from 1836 on. THEN, the semis came into being, and the hoi poloi, the semi snobs decided THEY were pistols, them OLD things were relegated to being revolvers.

Technically, the revolving pistol is just that, a pistol, your machine is a semi-automatic pistol. Your own is a single shot pistol, a one hand held firearm. All one hand fired weapons are pistols.

So where's the beef?

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 05:46 AM
Interesting,

I was always curious whether or not "pistol" was proper or not when speaking of these old guns. I prefer to say revolver, which I imagine is exceptable. I always considered the modern automatics just handguns, nothing more, nothing less. I always reserved using Pistol or Revolver for firearms with a special character or beauty that most modern handguns just don't possess (In my opinion). There are a few exceptions like the Luger and the 1911, which really began the transition from revolvers to automatics. I'm not saying you can't find a modern "pistol" with that intrinsic beauty which the Colts and Remingtons possess, only that they seem to be few and far between.

-mario.

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 05:48 AM
Does anyone know the etymology of the word "Pistol"?:confused:

-mario.

Duncaninfrance
May 19, 2006, 08:00 AM
pistol
noun a small firearm designed to be held in one hand.

ORIGIN
C16: from obsolete French pistole, from German Pistole, from Czech pist'ala, originally in sense 'whistle', hence 'a firearm' by the resemblance in shape.

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary.
Duncan

Smokin_Gun
May 19, 2006, 09:11 AM
Would you say the Auto Pistol resembles the Revolver in shape? Then you must define resembles, and shape, then one's opinion...cause only in my opinion an auto loader and a Revolver don't resemble each other in shape.
Guess if we call um Auto Pistols and Revolving Pistols we'll be in good "shape".


"Devil's Advocate":evil:

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 12:34 PM
Thanks Duncan, I knew you old guys were good for something :neener: I think the etymology classifies both auto's and revolvers as pistols, also single shots. The shape is pretty simple so I don't think we need to go too far in debating shape. What would you call a semi-auto if not a pistol? I figure "handgun" might be the only decent word to use if you don't want to call it a pistol.

-mario.

mec
May 19, 2006, 03:29 PM
Thirty to forty years ago it was a big debate in the gun magazines. they would tell you emphatically that "Pistol" comes from the town in Italy-Pistoia where the first one was made. More recently other things have come up like any side arm-including poniardds and bodkins was called a pistol way back in the past. The gunwriters emphasized that Pistols have to have a contiguous chamber and barrel . Revolvers don't have that so anybody who calls them a "pistol" is a ass, a idiot. As it turns out, the gunwriters were "a ass, a idiot" because colt had called his early efforts "Revolving Pistols."

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 03:48 PM
It takes all sort to make the world go round mec. By the way, nice shooting with that "Pistol", especially at 50 yards...impressive! Some of those gun writers are *******s (Not you, of course :D ) I read the article about your book on Gunblast.com, seems like you and you're buddy wrote a keeper and a classic on Black powder firearms. Sheesh! I hope I'm allowed to call them "Firearms", even if the Federalies don't think so. I'll get around to buying a copy at some point.

-mario.

mec
May 19, 2006, 04:25 PM
That is not my worst 50 yard group. In fact, its about as good as I expect shooting sitting down with the gun rested over my knees.

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 04:36 PM
Awe Mec!!! Come on! Tell me you're fooling around! You shot those groups duelist, while blindfolded and smoking a cigarette, singing the national anthem and signing your soul away to the devil! :D

-mario.

mec
May 19, 2006, 05:02 PM
Awe Mec!!! Come on! Tell me you're fooling around! You shot those groups duelist,-YEP while blindfolded NOPE-1.25 DIOPTER READING GLASSES and smoking a cigarette (Pipe), singing the national anthem ROLL ME OVER IN THE CLOVER and signing your soul away to the devil- THE DIVIL FAR BEHIND ME WALLOWING IN HIS OWN IXCREMENT

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 05:08 PM
Pretty good response old timer. Did you really bench it? By the way, maybe you can help me make up my mind. I'm gonna buy a Ruger Old Army. The problem is the decision- I could buy the target model which is used but in excellent condition and from the 70's, or I could buy a fixed site version (both 7-1/2 barrels) brand new in the box and for fifty dollars cheaper. I really want the target after having bad luck with my 1858's front site not moving, but is the ruger Old Armies fixed sight model as accurate as the Target model? Why but the target over the fixed sightl? what's the advantage that I'm not thinking about besides having another problem like I had with my 1858 Uberti? :confused:

-mario.

mec
May 19, 2006, 05:34 PM
the target is the one I have. The fixed sights came along just to let gamesmen shoot modern revolvers in the CAS shoots. I'm all for having the adj. sight option on these revolvers.

the only thing I used the bench for was to hold all my gear.

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 06:55 PM
Now your talking! That's what a bench is for! I guess you've helped me make up my mind. I think I'm going for the Ruger Old Army Target model. I almost feel like the brand new one is just too good to be true, maybe it's a scam? Either way I was already compromising by getting the blued version over the stainless, I don't want to trade down again by getting fixed sights. I just hope the used one is as good as the guy says it is. I still have to ask him a few more questions about it. I know this much, it doesn't come with the case and I think he doesn't have the nipple wrench with it either. I'll have to make sure, but for the price, it's a good deal - $345.00 bucks! What do you think mec? Oh yeah, it does come with a gun sock...better than nothing I guess.

-mario.

mec
May 19, 2006, 07:15 PM
You should find it very satisfactory as long as you use .457 balls or the same diameter lee conical bullet moulds. Smaller ones will definately walk forward under recoil. You might even think about getting some standard nipples (Track of the wolf?????) that will fit a regular nipple wrench. the oddball nipples on the ruger are the only real flaw in the design. Get them a little stuck and the hex or sext or w hatever shoulders round off and then the ruger wrench won't even work on them.

By the way, My Dad was an honorary citizen of Sicily. Found the papers in his navy box. At that time, there was talk about Sicily applying for Statehood. Might have done it too if the Communists had won the election.

The Sicilian
May 19, 2006, 08:00 PM
Mec,

The beat thing is the guy doesn't have the nipple wrench with it so I'll have to buy one from Ruger - they're only $3.75 each, very reasonable for a wrench. Maybe they'll send me one for free when I ask for the owners manual, you never know?
If that's the only weakness in their design I'll be very happy with the Old Army. I wonder why they decided to call it "Old Army" in the first place mec? What nipples will fit the Ruger, do they make new ones especially for it or do some of the replica gun nipples fit it? The only thing that worries me is the age of the gun. As long as it was well cared for shouldn't the barrel/rifling be as good as when it was first shot? I hope so, if not maybe I should just buy the other one?

If these Rugers are built as strong as everyone says they are then it should be a good shooter, don't you think? Can you tell I'm a little worried mec? If you charged me a dollar a question you'd be rich by now! :D I'm just sick of all the bad luck I seem to have with things. I don't want it to transfer over to the Ruger I'm buying. I should get it by this next Thursday coming up, as long as I mail the Postal check off tomorrow morning. I'd love it if it came in Thursday morning, that way I won't have to miss my weekly shooting date. I try and go every Thursday and Sunday. I figure if I shoot two times a week I'll be a good shot in no time. I usually stay at the range for around eight hours or so. It's a nice place to shoot and there aren't any range nazi's breathing down your neck either. I just like the idea of shooting outdoors with the sky and the trees, makes for a much better time. Hell! two weeks ago I heard a dog barking in the distance, next thing you know a fox runs across the range...a few moments later a little old hound dog beagle mix comes running across the range about five or six seconds behind the fox. What a sight! Somethin you'd never see at an indoor range, that's for sure.

Are you serious about that Sicily thing? that's very interesting. How in the hell could Sicily ever ask to become part of the United States though? What did your father do to become an honorary citizen of Sicily? They may have done it if the Communists HADN'T won the election? Is that what you meant? When was this, before or after the war? I thought Italy went Democratic after WWII, so I guess it was before WWII when they went Fascist or Communist. Please correct me if my guess work is wrong.

-mario.

MCgunner
May 19, 2006, 08:17 PM
Not to run down your preference, but I was looking at a few at auction. Everybody has their own taste in everything, but I just find them downright ugly.

I know they're the hardest shooting, strongest BPs made, but they just don't appeal to me.

It's not a Ruger thing. I own a Super B 44 SS, 10 1/2 inch and think it is lovely, but that is a near perfect copy of a Colt 73, with many improvements.

Whether you thing it's pretty or not, show me another black powder revolver that works as well, is as accurate, and has as much potential for field use as the Ruger Old Army. They're not for looking at, they're for shooting.;) However, I like its looks a lot, too.

gmatov
May 20, 2006, 05:09 AM
McGunner,

To each his own, as the lady said as she kissed the cow's behind.

You like the look, I don't, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Mec, Dusty Springfield, Roll Me Over IN The Clover And DO It Again? You rotten old man. You don't look that old in your book. That's at least 50 years old!

Etymology be damned, if you are the first, anything else has to be a subset. If Sam'l Colt patented the name "revolving pistol" then any firearm that came along after would be a subset. A "Single Shot Pistol", a "Semi-Automatic Pistol", hell, a "Laser Pistol" if it gets to that. They are all one hand shooting instruments, and to declare that YOUR gun is THE pistol is ridiculous. COlt named it in his patent, and that SHOULD settle it, but of course it won't.

The fact that most other countries did not, to the best of my knowledge, have a name for any other mechanical means of firing a "pistol" may have something to do with it, though everybody everywhere did make a revolving pistol type weapon.

Aw, well, It does not really matter, you wanna call it a GUN, go right ahead.

Cheers,

George

Steve499
May 20, 2006, 09:58 AM
I was traumitized away from the gun word in basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, basic training in 1969! Prior to that, I used it rather promiscuously. Still, today, if it slips out, I still feel a little like I just cussed at the dinner table with my Mother and Grandmother both sitting on either side of me. I don't mind others using it, mind you, and George, it is probably the only really acceptable compromise. It's just that it makes me feel so....DIRTY.



Steve

Duncaninfrance
May 20, 2006, 10:25 AM
Hey there mario - not so much of the OLD!!! I happen to be 56! ( But have lived well )
Duncan

The Sicilian
May 20, 2006, 11:15 AM
Wow! 56? Were you with Cornwallace during the Revolution? :D

Duncaninfrance
May 20, 2006, 01:37 PM
I STARTEDthe revolution!!
Duncan

The Sicilian
May 20, 2006, 08:03 PM
I knew you were an American at heart! When you moven back home and away from all those Frenchy's! :D Hell! If I had the money I'd be right there with you - pretty french girls, good food, good wine, and you can store your black powder in your underwear if ya want! :what:

-mario.

huli
May 20, 2006, 08:14 PM
If anybody is interested I have a pair of 1858 Rems, that i would trade for one Ruger, I know this is not the right place to post this,but on the for sale categorys are all modern firearms, and yall were talking about the ruger. Thanks Steve

gmatov
May 20, 2006, 09:31 PM
Steve 499,

"This is my "pistoll" (rifle), this is my gun, this is for killing, this is for fun."

Is that what you mean? Parris Island had the same treatment for recruits who slipped up.

Try this Wiki page for an answer to pistol. as good as any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol

Cheers,

George

The Sicilian
May 20, 2006, 09:56 PM
You may as well throw in a third 58' if you want a Ruger. Maybe you could get a good trade on GunsAmerica.com? Most of the guys posting on there are dealers anyway. A dealer will trade quick if he thinks he can make a little bit more money off the trade. I've seen 58's and all of the BP revolvers going for more money than you can buy them new! I think George said the same thing! They probably talk people into buying them over price all of the time, talk all that Civil war crap and such. Most newbies would fall for the line fairly quick.

-mario.

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