#2 lead?

[Pumpkinheaver]

I have a question on home defence loads for a 12 gauge shotgun. How do 1 1/4 oz lead #2 birdshot stack up for close range self defense? I generally keep 00 buckshot around for this purpose but have been thinking about the potential for harm to my neighbors from stray pellets.

[Okiecruffler]

At most home defense ranges, the BG would be hard pressed to tell the difference. I've gotten into the habit of loading mine with 4's and keep a couple of OOO rounds close by incase I have to go outside.

[kudu]

#2's is the load I like for coyote hunting out to 50+ yards it will penetrate a coyote up to 3-4". These are 1.5oz loads, but the velocity is the same. Like Okie, I generaly keep 4's or 2's in my shotty with a slug or buck nearby.

[redneck2]

I had a friend that worked on a cattle ranch in Colorado. They used diseased cattle that had to be put down as shotgun experiments (bear defense). He claimed the most devastating load at 10 feet was mag #2's. He said it was better than buckshot at very short ranges.
#2's is the load I like for coyote hunting out to 50+ yards it will penetrate a coyote up to 3-4". We used #2's for fox loads when I was a kid. If it will penetrate 4" at 50 yards, think what it would do at 10-15 feet

[Kingcreek]

My home varmint control hardware (870 loaded w 6 shells) is the same for 2 legged as 4. I have some 3" #2 loads in first, followed by a couple OO buck.
I have much better results killing a coon or coyote from 10 to 50 yards with #2. inside 10 yards is pretty much all the same regardless of what is in the pipe. OO hits hard if it hits, but the pattern is patchy sometimes with coon sized holes in it. #2 lead is dense and lethal. (#2 hevishot is even better)

[Pumpkinheaver]

I thought they world work well but I just wanted other opinions. Thanks.

[ball3006]

I use #2s in the right barrel and #1 buck in the left barrel. The stock ammo sleeve has 2 OO and 3 slug......chris3

[Lou629]

I've gone a slightly different route. I've always had different buckshot options for HD available such as 00, #1, & #4, but i have added a couple boxes of BB & BBB shot to the personal ammo supply as well.
I figure that at an 'average' HD range of 15 feet or so, this will more than get the job done, and anything out to about 15-20 yards is going to be having a very bad day if it gets hit with this.
Another plus for the B size loads is that a box of 25 of these can be had locally for a regular price that's under $10 a box, whereas the 'normal' price averages $3 or more for five rounds of buckshot around here.

[ARTiger]

Just get some HeviShot high velocity waterfowl loads. (HeviShot is heavier than lead and penetrates better.) I'd suggest 3" #2's or BB. Remington has loads like that which range over 1550 fps. With a full choke at a range inside 15 yards, that'd leave a huge hole in most anything.

[Pumpkinheaver]

The only problem with 3" mags is the recoil. I've got som #4 and #5 turkey loads but my auto doesn't weigh much over 6 pounds and it's recoil operated. 3 inch mags hurt, now I'm not a wimp but at living room distances I truely think 2 3/4 inch loads will work fine.

[lbmii]

Fellow High Roader "BrobeeBiter" has done extensive testing and created a very good web site:

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/bird_2_rem_express/bird_2_rem_express.html

[mountainclmbr]

Don't want to get this thread closed down, as I seem poison lately. But, in a moderate sized house the #2 should be fine. There is no perfect solution for every problem. The #2 will handle most problems under 20 yards.

[Lou629]

WOW...I just saw the results of the ballistic gelatin tests posted above. While i would tend to believe that 9-1/2" of penetration should be more than adequate for "social work" but since the testing range was only 3 yards...nine feet!....i would have thought it would have done a much nastier job on the gelatin, that's for sure. The fact that the test resulted in a "no-go" recommendation for the #2 shot, except at across-the-room distances, has me second-guessing my own ideas about the capabilities of the BB & BBB loads. I think i'll go back to loading #4 buck in the HD shotty for awhile & keep the B loads for hunting or emergency backups should i ever need them if buckshot was not available.

[only1asterisk]

If overpenetration is of concern to you, then #2 or BB loads may be one answer. BrobeeBiter's page for the BB load is here. (http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/bird_bb_remington_lead/gelatin_birdshot_rem_bb_lead.html) Remember to look at the calibration velocity and depth when considering the results. Also, the listed average penetration is not an average of the maximum penetration of multiple shots. It is the average of penetration of individual pieces of shot from one load.

All things considered, if you are looking for a compromise load that will maintain maximum effectiveness while reducing risk from overpenetration or outright misses, lead BB loads strike a great balance.


David

[Mannlicher]

I would worry first about being able to get the bad guy to stop being bad. Then I would worry about the neighbors. There are better ways to do this than with #2 shot.

[only1asterisk]

I would worry first about being able to get the bad guy to stop being bad. Then I would worry about the neighbors.

That's a valid point of view, but not the only one. Some people have different circumstances that demand they consider other factors.

There are better ways to do this than with #2 shot.

I would tend to agree with you, but I doubt I would state it like this without supporting data.

David

[The-Fly]

smallest shot size you should use for defence in a shotgun would be #4 buck IMHO. I use 00B myself in my 870.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

[Dave McCracken]

I doubt there's a universal best choice for HD. 00 is the most common, and has an excellent track record.

A story has come through the grapevine about an elderly couple in Narwleans. All they had in the way of firearms was a Mossberg pump 410 and some target loads. When a couple looters kicked in the door and invaded their house, a center mass shot each at 10 feet stopped them cold.

We ALL need to study our use environments and use only loads that we have determined to be effective and safe there.

[azflyman]

At 10 or 15 feet it would not make a rat's behind what you hit a BG with. If there is a barrel attached and you shoot center mass the shear energy will put them down. 1 1/8 oz @ 1100fps is no joke. Even if the shot did not penetrate at all just the blunt trauma is a killer. This is like being hit with two .45 acp rounds at the same instant, except the shot will be moving 25% faster. :what: None for me thanks, even if it is #9.

az

[Lee Lapin]

Most shotgun shootings for which there is reported data are law enforcement use of force. Since most police agencies issue 00 buckshot, there is more data for this shot size than any other. Not necessarily publicly available data, but data nonetheless.

The house guns here (12 ga. Remington 870s) have 00 buck (Hornady TAP, red) in the magazines and slugs (Kent/Brenneke KO) in the sidesaddles. OPMMV (other peoples' mileage may vary).

In attempting to kinetically dissuade any hominid from continuing a selected course of action with which you take significant issue, you have two main factors to consider- placement and penetration. That is the case no matter what platform the projectiles are launched from, or what the projectiles are made of, or how big they might be, or how fast they might be going. It essentially boils down to placement and penetration. You must be able to direct the projectiles to some place vital, and the projectiles have to have sufficient penetration to get to vital areas. There's no magic involved.

I have seen firsthand the results of shotgun shootings at close range, while responding to calls in the field as an EMT/ambulance attedant. It is true that birdshot of any size and charge weight _can_ be lethal.

It is also true that buckshot and even slugs have failed to penetrate normal clothing on occasion.

But the odds are with larger, heavier projectiles being able to penetrate deeper. I'll stick with the odds on this one. YMMV of course.

lpl/nc

Edited to add: Took me a bit to dig this back up, but give the following case history a read- and note the shot size used: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .