Gangbangers in gun stores?


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IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 12:28 PM
Hey everyone, new member here.

Was wondering your thoughts on this:

I visit gunshops here in Denver pretty often, and about 1/4 of the time, I'll see someone there who *really* looks like he's, shall we say, looking for a gun for other reasons then plinking at the range.

Do you experience this as well? I have seen shop owners display all manners of responses to these guys who want to buy 3 Glocks, then call someone on a cell phone to come fill out the form, then call someone else on the cell phone to come bring the cash down to the store.

Just kinda wondering what you guys think of this phenomon and if you have any interesting stories...

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HighVelocity
December 30, 2005, 12:39 PM
While I have not witnessed this I don't think my local shop would tolerate this behavior and feel confident that this "type" of individual would be directed to the exit fairly quickly WITHOUT making a purchase.

Texfire
December 30, 2005, 12:42 PM
Sounds like it meets the exact definition of straw purchase. If they are going to break the law they should at least be smarter about it. Of course if they weren't dumb they wouldn't be criminals.

Tex

spacemanspiff
December 30, 2005, 12:42 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:

Myself
December 30, 2005, 12:47 PM
The shops I frequent have no problem throwing someone out who evens hints at a straw purchase. In one store where there are a lot of "kids" they throw out anyone who can't prove there 21.

HighVelocity
December 30, 2005, 12:48 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:


Nobody made any comments about race. The guy could be green, blue or orange. It's the behavior that's in question.

IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 01:26 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:

Um...explain? I didn't say they weren't white...why did you assume that a straw purchasing gangbanger-looking guy must be non-white?

Phaetos
December 30, 2005, 01:28 PM
I have seen quite a few like that. When I was at my CCW class, I saw 2 in the same day. I really wish the owners woulda just kicked them out, but they are greedy SOB's and wanted the cash they were fixing to get. Yes cash for this ... 1st two guys standing at the end of the counter, wife-beater shirts, pants to their knees, $200 tennis shoes, etc. I look over the railing and see a shotgun, a rifle, a giant handgun box when opened to reveal a tiger-stripe Desert Eagle(yes tiger-stripe) 10 boxes of various ammo and the guy behind the counter was going to get MORE. I didn't stick around to see what else was fixing to be used in a gang shooting or at the local rob-and-go. One guy was on the phone to someone, the other was salivating at the mouth while he pulled out WADS, I mean huge ass ROLLS of bills to pay cash for all this. Now the DE it self was $2000 in that store. Later that day the 2nd episode. A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one. Yeh, the store it overpriced horribly.

yonderway
December 30, 2005, 01:37 PM
The strawman purchases are BS and those punks should be kicked out of the store.

As for the others, they have the RKBA as much as you & me. What you're citing is just my justification for needing a MAK-90.

mrmeval
December 30, 2005, 01:41 PM
You'll listen to them blow hard as this attitude is used to tighten up the collar on their own necks a bit more.

yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:

middy
December 30, 2005, 01:43 PM
A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one.
Your first example was a good one, but I don't see the problem with the kid. :confused:

IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 01:47 PM
I have seen quite a few like that. When I was at my CCW class, I saw 2 in the same day. I really wish the owners woulda just kicked them out, but they are greedy SOB's and wanted the cash they were fixing to get. Yes cash for this ... 1st two guys standing at the end of the counter, wife-beater shirts, pants to their knees, $200 tennis shoes, etc. I look over the railing and see a shotgun, a rifle, a giant handgun box when opened to reveal a tiger-stripe Desert Eagle(yes tiger-stripe) 10 boxes of various ammo and the guy behind the counter was going to get MORE. I didn't stick around to see what else was fixing to be used in a gang shooting or at the local rob-and-go. One guy was on the phone to someone, the other was salivating at the mouth while he pulled out WADS, I mean huge ass ROLLS of bills to pay cash for all this. Now the DE it self was $2000 in that store. Later that day the 2nd episode. A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one. Yeh, the store it overpriced horribly.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean...you gotta wonder, why isn't the owner just asking them to leave? I guess it's nice for them to get a huge wad of cash but it certainly makes me nervous. Maybe they are just buying guns with cash because they have bad credit or whatever...I like to give the benefit of the doubt, but I did not walk out of that store thinking safer.

Once I was at a designated range in the mountains and an SUV showed up with 3 people that fit your exact description. They pulled out several AK's and promptly began shooting at a 45 angle up in the air :eek: and just recklessly spraying bullets all over. Needless to say, we got outta there ASAP to call the sheriff, but we didn't get into cell range for 20 minutes and by then they were gone. :mad:

It burns me up to see these people with no concept of safety or responsibility needlessly risking peoples lives for fun.

Working Man
December 30, 2005, 02:01 PM
I see it a lot at the shows.

I saw a guy looking at an AK style rifle then go talk to his girl (I guess) and
walk off. Latter that day I saw her at a table buying the same style while
he was about 5 ft away. It may have been legit :rolleyes: but it sure looked
shady and he really looked the part.

dasmi
December 30, 2005, 02:02 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:
Hmm...If I recall, spiff isn't white :)

grnzbra
December 30, 2005, 02:04 PM
Perhaps they were ATF agents trying to entrap the store owner into participating an a straw purchase.:evil:

TrekkieFromHell
December 30, 2005, 02:07 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:
----------------------------------------

Nobody made any comments about race. The guy could be green, blue or orange. It's the behavior that's in question.

Um...explain? I didn't say they weren't white...why did you assume that a straw purchasing gangbanger-looking guy must be non-white?


Based on the type of face spacemanspiff put, I think he was being more sarcastic than anything. You know, making fun of how a lot of racists out there blame anyone who isn't white for everything wrong in the world.

spacemanspiff
December 30, 2005, 02:10 PM
I didn't say they weren't white...why did you assume that a straw purchasing gangbanger-looking guy must be non-white?
what? were not talking about making assumptions about a person based upon outward appearances here?

the first post to this thread began with customers who, and i quote, "*really* looks like he's, shall we say, looking for a gun for other reasons then plinking at the range. "

the next sentence describes a straw purchase, which any self respecting law abiding shop owner will refuse. but the first one indicates that a person will be judged to have nefarious reasons for being in the gunshop, without having said a word.

i figured i'd throw out some bait and see if there were any bigoted motives behind this threads being posted in the first place. if there was none, i apologize.

Guy B. Meredith
December 30, 2005, 02:14 PM
Individuals who strongly fit the gang banger stereotype sometimes line up two rows deep at the counter at Trader's in San Leandro. Hard to get a peek into the showcases.

Despite their huge "Whatever % off" signs their prices are not doing anyone a favor so the banger types aren't going after that. Hopefully they are a large enough outfit to be looking out for illegal purchases.

I would quickly put a word in to law enforcement if I had any idea that straw purchases were going down.

longrifleman
December 30, 2005, 02:26 PM
I have a question for any store owners/employees. If you see something like this going on, do you have someone go in the back room and hit BATFE on the speed dial? If so, what is their attitude about having a visit with the new owners?

I know you have the right to refuse to sell, but I've always thought it was very unfair to force store owners to essentially become un-paid agents for the ATF.

armoredman
December 30, 2005, 02:26 PM
Sampei, spam elsewhere, please.
As for gangbangers, I have had many of them in the shop I worked at, and they drooled, and left without buying. I wouldn't allow them to handle a firearm without ID under the kids/guns law, and 99% of them wanted NOTHING to do with giving me an ID. The one that almost made it we caught, (two of us noticing at the same time), that it was a straw purchase, and kicked them both out. A few bucks on a sale won't pay for A) court fees, )B lost FFL/business, C) families' bills while incarcerated...

The ones that blew me away were the ones who would come in a group, with a wave of pot smoke and/or alcohol pushing in front of them, and want to use the range/rent guns. One guy asked me if he rented a gun, when would he have to bring it back!!!!!

grimjaw
December 30, 2005, 02:28 PM
i figured i'd throw out some bait and see if there were any bigoted motives behind this threads being posted in the first place. if there was none, i apologize.

Crude, perhaps, but given the number of trolls I've seen lately, not necessarily unwarranted. It might have been worded differently so those of us who endeavor not to be bigots wouldn't have mistaken it for other bait.

If it was as obvious to the store owner as it was to the poster that this was in fact a straw purchase, he should have refused the sale. Since I was not there, I can't judge.

As far as how the people looked ("gangbanger"): I might think some appearances are silly (especially that spiked-gel hair thing all you guys do nowadays, sheesh, stop primping), but that is not the best judge of character or intent.

Also, note the reaction from this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172842) about a man prohibited from buying firearms but using one to protect himself.

jmm

White Horseradish
December 30, 2005, 02:34 PM
Later that day the 2nd episode. A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one.

Ummm... If people were thrown out for being too happy with a new gun, I think I would have never been able to buy any... I was very excited to buy my first rifle. What's wrong with that?

V4Vendetta
December 30, 2005, 02:39 PM
"A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one. "

What's wrong with being excited? I'm probably gonna jump around when I get my first gun. Your first example was good though.

Cousin Mike
December 30, 2005, 02:40 PM
As for the topic of the thread, yes, I have noticed shady types looking around in gun stores. I guess the only question I have for Iceberg Dave is what constitutes someone looking like a gangbanger to you? If it's baggy jeans, T-shirts and expensive sneakers, that's almost anyone under 30 who isn't at work - and IMO not very indicative of someone's personality. Also, living and doing my gun shopping in a city of around 800,000 I tend to notice those types a lot less than some guy in a flannel with a confederate flag in his truck chewing tobacco, which I also happen to see a lot in gun stores around here.

Both types are often some of the nicest people I have ever met, FWIW.

countertop
December 30, 2005, 02:45 PM
Paying In Cash

my father who as far as I know has never broken a law in all his life (he is tooooo goood) walks around with a huge bankroll on him. He goes to the bank once every two or three weeks to get cash out and then uses that. He always has. I've got nothing wrong with people paying in cash - in fact I think it makes for much more sound fiscal policy and wish I would as well. We would all be better off if we learned to use wads of cash more and credit/debit cards less.

Jumping Up And Down

Shouldn't we all be thrilled that a kid is excited about a new gun? Especially a Bushmaster? Who The Heck are you to judge how excited a 19 year old should be about getting a rifle? For that matter, what the heck is the APPROPRIATE level of excitment for purchasing a great new rifle? I get so giddy every time i get a gun I usually RUN not walk right out of the store and straight to the range, and I am 35. When I was 18, my dad purchased a Porsche 911 and just showed up with it at home one day. I could barely walk I was so bursting with adrenaline and joy over it. Was that TOO excited? perhaps, but so what?????

Girfirend Purchasing Rifle

Is it a straw purchase??? Just cause the guy dresses a certain way (which happens to be how large numbers of people dress)???? My wife has purchased stuff for me before as a gift. Usually, she doesn't know what exactly it is that I want, so on numerous occaisions I have taken her to stores, etc with me and pointed out exactly what I wanted. She then would go and purchase my gift for me. I happen to do the same thing with her when I get china and other chick stuff? Are those straw purchases? NOPE! You can purchase a gun as a gift for someone without any problem because the buyer IS THE PURCHASER!

1911JMB
December 30, 2005, 02:49 PM
I live near detroit. Nobody is stupid enough to have a gun store in detroit, so detroiter's come into the suberbs to buy guns. Of course, many gangbangers will buy illegal guns from crack houses in detroit, but you still see a lot of real idiot gang bangers coming from detroit to suberbian gun stores when you go to any gun shop in the surrounding cities.

Taurus 66
December 30, 2005, 02:52 PM
Why would a gangbanger be buying firearms from a gun shop? Is it so he can do his next drive by without a guilty conscience? Aren't guns on the street sold cheaper?

My only guess is he is not what he appears to be.

BUBBA74
December 30, 2005, 03:01 PM
Paying In Cash

my father who as far as I know has never broken a law in all his life (he is tooooo goood) walks around with a huge bankroll on him. He goes to the bank once every two or three weeks to get cash out and then uses that. He always has. I've got nothing wrong with people paying in cash - in fact I think it makes for much more sound fiscal policy and wish I would as well. We would all be better off if we learned to use wads of cash more and credit/debit cards less.

Jumping Up And Down

Shouldn't we all be thrilled that a kid is excited about a new gun? Especially a Bushmaster? Who The Heck are you to judge how excited a 19 year old should be about getting a rifle? For that matter, what the heck is the APPROPRIATE level of excitment for purchasing a great new rifle? I get so giddy every time i get a gun I usually RUN not walk right out of the store and straight to the range, and I am 35. When I was 18, my dad purchased a Porsche 911 and just showed up with it at home one day. I could barely walk I was so bursting with adrenaline and joy over it. Was that TOO excited? perhaps, but so what?????

Girfirend Purchasing Rifle

Is it a straw purchase??? Just cause the guy dresses a certain way (which happens to be how large numbers of people dress)???? My wife has purchased stuff for me before as a gift. Usually, she doesn't know what exactly it is that I want, so on numerous occaisions I have taken her to stores, etc with me and pointed out exactly what I wanted. She then would go and purchase my gift for me. I happen to do the same thing with her when I get china and other chick stuff? Are those straw purchases? NOPE! You can purchase a gun as a gift for someone without any problem because the buyer IS THE PURCHASER!

Here! Here!

Old Dog
December 30, 2005, 03:08 PM
Couple things. First, given the proclivity of a high percentage of young people today to dress in the hip-hop style, I question the ability of many here to actually determine whether or not someone is a for-real "gang-banger."

Now, if the young person in question is throwing gang signs at his compatriots in the store, or sporting obvious tattoos (teardrops under the eye, gang numbers/symbols) proclaiming he's in the life ... and you recognize these signs, fine ...

Why does it seem to me as though so many of us judge young people based solely on appearance or dress? (Granted, we surely were better dressed, color-coordinated and wore pants and shirts that actually fit when we were all young dudes in the '70s ... but, sheesh ...)

I was at a gunshop in the greater Puget Sound area with a buddy (happens to be Asian) and his 22-year-old son (who looks about 18, sports some tats) who had recently returned from Iraq (where he'd vacationed for a year with the rest of his posse in friendly downtown Baghdad) ... Son gets many, many evil looks from the clerks behind the counter ... then he's totally ignored after indicating he wants to look at a rifle ... then the clerk rudely cards him and grudgingly lets him examine the rifle ... then buddy and I (both of us clearly career military) wander over and make it clear to the clerk that we're with the young man ... clerk displays most sheepish behavior, particularly when we start debating optics we used on our M-16s during our most recent deployments ... Point is, my friend's son could be -- and was, in this instance -- mistaken for a "gansta" based on his dress, age, ethnicity, etc., but he's a fine young man who who just happens to share his peer group's taste in attire and body art ...

Another thing -- some here seem to presume a willingness on the part of gangbangers (who are likely to be engaging in future criminal actitity) to buy their weapons of choice over the counter at gun dealers ... jumping through the BATFE, NICS and whatever state's requirements are ... Many gangbangers (I'd surmise) are already prohibited from buying legally due to previous convictions, and finally -- this is just a guess now -- one would think most gang members using firearms in the commission of crimes (or even for "personal protection" though no doubt carried sans permit) are using either stolen firearms or guns bought off the street ...

Lastly, I always, always pay cash for my firearms (even the expensive ones).

EmGeeGeorge
December 30, 2005, 03:09 PM
I've been at gun shows where folks were showing off aryan ink... some of them worry me a little more when they buy a bushmaster then give me and my wife dirty looks (we're not of the same ethnicity)...

IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 03:15 PM
As a side note, I didn't want to cause a brou-ha-ha over judging people by their appearance. I was asking about the general idea of straw purchases and (seemingly) shady purchasers.

I didn't say the person was wearing hip-hop clothes. I said that it appeared to me (and yes, I think that every single person makes certain assumptions based on other people's appearance. If anyone disagrees, tell my why) that the person in question was somewhat "shady". He had to call other people to come pay for it, which certainly seems to be a problem.

pharmer
December 30, 2005, 03:15 PM
I guess sometimes things just look funny. About 3 mos. ago, I was in an Orlando shop waiting my turn. There was a "posse" complete with do rags and such. The "leader" had a Clerke revolver with a shiney gold grip for which he was seeking "caps". Counter guy had never seen one and there was much commotion on all sides on how to proceed. Not wanting to pass a birthday waiting, I suggested searching for some .32 S&W. After getting the owner involved in the search, a partial box was located and sold for $25. Now I'm sure they just wanted to punch paper or otherwise improve on technique or tactics. I was just happy to help in some small way. :D Joe

colt.45
December 30, 2005, 03:27 PM
i went to a small gunshow with my dad while he went hunting for a good price on a beretta, wich he found:D. there were guys that looked like they would "bust a cap in you" just for talking to them, but the part that wierded me out was that they wern't buying glocks, no sir they were buying H&K's and SIG's. great, now the gangs have better guns than i do:confused:

V4Vendetta
December 30, 2005, 03:43 PM
"Lastly, I always, always pay cash for my firearms."

"We would all be better off if we learned to use wads of cash more and credit/debit cards less."

I never use credit cards. I don't even have one. If a place won't take cash, I go elsewhere.

"a high percentage of young people today to dress in the hip-hop style"

I don't. Never have. I'm 17. Will be 18 in less than 2 months. I wear a clean T-shirt, clean, unripped, blue jeans. I wear a baseball cap from a vacation I was fond of. I have no tatoos or piercings. I hate hip-hop *music*. I listen to jazz & symphony music. :cool:

georgeduz
December 30, 2005, 03:48 PM
never seen that in anystate,on the east coast.i have seen people get tosed out.

georgeduz
December 30, 2005, 03:54 PM
i look like a scumbag,and being from nj i just might be .but i am not a crimmal.and i would be happy too,jumping up and down,if i was buying an ar.

middy
December 30, 2005, 04:05 PM
Granted, we surely were better dressed, color-coordinated and wore pants and shirts that actually fit when we were all young dudes in the '70s
:scrutiny:

http://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/education/productions/Comedy/images/balthasar.jpg

Well, OK the pants and shirt do seem to fit, but I'm not sure about the rest of your statement. :D

azredhawk44
December 30, 2005, 04:07 PM
About 2 years ago I went into my friendly neighborhood gunshop to pick up some ammunition.

I was drooling over the cases for a couple of minutes and a mexican kid came in with his girlfriend. He was 19 years old (later on in the discussion he said so) and his shirt was hanging to his knees. His belt was on somewhere between his knees and ankles.

He immediately went to the counter and asked for the "cheapest 9mm in the shop." The whole place went silent (there were conversations here and there before) and listened.

The clerk handled it very well. He started talking with the kid and immediately found out that he was too young to buy.

The kid left right away after that.

I suspect he was not up to the best of intentions, but I don't know for sure. I certainly wouldn't sell one of my guns in a private sale to this kid, though.

Carl N. Brown
December 30, 2005, 04:16 PM
I was at a shop when two very well dressed young white men
with military or police academy haircuts came into the shop
and suggested an obviously illegal transaction. The gun dealer
told them he smelled a trap and he was calling their boss at
the local ATF office and started dialling the local BATF office
number. The two guys left.

ball3006
December 30, 2005, 04:18 PM
I would jump up and down to be able to buy a Bushmaster.....I have to settle for <100 buck milsurps. shortly after the hurricanes hit NO and Houston, there was a gun show in Dallas. There were way more than the normal "gang banger" looking guys in there. A couple of said guys were buying an AR and the dealer was sweating bullets while they filled out the paperwork. I bet he was sure this was a straw purchase and someone was noticing, me. I spent too many years in airport security to not notice people that look out of place. Yes, we profiled then, 30 years ago. This subtle tecnique works great for eyeing the babes in the malls. Of course, asians look 15 years old until they are around 40...........chris3

Taurus 66
December 30, 2005, 04:49 PM
As a side note, I didn't want to cause a brou-ha-ha over judging people by their appearance. I was asking about the general idea of straw purchases and (seemingly) shady purchasers.

I didn't say the person was wearing hip-hop clothes. I said that it appeared to me (and yes, I think that every single person makes certain assumptions based on other people's appearance. If anyone disagrees, tell my why) that the person in question was somewhat "shady". He had to call other people to come pay for it, which certainly seems to be a problem.

I didn't say the person was wearing hip-hop clothes. I said that it appeared to me (and yes, I think that every single person makes certain assumptions based on other people's appearance.

So what if you did say he was wearing hip hop clothes, or whatever else, and because of this you thought he was a gangbanger. So What! If it offends an overly seeensitive pc ninny or two, it's not your problem. Say it like it is. Just refrain from personal attacks and foul lingo.

"Today you're half a man of what your father was; and I don't care if you make triple the money; you're still half the man. He thought freely, he spoke freely and didn't walk around with a zipper on his mouth. All of us today have been curtailed by the perverts and the demons."

Old Dog
December 30, 2005, 05:06 PM
So what if you did say he was wearing hip hop clothes, or whatever else, and because of this you thought he was a gangbanger. So What! If it offends an overly seeensitive pc ninny or two, it's not your problem.Who of us that posted seemed offended, Taurus66? Just asking, 'cause I was one of the first who brought up the dress issue ... and the gang sign/tattoo thing as well ... What I was getting at was, how does one identify a gang member? Unless you live among 'em, know the signs, the colors, the dress, the tats, you're just guessing, right? I'm certainly no overly sensitive p.c. ninny, but the OP gave no indication how he actually recognized a "gangbanger type," only spoke of witnessing a possible straw purchase and "*really* looks like he's, shall we say, looking for a gun for other reasons then plinking at the range. "

Hey, Middy, where'd you get that pic of me? (Actually, when I mentioned we were better dressed ... I was being mildly ironic while remembering my father saying, "You're not going out in public looking like that, are you?")

Moonclip
December 30, 2005, 05:07 PM
spacemans white comment was made in jest, everyone is getting too worked up, look at the little face he put and all:scrutiny:

FFL dealers pretty much had the right to refuse a sale to anybody for no reason too I though. Gang members come in all flavors too depending where you live especially. I ought to as a joke one day dress in Klan regalia and try to buy a pistol at the local gun chain, think they would refuse the sale? I'm not white BTW though some questionaires/surveys still think I am.

For example some Asian gangbangers used to go to a range I frequented. I wouldn't really trust them father than I could throw them but they were actually pretty cool at least with me and had some interesting guns including a Colt Mustang 380acp as well as a Hi Point 45acp of all things.

Basing stereotypes on someones race or supposed gang affiliation can cost a lot of business too. I frequent a gunshop to do consignments mainly because their prices are high I rarely buy. They make good $ though because they cater to the local Hispanic, mostly Mexican crowd. They will speak in Spanish if needed, offer hunter safety courses bilingually and stock things this crowd wants like Colt 1911's in 38super in various states of "bling". These people are not always stupid and know very well the local gun chain is cheaper but they get poor service there and they go where their money is welcome.

I went to an Arizona gun show last year and you should have seen how money has no color. A trio of somewhat scruffy looking Mexican fellows that loked somewhat gang affiliated paid over $4000 cash for a couple of nice 38super Colts from an FFL dealer and you should have seen how nice that (white) dealer was to then when the cash started flowing, especially when the guy buying the guns expressed interest in also buying a Beretta 380 or possibly a Walther.

gripper
December 30, 2005, 05:15 PM
Have any here considered the possibiolity that the witnessed behavior was in fact an ATFE sting in action??I know that the local cops where I live are fond of making their own action;so with all of their past misdeeds common knowlege around here.....

gripper
December 30, 2005, 05:17 PM
Sorry, I missed the post a couple of replies back ( two white guy's, military haircuts etc.).You get the idea.:D

Taurus 66
December 30, 2005, 05:22 PM
Who of us that posted seemed offended, Taurus66? Just asking, 'cause I was one of the first who brought up the dress issue ... and the gang sign/tattoo thing as well ... What I was getting at was, how does one identify a gang member? Unless you live among 'em, know the signs, the colors, the dress, the tats, you're just guessing, right? I'm certainly no overly sensitive p.c. ninny, but the OP gave no indication how he actually recognized a "gangbanger type," only spoke of witnessing a possible straw purchase

From the last quotes I got on Iceberg Dave, I was under the impression he was was feeling some constraint and so was reluctant in fully speaking his mind - lest he receive 50 lashings. I know as well as you that there are some lying in wait just waiting to pounce on the mistakes or non-pc views of others.

WarMachine
December 30, 2005, 05:28 PM
Seeing as though I am not active in LE or in a gang, I am unskilled in the "art" of identifying if someone is truly involved in a gang. Judging someone about how they dress and look to you alone is something that should just be kept to yourself in my opinion. If he/she goes into a gunshop, fillls out the forms, passes the background checks, pays the owner, and leaves without any hassle, then I am not seeing the problem.

I myself from time to time may dress in a bit of an "urban" style on a casual day but I am a well-spoken A student who has never committed a crime; and I couldn't care less if I am somehow fitting into some "stereotype." Get to know a person and talk to them before you pass judgement.

The thing that bothers me, is when a person or group of people come into a gunshop who don't fit the mold of an "appropriate" gun owner, and they get a lot of side glances as soon as they walk into the shop. :barf:

glockamolee
December 30, 2005, 05:33 PM
I see the Gangsta types at the Gibralter Gun Show in Taylor MI. The other Gibralter show in Mt Clemens has a "more pleasant" Socio/Economic gun buying market

IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 05:43 PM
From the last quotes I got on Iceberg Dave, I was under the impression he was was feeling some constraint and so was reluctant in fully speaking his mind - lest he receive 50 lashings. I know as well as you that there are some lying in wait just waiting to pounce on the mistakes or non-pc views of others.

Taurus, I'm new to the board so I don't know the dynamic too well, so I definately try to phrase things in a way that doesn't seem overly bombastic or harsh.

I've received a myriad of responses from this post and it's very intersting to see how people are responding.

BlkHawk73
December 30, 2005, 05:44 PM
i've seen it once at a shop I frequented often (closed now). The "customer" got paid little attention directly but was watched carefully. Inquired about cheap handguns. Owner said he didn't deal in anything cheap. The guy left. Afterwards he told me he'd had a couple others with that gnag look recntly. the others actually made to asking about a particular gun and was ready to buy. He decided to not allow the sale since he couldn't be for sure it wasn't a straw purchase. Simply stated to the "customer" that he didn't believe the ID was valid and if the check didn't go through, he'd still be charded a $45 fee. "Customer" left. :p

IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 05:48 PM
Seeing as though I am not active in LE or in a gang, I am unskilled in the "art" of identifying if someone is truly involved in a gang. Judging someone about how they dress and look to you alone is something that should just be kept to yourself in my opinion. If he/she goes into a gunshop, fillls out the forms, passes the background checks, pays the owner, and leaves without any hassle, then I am not seeing the problem.



You're right, I guess I shouldn't have called 911 on my cell phone the minute I saw the guy in the shop.:neener:

Actually, I think it's safe to say that people make assumptions and pass "judgement" on others all day long. This can be both good and bad, but I think people shouldn't be so sensitive to the fact that it happens.

f4t9r
December 30, 2005, 06:03 PM
i have seen this at gun shows and they got away with it , discussing who was going to fill out paper work and who had the money. Seen one group call in somebody to do paper work. Sale guy listened to whole thing and sold the gun when the paper work was done. I thought the whole deal was wrong myself.
I have never seen this at the gun shops I have been ,

k_dawg
December 30, 2005, 07:10 PM
I would not want Feinswien or Kennedy determining if I can purchase a firearm on how they see me; and I try to avoid doing likewise. Where I live, there are plenty of "bums" that are actually pretty stinking rich.


Obviously, if we are talking about actual criminal behavior.. kick their ass out.:fire:

spooney
December 30, 2005, 07:35 PM
I've been at gun shows where folks were showing off aryan ink... some of them worry me a little more when they buy a bushmaster then give me and my wife dirty looks (we're not of the same ethnicity)...

+1 We get those people all the time at the gun shows around here.

Chrontius
December 30, 2005, 07:58 PM
A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one.Your first example was a good one, but I don't see the problem with the kid. :confused:

Hell, just to state the obvious... if I could suddenly afford to pay cash for a new bushmaster, I'd be hard pressed to not skip to the store.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean...you gotta wonder, why isn't the owner just asking them to leave? I guess it's nice for them to get a huge wad of cash but it certainly makes me nervous. Maybe they are just buying guns with cash because they have bad credit or whatever...I like to give the benefit of the doubt, but I did not walk out of that store thinking safer.

Perhaps they paid cash because there's a 5% discount for cash purchases, like at my local stores? I'd pay cash for a $20 discount I could spend on ammo.

1%er
December 30, 2005, 08:05 PM
Simply amazing, Since when did Washington activate the Federal Bureau of Morality and Dress Codes??? Here's a thought; Mind your own P's and Q's unless 1) its YOUR private sale or 2) its YOUR place of employment !!! If you don't like it LEAVE Those greenbacks are accepted worldwide.



By the way as a side note- There is a ton of posers out there who want people to JUDGE they are tough by DRESSING and ACTING the part!

Harry Stone
December 30, 2005, 08:25 PM
I knew a guy that fit that profile. Young, black, hip hop clothes, gold chains, the wheels on his Escalade cost more than the car I drive. Lots of women around, and always new ones. He always had a big wad of cash in his pocket. I saw first hand the way some people looked at him and thought he was a drug dealer, gang banger or pimp.

He worked with me, he has a degree in computer science and his position at the company was network admin and computer security specialist. I never knew of him breaking the law except for speeding.

I've known quite a few shady people, and every one of them that had guns bought them illegally on the street, not from a FFL. A couple of them looked like bikers, but most of them looked like the average joe. Now that I think of it, every one of them except one is also dead now, and not of natural causes.

Werewolf
December 30, 2005, 08:26 PM
It may not be right but in America today:

PERCEPTION=REALITY

Don't want people to think you are a scumbag gangbangin' ????? then don't act and dress like a scumbag gangbangin' ?????.

It's really that simple...

Art's Grammaw was here.

Sleeping Dog
December 30, 2005, 09:30 PM
A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one.
I was at the Camp Perry store the first day the Remington 40-X .22 rifles went on sale. There were people of all ages, looking entirely too happy to be buying one, two, or more of the things. I think most of us were paying cash, about $400 per. This was way suspicious, too.

Too happy to buy an AR? What is that?

Regards.

IcebergDave
December 30, 2005, 10:31 PM
Simply amazing, Since when did Washington activate the Federal Bureau of Morality and Dress Codes??? Here's a thought; Mind your own P's and Q's unless 1) its YOUR private sale or 2) its YOUR place of employment !!! If you don't like it LEAVE Those greenbacks are accepted worldwide.



I think you're misunderstanding. I didn't intervene. I didn't call the cops. I didn't do squat. So I was minding my P's and Q's. I'm sure the guy was probably a college professor or lawyer for the NRA. Maybe a plastic surgeon. :rolleyes: Although it's awfully strange when he has to call his friend to come and bankroll the thing with a massive wad of Benjamins.

1%er
December 31, 2005, 12:09 AM
I'll see someone there who *really* looks like he's, shall we say, looking for a gun for other reasons then plinking at the range.


Dont be so judgmental, if you have a home defense weapon or a ccw pistol, then you bought it "FOR OTHER REASONS THEN PLINKING AT THE RANGE" too. If you dont like 'em leave, if you dont like how the shop handles them leave. Dont come here and pass judgment on their future intentions based on a 10 minute (OR LESS) encounter !!

Old Dog
December 31, 2005, 12:14 AM
Whoa, dude ... chill, brother. I don't think he was being judgmental; he was the one there, and made on observation based on his instincts ... And it's not a bad thing IcebergDave recounts the incident by us for a sanity check, right?

1%er
December 31, 2005, 12:20 AM
Don't want people to think you are a scumbag gangbangin' a'hole then don't act and dress like a scumbag gangbangin' a'hole.

That is just my point that there are those out there that WANT the normal average everyday law abiding citizen to think that they are a "scumbag gangbangin ?????". The DSM-IV calls it Grandiosity

but that is another thread all in itself

Art's Grammaw wuz here.

Taurus 66
December 31, 2005, 01:10 AM
That is just my point that there are those out there that WANT the normal average everyday law abiding citizen to think that they are a "scumbag gangbangin ?????". The DSM-IV calls it Grandiosity

but that is another thread all in itself

There is a small element of danger even being around those with that style of clothing. For example: Let's say you're in a store shopping and a small group of gangsta look alikes, who are not for real in this example but are just dressing the part - wearing the sagging pants, do rags, gang colors, etc ..) and you are nearby them going about your business. A real gang enters minutes later wanting to rival that gang (only it's not a gang, but the real gangstas don't know this), so a few open up with guns and spray the immediate area - you happen to be too close for comfort. Does this sound rediculous to you? if so, you probably live in a fantasy world. It happens every day and not just in the big cities. It's out in the suburbs.

There are innocent bystanders everywhere who get caught up in gang related shootings. So you think another pimple faced gold tooth moron who wears his hat sideways and pants with the crotch hanging to the knees while listening to the cop killer, woman beating rap hieroglyphic sound thumping 120 decibels cruising along in his Mustang is just another innocent 'freedom of expression'? ... something society should support, at least overlook, or perhaps embrace?? :barf:

I avoid that appearance altogether. Call me a bigot if you want. At least I'm a bigot whose not associated with the likes of them. It's their freedom to express themselves with whatever attire they wish. It's equally my freedom to choose if I want to avoid them for the sake of safety (and health reasons).

Art's Grammaw wuz here.

spaceCADETzoom
December 31, 2005, 01:54 AM
selling is always the dealers discretion.

i was in a store with my dad a really long time ago. i was just a kid. a gangbanger lookng kid came in looking around rudely asking for something. the owner was with us at that very moment and pointed him to what he was looking for. the owner was of filipino decent and told the clerk to "check his id" in filipino- speak. nothing necesarily wrong there, he looked pretty young. The gangbanger-type got angry and said something like "hey i know what you said, m___f__...just because i dont understand you dont mean i dont know what you said" and started complaining that it was because he was black. he then said "i dont have to buy here, i can go sometwhere else..!" the onwer said, go right ahead, theres the door.

if i were a ffl owner, just in good conscience, id be picky on who i sell to as well...its thier perrogative as a private business owner. id be more likely to sell to a regular joe consumer that can carry a conversation on guns than an angry baggypants kid with cornrows that wants a "glock fowty" and cant pay more than 200bucks... call it profiling, but if you act like an ass, you get treated like one...

Majic
December 31, 2005, 03:16 AM
Anyone ever go in a gunstore and see something at a good price that your buddy has been looking for then whip out the cell phone to give him a heads-up? I guess to some that's the makings of a straw purchase.
Everything you see is not exactly like you imagine.

cz75bdneos22
December 31, 2005, 03:26 AM
i witnessed the following at Houston gun show at Reliant arena..
specifically two white males in their 40's. dressed in Friday casual wear..
one sitting at dealer's table filling out yellow form while
other is standing behind the chair overlooking the first fill out said form.
sitting man turns around after completing form and asks the friend to hand him over the cash to pay for the handgun..man takes out his wallet and counts out bills in other mans outstreched hand...dealer's reaction to seeing this before his eyes, priceless and truly a Kodak moment..:what:

TrapdoorBilly
December 31, 2005, 04:46 AM
Why would a gangbanger be buying firearms from a gun shop? Is it so he can do his next drive by without a guilty conscience? Aren't guns on the street sold cheaper?



Not necessarly. It's been our experience that most gang bangers can't pass the state and or federal background check. Most of the time they just come in look at a few then leave. About 5 minutes after leaving they send in one or two of their ??????? to purchase the exact guns they were looking at, Sorry lady - no sale.

Someone ask it the ATF is co-operative, yes they are, at least here and in some cases, let's just say pro-active.

Art's Grammaw was here.


=======================

Art's Grammaw was here.

Understood.

Optical Serenity
December 31, 2005, 05:01 AM
Typically speaking, those who I find breaking the law most and we lock up, look the part.. And those that we encounter and are very nice and typically get warnings, also look the part. As an LEO I encounter very many people, and typically at their worst, and its amazing how almost always the clothing matches the personality very well.

1%er
December 31, 2005, 09:56 AM
Taurus 66, hope your up for a challenge, find where i said or hell even implied as to the danger or lack there of concerning grandiose behavior, I was simply attesting that it does happen. and that could have been the situation the OP was in, and you have proved my point - if you dont like it leave it will make you happier in the end

Trapdoor is right, and in tighter circles they use members with no felonies rather than their "old lady"


optical -must be a regional thing or a diffrence in definition Gang bangers to me are organized not baggypnts and his 2 friends that grew up on the same block stealing stereos for beer and rim money and want a glock in case shaggy comes by to shake them down again for the 50 bucks they owe him for some weed.




IN MY OPINION is what the OP was refering to as gangbangers, dont come to the net ??????? about them being in your local store, just leave and odds are your two paths will never cross again, especially in denver of all places, where violent crime is 4 times less than atlanta or 3times less than oakland, CA (source for crime statiscics http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/ )


If the thread was called "undesireables making straw purchases", it would have been a totally diffrent discussion but HE threw in gangbangers and really has never given solid reasoning for his choice of words, other than his assumptions


moving on now

FallenAngel
December 31, 2005, 10:24 AM
Is this the same board where 95% of the people are for searching more 18-35 year old men of middle eastern decent at the airports than 80 year old caucasian women, and complaining when people say they are racially profiling?

If I see a young black male in baggy clothing, lots of chains, and handling large wads of cash, you better believe my first thought is "he is probably a banger" and my second thought is "I better get out of here." Am I stereotyping? Yep. Am I right? Maybe. Am I safer? Definitely.

Do I feel bad for this? Nope. As someone said before, perception is reality. If you do not want someone to judge you based on your appearence, too bad; that is the reality of life. If you want to be judged favorably, then be sure you appear in a way that you will be judge favorably.

For the original poster, I have no problems with you guessing that this person was up to no good. From the evidence you had, their APPEARENCE, that is the conclusion you came up with.

To the poster who posted about his friend's asian son who dressed in the "hip hop" style, what else does he expect? I do not mean to be rude, but if you dress like a banger, especially if you are a minority (which many/most bangers are), then you should not be offended when people treat you like what you look like (a banger).

Most people who crash planes into buildings are not 80 year old white women, and most bangers are not 45 year old white men in suits.

Hatchett
December 31, 2005, 10:49 AM
I've seen a few suspicious-looking types at my local gunshop a few times. I never really base any of these suspicions on what they're wearing. (Alabama isn't really known for its snappy dressers anyway.) The only time I really KNEW there was a nogoodnick in the store was when a guy came in and asked for some "bullets for a Hi-Point." The owner asked him what caliber, and the guy didn't know, so he went out to his car (New Orleans plates, 3 days after Katrina, go figure) and came back with a Hi-Point carbine with the crudest illegal hacksaw job I'd ever seen. The dealer looked at the thing and just said, "fella, you'd better get that thing out of here and get rid of it fast as you can before a police officer sees you with it and puts you in jail for a long time."

pax
December 31, 2005, 11:00 AM
Hey folks ~

Please communicate without cussing on THR.

pax

GoBrush
December 31, 2005, 11:06 AM
This has happened to me before as well reminds me of all of the reasons I carry CCW and practice 200-300 rounds per month.

The senerio I LOVE to see are the 60 plus gentleman or woman (could be anyones grandparents) that come into the gun store (probably for the first time) ask very detailed questions about what gun would be good to start with what caliber to start with what is best for home protection etc. Ask about classes offered and questions about where they can shoot. Then plunk their mola down for gun, lots of ammo, and range pass. Even though they usually get the 5 minute safety lesson from the sales man these people are so teachable and want to do everything the right way. I have never asked but offten wanted to ask what life changing experience happend to them to make these changes. I am sure they would have some pretty scary stories to tell. Any way when we see people like this we should stand there and greet them into the shooting and self defense world.

bobhaverford
December 31, 2005, 11:34 AM
i figured i'd throw out some bait and see if there were any bigoted motives behind this threads being posted in the first place. if there was none, i apologize.

Crude, perhaps, but given the number of trolls I've seen lately, not necessarily unwarranted. It might have been worded differently so those of us who endeavor not to be bigots wouldn't have mistaken it for other bait.

If it was as obvious to the store owner as it was to the poster that this was in fact a straw purchase, he should have refused the sale. Since I was not there, I can't judge.

As far as how the people looked ("gangbanger"): I might think some appearances are silly (especially that spiked-gel hair thing all you guys do nowadays, sheesh, stop primping), but that is not the best judge of character or intent.

Also, note the reaction from this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172842) about a man prohibited from buying firearms but using one to protect himself.

jmm

I smell the smarmy odor of moral superiority oozing from some on this thread. "Man, aren't I morally superior!! You're a racist and I'm not!!" Give me a break. People are all too willing to throw around this particular accusation and it IS TOXIC!

The guy said "gang bangers" and most, myself included, tend to associate said gang bangers with the inner city crowd. Now, if that makes me a racist go ahead and knock yourselves out. But I have employed blacks, homosexuals, women, asians etc in responsible positions. I could care less about their skin color or orientation as long as they DO THE JOB.

So get off your frigging soap boxes and quit pulling out the heavy artillery of calling other "racists" smug in the knowledge of your own superiority.

GEM
December 31, 2005, 12:56 PM
Hey, I was in a TX gunstore yesterday and saw a old cowboy looking TX cowboy buying a Winchester 1300 for his Goth chick grand daughter for house self defense while her neo-nazi baldy boyfriend hung out behind. Then he bought her some low recoil tactical 00. The classic good old boy clerk was happy to sell that stuff.

Gramps probably had GWB stickers on his truck.

If it is a straw sale - then that's different from just dress. Ted Bundy dressed nice.

Taurus 66
December 31, 2005, 01:20 PM
and you have proved my point - if you dont like it leave it will make you happier in the end

Glad I could help. :)

mrmeval
December 31, 2005, 01:52 PM
Yes it is if you're a racist ???????
Anyone ever go in a gunstore and see something at a good price that your buddy has been looking for then whip out the cell phone to give him a heads-up? I guess to some that's the makings of a straw purchase.
Everything you see is not exactly like you imagine.

Art's Grammaw was here.

Mauserguy
December 31, 2005, 02:00 PM
"A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one."

This sounds like me when I buy a new gun, though I am a honky.

I went shooting Thursday, yeah I was supposed to be working from home, but they didn't miss me. I drove out into the desert and was practicing shooting from the prone position, when I noticed, on the ridgeline behind me, were some people and a little Honda.

I glassed them with my binocs and they sure looked like gang banger types. What alarmed me, though, was that they were shooting at bottles in my direction. I removed my earplugs and I could hear their rap music fill the air. I lazed them and determined that they were at 354 yards. Admittedly, they didn't appear to be breaking any laws other than the basic laws of safety. I would have gone and chewed them out, but I figured that if they were gang bangers, I better stay away.
Mauserguy

Majic
December 31, 2005, 02:07 PM
Yes it is if you're a racist ???????
Just where did racism fit in the post?:confused:

pax
December 31, 2005, 02:20 PM
Please communicate without cussing on THR.

pax

Biker
December 31, 2005, 02:24 PM
Just where did racism fit in the post?:confused:
A fair question.
Biker

pbhome71
December 31, 2005, 02:54 PM
66,

I need someone to translate that for me. :(

armoredman
December 31, 2005, 03:16 PM
Loosely translated, "I am a complete moron, My life expectancy is 20 years, if I don't end up in prison for uncontrollable stupidity." I think that's basically the drift...
Typical garbage I hear from inmates....They still try to wear thier pants saggy, hats backwards, etc, but here we can do something about it....

Biker
December 31, 2005, 03:19 PM
66,

I need someone to translate that for me. :(
I'm dumb,
You're smart,
I'm rich,
You're not,
I get a lot of sex and I beat my girlfriends,
I'll shoot some LEOs rather than go back to jail.

Roughly...

Biker

adaman04
December 31, 2005, 03:38 PM
I went in to a pawn shop I frequent a while back to look for bargains (yeah, right :rolleyes: ) and there was this d-bag Eminem wanna-be was in there in his wife beater, XXXXL jogging pants hanging down to his knees, some old Jordans, holding 2 Newports in his hand, 2 behind his ear, and the pack stuck insdide the armpit of his shirt. He had hickies from his nasty skank girlfriend all over him and in that nasally congested slang said: "Yall, got any fity-cals?" while looking at the fine selection of Glocks they had. I wanted to pick up the 2 inch wrench that was on the counter and beat him until my arms were tired. Wow, that was nice. Anyway....

Another time, same shop, a fine upstanding member of society :cuss: was in there and said: "What's the cheapest gun ya got?" The guy showed him a .22 revolver and he replied: "No, I want one wif on of dem clips wif it." Then he asked what he had to do to buy it. The guy told him he had to get a permit, yadda yadda. He said: "So then after I get it, I can carry it in my pants and ***?" Where's that wrench?

I know you all are getting tired of reading, so CLIFF NOTE TIME!

Once a woman was buying 9mm ammo for her baby-daddy (direct quote) and wouldn't buy any of the ammo they had in the store because it wasn't nickle cased because "It wasn't what his gun shot."

A kid came in to Graf and Sons while I was in there and said "Can I look at some guns?" The guy said yes and the kid pointed to the biggest hand cannon they had in the case. The guy working there asked if he was 21, "No...". Of course he said he couldn't show him anything.

"Can I look at that black one then?" pointing at an AR.
"Sure, are you 18?"
"No..."
"THEN I CAN'T SHOW YOU ANYTHING!" Pointing to the door.

Disclaimer: The names have been left out to protect the idiotic, scum of America. These are true stories with a mix if racial and ethnic backgrounds. I am in no way saying that all these people were black, hispanic, chinese, Jewish, Non-Denominational, left handed, lazy-eyed, etc. :)

akodo
December 31, 2005, 04:38 PM
saw a bit on 20/20 or somesuch about 10 years ago.

Had a young black man wearing 'gang colors' ask to look at guns, which the clerk did. Next they had an older white man in 'biker cloths' come in, he took the gun he was looking at and slid it into the inside pocket of his denim vest, said 'fits nice, and is within easy reach'.

The narrator then talked like it should be a crime to show guns to those wearing gang colors and what the white guy did should have told the clerck he was clearly planning on doing something illegal. My response to both was bull????. First, yea, you cannot have a law that judges people by clothing alone. Does this mean I cannot wear my red t-shirt when i go to buy a gun because it's a 'bloods gang color'? Second part, it is only illegal to conceal without permit out and about on the street. You can legally conceal in your own home/business. Maybe the guy was a barowner of a biker bar and wanted protection. Maybe he was just a guy who liked bikes and freedom and had a CCW.

On the flip side, clothing and appearance IS part of the total package of how you read someone. Now, there are plenty of other factors. Acting nervous, smelling like pot, bodylanguage, calling someone, etc etc etc.

Hiphop 'Gangsta-rap' is heavily dominating young urban fashion, and not just for blacks. You cannot use that criteria alone. Of course, most of these incidents ALSO included the criteria of suspicious behavior or statements.

However, I do have to end this by saying that 'gangsta-rap' praises negative actions and criminal activity. If a person chooses to dress in that style, what does that say about said person? Even if they are not trying to pass themselves off as a 'gangsta' they are still showing their affiliaiton with that type of mindset. Should there be laws based on clothing? No. But to think your outfit, be it 'gangsta wear' or 'aryan boy' or whatever isn't going to impact how people view you is unrealistic.

jashobeam
December 31, 2005, 04:50 PM
("'Na mean?" means "you know what I mean?")

I live in San Jose, CA, where most young men dress in the hip-hop style. A lot of youth today have been so indoctrinated by MTV and brainwashed by rap music and rap videos that they actually think that "dressing up" means wearing their best tennis shoes (Air Jordans), most expensive baggy jeans, two or three Sean John shirts, and a down jacket with a faux fur lined hood. They are completely oblivious to the fact that the people they are trying to impress are NOT the people they need to impress. They think that EVERYONE will recognize their taste and style and give them "much props" because of their gear.

I work at a gun shop/indoor range. We get all races and nationalities coming in to shoot and rent guns. A few weeks ago two black men dressed as described above came in to rent and shoot guns. A black female coworker of mine asked me to help them (she wanted me to help them because she smelled marijuana on them and wanted to see if I also smelled it. Though I did smell it, it was faint and neither man seemed noticeably stoned.) The entire time they were shooting, a third black man who had entered the store with them remained in the store talking on his cell phone. All his teeth were gold. He had gerry (sp?) curls and wore a gold-colored valour sweat outfit with a matching hat. He kept going into the restroom. One time he was in there so long that another employee asked someone to go in there and see what he was doing.

The evening passed without incident, but the mere presence of these men created a stressful environment and made all of us uncomfortable. When I walked to my car to leave that night, I found an empty bottle of Hennessey near where they had parked.

Men such as these seem too unaware of the stereotype they epitomize to even begin to make an effort to distance themselves from it, let alone attempt to disprove it.

To their credit, the men who actually shot at the range were respectful toward me and obeyed the range rules. The point is, however, that they represented a bad element with which most of us would rather not have dealings.

Lindenberger
December 31, 2005, 06:18 PM
One lesson we can take from "all of the above" is that we have to stand up for everyone's rights--not just the rights of those with whom we identify. In the following oft-misquoted quotation, one could insert almost any type of race, class, creed, skin tone or national origin (and people have, to suit their own special interests) and the effect is still the same. Remember, to your average anti-gun safety-beaver morally-superior types, we're all a bunch of low-life creeps in their minds--in one form or another. The only way to win over the serenity-nazis is to stand up for the rights of all. In a big way, the 2nd Amendment guarantees all the other rights. So we should stand up for all the other rights, even those exercised by smelly 4th-grade dropouts or homosexuals or whoever:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade-unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade-unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemoeller


All of our rights are under siege. Cindy Hill (Brady Denial? You CAN get your guns back!) says that "If you add up all the categories of people who can receive Brady denials and take Project Safe Neighborhood to its ultimate conclusion, . . . something approaching 50 percent of all the adult men in this country may lose their firearms rights. And at that point, all of our civil liberties are in profound danger."

Noda Mean? Nome Sane?

Addendum: I.e., "If we don't hang together we'll all hang separately."

Gatman
December 31, 2005, 08:10 PM
Most people who crash planes into buildings are not 80 year old white women, and most bangers are not 45 year old white men in suits.

Nope. The white guys are most likely Serial Killers or Serial Rapists if we want to stereotype.

Now the thing you have to ask is: The man with the sawed off rifle a pew posts ago. How many people here feel that they should allow us to own Class III and NFA weapons? Randy Weaver sawed off a gun and look at how much crap the government gave him. A lot of Conservative types complained about it because it was government harassment. I feel he did nothing wrong and I do not thing the man with the cheap sawed off rifle did anything wrong either. It was essentially the same crime if I am not mistaken.

And for those people who are asking for a cheap handgun, obviously they do not have the cash to go buy an expensive 1911, Sig, HK, or nicer firearm. So they get what they can afford. Should we ban the "Saturday night special" because they are cheap and affordable? Whose to say then that other more expensive handguns are not Saturday Night Specials? After the cheapest guns are gone then the Glocks will be the next cheapest. Then the Sigs and HKs. Then the Kimbers and some other 1911s. Then the custom guns.

A lot of people are also unfamiliar with ammunition and calibers. The women who wanted Nickel Plated ammo probably has no experience with ammo and does not really know anything about guns. She called the man she was buying it for her "Baby Daddy". Is it not a term of endearment such as hubby, boy-toy, or something else? How many of you have wives who have no knowledge of firearms pick up some ammo at the local Wal Mart?

IcebergDave
December 31, 2005, 08:22 PM
Thanks for all the replies, everyone. This ended up being a very intersting thread.

cxm
December 31, 2005, 08:25 PM
The fact is people make judgements based on initial impressions. There is nothing new about this... and to me it is very reasonable.

I watch people a lot... and appearances and body language tell a great deal about people and their intentions. In fact, anyone who carries a CHL should develop their observation ability to be able to identify potential threats will in advance so they can be prepared to react if needed.

I have no problem with people dressing and acting in any way they wish so long as it does not impact me... they on the ohter hand should not have a problem with me make decisions based on the way they dress and act...

Of course EDs make judgements about the honest folk too... some of them just have better victim acquisiton skills than others.

FWIW

Chuck


[QUOTE=Harry Stone]I knew a guy that fit that profile. Young, black, hip hop clothes, gold chains, the wheels on his Escalade cost more than the car I drive. Lots of women around, and always new ones. He always had a big wad of cash in his pocket. I saw first hand the way some people looked at him and thought he was a drug dealer, gang banger or pimp.

He worked with me, he has a degree in computer science and his position at the company was network admin and computer security specialist. I never knew of him breaking the law except for speeding.

nobby
December 31, 2005, 08:52 PM
The thing that bothers me, is when a person or group of people come into a gunshop who don't fit the mold of an "appropriate" gun owner, and they get a lot of side glances as soon as they walk into the shop. :barf:


I know. It's like you can see them taking their pre-planned SHTF positions behind the counter...expecting the worst. That's why I do most of my gun shopping during the week when I'm in uniform. It appears to make my presence somewhat "tolerable" to others. I have actually done experiments....:scrutiny:

Oh, well. Life goes on I guess.

VirgilCaine
December 31, 2005, 10:44 PM
... 1st two guys standing at the end of the counter, wife-beater shirts, pants to their knees, $200 tennis shoes, etc. I look over the railing and see a shotgun, a rifle, a giant handgun box when opened to reveal a tiger-stripe Desert Eagle(yes tiger-stripe) 10 boxes of various ammo and the guy behind the counter was going to get MORE.... I didn't stick around to see what else was fixing to be used in a gang shooting or at the local rob-and-go.

Riight, all that cash and they'll use their guns to rob a convenience store. Bank, maybe, not a convenience store.

charliemopic
December 31, 2005, 11:08 PM
While I have not witnessed this I don't think my local shop would tolerate this behavior and feel confident that this "type" of individual would be directed to the exit fairly quickly WITHOUT making a purchase.
The way these shop owners are around here gangbanger types wouldn't last.

charliemopic
December 31, 2005, 11:28 PM
Can someone explain what a straw purchase is? duhhh%^&

bobhaverford
December 31, 2005, 11:42 PM
Dictionary

straw man
n.

1. A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise.

Legal Dictionary
straw man
n.

An intermediary for a transaction (as a conveyance of real property)

cosine
December 31, 2005, 11:55 PM
I don't. Never have. I'm 17. Will be 18 in less than 2 months. I wear a clean T-shirt, clean, unripped, blue jeans. I wear a baseball cap from a vacation I was fond of. I have no tatoos or piercings. I hate hip-hop *music*. I listen to jazz & symphony music. :cool:

Hey, you sound just like me. Every single one of your points applies to me. (Except that I play jazz too besides listening to it.)

I'm looking forward to when I can get a firearm and I believe strongly in personal liberty. I know a guy who is a psuedo-wannabe tough guy, and I'm glad that my parents put enough limits on what I did when I was younger so that I didn't get drawn into the MTV, hip-hop, gangbanger culture.

kjeff50cal
January 1, 2006, 12:02 AM
Can someone explain what a straw purchase is? duhhh%^&

It is the simple act of buying a firearm for someone (not a gift) or buying a firearm for immedate sale to someone. The someone that is usually a person prohibited from touching let alone buying a firearm. Example ex-felon G. Gordon Liddy's wife has a very large gun collection. I know quite a few women into firearms but it is said Ms Liddy's hobby allegedly started after Mr. Liddy got out of prison......:scrutiny: . Most straw purchasers are not related to the prohibited person except by the fee charged for the purchase.

kjeff50cal

MDG1976
January 1, 2006, 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel
Most people who crash planes into buildings are not 80 year old white women, and most bangers are not 45 year old white men in suits.

Nope. The white guys are most likely Serial Killers or Serial Rapists if we want to stereotype.

Gatman- You're misunderstanding FallenAngel's logic. He's not stereotyping race. He didn't say "Most blacks are gangbangers", he said "Most gangbangers are black". There's a big difference in those two statements.

Pilot
January 1, 2006, 10:48 AM
i figured i'd throw out some bait and see if there were any bigoted motives behind this threads being posted in the first place. if there was none, i apologize.

Oh great, so you're the bigot police for THR then? Think first before you "throw out some bait".

Yes, you should apologize.

bigray327
January 1, 2006, 11:35 AM
Ugly thread.

greg531mi
January 1, 2006, 12:32 PM
I was in Gander Mountain Christmas Eve, a guy and his girlfriend, was buying a rifle. He looked ruff, dirty looking, not shaved, dirty hair, doing that Detroit lean on the glass case. He looked at the gun, she pulled out the cash, and then the manager asked who was buying the gun!!! The woman pulled out her ID, and then the manager gave the sale to one of his underlings....Guess he what no part of it, if it was a sting, it wasn't his signature on the paperwork!!!
BTW: They were both white......

MDG1976
January 1, 2006, 01:30 PM
I've been know to wear (somewhat) baggy jeans, sweatshirt, and stocking caps and go long periods without shaving. I also have tattoos on both biceps and sometimes have a shaved head. I also work for a Fortune 500 company and go to grad school, have never been arrested and even have a perfectly clean driving record. My wife works for one of the largest lawfirms in the midwest and we live in an upper-middle class area. My point is this: You can't judge a book by it's cover (how PC is that?). I worked retail long enough to tell you that scum bags come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. I've had a young black guy who drove a luxury SUVs drop $2500 on a bicycle (turns out he was a pharmacutical sales rep) and I've had middle age white guy try to steal $300 of Dom Perignon.

spacemanspiff
January 1, 2006, 09:24 PM
hmmm, bigot police, you say? i think i now have something else to add to my signature line.
thanks!

solareclipse
January 1, 2006, 11:01 PM
I could go look at a gun in store x and like it. Then i can call person y because that person might be looking for that gun or asked me to go there and look at it for him because he is either working or too far out to go on a blind chase.

Then after i make my call and deliver details to that person he comes and buys his gun. I am right there salivating because well, gun pron is an addiction.

But assumptions like this whole thread are idiotic. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? yalls logic of preempting these purchases by throwing people out (and in turn get sued) is no better than the antis for wanting to ban guns to prevent crime.

:cuss:

Taurus 66
January 1, 2006, 11:07 PM
I could go look at a gun in store x and like it. Then i can call person y because that person might be looking for that gun or asked me to go there and look at it for him because he is either working or too far out to go on a blind chase.

Then after i make my call and deliver details to that person he comes and buys his gun. I am right there salivating because well, gun pron is an addiction.

But assumptions like this whole thread are idiotic. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? yalls logic of preempting these purchases by throwing people out (and in turn get sued) is no better than the antis for wanting to ban guns to prevent crime.

:cuss:

Huh?? :confused:

Dave72
January 1, 2006, 11:16 PM
A year ago, my dad and I were shooting at a rifle range in So. Cal. Several very conspicuous gangbanger types were there shooting. The rangemasters were keeping a close eye on them. The gangbangers were caught smoking pot in there car between cease-fires; the rangemasters ejected them from the range. :what:

No point here, just not something I ever expected to encounter at a controlled range.

loose cannon
January 1, 2006, 11:16 PM
im in the "looks like a duck walks like a duck,,,,,, crowd.:neener:

and i never heard of any buisness being sued for excersizing their RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYBODY. but then it could be i dont get out much.

around here ive seen many punks and tweekers told to leave and dont return.

Lupinus
January 1, 2006, 11:22 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

I have seen plenty of wannabe gang bangers who were white. And I wont bother with them anymore then I will bother with the black ones.

Kodiak AK
January 2, 2006, 03:52 AM
A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one. Yeh, the store it overpriced horribly.
I thought Skunk couldn't buy an AR in **********?

Mad Bodhi
January 2, 2006, 03:58 AM
I guess iv'e been lucky.I'm a big Hispanic guy with a shaved head have Skinhead tattoos thougn I doubt anyone but another Skin would know(not Neo-Nazi or Aryan,not all Skins are racist or even white you know) originally from Los Angeles but now in the midwest.Never had any issue with gun stores.But then again I dress respectably, speak proper english and am knowledgable about firearms.One time however I was with a buddy who was trying to decide on a shotgun and I grabbed a Bennelli M1 for him to check out and which he ended up buying.The clerk asks if it's for him or me with a funny look since I was holding it when we got up to the counter.I told him I was an old school forged steel and walnut kind of guy and my favored Social Shotgun was an 8 shot Ithaca 37 Featherlite.Well,then we started bull ????ting about how the new plastic fantastics don't hold a candle to the tried and true classics and my poor friend had to wait nearly an hour for his gun.:)

thorazine
January 2, 2006, 12:14 PM
I usually stroll in to the gun shop in my PJ's with coffee and credit card in hand.

mmike87
January 2, 2006, 03:28 PM
Paying In Cash
my father who as far as I know has never broken a law in all his life (he is tooooo goood) walks around with a huge bankroll on him. He goes to the bank once every two or three weeks to get cash out and then uses that. He always has. I've got nothing wrong with people paying in cash - in fact I think it makes for much more sound fiscal policy and wish I would as well. We would all be better off if we learned to use wads of cash more and credit/debit cards less.


I bought my Les Baer Super-Tac ($1900) in cash. I also bought my big screen TV ($2700) with cash back in 2001.

Cash doesn't make you a criminal.

I do, however support the right of ANY dealer to refuse to sell to ANYONE for ANY reason if they feel uncomfortable with the transaction. It's their ass on the line, literally - and no one should be forced into something that going to put them potentially at risk.

Phaetos
January 4, 2006, 05:20 PM
Your first example was a good one, but I don't see the problem with the kid. :confused:


Something about him just .... didn't sit right with me. When you see other people buying a Bushmaster, do they literally jump around while waiting for the guy behind the counter? I mean this guy was acting like he was fixing to get laid by the head cheerleader. Entirely too happy.

Phaetos
January 4, 2006, 05:21 PM
I thought Skunk couldn't buy an AR in **********?

I'm not in Kali.

Phaetos
January 4, 2006, 06:06 PM
Riight, all that cash and they'll use their guns to rob a convenience store. Bank, maybe, not a convenience store.


I was being a bit facetious with the stop-n-rob thing. Let's just say it didn't appear any good would come out of it.

Phaetos
January 4, 2006, 06:08 PM
Perhaps they paid cash because there's a 5% discount for cash purchases, like at my local stores? I'd pay cash for a $20 discount I could spend on ammo.

No discounts for anything at that store. He won't even HAGGLE for a little discount to get the sale. In fact, I told the owner to his face the other day he was too damn overpriced and I wouldn't be buying a damn thing in his store, unless it was under $15.

Phaetos
January 4, 2006, 06:16 PM
Of course, asians look 15 years old until they are around 40

Even then they still look 17, man ... don't get me started. Off topic... must stop now.

Phaetos
January 4, 2006, 06:29 PM
The thing is when "profiling" people you see buying guns. It can get downright amusing. As I was shopping, directly after Katrina when EVERYONE was buying a gun, when standing in the stores waiting for help it was quite amusing. Everyone was watching everyone else to see what their intentions were and how they acted and presented themselves. I couldn't decide who was more scared about people buying guns, the whites who saw all the "hip-hop" wannabes buying guns with cash rolls or the "hip-hop" wannabes watching all the white people buying guns like crazy :what: Who was more scared of who? It was quite funny.

bogie
January 4, 2006, 06:33 PM
When you see other people buying a Bushmaster, do they literally jump around while waiting for the guy behind the counter? I mean this guy was acting like he was fixing to get laid by the head cheerleader. Entirely too happy.

That's our Skunky! Is the head cheerleader Korean and like precision rifles?

And Spiff may be a little weird, but he's OUR kinda weird.

Personally, I try not to knee-jerk with judgements based on outward appearance, but sometimes it's hard... Sometimes instinct is right.

Then again, I know one cop who has a most excellent mullet and does the world's greatest tweaker impression...

VirgilCaine
January 4, 2006, 06:52 PM
The thing is when "profiling" people you see buying guns. It can get downright amusing. As I was shopping, directly after Katrina when EVERYONE was buying a gun, when standing in the stores waiting for help it was quite amusing. Everyone was watching everyone else to see what their intentions were and how they acted and presented themselves. I couldn't decide who was more scared about people buying guns, the whites who saw all the "hip-hop" wannabes buying guns with cash rolls or the "hip-hop" wannabes watching all the white people buying guns like crazy :what: Who was more scared of who? It was quite funny.

LOL.

nucstl1
January 12, 2006, 06:52 PM
I have been caught in the crossfire of some gangbangers before and have witnessed a couple more rob a convenience store, so I am definately in the Looks like duck, walks like a duck,.....group. In both cases, the suspects were geared to the hilt with sean jean and phat farm, and expensive shoes. The city I live in has a higher crime rate per capita than Chicago, and a majority of those crimes are gang/drug related....and comitted by some of those folks. I think most shops around here send them on their way, or the gangbangers are not stupid enough to shop as many current and former LEOs frequent the shops. Personally, when I encounter someone I suspect is a gangbanger or a violence risk, I get out of the situation as soon as possible. If they are a target, your at greater risk because they use the street and convenience stores for target practice.

Stiletto Null
January 12, 2006, 07:17 PM
Hey! I'm an almost-20 skinny Asian kid, and I know I was bouncy as hell when I was buying my first rifle (Mauser, $150).

Anyway, places I've been to have had very clean-cut crowds, but they weren't in heavily urban areas either. I remember hearing the counter crew at PDHSC talking about some suss-looking "kids" from "earlier in the week" one day while I was browsing, though.

I'm sorely tempted to walk into a shop one day, cold (as in one I have not been to before), and deadpan "Hi, do you have any Deagles?", just to see the reaction.

SilentStalker
January 12, 2006, 10:01 PM
You guys haven't seen nothing LOL. Last weekend when I was at the gunshow which are heavily unregulated, I seen some very shady looking people that I would have to say were none other than gangbangers. They were all tattooed up, wearing doo rags or however you spell it, wearing gang colors, had way too much cash on them, $300 shoes, $400 cell phone and their incompetence of guns gave it away. One of them picked up a customized pistol that had a lengthened barrel on it which I admit looked an awful lot like a silencer but you could tell that it was not LOL. Anyways the one that picked up the gun asked the guy behind the booth how much the silencers were and how much he could get several for LOL. Can you believe that? The guy behind the booth explained to him what it was, but I did not stick around to hear all of it. Anyways you can say what you want about judging by appearanced and whatnot but when people ask specifically about silencers, even if you could sell them like this, you would seriously have to question why and for what purpose they wanted a silencer. I don't think I really need to spell that out LOL as most of you already know. Anyways yeah that is just one thing I seen at the show that was very disturbing, but believe me there was much more.

Lupinus
January 12, 2006, 10:10 PM
If it walks and talks like one

I wont go out of my way to persecute someone, but I will go out of my way to avoide someone who looks off.

Big Gay Al
January 12, 2006, 10:28 PM
The shops I frequent have no problem throwing someone out who evens hints at a straw purchase. In one store where there are a lot of "kids" they throw out anyone who can't prove there 21.
They toss them if they're under 21? That's age discrimination! You can buy rifles and shotguns at 18! I'm shocked! ;)

Farnham
January 12, 2006, 11:31 PM
I'll echo an earlier poster...what an ugly thread.

As for profiling, if you're not profiling, you're not paying attention.

S/F

Farnham

IcebergDave
January 12, 2006, 11:53 PM
I'll echo an earlier poster...what an ugly thread.

As for profiling, if you're not profiling, you're not paying attention.

S/F

Farnham

Hi Farhnam...why do you think it's ugly? Just curious.

solareclipse
January 13, 2006, 04:45 AM
Huh?? :confused:

Huh what mate?

A lot of this thread at the point i posted was about judging people and inferring what they were about to do (along with kicking them out and whatever else was brought up).

And that is wrong.

What's not to get about that?

UWstudent
January 13, 2006, 08:04 AM
why dont we just bust out the racist jokes? LOL

actually, my good buddy mark (lets just cal him mark) is a young african american male with a strong desire to persue a carreer in law enforcement. last time we hit the range up together, i did notice a slight distance the gunshop owners engaged on him, but watching him MUCH more carefully.
they funny thing is.. the gun owners became much more relieved after they saw he was an owner of a 1911 kimber tactical. seeing he was an owner of a distinct kind of firearm that only knowledgable and gun-crazy type of guys would own, relieved pressure. then we all struct up conversations about how cool our kimbers are..

Janitor
January 13, 2006, 08:24 AM
Anyways you can say what you want about judging by appearanced and whatnot but when people ask specifically about silencers, even if you could sell them like this, you would seriously have to question why and for what purpose they wanted a silencer. I don't think I really need to spell that out LOL as most of you already know.
Yup. Most of us already know that a silencer could be used to protect the hearing of the shooter.

Don't get trapped by the anti theory that everything to do with guns has an evil purpose.
-

jtward01
January 13, 2006, 08:44 AM
I have a question for any store owners/employees. If you see something like this going on, do you have someone go in the back room and hit BATFE on the speed dial? If so, what is their attitude about having a visit with the new owners?

I know you have the right to refuse to sell, but I've always thought it was very unfair to force store owners to essentially become un-paid agents for the ATF.

It can be damned dangerous.

A gun shop owner here in Florida felt that a potential customer was being too evasive so he refused to deliver a handgun following the three-day waiting period. The buyer went out to his truck and came back with a large sword which he proceeded to run through the shop owner. The two grappled on the floor for several minutes until the shop owner could get a small Beretta out of his pants pocket. He told me he just put the muzzle against the guy's eyeball and pulled the trigger four times, ending the fight.

The shop owner was hospitalized for several weeks and off work for several months. Last time I talked to him he was selling out his inventory and closing the business because he never recovered completely from his wounds.

Stiletto Null
January 13, 2006, 09:14 AM
So...in that case, gun shop owner was right.

SilentStalker
January 13, 2006, 04:12 PM
why dont we just bust out the racist jokes? LOL

actually, my good buddy mark (lets just cal him mark) is a young african american male with a strong desire to persue a carreer in law enforcement. last time we hit the range up together, i did notice a slight distance the gunshop owners engaged on him, but watching him MUCH more carefully.
they funny thing is.. the gun owners became much more relieved after they saw he was an owner of a 1911 kimber tactical. seeing he was an owner of a distinct kind of firearm that only knowledgable and gun-crazy type of guys would own, relieved pressure. then we all struct up conversations about how cool our kimbers are..

I am not racist at all. In fact, I ahve several friends that are black or African American and also had several in High School that all went off to distinct colleges to pursue their careers. I am not saying anything racist at all. I think some people have gotten the wrong picture. All we are saying is that there is a difference in some African Americans and others. You can tell a guy who is up to no good despite whether he is black, white, brown, yellow, or whatever. You can tell who is up to no good. I can anyways, then again I have always been a good judge of character. I always hear crap from gun store owners about the people that walk in and have even been there to see some shady looking people walk in, but I don't believe all of the racist BS they put out at the stores either.

I was in a buddy of mines dad's shop not too long ago and about 3 young African Americans walked in and I noticed that tension behind the counter at teh shop was growing, simply because of the way these guys acted. I also know what lays behind the counter and Lee, another guy that works there was going to get it as these guys walked in. Well, immediately this group of African Americans go over to the handgun section and tension really started getting high then, so I go over there and start up conversation with them to see how they acted. Needless to say, they were cool, we began to chat for like an hour and it turns out all 3 of them play basketball for Alabama. They looked kind of shady I admit, but you have to put all factors together before you start making assumptiuons about people, hell when they spoke they had perfect grammar, they joked around, etc. they were nothing to worry about. The tension behind the booth went down and that was it, they are now welcomed every time they go in there. However, as has been mentioned in the gun businees you never can be too careful despite anything. You have to watch out for everybody and that means people of all backgrounds. Later.

SilentStalker
January 13, 2006, 04:22 PM
Yup. Most of us already know that a silencer could be used to protect the hearing of the shooter.

Don't get trapped by the anti theory that everything to do with guns has an evil purpose.
-


I hope you are being srcastic but your last statement tells me otherwise. You try and explain to the local PD that pulls you over on the highway that your silencer for your pistol is to protect your hearing LMAO. See what they do. Aside from that your reasoning is quite skewed. If he didn't know what an actual silencer looked and felt like, then that tells me that he has not been researching that as a possible means to protect his hearing LMAO. Get serious, silencers to protect your hearing, you got to be joking right? I mean come on a silencer as opposed to what some ear muffs? I have gone to the range enough LOL and I have never seen anybody bring in a silencer with their guns to say, "Oh it is to protect my hearing!" Everybody brings in ear protection in the form of ear muffs, not silencers.

Janitor
January 13, 2006, 04:28 PM
You're joking - right?

First off, you're flat wrong. There are many shooters interested in having a silencer to protect their hearing. In fact - one of them owns the forum your'e posting to right now.

Additionaly - I was only commenting on your statment about why somebody would want a silencer, not the way you characterized the people you saw in an "unregulated gunshow" (whatever that means - in most states there are plenty of regulations wrt gunshows).

If I had a legal silencer (very doable if you live someplace other than MN) why would an LEO give a rip why I had it? No excuse is all the excuse that's nessesary once you've bought your tax stamp.

LOL? LMAO? Ahh - we've moved to an AOL chatroom. Ok. LOL!

Edit: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=173981&highlight=silencers

AnthonyRSS
January 13, 2006, 06:24 PM
African-American is such a dumb term.

Mad Bodhi
January 13, 2006, 06:54 PM
African-American is such a dumb term.

Completely agree. I'm Cuban,Mexican ,French,with a dash of Apache. I proudly consider myself an ALL AMERICAN MUTT. Can't stand hyphenated Americans.YOUR AMERICAN!!, be proud of your ancestry but don't pull the hyphenated stuff.:banghead:

MechAg94
January 13, 2006, 07:03 PM
Definitely agree with that. I may be white, but you could just as easily call me a German American or part Scottish American or a chubby American. We are all mutts when it really comes down to it. We are judged by what we do and accomplish with our own two hands. That is what America is supposed to be about. Leave all the class crap and aristocratic elitism behind.

I have an issue with the "unregulated gun show" up above. I really don't want our gun shows "regulated". That is what the liberal Dems in some places want to do. Make it so person to person purchases are essentially illegal.

That said, judging people by what they do and how they act is natural for most. I saw some black guys leaving a show down here. Each one had a newly purchased SKS. No big deal. They looked like they were just buying a cheap rifle just like I was when I bought mine.

mmike87
January 13, 2006, 07:20 PM
African-American is such a dumb term.

Yes, it is. Especially since not everyone who is black is of African decent.

CypherNinja
January 13, 2006, 07:34 PM
Completely agree. I'm Cuban,Mexican ,French,with a dash of Apache. I proudly consider myself an ALL AMERICAN MUTT. Can't stand hyphenated Americans.YOUR AMERICAN!!, be proud of your ancestry but don't pull the hyphenated stuff.:banghead:

+1

I'm 100% Grade A All American Heinz 57. :D (no hyphens)

KriegHund
January 13, 2006, 07:39 PM
They toss them if they're under 21? That's age discrimination! You can buy rifles and shotguns at 18! I'm shocked! ;)

Stupid business principle, theyre going to loss a lot of first time buyers that could turn into long time buyers.

Oh well...

Sean85746
January 13, 2006, 07:42 PM
Um...explain? I didn't say they weren't white...why did you assume that a straw purchasing gangbanger-looking guy must be non-white?

I think spiff was being ironical, or a the very least sarcastic...possibly even sardonic.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sean85746
January 13, 2006, 07:46 PM
Completely agree. I'm Cuban,Mexican ,French,with a dash of Apache. I proudly consider myself an ALL AMERICAN MUTT. Can't stand hyphenated Americans.YOUR AMERICAN!!, be proud of your ancestry but don't pull the hyphenated stuff.:banghead:

++++++++++++++++1

If pressed for a specific answer, I say I am an AMERICAN OF IRISH ANCESTRY, or an AMERICAN with irish roots.

AMERICAN always comes first. I never served in the Irish Army...lol.

Then again, I am 6'4" with green eyes, a few freckles, and light brown hair. Folks usually assume I am a paddy.

Werewolf
January 13, 2006, 07:54 PM
African-American is such a dumb term.No kidding. Africa is a continent. As far as I know most blacks in the USA were not born there so how can they be AFRICAN Americans - they're just plain Americans like me.

Unfortunately the Democrats and many Blacks just don't see it that way. They want to be different. Acculturation is a bad word to them both.

springmom
January 13, 2006, 08:17 PM
yeah, thats why we only sell to good white folks.

:scrutiny:

I think the issue was the straw purchase behavior...calling one guy to fill out the paperwork, calling another to bring down the cash.... that has nothing to do with color, has everything to do with behavior.

Springmom

CombatArmsUSAF
January 14, 2006, 11:48 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but can soembody explain what a straw purchase is? I have heard it numerous times and I know it is something like an illiegal sale, can you clarify?

Farnham
January 15, 2006, 12:07 AM
CombatArmsUSAF, a "straw purchase" is what it's called when a person buys a gun for another person that is somehow prohibited from buying that gun (felon, underage, non-resident). The prohibited person provides the straw purchaser with the money, points out the gun, and then takes possession of the gun from the purchaser.

Least, that's how I understand it.

S/F

Farnham

Nightdiver
January 15, 2006, 01:14 AM
A little skinny asian kid, didn't look no more than 19, was fixing to buy a Bushmaster. He was literally jumping up and down! I mean, he looked ENTIRELY too happy to be buying one. He paid cash, $1300 for this one. Yeh, the store it overpriced horribly.

That sounds like me when I bought my first handgun.

spacemanspiff
January 15, 2006, 01:33 AM
I think the issue was the straw purchase behavior...calling one guy to fill out the paperwork, calling another to bring down the cash.... that has nothing to do with color, has everything to do with behavior.

i think i addressed this in an earlier post to this thread.

I am not racist at all. In fact, I ahve several friends that are black or African American
for the record i am not racist either. i know lots of white people. :D

Waitone
January 15, 2006, 07:14 AM
Interesting thread and no, I don't think it is ugly. I think it realistically points out how we make judgement. No problem there, just human nature at work. I'm intrigued at those who want to dress in a manner that is not reflective of their particular socio-economic stratum. For what ever the reason the adopted statum is those strata wherein exists a perceived threat to "normal" people. Two example: gangsta and biker. Yea, I know all the arguments against drawing conclusions based on appearances. But I find interesting is I don't see anyone adopting the dress of the 70's as an alternative. So instead of baggie pants and a reverse mount ball cap why not wear a John Travolta disco suit. Would I be suspicious of anyone dressed like travolta browsing a gunshop? Not hardly because the there is no implied threat based on the clothes worn.

To me clothing is a first pass evaluation. For me the really serious evaluation comes when I get to take a hard look at the face. If I see a loose countenance or a smile or smile wrinkles I relax a little. If I see a tight, drawn face or worse, a dead fish, expressionless face, red lights go off.

A while back I was in a gunshop. Two or three clerks were present along with about 4 shopping customer. In walk 3 types dressed consistent with the banger or gangsta culture. Everyone in the shop was edgy. One of the clerks quietly asked me if I was packin' (yep). At that point I started moving to find a good angle. Everyone else in the shop was doing the same thing. Bottom line the new visitors were either underaged or were trying to set up a straw purchase. Anyhow, they left without incident. I distinctly remember the face on one guy. It was like looking at death. Vacant eyes, expressionless, no emotion. :scrutiny:

Moonclip
January 15, 2006, 06:52 PM
African-American is such a dumb term.
Kind of is I suppose as I guess a white south African immigrant would also be an African American. I had a friend who was German American who always liked to put he was Asian on 4473 forms just for the hell of it, no one ever questoned this blue eyed man about this either. His wife was Japanese though.

tusk212
January 16, 2006, 01:11 PM
Ive gotten some strange looks in my local gun store because i dont look like a typical gun nut, but once i have started to go there often i no longer get the looks. I think they are just looking out for outsiders who are going to cause trouble.

Manedwolf
January 16, 2006, 03:57 PM
Hey everyone, new member here.

Was wondering your thoughts on this:

I visit gunshops here in Denver pretty often, and about 1/4 of the time, I'll see someone there who *really* looks like he's, shall we say, looking for a gun for other reasons then plinking at the range.

Do you experience this as well? I have seen shop owners display all manners of responses to these guys who want to buy 3 Glocks, then call someone on a cell phone to come fill out the form, then call someone else on the cell phone to come bring the cash down to the store.

Just kinda wondering what you guys think of this phenomon and if you have any interesting stories...

This can be seen at shows sometimes, too. A small group of teens and at least one early twentysomething (to buy) in oversized hoodies and gold, either looking around furtively or carrying the trademark "I'm an ***hole" scowl, examining the cheap Charter snubbies, or picking up a hi-point in the sideways gangbanger hold. :rolleyes:

Of course, I made one poor Wally World sporting-goods clerk nervous by stopping in for a few boxes of 9mm after a business meeting, in what I'd been teased is my "German assassin" look, grey turtleneck, vintage small round glasses, mil-spec short blonde hair, and a slender black Hugo Boss leather dress coat and black dress gloves, so... . :D

bculp2
January 16, 2006, 09:53 PM
Of course, I made one poor Wally World sporting-goods clerk nervous by stopping in for a few boxes of 9mm after a business meeting, in what I'd been teased is my "German assassin" look, grey turtleneck, vintage small round glasses, mil-spec short blonde hair, and a slender black Hugo Boss leather dress coat and black dress gloves, so... . :D


That reminds me of what happened to my uncle a few months ago. We were going to shoot after he got off work so he decided to pick up some ammo before work. He said the lady at the sporting-goods counter had a nervous look on her face the whole time. Probably because he was buying a few hundred 9mm rounds at 6am wearing his postal uniform.:eek:

Silent-Snail
January 17, 2006, 12:37 AM
I don't. Never have. I'm 17. Will be 18 in less than 2 months. I wear a clean T-shirt, clean, unripped, blue jeans. I wear a baseball cap from a vacation I was fond of. I have no tatoos or piercings. I hate hip-hop *music*. I listen to jazz & symphony music.


Good for you. You are not most people your age. BTW without parental consent you can't get a tat until you are 18.

1stduc
January 17, 2006, 11:27 AM
I've seen this at local stores, of course if the person hangs around very long the cops show up, the dealers I normally deal with give to LEO and let them decide what to do.

Hobie
January 17, 2006, 11:46 AM
Your first example was a good one, but I don't see the problem with the kid. :confused: I'm not skinny, Asian, or a kid but I jump up and down when I get a new gun. :D

Hobie
January 17, 2006, 11:56 AM
I bought my Les Baer Super-Tac ($1900) in cash. I also bought my big screen TV ($2700) with cash back in 2001.

Cash doesn't make you a criminal.

I do, however support the right of ANY dealer to refuse to sell to ANYONE for ANY reason if they feel uncomfortable with the transaction. It's their ass on the line, literally - and no one should be forced into something that going to put them potentially at risk.I generally ONLY pay with cash. Why? Because I save my gun money in cash in my safe. I don't run it through the bank just for fun.

mcooper
January 17, 2006, 12:07 PM
I saw earlier in this tread where one poster commented that one store kicks out "all those kids that are under 21". Well, I'm 19, and the only way I can get a pistol is if a parent gives it to me. However, I am frequently buying new rifles. I'd hate to get thrown out of a store when I was preparing to purchase another M1a...so watch who you keep out, you lose good business that way ;)

Hobie
January 17, 2006, 12:08 PM
This has happened to me before as well reminds me of all of the reasons I carry CCW and practice 200-300 rounds per month.

The senerio I LOVE to see are the 60 plus gentleman or woman (could be anyones grandparents) that come into the gun store (probably for the first time) ask very detailed questions about what gun would be good to start with what caliber to start with what is best for home protection etc. Ask about classes offered and questions about where they can shoot. Then plunk their mola down for gun, lots of ammo, and range pass. Even though they usually get the 5 minute safety lesson from the sales man these people are so teachable and want to do everything the right way. I have never asked but offten wanted to ask what life changing experience happend to them to make these changes. I am sure they would have some pretty scary stories to tell. Any way when we see people like this we should stand there and greet them into the shooting and self defense world.I witnessed just such a couple the other day and had the same thoughts. They were buying a PAIR of guns, their first other than a .22 rifle. Made me wonder.

Janitor
January 17, 2006, 12:15 PM
I'm not skinny, Asian, or a kid but I jump up and down when I get a new gun. :D
I haven't been considered a kid by anyone in over 35 years, and I do that too.

It's the 'new gun dance'. Most of us do it - just not all of us will admit it.

el44vaquero
January 17, 2006, 12:48 PM
I know I get funny looks when I got into gunshops or banks with my ski mask on. I'm not up to no good. My head's just cold. :neener:

Biker
January 17, 2006, 01:30 PM
I have to admit that I'm viewed with a degree of suspician if I go into strange gunshops. I'm usually on my Harley with all the leather, long hair, beard, spur, so forth.
I accept it though, it's my choice to look this way.
In our local gunshops, they just look up and say, "Hi, Mick. Coffee?".
Biker

.455_Hunter
January 17, 2006, 09:25 PM
I am coming in a little late on this thread but what the heck.

I look about 25 and tend to dress very skater/grunge, including goatee, longer messy hair, snowboard hats, backwards ball caps, etc. I have also been known to "forget" my shoes in the summmer time (hot, sweaty feet suck!)

I have been on the receiving end of many blank stares, indignant "can I help you?"s, and also outright ignored by clerks in several gun shops.

Other actions have been provided by other customers in the store, including comments by the requisite greasy bearded fat guy learning on the counter or snickers/whispers from the combat boot/BDU pant wearing Officer Tackleberry wanna-be's drooling over the latest polymer wonder auto.

Their attitude changes when I know ten times more about the guns/ammo then they know.

They also change their tune when my background comes up:

R&D Explosives and Weapons Engineer for a DOD Contractor
IRR Army Captain (Ordnance Corps)
BS in Mechanical Engineering
CCW Permit Holder

The point of this post is that judging a customer on their appearance is pretty risky to a gun shop owner. Not all "good guys" look like Mr. Clean-Cut from a Norman Rockwell painting.

Hunter

RangerHAAF
January 17, 2006, 10:26 PM
The most obvious scenario that I've ever seen occurred about 2-3 months ago when I entered a local store and there were two individuals looking at and buying at least 20-30 of those cheap 380/9mm autos. The person who was buying the guns was a twenty something female who was with a young male, who fit the "gangmember" profile. After buying the guns, they needed a hand truck to wheel their purchase out to the trunk of their car.

I knew what was going on, the store owner knew what was going on and so did everyone else in the store. I was just amazed at actually seeing such an obvious "straw purchase" happen in front of me.

SemiAutoMan
January 17, 2006, 10:36 PM
Maybe you guys should look past appearances I mean don't get me wrong straw purchases are a diff story but alot in this thread is about people looking like they shouldn't have a gun or looking like they are a criminal. I have went into a gun shop and spent hours browsing with a wife beater and nike's on and a shaved head and always pay in rolls of cash (not drug money or anything just paychecks) I even sit in the gunshops talking to the owners about which gun would rip a bigger hole in a car (why because I shoot old cars). Just because someone looks like a criminal/gang-banger doesn't mean they are.

pete f
January 18, 2006, 12:15 AM
We routinely put the stop on gun sales when i was working. Some might call us names but when individual comes in and asks what ammo will go thru a bullet proof vest, or how fast can we sell him a gun cus the SOB is still sitting in the bar. Or how about "I don;t need to buy one, just rent one for a bit" or someone said if i rub soap in the barrel, the grooves will fill in and the cops won't know who shot the bullet. or When a young girl comes in and buys a gun, but calls a couple of times to find out what she is supposed to be buying. If she says my boyfriend want to buy some bullets for a nine millimeter, we sometims would sell her a box of bullets, as in speer jhp's not cartridges but just bullets it was what she wanted....
We had one kid who came in and wanted to buy a gun with an obviously doctored ID and we told him he had to call this number and gave him the local FBI office phone number. Another who had white out on the permit to purchase. or the kid who kept hold the gun up against the window untill the guy in the car nodded.

yeah every once in a while, we stopped a sale. usually we just called the office in back instead of the NICS line and then told them they were denied.

Once we called the local cop shop to check on a permit to purchase and there were ten cops in the store in less than five minutes sitting on a guy who was a lost class 3 sex offender who had skipped bail, bond and parole. and who was stupid enough to use his REAL NAME>

Werewolf
January 19, 2006, 03:13 PM
Pete F:

Your description of denying sales is exactly how a conscientious FFL ought to be. Selling guns to potential criminals is not doing the cause any good.

That SAID:
First impressions and quick judgements count. In humans those abilities are inherited survival characteristics. In less civilized times the ability to size up the intentions of an unknown animal or human often meant the difference between living and dying.

In modern society the ability to size up the unknown is no less important. What has happened though is that the relative proportion between potential enemies and friends has decreased to the point that more often than not the unknown is friend or neutral. Thus quick judgements and first impressions based on appearances and because of our diversified culture are more often than not wrong. The sheep don't understand that and complain that we should look past appearances. Those interested more in being safe than sorry do understand. Mistakes in judgement get made but judging wrong on the safe side doesn't get one robbed or killed.

Human beings are hard wired to judge quickly and we do whether we want to or not. Thus the mistakes in judgement are not going away, like it or not..

Moral of the story: Gun shop owners don't know you and don't have the time or the inclination to get to know you so if you don't wanna be treated like a gangbanger or scum then don't dress and/or act like a gang banger or scum.

And the above applies to more than just guns. Try applying for a professional position in say banking or high finance and see how far you get if you show up to your first interview dressed like a banger. You might be a wizard of wall street buy you'll never get the chance to be one because you'll be hustled out the door about 2 minutes after you get into the HR offices.

Pilot
January 19, 2006, 03:29 PM
I have went into a gun shop and spent hours browsing with a wife beater


OK, I give up. What the heck is a "wife beater" and why would anyone wear one? I am assuming its some kind of clothing, but I could be wrong.

Waitone
January 19, 2006, 03:48 PM
Tank top style shirt.

Nitrogen
January 19, 2006, 03:53 PM
OK, I give up. What the heck is a "wife beater" and why would anyone wear one? I am assuming its some kind of clothing, but I could be wrong.

A "wifebeater" is an armless t-shirt like this:

Stiletto Null
January 19, 2006, 05:39 PM
Once we called the local cop shop to check on a permit to purchase and there were ten cops in the store in less than five minutes sitting on a guy who was a lost class 3 sex offender who had skipped bail, bond and parole. and who was stupid enough to use his REAL NAME>Heh. Owned.

I saw an artsy-looking couple wander in (funky-colored hair, lots of piercing, that weird art student aura, etc.) the other day and pop into the range. They were pretty cool looking, but a couple of the counter staff looked at them funny. The girl was pretty hot. :p

MechAg94
January 19, 2006, 06:02 PM
Maybe you guys should look past appearances I mean don't get me wrong straw purchases are a diff story but alot in this thread is about people looking like they shouldn't have a gun or looking like they are a criminal. I have went into a gun shop and spent hours browsing with a wife beater and nike's on and a shaved head and always pay in rolls of cash (not drug money or anything just paychecks) I even sit in the gunshops talking to the owners about which gun would rip a bigger hole in a car (why because I shoot old cars). Just because someone looks like a criminal/gang-banger doesn't mean they are.
True, but people do judge you by your appearance. In some walks of life it doesn't matter as much as others. You'll never completely get away from it though it may not matter to you. If you act like a good person, you get past it pretty fast with most people; which it appears you do from what you described.

On the previous posts, I really think people are focusing on questionable behavior and people trying to be macho and act like they know about guns when they really don't. It just happens there are some common traits to those types of people in some places. I am sure stupidity is not the sole property of gang banger types. Rednecks just learn to shoot straight at an earlier age. :D

V4Vendetta
January 19, 2006, 06:23 PM
"BTW without parental consent you can't get a tatoo until you are 18."

Just like I can't get ciggarettes or beer until I'm older?:D I could get any of those things if I wanted, I just don't want them. Legality has nothing to do with it.

Phaetos
January 19, 2006, 11:14 PM
This thread is still alive?

Taurus 66
January 19, 2006, 11:33 PM
Whats up with all this gangbanger stuff?! Hey! Where ever did they days go when gangs could battle without guns or knives??

Does anyone remember?

http://hellserv.serveftp.com/straightup/Video/oldschoolvideoes/bboying/beatstreet_battle.wmv

:D

thorn726
January 20, 2006, 01:01 PM
uh, yeah a LOT of people would jump up and down receiveing their bushmaster, but the gangbanger type actions- it is a bit frightening, living in an area full of these idiots.
knowing too many of these types-

YES they are dumb enough, before getting felonies to buy legit guns.
couple reasons- first off, you dont have to worry about doing years over being caught with it, or if there is a body behind it.

second- they are so stupid they dont think they will ever be caught.

some of the buys described worry me,. i am the guy who could end up at the wrong end of one of these gangbangers pistols. if i saw what looked like a straw purchase, i would have to say something.

i tihkn 25 yr old dude who knows about guns makes the best point, the way to hopefully be a little more assured of purchaser- if guy looks. acts totally ganger, hit him up for some info.

while i know many gangster idiots i would be totally afriad of if they were armed, i also have a friend who looks very scary, has tats, hangs out with hip hop people- but is a totally responsible gun owner.

there are definitely actions people take that indicate how they are...
i dont think it is out of line to make some judgement by how someone is acting around a gun purchase

luzyfuerza
January 21, 2006, 01:51 AM
Reminds me of something G. Gordon Liddy said once. He regularly talked about guns on his radio program, and someone called in once to remind him that as a Watergate plumber and a convicted felon, he couldn't own guns. Liddy said that this was true, but that Mrs. Liddy didn't suffer from the same restrictions.

We need more gun people with squeeky clean records, and fewer gun people like the G-man, in my opinion.

jiwilliams
January 21, 2006, 04:20 AM
Well... I was in a local Houston gun store yesterday when a couple of guys came in asking if they could buy a barrel for their Glock. The guy behind the counter said.. sure they make them but why? Did you damage your barrel? The guys were just like um.. "no, we just wanted to know if we could buy a new barrel"

Tell me they hadn't just watched "CSI - Your Town" and decided they needed to ditch the ballistic trail on their Glock.

Werewolf
January 21, 2006, 02:46 PM
Reminds me of something G. Gordon Liddy said once. He regularly talked about guns on his radio program, and someone called in once to remind him that as a Watergate plumber and a convicted felon, he couldn't own guns. Liddy said that this was true, but that Mrs. Liddy didn't suffer from the same restrictions.

We need more gun people with squeeky clean records, and fewer gun people like the G-man, in my opinion.I guess where Mr. Liddy lives they don't have access laws. In OK if a convicted felon lives with you you better lock them guns up. If you leave them laying around where the felon has access to them the law states you are commiting a felony. Makes sense to me.

I suspect it's that way where G Gordon lives too and that he was just shooting his mouth off as is normal for him.

JMusic
January 22, 2006, 04:56 PM
I haven't read all the comments here but will voice my opinion. Do not stereotype!!! We as firearms owners should stick together no matter of race, dress, age, or gender. I see some of that here. The fact that an individual is at a legitimate place of purchase is enough for me to allow them into the brotherhood. IT IS TOO EASY TO BUY GUNS ON THE STREET WITHOUT THE CHECKS AND WHAT HAVE YOU FOR CRIMINALS TO HAVE TO PURCHASE AT A GUN STORE! MY two cents.
Jim

Lazrah
January 22, 2006, 06:19 PM
people probably look at me weird when I go in to Buy a 50 pack of .45 ACPs at the local sportsmans warehouse. my web site http://www.alumnistudios.com Im the black guy in the picture, and im not a "gang banger" or thug or whatever. I married, own a house and pay taxes like everyone else

carebear
January 22, 2006, 06:38 PM
Reminds me of something G. Gordon Liddy said once. He regularly talked about guns on his radio program, and someone called in once to remind him that as a Watergate plumber and a convicted felon, he couldn't own guns. Liddy said that this was true, but that Mrs. Liddy didn't suffer from the same restrictions.

We need more gun people with squeeky clean records, and fewer gun people like the G-man, in my opinion.

Why? Do you believe Liddy is a risk to commit a violent crime with a gun? If not, why shouldn't he have one?

carlkolchak
January 22, 2006, 06:40 PM
Hey everyone, new member here.

Was wondering your thoughts on this:

I visit gunshops here in Denver pretty often, and about 1/4 of the time, I'll see someone there who *really* looks like he's, shall we say, looking for a gun for other reasons then plinking at the range.

Do you experience this as well? I have seen shop owners display all manners of responses to these guys who want to buy 3 Glocks, then call someone on a cell phone to come fill out the form, then call someone else on the cell phone to come bring the cash down to the store.

Just kinda wondering what you guys think of this phenomon and if you have any interesting stories...

Sounds like people are the same no matter where you go (I am in mid-West btw)

My local shop is down in the north part of town, in a not so good area. In fact, unless you already own & gun and have your permit to carry, you probably shouldn't be there. But it is the place with the greatest selection and price in this part of the state, if not the entire state!

And yes, every time I am in the store...there they are with their 'ho's and oversized football coats, hightops, cell-phones and bling making a purchase on stuff (and quantity) that I could never afford! And when they talk about guns it is quite clear their education on the topic comes from movies...gimme dat 9, oh yeah! you got 10 mida-meetuh?

Funny thing is, I never see these same guys at the local range .... hmmmm.

And I have given this some thought as well...my take (for what it is worth) is that they are just as entitled to the 2nd Amendment as the rest of us.

(except for their malfeasian friends they are buying them for).

But the ones who are felons-yet-to-be have the same rights as the rest of us "to keep and bare arms".

They know and we all know, these guys are buying their pieces for their gang-buddies, for crimes, assaults or to knock off one another over drugs, gambling or some percieved dis.
And they aren't shy about letting you know either, in fact they don't hide their intent at all really.

But, you gotta respect their honesty! At least they are up front about it...unlike Democrats who try to disguise their anti-gun SOCIALISM in the oh-so-nice-sounding "progressive" agenda.

It's like I always say, don't fear the man with the gun, fear the liberal with a cause.



ps
also, i am not generalizing, i grew up and went to school with the aforementioned and am related to a few as well...

aaronrkelly
January 23, 2006, 02:00 AM
Ehh all the gang bangers must already have guns in southern Iowa because I dont see any in the gun stores. Although I suspect I would fit the description. My actions would change your viewpoint but alot of people dont get that far.

I wear:

baggie pants (large pockets to fit surefire, benchmade, spare magazine, cell phone and pepper spray)

trendy rapper inspired clothing (man this stuff just fits great and wears forever, all the shirts have double stitched seems and I find it on sale ALOT)

tattoos (large visible one on my leg)

When Im working Im required to wear the nasty-ness that is green and tan with the pointy star - the uniform is not comfortable and when I get off work I want something that IS........I dont care if its thug clothes or not. Plus in the event of a stop and rob or car jacking might as well keep them guessing..:D

fantacmet
February 8, 2006, 12:49 PM
The gangbanger type has more to do then just dress. Yo man ho mo fu d ha gun? Ebonics, along with the dressdown, the funky chicken legged walked, etc. From all walks of life, mostly whites and blacks though but everyone does it. I resent the remark about anyone under 30 not at work dressing like that. I am under 30, and even if I am not at work I usually wear jeans or slacks or dockers, or cargo pants, and every last pair is around my wasit not around my knees. I wear my shirts tucked in, even t-shirts only exception being a short sleeved button down shirt open in the front over my tucked in T in order to conceal the handgun on my side. I walk like a person and not a bad imitiation of a (insert favorite animal joke here), I speak ENGLISH, and it's usually proper english, I don't speak ebonics, and nor do I understand half of it, when I hear it I say speak english or don't speak to me. I don't give a ???? what color you are the gangbangin stereotype can go anywhere and when you pack it all together it's usually true. There is a difference when someone is just dressing in what they think is a style(pants around their knees), and when they talk and walk. We are so worried about being PC now a days, we completely and intentionally ignore the demographics. Blacks commit certain types of crime more often then others, whites commit other types of crimes more often then others, same goes with each and every race, but our PC media mogul BS mind training has told us this is not so, they teach us to intentionally ignore whatever is not what they want to be popular opinion. Society doesn't for their own opinions hardly at all anymore, the media gives them their opinion. I have a degree I am a network engineer and administrator, my talents are many. Here is the kicker thats gonna get you all. I drive a big ass 4x4 on big ass mud tires, I wear a cowboy hat, I have a huge ass belt buckle on my belt and yes it was won from the rodeo(by a dearly departed friend I wear it in his honor because he asked me to before he died), and I have a big stereo that I blast country music from, everything from Shania Twain and LoneStar to Conway Twitty, to George Jones, Waylon Jennings and the like. Yes I am your worst nightmare, I am a redneck with an IQ. thats just it though, I am a REDNECK, niot some stupid ass inbred backhills hillbilly hick. Yes I can ride a horse, yes I live in the city but only b/c I have to at this time. So you can take your PC and whine about stereotyping and stick it well, yeah. Or you can open your eyes to the world around you and quick accepting the bits of pre-chewed crap forcefed us by the media about what our opinion is required to be in order to be a good person.

Rev. Michael

Pardon the rant but I felt it needed to be said. If you have issue with it please feel free to pm me, and we'll talk about it there in an adult fashion or we can go into a whipping frenzy and attack each other. However if you want to start a fight about it it ain't gonna happen open forum. Just to let ya know.

pdowg881
April 8, 2006, 11:50 PM
When I was buying a .22 a few weeks ago, the guy at the conuter kept lokking at my liscence then back at me several times, but he glared at me for a long time each time he did it. While he was doing this i was just looking at the racks, and I wasn't looking back at him, but out of the side of my vision I saw him doing this. The funny thing is HE made ME nervous. It was weird becuase It was just a local gunshop in my small rown, I'm a white kid, 18 normal sized clothes, none of that hip hop crap or anything, but the guy made me REALLY nervous. It was hard not to look all nervous because tjat would probably make me nervous. It's just ironic that I was nervous becuase of he he was acting, not the other way around.

pdowg881
April 8, 2006, 11:51 PM
BTW pardon my spelling, I tend to type fast before I forget what I wanted to say. And I'm too lazy to read it over or spell check it this late at night.

simmonsguns
April 9, 2006, 01:33 AM
I don't want to worry anyone but,the last time i had to call our local ATF about a gun problem it took 10 agents 3 weeks to decide that 1 person buying 20 handguns with cash,and openly telling me two weeks later that she was running a small business selling the guns for twice what she paid for them while trying to figure out while i was not going to sell her any more guns,was finally arrested after everyone agreed that this was illegal.With the statement she made to me.
At the time,even though i did not feel that selling the guns to her was a good thing,she passed the nic's check and it was out of my hands.
The owner was worried about getting sued for not selling to her with no reason other than race.
I don't have much trust in the atf.

PlayboyPenguin
April 9, 2006, 03:58 AM
When I lived in Alabama I was in a local gunshop and a real "gang banger" guy came in and was looking around. He had the baggy jeans, bandana, plaid jacket that was popular with gangs in the 90's, bling and the whole get up.

Quite by accident I ended up talking to him when he asked a question about a gun that I had experience with and the shop clerk had pretty much blown him off. He was looking for a good sized revolver that a woman could shoot. We talked for awhile about revolver choices (since as most of you know I love revolvers) and I asked "what is this for?" he stated that he had made some bad friends growing up poor in a bad part of Alabama and now he has a wife, child and his mother at home that he feared would be in danger when he worked nights if any of these people knew they were there alone and he wanted them to be able to defend themselves. He was trying to buy something to protect his wife, child and mother.

This was a real eye opener to me. I was raised in a VERY prejudiced home and had a hard time shaking that stuff as an adult. I was always taught if they were black, hispanic, or asian they were sub-human and always out to cut your throat. I had never thought that maybe some of these guys where just trying to survive in a bad enviroment and trying to protect their loved ones. Even though I like to think I have grown beyond all that bile I was taught I still find that sometimes I have to remind myself to think first then decide how I feel.

This did two things for me. It really made me think that there is a place for inexpensive guns in this world so that guys like this could afford to protect their families. Why should only those able to buy a nice Colt or Ruger or whatever have the right to defend their home and loved ones? Before I had been completely anti when it came to cheap guns. It also made me try to stop and think about where someone is coming from before judging them by my standards.

I know this in not the norm and that alot of gang bangers go in to buy guns to be "gangsters" and thugs. But we should be aware that every now and then that is not the case and try to hear the whole story.

freakaccident
April 9, 2006, 04:31 AM
I see this crap weekly. There is always a ghetto dude looking at a Desert Eagle at the shop I shoot at. It's depressing to know that gold tiger striped desert eagles sell better than Kimbers in my neighborhood. Spinning wheels make me almost as sick as gold DEs.

Stiletto Null
April 9, 2006, 07:42 AM
I wouldn't mind an 8" .44 DE...dunno what the hell I would do with it, though.

velojym
April 9, 2006, 11:03 AM
Yesterday, at the local Gander Mtn, two couples in their twenty-somethings stopped at the firearms counter. One of the guys was shopping for a pistol for his wife.
When the salesman began to show him the Taurus Milleniums, the guy laughed and told him that he wanted something really small, in case she shot herself in the foot. At about the same time, his wife was ogling the snubbies and going on about how 'cute that one is!'.
The dealer promptly backed off the sale and brought out the safety brochures, then explained to them that they should never arm themselves without some education. In a couple weeks, his club is hosting a women's day (guys are welcome, but get to play on another part of the range) and he recommended they try a few models out first before returning to make a purchase.
I applaud this.
As for stereotypes, my wife is black, and makes twice what I do. It helps that she has two Master's Degrees (I was a mere airplane mechanic before I got into my current field) and works way too much IMHO.
She has some interest in shooting now, and I hope she's treated fully as the responsible human being that she is, regardless of what folks think about her pigmentation. (she does dress well, however)

>SHOCK<^>WAVE<
April 9, 2006, 11:38 AM
I was watching a horrible reality show on BETV:barf: , it was Bobby Brown's (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bbrown1.html) :fire: (wanna be gangster & convicted habitual criminal) reality show. The family was going camping and they needed gear well Bobby saw the guns and was already to buy some when a camera dude reminded him it was illegal so he had to settle for air soft. :rolleyes:

gitarmac
April 10, 2006, 02:23 AM
If a person chooses to dress like a thug then they shouldn't have any problem being treated like one. If they don't like they way they are treated then it's easy enough to pull up your pants and act like a civilized human being. Be cool on your own time.

Quite frankly some of the posts in this thread smack of such politically correct niavity I had to check to see if I mistakenly went to the DU websight.

OMG, if someone is dressed like a gangbanger, looks at a gun, then stands back while someone else is purchasing it WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON!!! Would you act like this at a gun shop? Cause I sure as hell would not, I would expect quite rightfully that the owners of the shop would not sell me a gun.

What do y'all think those ladies in the fishnet stockings and high heels are doing walking down the street in the shady areas of town, or is it too judgemental to think some parts of town are shady?!?!

Crosshair
April 10, 2006, 03:00 AM
PlayboyPenguin

Good point. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. (In this case: "Look like you are doing as the Romans do.") I guess you could say that he was dressed in "urban camouflage".:cool:

PlayboyPenguin
April 10, 2006, 03:04 AM
Exactely. This guy lived in a poor part of town but was trying to work and support a family. if he had walked around in slacks and a polo shirt he would have brought hell down on his home daily. I was raised in a little coal mine town in WV for alot of my childhood. We were very poor and it was a very roughneck place to grow up. Anyone we percieved to be different or who we thought was "acting like they were better than us" was a doomed kid.

Yuck Mouth
April 10, 2006, 05:25 AM
OMG, if someone is dressed like a gangbanger, looks at a gun, then stands back while someone else is purchasing it WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON!!! Would you act like this at a gun shop? Cause I sure as hell would not, I would expect quite rightfully that the owners of the shop would not sell me a gun.


So if they came in wearing a suit and tie it would be OK?

NineseveN
April 10, 2006, 07:34 AM
Wow, no one flushed this toilet yet? :rolleyes:

doggscube
April 10, 2006, 08:10 AM
There were a couple of guys matching this thread's description in my local store two or three Saturdays ago. I tend to see sartorial style as personal preference, not an indicator of past or future behavior.

When I noticed the purchaser's CHL, that was enough for me to realize my increased attention was unwarranted. :D

-Jeff

gitarmac
April 10, 2006, 12:44 PM
Quote:
So if they came in wearing a suit and tie it would be OK?




Yes, if someone is coming in wearing a suit and tie, not flashing gang symbols, not looking at a gun then calling someone and giving them a wad of cash to purchase it, then there would not be as much cause for suspicion.

You see, frequently appearances are clues to a persons behaviour and values. When a group of people, call them a "gang" if you would, approach another group of people, and the first group is wearing their pants beneath their buttocks, flashing gang symbols, using profanity, and surrounds the 2nd group and address them in a negative way, it can mean trouble, like a robbery or something.

If you walk down wall street, or a business plaza, or a bank, and a bunch of people in suits and ties walk past you, stop and look at your, they probably want directions.

They post pics in our paper of the local criminals, there are a lot of them, and so far nary a one has been wearing a suit and tie.

Some people wouldn't be caught dead in a suit and tie, some wouldnt be caught dead wearing baggy pants down to their knees with gang tattoos, each group has certain characteristics.

Jeese, this is sad that I actually have to explain this, I guess the media has done it's job.

offthepaper
April 10, 2006, 01:02 PM
"I guess the only question I have for Iceberg Dave is what constitutes someone looking like a gangbanger to you?"
--------------------------------

One of the worst things about stereotypes is that they're often true.:D :evil:

flashman70
April 10, 2006, 03:22 PM
Much has been said here about perceptions and assumptions as applied to social status, race and good or bad intentions. It is unavoidable and in many cases probably advisable. That said I'm sure we all strive to take people as they come and not deal in stereotypes.

The original post addressed shady characters in gun shops. Our local range/store is in a deteriorating section of what is known in No. VA as the "Rt1 corridor". This is synonymous with "bad part of town." As such there are lots of low cost rental properties that attract the "working poor" and other folks of modest means. Naturally the young blacks have adopted the urban, hip hop look and strive to appear "hard." Often they congregate around the strip mall in which the gun store is located. Those that come into the store to look at guns and/or use the range, however are most often enjoyable to talk to and share our interest in firearms. I may be nervous about those hardcases outside the store, but inside we're all gun nuts.

As for strawman purchases I have been tempted. My wife and I have a 2nd home in SC and go to ranges there. When we see a pistol we'd really like to buy, we realize we can't without a SC drivers license. Contemplating the hassle and deferred gratification involved in purchasing it and picking it up in VA, I've thought maybe our neighbor (and SC resident) Bob would buy it......but no, I'm too old to become a scofflaw. But the thought does creep in.....

Deanimator
April 10, 2006, 03:33 PM
If you're in a gunstore in the Chicago suburbs and you think you see "gang members", the odds are that they're cops trying to entrap the owner. That's been Dick Daley's schtick for a long time. They then release footage to the local anti-gun media. Strangely, there never seems to be any sound on the videos that are released...

gitarmac
April 11, 2006, 01:14 AM
the liberal gun grabbing left isn't going to care that you liberal open minded shop owners didn't judge or stereotype anyone, when you sell someone a gun and they wind up on the news, a gang leader, on some murder charge, the media will simply point out how the guns shops will sell to guns to criminals.

Stainless Chili
April 11, 2006, 02:22 AM
I usually stroll in to the gun shop in my PJ's with coffee and credit card in hand.
Howard Hughes strolled, late, into Boeing, in P.J.s, barefoot, munching a sandwich, and bought half a billion dollars worth of planes.

gitarmac
May 17, 2006, 04:02 AM
Just a blurb:

The city's law department singled out the 15 gun shops after hiring private investigators who fanned out to dealers in the five states over the past several weeks.

Wearing hidden cameras, the investigators entered stores in teams of two and attempted "straw purchases," in which the buyer completes the paperwork and passes the background check, but later hands over the weapon to someone else who is not allowed to own a firearm.

The scam, prohibited by federal law, is typically used by people who are under 21 or convicted felons. The 15 dealers named in the suit sold guns to the undercover investigators. The city said the sales were refused at about 30 other shops.

The owners of two Georgia gun stores named in the lawsuit denied Monday that they did anything wrong.

Earl Driggers, the owner of A-1 Jewelry and Pawn, said he cooperated with police when they staged a sting at his shop, and believes he has always complied with the law.

"We certainly do everything we can to make sure guns don't leave our store illegally," Driggers said. "I don't know what you're supposed to do. If a guy comes in and meets all the criteria and you comply with the law, I don't know what you do."


They got big toms in savannah ga. I guess all that open mindedness and political correct non-judgementalness may have worked against some of the shops. I'll bet if they exercised a little more profiling and a little less head in the sand they wouldn't be in this trouble.

I hope everything turns out allright for them. I got my last 2 guns, no make that 3, from them. Sometimes there are some shady looking customers in there but the area is pretty populated with thugs and thug wannabees.

RustyShackelford
May 17, 2006, 05:03 AM
Hi
I recall a news item a few years ago where sworn LEOs in the Chicago PD "dressed up" like thugs/gang members going into area gun stores and "talking" about using the various weapons. It was a real scam! :banghead:

Watch out for the "banger" types they could be undercover cops or even ATFE Inspectors checking to see if the store employees are following al the gun laws.

I lived in a "bad" area of Pittsburgh PA and when I would go to check out the firearms at my local gun shop, the store clerks would get nervous and ask the shop customers more questions. I think they tought I was some kind of federal LEO whol lived near the store. :D

RS

RangerHAAF
May 17, 2006, 08:30 AM
In all honesty, I did see an obvious straw purchase at one of the gun shops that Bloomberg's lawsuit is targeting. I'm not going to specify which shop it is but what the buyers were doing was obvious to everybody. The buyer was a female and paid cash for at least 20 of those ultra cheap 9mm's. I presume that the male she was with was her boyfriend; they then borrowed the store owner's hand truck to wheel the guns out to their car.

After seeing this performance, maybe one handgun per month is not a bad idea for anyone that doesn't have a CCW.

wheelgunslinger
May 17, 2006, 09:26 AM
Doesn't really sound like you have to profile as a gun shop employee/owner. You just have to be mindful of everyone and watch who is breaking the law regardless of clothing.
I have customers who pay cash for motorcycles. In fact, recently two guys came in with a lockbox full of cash and bought 2 sportbikes. They looked like hoodrats, and they smelled like they each had a dank bud in each pocket. Since I don't work in law enforcement, I wasn't worried about their cash or their buds. Of course, recently, I sold a yamaha Rhino™ to a guy who was white, middle to late aged, and formerly was a LEO who paid in cash to the tune of several thousand g's.
did I wonder where the money came from? sure. How does an honest cop retire and have enough money to buy a 42 thousand dollar diesel dualie, a 2nd home at the beach, a country club membership, and a nearly $10,000 atv toy?
I also wondered about the young men that rolled in to the parking lot in a blinged out donk 79 Caprice. Where'd they get 10 g's?
But, I work for a living, invest pretty wisely, and am not middle aged and somehow am able to pay cash for anything I want. So, it's not that uncommon for me to walk around with 1000 dollars on my person at all times.
You can conjecture all you want about gang bangers vs. people in suits, but it comes down to RKBA and who is and is not breaking the law.
After all, I see an awful lot of young black men dressing like gang bangers just to get along the same way I see young rural white guys jacking up their trucks, shaving their heads, growing goatees, and putting rebel flags on everything they own. People are just trying to get along and looking like a tough guy has always been a way to do that.
When I was a long hair with wire rimmed glasses just a year or so ago, I got a lot of stereotypical comments in the gun shop. And, when I went to the gym, I had cops eyeballing me all the time and making whispered comments to each other. Now, I have a mil-spec haircut (I donated my hair to lockoflove.org) and wear contacts and am a pretty clean cut guy. Cops chat me up in the lockerroom and on the gym floor now, like I'm one of them (I bought a shirt that reads "Pleae don't spit in my food. I'm not a cop"). Even my co-workers call me "Trooper".
The way you dress and groom yourself will make a difference. But, young people haven't had time to realize that, or aren't in a place where they can effect that change because all they want to do is fit in and be part of the group. And, that's okay. Part of growing up is finding yourself. And so is learning to deal with other's prejudices.
So, really all that matters is who breaks the law, not how you dress. I don't like Gangbangers anymore than I like rogue cops, unfair laws, or racism/classism. But, we don't live in a perfect world, do we?

kjeff50cal
May 17, 2006, 10:51 AM
Yo, I thought this shizzal on the pizzal would be over, ya' here.

peace out :D :evil: .

kansas45
May 17, 2006, 08:49 PM
I learned a long time ago(through personal experence)that you can't judge a book by it's cover. BUT-It still makes me wonder a little when Mr. pants crotch to his knees, I HATE EVERYBODY T-shirt, cap wearin' sideways KID comes into the range to "POP SOME CAPS WITH MY BROTHERS" what the hell he's thinkin'? I watch myself a little closer!:banghead: :cuss: :barf:

silverlance
May 18, 2006, 05:51 PM
makes me wonder if they've ever actually been in the ghetto.

their descriptions seem as if they're straight out of hollywierd, and speaking as someone who is smack dab in the middle of "it", I'm not quite sure where these bizarre caricatures of the "nigg*s in the hood" come from.

while there are some folks who walk around in multiple gold chains and sport bulbous sunglasses, most of the time they treated just as much as wierdos by the folks around here. +1 to whoever made the comment about looking at the face - that's what you have to look at, if you're going to walk downtown. doesn't matter how fast on the draw you think you are, if you're busy looking at the clothes and miss seeing the change of expression in the eyes, stance, or other body language you're going to be on the heavy end of the hammer.

kid i know was in front of his house monday night. a car pulls up and starts talking some smack. kid tells the guys to come out to throw down, and when they open the door he begins to pull his shirt off. while his shirt is still up the guy (black guy, his folks say) puts five shots in com, all in a few seconds. drt, then last two nights in retaliation for it his gangster friends (the kid wasn't in a gang, just foolishly aggresive) killed four guys.

it's tempting for us gun owners to think ourselves somehow superior to the gangsters and riff raff, as if we're all delta force and the enemy bears flintlocks. these "gangstas" aren't as dumb as they make everyone think and they may very well practice just as much as the average thr guy does.

AJAX22
May 18, 2006, 06:11 PM
+1 on the eyes telling the real story, however baggy cloathing is much better for conceling a handgun, I'm not as worried about a guy in a mesh tank top.

The ghetto G style of dressing seems to have evolved primarily as a way of conceling substance or armeremants upon the person. For alot of people now its just a 'cool' way to dress. but for anyone who's ever carried, you know how easy it is to hide a decent sized piece under all of that.

just my 2 cents.

and you can't blame a guy for worrying about straw purchases, the store's licence is at risk if you go through with it.

NineseveN
May 18, 2006, 06:39 PM
Silverlance has it nailed, and some of you need to read his words until they sink in.

Saevar
May 19, 2006, 01:09 AM
*chuckle* Stilleto Null (.. I'm too lazy to go back and check if thats the username) mentioning the guys at PDHSC talking about some of the people that come through the store makes me wonder just what they thought or said about me..

I've tried to do my homework on pistols. I don't own any, and I've only fired them a few times. So I'm sure it showed. I walked in the first time in cargo shorts, a 6 year old t-shirt, really long hair, hadn't shaved in days, and I'm asian. I asked to see a SIG, Springfield XD, and a S&W SW99 (all in 9mm).

I certainly wouldn't call the clothes I wear a gangbanger style. But all the same I'm sure I don't project a "gunowner aura." Which... would makes sense. I don't own any. Although I hope to soon be changing that.

chaingunner
May 19, 2006, 02:14 AM
I'm a white 22 year old who usually wears his combat boots on liberty, with blue jeans and white or black shirts. I did the "new gun dance" as soon as I got home with my Mosin-Nagant (I thought it would be improper to do the NGD in the store).

edit: regarding homeboy nytesytes: Wouldn't that work? A bullet does rise a bit as it travels through the air, as we all know, so if you hold a pistol sideways, the bullet is still doin it's thing, and thus sights on the side of the slide ought to do the trick, right?

let's not even get started about how recoil would be harder to manage and bla bla blah...I'm just sayin, the sighting system itself might be possible...

JShirley
May 19, 2006, 06:59 PM
Bullets do not rise as they travel. That is a fairly common myth. What can happen, is a slower bullet may strike higher than a faster one from the same firearm, because the POA (point of aim) is set for the faster bullet, and the slower bullet has longer in the barrel, which is rising as the gun recoils.

John (welcome to THR, btw!)

Bill T
May 20, 2006, 08:06 AM
On the subject of race. I live in a suburb of Phoenix. Phoenix is having a tremendous problem with illeagle Mexican invaders. I use the word invasion because this has nothing to do with immigration. That is a legal process these people refuse to obey. This is changing peoples attitudes all over town. Crime is up, along with road rage and accidents. I myself was rear ended by an illeagle invader who tried to hit and run forceing me to chase him down. No insurance, stolen plates, illeagle as hell. Result, I had to eat a $1,000.00 deductable to have MY INSURANCE repair my car. Arizona has mandatory auto insurance. This means nothing because these illeagles don't obey laws. These people for the most part are arrogant, filthy, and self centered. People, (working, tax paying, white, middle class citizens), have just about had it. Is this racist? The point is, WHO CARES!? This condition didn't exist in this city before they showed up in numbers having babys every 15 minutes with zero health care. I was in my local gun shop the other day, (owner always carries a Glock), when 5 of these non english speaking scum came in talking in Spanish, dirty and loud as hell, the owner immediately threw them out! I don't blame him. I was glad to see him stand up and do it! I could care less about "the good ones", no more than I care about "good Muslims", (whatever they are). I think it's time in this country to stop acting so PC just because a person happens to be white. Was that gun shop owner right to do what he did? YES. Everyone in that store felt far more comfortable afterward. And they, including me, spent money. These fools needed new clothes far more than they "needed" guns. White people are afraid to speak out because every single time a white criticizes a black or hispanic, they immediately start screaming racism. Thats nonsense. A rat is a rat, period! People in this country had better start waking up or this country is going to get flushed real quick! I see it getting worse each and every single day. Bill T.

Meta
May 20, 2006, 11:21 AM
Why would you, the customer, not make a call to police if what you saw happening was an OBVIOUS straw purchase? Like the post where the guy watched a gangbanger type and his girlfriend purchase so many cheap .380s and 9mm's that they had to be loaded on a hand truck to be put in their trunk. NOT calling the cops on both the straw purchaser AND the dealer does us ALL a dis-service.

AndyC
May 20, 2006, 02:51 PM
I'm learning almost more than I wanted to by reading this thread; I have, however, learned the hard way not to judge a book by its cover.

Nowadays I distrust everyone equally :D

Preacherman
May 20, 2006, 08:34 PM
Folks, after 223 posts, this one is about done, I think.

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