[ahadams]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/27/ixnewstop.html

The proof that Saddam worked with bin Laden
By Inigo Gilmore
(Filed: 27/04/2003)


Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network and Saddam Hussein's regime.

Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998.

The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al-Qa'eda based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for bin Laden to visit Baghdad.

The papers will be seized on by Washington as the first proof of what the United States has long alleged - that, despite denials by both sides, Saddam's regime had a close relationship with al-Qa'eda.

The Telegraph found the file on bin Laden inside a folder lying in the rubble of one of the rooms of the destroyed intelligence HQ. There are three pages, stapled together; two are on paper headed with the insignia and lettering of the Mukhabarat.

They show correspondence between Mukhabarat agencies over preparations for the visit of al-Qa'eda's envoy, who travelled to Iraq from Sudan, where bin Laden had been based until 1996. They disclose what Baghdad hopes to achieve from the meeting, which took place less than five months before bin Laden was placed at the top of America's most wanted list following the bombing of two US embassies in east Africa.

Perhaps aware of the sensitivities of the subject matter, Iraqi agents at some point clumsily attempted to mask out all references to bin Laden, using white correcting fluid. The dried fluid was removed to reveal the clearly legible name three times in the documents.

One paper is marked "Top Secret and Urgent". It is signed "MDA", a codename believed to be the director of one of the intelligence sections within the Mukhabarat, and dated February 19, 1998. It refers to the planned trip from Sudan by bin Laden's unnamed envoy and refers to the arrangements for his visit.

A letter with this document says the envoy is a trusted confidant of bin Laden. It adds: "According to the above, we suggest permission to call the Khartoum station [Iraq's intelligence office in Sudan] to facilitate the travel arrangements for the above-mentioned person to Iraq. And that our body carry all the travel and hotel costs inside Iraq to gain the knowledge of the message from bin Laden and to convey to his envoy an oral message from us to bin Laden."

The letter refers to al-Qa'eda's leader as an opponent of the Saudi Arabian regime and says that the message to convey to him through the envoy "would relate to the future of our relationship with him, bin Laden, and to achieve a direct meeting with him."

According to handwritten notes at the bottom of the page, the letter was passed on through another director in the Mukhabarat and on to the deputy director general of the intelligence service.

It recommends that "the deputy director general bring the envoy to Iraq because we may find in this envoy a way to maintain contacts with bin Laden". The deputy director general has signed the document. All of the signatories use codenames.

The other documents then confirm that the envoy travelled from Khartoum to Baghdad in March 1998, staying at al-Mansour Melia, a first-class hotel. It mentions that his visit was extended by a week. In the notes in a margin, a name "Mohammed F. Mohammed Ahmed" is mentioned, but it is not clear whether this is the the envoy or an agent.

Intriguingly, the Iraqis talk about sending back an oral message to bin Laden, perhaps aware of the risk of a written message being intercepted. However, the documents do not mention if any meeting took place between bin Laden and Iraqi officials.

The file contradicts the claims of Baghdad, bin Laden and many critics of the coalition that there was no link between the Iraqi regime and al-Qa'eda. One Western intelligence official contacted last night described the file as "sensational", adding: "Baghdad clearly sought out the meeting. The regime would have wanted it to happen in the capital as it's only there they would feel safe from surveillance by Western intelligence."

Over the past three weeks, The Telegraph has discovered various other intelligence files in the wrecked Mukhabarat building, including documents revealing how Russia passed on to Iraq details of private conversations between Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, and how Germany held clandestine meetings with the regime.

A Downing Street spokesman said last night: "Since Saddam's fall a series of documents have come to light which will have to be fully assessed by the proper authorities over a period of time. We will certainly want to study these documents as part of that process to see if they shed new light on the relationship between Saddam's regime and al-Qa'eda.

[Standing Wolf]

Not in your names, right, leftist parasites?

[Baba Louie]

"Show me the link", I heard everyone and their brother cry out; "The War Is Wrong", "It's BUSH'S War, not America's War", "Warmonger"...

I had all of these things said to me, repeatedly, people were telling me "I fell for Bush's Lies; Hook, line and sinker".

I almost doubted myself once Kellog, Brown and Root's name was thrown into the picture to get a "Rebuild Contract" even before the fighting was really beginning.

Whew.

Or should I still be a doubting baba louie (sorry Thomas) and expect to now hear that the document in question was planted by Sec. Rumsfield's staff late last week?

No real big surprise really... was it?

Makes one wonder if the really evil, sinister chemical/bio things walked out the back door being carried by remnants of A.Q., while we were kicking in the front door. All the vaunted Iraqi Army did was stall for some time and not much of that, (as it were).

Next few weeks should be interesting during the "discovery" period.

Thank you aha for posting this.

Adios

[WonderNine]

I can't believe Saddam would leave this crap behind.

[DonQatU]

Doesn't Rupert Murdoch own the UK Telegraph? Oh, brother! This report is laughable! Don

[JitsuGuy]

Even if these documents are real and were really found (doubt it) Doesn't this just prove that we should be spending our time wiping out Al Queda? It's not as if (again if these documents are real) Iraq was their sole source of finance.

It's been over a year and a half since Bush stood at Ground Zero and stated that whoever was responsible for this would be found (Bin Laden?). So far, he's failed.

Jits

[DonQatU]

Remember the papers requesting "yellow cake" from Nigeria?

And don't forget the "high grade aluminum tubes" for enrichment of uranium!

Both claims patently FALSE (dare I say LIES?)!

Don

[Jim March]

It means that Saddam had access to a secret, deniable "delivery system" for any nasty crap he ever got ahold of - including nukes, which he's been pursuing for decades.

Bush did good.

[SodaPop]

I thought they had "bullet proof" evidenece BEFORE the war started.



Bush has been teeter totttering on a cliff for almost 2yrs with his foreign policy. I can't believe the Bush administration has lasted this long.

[DonQatU]

Quite laughable, Jim! What "nasty crap" do you think Saddam was going to deliver? What method was he going to employ to deliver?

How close was Saddam to NUKES and delivery systems they already have in North Korea?

BUT.. the North Koreans don't have oil and they never tried to wack "dubbya's daddy"!

Where are all 'em Al Qaeda bastages? Ain't they the ones who spanked us on 09-11? WHY CAN'T WE GET THEM?

Don

[Drjones]

Remember the papers requesting "yellow cake" from Nigeria?

And don't forget the "high grade aluminum tubes" for enrichment of uranium!

Both claims patently FALSE (dare I say LIES?)!

Don

1. Nigeria - I have no clue. Please elaborate.

2. Provide evidence to disprove the multiple reports and pictures I saw of the seized tubes.

Even *IF* you are correct about the tubes, Iraq has a nuclear facility. (Sold to them by the french.)

[Drjones]

Regarding North Korea:

Many (generally anti-war people) say, "what about North Korea?"

Why can you people not grasp these two crucial points?:

1. War with NK means war with China. All 1.6 Billion of them.

2. NK has nukes. We have nukes. (Probably more than them.) If they use one on us, what do you think we're going to do to them? Kim is many things, but blatantly ignorant and stupid probably isn't one of them.

[agricola]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/madeupnews

The proof that Saddam worked with Hitler
By Inigo Gilmore
(Filed: 27/04/2003)


Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Adolf Hitlers' Nazi Germany and Saddam Hussein's regime.

Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that a Nazi operative, believed to be William Canaris, was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1938.

The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and Nazi Germany based on their mutual hatred of America and Israel. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for Goering himself to visit Baghdad.

The papers will be seized on by Washington as the first proof of what the United States has long alleged - that, despite denials by both sides, Saddam's regime had a close relationship with Nazi Germany.

The Telegraph found the file on the Canaris meeting inside a folder lying in the rubble of one of the rooms of the destroyed intelligence HQ. There are three pages, stapled together; two are on paper headed with the insignia and lettering of the Mukhabarat.

(copyright MI6 Document Fabrication Branch)

[Hkmp5sd]

Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Adolf Hitlers' Nazi Germany and Saddam Hussein's regime.

That shows the stupidity of this entire topic. Does anyone think that if Bush and Co. were really concerned about absolute evidence, some would not be "found" in Iraq? I'm sure that between them, the CIA/Military Intelligence/FBI could generate any documentation they desired, with Saddam's fingerprints on the paper, sales receipts from France/Germany/Russia and even photographs of Saddam, Osama bin Laden and Jacques Chirac hanging out with Susan Sarandon on Saddam's yacht. After all, as some would have you believe, they managed to kill JFK/MLK/RFK and not get caught for over 40 years, didn't they?

Bush did what needed to be done.

(edited: gotta work on that grammar and lousy spelling. Maybe when I grow up.)

[Khornet]

good to hear from the Ministry of Silly Walks.

The record of the Left on Iraq is such that we can be confident that any evidence of Saddam's perfidy will be recieved as proof of Bush's perfidy. Any evidence of Bush's perfidy will be taken as Gospel. Any evidence that the Left was wrong will be brushed over, and we'll be told to "move on". Any error on Bush's part will damn him and all his works forever. Such is life.

[Don Gwinn]

Apparently, according to the Left, it is now more credible to believe that George Bush and Tony Blair and a few others are engaging in a tinfoil-hat, Bilderberg Trilateral Illuminati-style conspiracy than it is to believe that Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden were engaged in a conspiracy.

I say this without irony or hyperbole: that is sad. It's pitiful.


I had my doubts too, but come on. Let's not take leave of our senses.

[Waitone]

Don't use the word "proof."

Those who will not believe are not inclined to believe anything regardless of the source.

Those who will believe are inclined to believe anything regardless of the source.

Those who opposed the war will immediately discount any evidence as planted.

Those who support the war will say WMD is just over the next hill.

Evidence of the inferiority of our culture. What we need is a mullah to tell us what to think.

[Jeff Thomas]

For me, the odds of Saddam Hussein not cooperating with radical Islamists are zero, zilch, nada.

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to believe there can be a link here. I agree ... it will come down to what people want to believe, period.

Regards from TX

[El Tejon]

Saddam played banker/broker/cutout for AQT from Saudi Arabia for a long time. No big deal, the Brits, the Euros and the CIA and DIA has known this for a long time. Now we have public confirmation of it.

I just wish they would publish the connection between AQT and Syria. God's Monkey House needs a good scrubbin'.

[DonQatU]

1. Nigeria - I have no clue. Please elaborate.

2. Provide evidence to disprove the multiple reports and pictures I saw of the seized tubes.

Even *IF* you are correct about the tubes, Iraq has a nuclear facility. (Sold to them by the french.)

Drjones, you might want to go back and review the "evidence" that Sec. of State Powell presented in his speech to the UN last February.

There were claims that Iraq was trying to buy yellowcake uranium from Nigeria. They had the documents to proove it! UNFORTUNATELY the documents were so poorly forged that they didn't even get the names of the agencies supposedly selling the yellowcake correct! These documents were furnished to the US by the INC. :rolleyes:

The aluminum tubes (that you saw with your own two eyes) looked surprisingly like the tubes they would use to manufacture 81mm rockets for the BM-21. This is what they were intended to be. This is a violation by Iraq, but they certainly were not intended to be used for uranium enrichment. :rolleyes:

And when did the French supply the Iraqis with that nuke facility? I assume you're talking about the one at Tuwaitha. Was that facility up and running after we bombed the snot out of it in 1991? If so, we should send a crew in there and secure the evidence! Why aren't we doing that? :rolleyes:

And remember the "poison factory" in Kurdish controlled northern Iraq run by Ansar al-Islami? We got control of that and guess what! NO RICIN! :rolleyes:

And the white powdery substance that they found and thought might be anthrax? Turned out to be ammonium nitrate! :rolleyes:

And those "mobile chemical/bio labs" they found burried? They contained equipment for the manufacture of conventional high explosives. :rolleyes:

And remember the chemical plant where they captured the "Iraqi general"? No evidence of chemical weapons being made there either! :rolleyes:

I could go on....... but I'm getting tired of typing! :cool:

Don

[ahenry]

And when did the French supply the Iraqis with that nuke facility? I assume you're talking about the one at Tuwaitha. Was that facility up and running after we bombed the snot out of it in 1991? If so, we should send a crew in there and secure the evidence! Why aren't we doing that? Done. Multiple preliminary tests on material there show it to be weapons-grade plutonium. Must have been planted by the CIA though. :rolleyes:

And remember the "poison factory" in Kurdish controlled northern Iraq run by Ansar al-Islami? We got control of that and guess what! NO RICIN! Documentation please. :rolleyes:

And those "mobile chemical/bio labs" they found burried? They contained equipment for the manufacture of conventional high explosives. Documentation please. :rolleyes:

And remember the chemical plant where they captured the "Iraqi general"? No evidence of chemical weapons being made there either! Documentation please.

People like yourself that just say whatever they want with zero documentation to substantiate it, get really tiresome. I am throwing down the gauntlet here. You want to pretend that all these findings have been retracted, then you’re gonna have to prove it. Show us what you got.


I could go on....... but I'm getting tired of typing! No need to go on, just go.

[DonQatU]

Done. Multiple preliminary tests on material there show it to be weapons-grade plutonium. Must have been planted by the CIA though.

Uh, ahenry........ you say weapons-grade PLUTONIUM?!!! :D

Multiple preliminary tests confirm that?!!!! :D

I'm afraid you are confused! Documentation? :D

TIA! Don

[Don Gwinn]

And today our forces tested barrels full of some substance--that tested positive as nerve and blister agents. To be fair, they tested it three times and one of the tests was inconclusive--only the other two were positive.

Now, was it planted, or were the tests faked? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Derek Zeanah]

Now, was it planted, or were the tests faked? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think the issue is that we were told by the administration (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html) that: President Bush, in his State of the Union address, described a vast Iraqi weapons program and talked about several mobile labs, 30,000 munitions, 500 tons of chemical weapons, 25,000 liters of anthrax and 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin. These weapons were supposedly deployed in the war and controlled by field commands that we have long since overrun — so where are they? (plagiarized from The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/22/opinion/22KRIS.html?ex=1051588800&en=28ec504ac5045bfe&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE))

So, we found 150 gallons of nasty stuff? Cool, we knew some had to be lying around there somewhere (though I'm still no fan of the on-site tests they do -- I'd like to see more precision). The question is whether the claims made by Bush were correct, or whether they were even made in good faith. I've got my doubts (but it's not worth getting in to that again).

As for proof that Saddam "worked with bin Ladin," I've got doubts about that too. If the report is correct, then it shows that Saddam Hussein (or someone under his command) made contact with someone from Al Quaida 5 years ago.

Doesn't portray him in a good light, but still no smoking gun. Certainly not enough to go to war over.

[DonQatU]

Be careful before jumping to conclusions, Don G. They said the same thing (cyclosarin/mustard) back on the 7th of April and later had to quietly back down. If they are wrong, you will hear nothing more about it. If they're right, the administration will beat the dead horse until it can be beat no more!

I'm no expert on Iraq's WMDs, but I do know a thing or two about various WMDs. Cyclosarin is usually stored in binary components which are mixed just before employment. Cyclosarin, when mixed, degrades fairly rapidly.

Oh, and ahenry, Iraq was trying to obtain weapons grade U-235........ not Pu-239. So I would find it very surprising indeed, if they found weapons grade Pu-239 like you stated! :D

Don Q

[ahenry]

Uh, ahenry........ you say weapons-grade PLUTONIUM?!!!
Multiple preliminary tests confirm that?!!!!
I'm afraid you are confused! Documentation?
I’m not the one that is confused or making outlandish claims. Normally I’d say “I asked you first, and you are the one saying the initial reports are wrong”. However, since I don’t think you will actually provide anything to substantiate your claims, I’ll go ahead and give you a small taste of the documentation I have. I’d be willing to provide a preponderance of information after you provide something to back up your assertions.


Article (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/specialreports/iraq/s_128508.html)

A scout team from the Pentagon's Defense Threat Reduction Agency arrived in a convoy Thursday at the Al-Tuwaitha nuclear complex...the Army specialists told the Marines they suspect Al-Tuwaitha harbors weapons-grade plutonium. Previously, it was believed by the International Atomic Energy Agency to hold uranium only for research purposes and no weapons-grade radioactive materials.


(Fox News reported much the same, only adding that two separate preliminary tests were performed on certain chemicals and those tests came back as weapons grade plutonium. I only used this one as the article in entirety is a bit better than the Fox News article.)

If they are wrong, you will hear nothing more about it. If they're right, the administration will beat the dead horse until it can be beat no more! No. I’ve already provided documentation in another thread of a reporter with one of the Mobile Exploitation Teams that has had the specifics of what has been found pulled out of articles for security purposes. Apparently you have never heard of operational security before.

I'm no expert on Iraq's WMDs, but I do know a thing or two about various WMDs. Well I can certainly attest that the first claim is true, the veracity of the latter remains to be seen. So far you’re not doing much for your credibility.

[ahadams]

uh Don Q. you are incorrect in that mustard/lewisite is NOT stored in binary form - indeed has never been. if you insist on miscatagorizing weapons, you will simply be ignored.

Also, you have entirely failed to adequately document any of your claims concerning other weapons grade chemicals AND you've failed adequately document any reason for the fact that you've chosen to completely ignore the strong possiblity of the passing of bioweapons and chemical weapons technology (which ain't that complex) to various terrorist groups and others of interest - especially now that they've already discovered more than one terrorist training camp in Iraq aimed at assisting "palestinians" and others.

As to you're distaste for Rupert Murdoch - who cares if you don't like him - his media outlets are still reliable. personal grievances against the publisher have no place in this discussion.

sheesh!

[DonQatU]

ahadams, you need to read more carefully! Go back to my post. I didn't say ANYTHING about mustard being binary!

Cyclosarin is usually stored in binary components which are mixed just before employment. Cyclosarin, when mixed, degrades fairly rapidly.

Wow! I know you don't like to hear what I say (the truth), but at least quote me accurately.

TIA! Don

[DonQatU]

ahenry, I read the article you posted! THEY DID SAY WEAPONS GRADE PLUTONIUM! :D

What morons! "Yellowcake" factory to produce "weapons grade plutonium????!!! So THAT's why them Iraqis wanted those anodized aluminum tubes! They wanted to use them to enrich "yellowcake" to plutonium! :rolleyes:

I'm sorry! You were telling the truth! They did report that! Obviously not rocket scientists!

If you could, would you please also provide the FOX link that reports the weapons grade plutonium!

I'll also provide the links you requested!

TIA! Don

[ahadams]

LOL! not sorry Don Q - you tried to lump them together, no sale

for the rest of you, here are some links that describe binary weapons fairly well:

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/byname/cbrne---nerve-agents-binary--gb2-vx2.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/coldwar/wasteside1.htm

now DonQ you can explain how yellowcake and any of the other nuclear materials available could not be used for a dirtybomb....

or are you intentionally ignoring that possibility?:scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

[DonQatU]

CBS News has just announced that the barrels found did NOT contain Sarin/Mustard.

Back to the drawing board!

Don Q

[DonQatU]

now DonQ you can explain how yellowcake and any of the other nuclear materials available could not be used for a dirtybomb....

Wow, I can't .........could you do that for me?

Could you also explain the difference between U-235 and and Pu-239?

Do you rattle "yellowcake" up and down in an anodized aluminum tube to make weapons grade plutonium?

Oh and BTW, Arlin....... it wasn't ME that claimed they found a mixture of Sarin and Mustard! :D

Keep digging, Watson! Don Q

[DonQatU]

April 28, 2003

Saddam link to al-Qaeda in doubt
By Michael Evans, Defence Editor



BRITISH Intelligence officials have expressed doubt that Saddam Hussein established any working relationship with al-Qaeda despite the discovery of documents showing that an “envoy” for Osama bin Laden visited Baghdad in 1998.
The documents were found by The Sunday Telegraph at the bombed-out Baghdad headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq’s Intelligence service, and were hailed yesterday as positive proof of an Iraqi link to al-Qaeda. They mentioned the arrival of a confidant of bin Laden who had travelled to Baghdad from Khartoum in March 1998. Bin Laden was based in Sudan until 1996.

Officials told The Times that there had been intelligence indicators about that time of a possible visit to Baghdad by someone purporting to represent al-Qaeda. There had been no evidence of any follow-up meetings to suggest that Baghdad had forged a long-term partnership with al-Qaeda.

According to The Sunday Telegraph report, the purpose of the March 1998 meeting was to establish a relationship on the basis of Iraq and al-Qaeda’s mutual hatred of the United States and Saudi Arabia. Because of the sensitivity of the meeting, the Iraqi agents who wrote the documents had covered bin Laden’s name with correcting fluid. Once it was removed, the name was visible, the report claimed.

There is pressure on Western Intelligence services to provide governments with their own assessment of the thousands of secret files that were abandoned when Saddam’s regime collapsed.

On the al-Qaeda link to Saddam’s regime, Britain has taken a robust line against the Americans who insist there was a connection. Washington gave the link as one of the reasons for toppling Saddam. Britain’s Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) has always rejected the idea of a link.

[WonderNine]

Originally posted by DonQatU
BUT.. the North Koreans don't have oil

That's one of the dumbest things I've heard lately :rolleyes:

[ahenry]

I’ve now asked you twice to back up your assertions, others have also asked you to do the same. You made several claims, you can go back and read what they are if you forgot, and you are now trying to dodge providing documentation of their accuracy. No more. Either admit that you were wrong or back your claims up. The choice is yours, but realize that the choice you make has repercussions. If you choose to continue to dodge this you will loose whatever credibility you might have had. You teeter on the brink of being dismissed as irrelevant in any future debates here on THR, although that is easily avoidable if you choose to. You are being given more than enough opportunity to avoid being seen as nothing but a noisy ignorant irritant, but you are fast loosing those opportunities. Just how many times must a person be asked to act like a man, before others decide that perhaps he is just a whining child?

[DonQatU]

OK, ahenry, which assertation would like me to back up?

Seriously, I'd be glad to answer your questions. So... what's your question??!

Don

PS - Oh, and wondernine....... North Korea has no oil and it would also be considerably harder to whup up on than Iraq.

[ahenry]

I don’t have any questions for you, I’m quite confident in the conclusions I have come to. All I ask is that you substantiate what you say. You have made several blatant claims regarding Iraq, Bush and WMD. From the beginning all I’ve been asking from you is for you to back them up. I will assume that you are a big boy here and can go back and read what you wrote previously if you’re confused about what assertions you made. Its all in black and white and simple sentences. Read your claims and then provide the documentation. Easy request, but something tells me you will obfuscate and dodge the issue and never provide anything to back up your claims.

[DonQatU]

Frankly, ahenry. I don't think I should have to provide you with footnotes on facts that can easily be found with a simple google search.

I know YOU don't want to limit your challenges to my assertations to a specific topic/subject. So I'll pick one topic that you had a problem believing and show you how you can find out the information yourself.

First....... go to google.com! Type in key words of the topic you would like to find out about.

Example: anodized aluminum tubes Iraq

Then check out the answers!

Don

[Drjones]

Frankly, ahenry. I don't think I should have to provide you with footnotes on facts that can easily be found with a simple google search. That's nice that you feel that way, but you are wrong.

The onus is on YOU to back up YOUR assertions with facts.

[DonQatU]

The onus is on YOU to back up YOUR assertions with facts.

Fair enough, drjones! Which one of my assertations are you challenging?

Oh, by the way..... have you noticed the silence in the media about the recent find of sarin/mustard?

NY Times had an article on the false positive, but it's like I said......... If found false, it would be dropped immediately. If found true, the dead horse would be beaten beyond recognition by the neocons.

Don

[ahenry]

Frankly, ahenry. I don't think I should have to provide you with footnotes on facts that can easily be found with a simple google search.
Hmmm, what was it that I said about you obfuscating and dodging the issue? Look, I personally don’t care one way or the other about you backing up your claims. In fact, I never thought that you would do so no matter how many times you were asked to, for the simple reason that you can’t. You made not one but eight different assertions about Iraq and WMD (not counting the ones about Bush pushing for war because of oil, and that the connection between al Queda and Saddam being “laughable”) and so far you have provided one piece of documentation from the UK expressing “doubt” as to the connection between Saddaam and al Queda (one of the ten or more assertions you have made in this thread). That is a far cry from making the original article “laughable” and in fact it hardly even refutes anything, just somebody expressing “doubt”, but hey, its more than anything else you’ve provided. All the rest of your claims and assertions remain unsubstantiated and I suspect will continue to remain so. As I said, feel free to continue to dodge our requests, but don’t be surprised when nobody here takes anything you say as more than annoying noise.

[DonQatU]

You made not one but eight different assertions about Iraq and WMD (not counting the ones about Bush pushing for war because of oil, and that the connection between al Queda and Saddam being “laughable”) and so far you have provided one piece of documentation from the UK expressing “doubt” as to the connection between Saddaam and al Queda (one of the ten or more assertions you have made in this thread).

Well, now we're getting somewhwere! You claim I've made eight different assertions about Iraq and WMDs. Which one (or all) of my statements are you challenging?

It's simple. Point out the specific assertation and ask your question!

Oh, and yes...... OIL was a major reason for the war. Not the only one in the grand plan, but one of the very important ones!

Don

[DonQatU]

Why does the Pentagon keep releasing the "preliminary" information on WMD "discoveries" before the test results are confirmed and later prove to be totally false?

These reports aren't aimed at journalists or news junkies. Rather, they are designed to build up a vague impression among casual news consumers that we've been finding WMD all over the place. Say it often enough, and everyone starts to get foggy about which reports panned out and which didn't - or even whether any of them did. Most people are simply left with the idea that we have lots of busy teams spread out all over Iraq and they keep finding stuff.

Don

[Waitone]

Initial reports are coming out of embedded reporters who talk with local commanders. Local commanders get their information from their grunts who test with screening tests. Screening tests are designed to have a false positive bias. They will read positive because the test was designed to error on the side that will save lives.

Final and determinative testing requires an analytical lab with expensive equipment and more time than the news cycle demands.

If there is confusion as to what reality is I suggest pointing a finger at our friends in the media. Remember, they are paid to get the story first. They receive no kudos for getting is right. They must feed the monster (24 hour news cycle) or they will be eaten.

That don't make it right. That makes it the way it is.

[DonQatU]

Those barrels contained rocket fuel! Don

[ahenry]

Well, now we're getting somewhwere! You claim I've made eight different assertions about Iraq and WMDs. Which one (or all) of my statements are you challenging?...Why does the Pentagon keep releasing the "preliminary" information on WMD "discoveries" before the test results are confirmed and later prove to be totally false? And yet more dodging. You give new meaning to the term weaseling out of something. You made the claims Don. You now have to provide the documentation supporting your claims. I am not going to hold your hand like a little child. The onus is on you. And will remain on you no matter how hard you try to dodge it.

[ahenry]

Those barrels contained rocket fuel! Don What does that bring us up to now, 9 plus unsupported assertions? Your hole is getting deeper and deeper...

[DonQatU]

Oh, man! ahenry, you are one silly dude! Check the New York Times for information on #9 Assertion! :D

Ask Cpt. Ryan Cutchin if you don't believe that's what Mobile Exploitation Team Bravo found in Baiji! :D

Don

PS - LTC Ted "I'm satisfied that it's sarin" Martin better start looking for a new job! :D

PPS - Well that's one assertion out of the way. What was the NEXT "assertion" you wanted me to prove? :D

[DonQatU]

Only NOW are troops posted on that scary nuke plant at Tuwaitha to prevent looters from carrying away all that "weapons grade plutonium" for their "dirty bombs"!

I thought it would have been a higher priority target if they thought they had weapons grade "stuff" there!

Don

[Jrob24]

I'm wondering how those that feel convinced that Saddam didn't have WMD, why was he jerking the UN inspectors around in 1998?

[Jeff Thomas]

Oh, now don't go on that way ... he was on such a colorful, self righteous roll ... ;)

[ahenry]

Don, are those posts supposed to be some sort of documentation? Documentation generally comes in the form of some sort of document. You know, articles, journals, books, TV reports, transcripts of briefings, things of that nature. If what you claim is true then finding documentation to back it up should be easy. I am (and the rest of us) still waiting for something to substantiate your 10 odd assertions.


Oh, now don't go on that way ... he was on such a colorful, self righteous roll ...;)
:confused:

[DonQatU]

ahenry, several posts back I told you of the article in the NEW YORK POST.

But just for you, ahenry, here's the link to Newsweek article.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/906443.asp?0cv=KB20#BODY

Next time...... you can do a google search on your own........ just like I showed you! :rolleyes:

Don

[ahenry]

One out of ten, you’re getting there! :rolleyes:

BTW, I am more than adapt at using google as well as a host of other research tools. That I can research and support the assertions I make isn’t the point however.