Value of Ammo upon Civil Disorder

[atlctyslkr]

I am considering taking up reloading for the cost effectiveness as well as the fact that if there was a mass domestic breakdown ammo could become valuable. Having such a skill and an inventory of wares make make that time a little easier. People that have something to offer in such a time will probably fare better. (too bad I'm not a doctor). Has anyone else thought of this? I assume that having 38 special, 12 gauge, could make great for trade.

Just about every gun owner I know has a .22. While I have never heard of reloading a .22 it's easy to store alot. 22's could be used to ward off pets gone wild and other undesireable animals.

Welcome any thoughts or constructive comments.

[Sharpdogs]

I thought about the same thing back in 1999. Unfortunately I did not have the time or room to reload, so I stocked up on bricks of .22.

[1 old 0311]

Not a bad idea, but I am more for stocking up for trade. Ammo, AND a few cheap 12 guage, and Hi-Points?????

Kevin

[GLOCK19XDSC]

Things to keep in mind:

"I have long preached that one should never be caught short in his personal armament, either in regard to the weapons or the ammunition. Keep up your supply, and do not neglect the 22 rimfire, which may well turn into the "ballistic wampum" I have spoken of the past. If you have any loading equipment, stock primers, which may constitute the weakest link in the chain." ~ Jeff Cooper

"I hear that small arms ammunition in South Africa has practically disappeared from the store shelves. Either people are wisely stocking up, or some arm of the government has decided to cut off the supply. In that regard, I advise you to keep your own stocks in good shape. Our enemies may not be able to abrogate the constitution just yet, but there are economic and political means by which they may dry up our ammunition supply." ~ Jeff Cooper

[Pilgrim]

Sounds like a great idea if you don't advertise the fact to your 'friends'. When the SHTF, you will find out which of your 'friends' were too cheap and too lazy to stock up beforehand and now consider you a resupply point. They will be astonished and angered that you expect something worthwhile in trade.

Pilgrim

[NavajoNPaleFace]

I'm for the idea of stockpiling myself.

Should the ammo become a commodity the person wanting it will surely want it then not later after you reload it.

Also remember that if the SHTF and ammo becomes a bartering tool, and if people are aware of your stockpile, you will be a prime target for someone trying to take it from you.

Be prepared to baby sit the goods and/or have a good alarm system.:D

[Oldtimer]

LOADED ammo is less dangerous than canisters or boxes of gunpowder and primers that haven't been seated in casings.

Ammo as a "bartering" item? I used to think that way, but....why GIVE someone ammo for a loaf of bread or other item? That's almost like telling them, "Here's the ammo you need to shoot me!"

In a full-bore disaster, there will be nothing "civil" about it! Friends, and even relatives, might turn against you....just to survive! The term "dead meat" might become reality, when people are starving and have no other means of surviving other than to resort to cannibalism!

Survival "bartering" should be done with edible items OR necessary skills. Long-term survival may end up with skilled gardeners coming out on top! Vegetable seeds may become "gold"! Ammunition might be necessary to use to keep the poachers away from your "veggie" garden! By "bartering" your ammo away, you're GIVING the poachers a way to TAKE your food away without having to do any of the hard work!

With the way that the laws are, regarding the amount of gunpowder and primers that one can have on-hand at any given time, those laws are limiting you, as a reloader, for long-term ammo availability. I don't know of ANY law, anywhere, that limits the amount of LOADED ammo a person can legally have on-hand! Reload for GOOD ammo to have on-hand, and store it properly. If the case necks and primers are sealed (cheap fingernail polish works), then stored properly, it will out-last YOU!

[Preacherman]

If ammo's going to be a monetary equivalent, I reckon I'm going to be a millionaire . . . :D

[308win]

IMHO, Oldtimer pretty well summed up the argument for not using ammunition as barter. I for one would be very chapped if some of my reloading handiwork was used to do me in.

[Lou629]

Maybe not as 'currency' per se, but i can see where having some extra ammo 'to spare', as opposed to outright bartering, might have beneficial results for all concerned. An example would be my nearest neighbor. He's got several guns that use the same caliber ammo as mine do. I doubt he has a lot of extra ammo lying around however, because he has 3 kids to feed over there, and he and his wife are just barely making it. In a real feces-fanning-festival, i know i could count on him to watch my back, and vice-versa, so having some extra ammo on hand to help him helps me as well. I'm sure it would be the same with food or water too, in either direction. So you could make a case for having some extra ammo as a 'bankroll' of sorts, just as you could with a few extra boxes, bags or cans of food or bottled water.

[Korimyr the Rat]

The value of ammunition is always based on the net worth of the people you're using it on. I agree with the other posters-- the only people you should give ammo to are people you trust enough to give it to them for free.

[jeepmor]

I don't quit stocking up until the Mike's range bag is full. I stuffed so much in it recently I can't even transport the pistols in their range rug any more. Pure bliss......

Having a neighbor I can trust is pretty sweet too. We use the same caliber handgun, .45, and both have the same squeak terrorizing long guns, .223 REM. So, we'd be pretty good to start considering we both keep about 20# of ammo of applicable flavors on hand. I also have enough reloading stock to keep me busy for many, many days, if not weeks of constant lever pulling antics.

I'm not worried in that regard.

[Mannlicher]

I just finished fixing up another old Sentinal safe to store bulk ammo in. I like these fairly cheap Wally World key lock steel cabinets for this. I frame them up, and put in shelves. With about 800 rounds per .30 cal ammo can, you can store a lot of stuff in the converted gun safe.
I have a fair supply of ammunition for my guns, but as to what I would do with it in time of need, well, the situation then would dictate that.

[AJAX22]

Is there a safe way to store large quantities of primers? of all the elements I'd be most worried about spontanious detonation with 5 pounds of primers sitting togeather.

Is there a way to reload .22 rimfire? it would seem to me like ultimately the ability to create primers from scratch, and the ability to reload .22 would be the most valuable asset to have in the long run.

there are alot more .22's out there chewing through ammo than any other caliber. I believe it would be the first to run out, regardless of how much is stockpiled, it is the most efficent for non combat survival hunting, which I suspect would be reduced to eventually.

[Husker1911]

Bartering ammo? Are you nuts? A gazillion other items highly suited for the bartering system. Y2K didn't come to pass, but I didn't buy toilet paper until 2002.

[Lou629]

Ajax,
I feel it may just as well go the opposite way with the .22LR. With all the billions upon billions of rounds that have been produced for .22 over the years, i'd be somewhat surprised if the lowly .22 wasn't all anyone had left anymore a few years after the end of the world as we know it. Once most folks have been reduced to bows & arrows or slingshots once again, the humble & under-rated .22 may become the defacto long range weapon of choice in the brave new world. Or food for thought anyway...lol...

[Bart Noir]

When the end of mankind comes to pass, all that is left is cockroaches, wondering what they can do with all those .22 rounds.

Bart Noir

[Lou629]

Bart,
that could be a real possibility too, lol

[1911Tuner]

Ajax...Yes. Store primers in their original containers in a cool, dry place out of direct sun...preferably in an air-tight outer container where temperatures remain fairly constant, and changes gradually. i.e. Don't move them suddenly from below zero into a room with a wood stove cookin' on high. I use .50 caliber ammo cans to store primers in a dark corner of the shop. A fire-proof safe would also add a lot of security.

[Mannlicher]

so far as I know Ajax, there is no practical way to reload .22 rimfire ammo. As others have mentioned, even if it were possible, its just not worth the effort, when for a small outlay now, you can hoard as many of those as you could shoot in a lifetime.

[Cacique500]

If ammo's going to be a monetary equivalent, I reckon I'm going to be a millionaire . . .

+1 We'll do lunch at the club... :p

preferably in an air-tight outer container where temperatures remain fairly constant, and changes gradually.

Interesting...I've read that it's better to keep them in their original container and not in a sealed metal container...if they do go off in the ammo can, you just made yourself a large shrapnel bomb. YMMV. Mine are on top of a shelf indoors, out of direct sunlight and in their original packaging (cardboard box holding 5000 primers/box)

[50 Freak]

Screw ammo. In a SHTF scenario, you're better off with cases of alcohol and cigs are bartering material.

Keep the ammo for yourself. But I do suggest buying a few thousand (like 5 - 10,000 rounds of 22lr) and a couple of good 22 rifles. That will feed you for years.

[Burt Blade]

You cannot easily reload .22 rimfire rounds. However, there is a cool gadget that will convert a .22LR casing into the jacket needed to make your own full metal jacket .223 bullets.

You probably are not going to be able to cook up your own primers, unless you really get into chemistry and stock tools ahead of time. However, you can learn to make workable gun flints with a bit of practice, and things you can find in many places. You can prime a flintlock with the same powder you use for the main charge. If you know what you are doing (and are quite careful) you can make fine priming powder from course rifle black powder.

For the long-term "the end of the world as we know it", the guys with the flintlock hobby may well be sitting pretty.

[1911Tuner]

> metal container...if they do go off in the ammo can, you just made yourself a large shrapnel bomb.<
**********************

Well, yeah...if ya have a fire.:eek: Okay. Airtight plastic container...like an action locker would do.

[meef]

Husker1911:Y2K didn't come to pass, but I didn't buy toilet paper until 2002.
So.... the S obviously didn't HTF as predicted back then - but if it had, you were clearly well prepared to wipe it off.

:D

[Husker1911]

LOL, Meef! LOL.

The point being that there are other items far more suitable for swapping. Someone mentioned liquor and cigarettes. (Anyone ever read "Lucifer's Hammer?). I thought TP would be worth quite a lot, if the supply chain breaks down. Yeah, we've got plenty of corncobs here, but imagine what an 8-pak of Northern would be worth after six months?

FWIW, booze, cigs, Bic lighters, spices, dry roasted nuts, and MREs all come to mind. The last thing I'd barter is the very product that could then be used to kill me.

[beachbreak]

On 9/11 where I lived, stores like Walmart, Kmart, and Sports Authority pulled all their ammo off their shelves. I learned then, that ammo will be scarce in a time of crisis. I continue to stock up every now an then even if I have more than enough on-hand.

[Husker1911]

:confused: Gee, we wouldn't want law-abiding Americans to be able to defend themselves. ::sarcasm::

Why would they pull their ammo?

[Trebor]

It's very common to cities to ban the sale of firearms, ammo, or even gasoline during civil unrest. It happened in the 60's in Detroit and it happened again during the LA riots. Even if you have a firearm, don't count on being able to buy ammo. Even if the disturbance is relatively localized, and stores in the larger area are open, ammo might be pulled from the shelves.

I used to have to run out and buy a couple boxes before every range trip and didn't make an effort to keep any on hand. When I heard some stories from friends about the LA riots, and learned that the city cut off ammo sales, I realized that could happen to me. Now, I always have at least *some* on hand. Buying in bulk helps. It's cheaper and you don't go through it as fast.

[JohnKSa]

I would think components are harder to store, more easily damaged/perishable and would take up more space than loaded rounds.

Is all your reloading equipment (including your scale, case trimmer, tumbler, etc.) hand operated--not electrical?

Do you have your reloading equipment located in an area where natural light is available so that you can load if the electricity is off?

If the answer to either of the last two questions is no, do you have a generator and have you stored the fuel to operate it as necessary or will the equipment run off batteries and have you stored a sufficient quantity of batteries?

What happens if you need to leave your home? How much of your reloading equipment could you transport easily. Could you use it out of your vehicle if necessary?

I think if you add it all up, it's probably wiser to stock up on loaded ammunition if you really think things are going to go south.

[Lou629]

A big +1 to that last line of yours. One can easily stock up on factory loads for most common calibers for the same price, and in some cases even less than reloading, if one looks for sales in the big-box stores and/or buys in bulk. Factory loads will keep for decades on the shelf without a problem, as long as you make sure they're kept dry. I've personally fired centerfire & rimfire loads that were more than 30 years old when i used them, and not one failed to go bang.
If you're firing some hard-to-get exotic caliber or other, then reloading makes a lot of sense. Some stuff is extremely expensive and hard to find under normal circumstances. But if you're using the most common calibers out there like 30/30, 12Ga., .357/.38, 9mm, then factory ammo is the way to go. Buy it cheap and stack it deep!

[bdcochran]

Don't reload.

1. it is messy;
2. you assume that you will have plenty of time. wait until you live the old style way - up at dawn, to bed at dark, walking everywhere, having to do a lot of things for yourself, hauling water.
3. your reloads will be inferior to factory loads;
4. the stuff is heavy and not portable;
5. if someone "buys" your reloads, they won't command the price of factory ammo.

There will always be someone who claims
1. he has never reloaded a bad round;
2. his reloads are better than factory ammo;
3. he has never s--tcanned a number of his reloads as bad;
4. he values his time at $20 an hour and still comes out ahead of the cost of buying factory or commercial reloads.

When you find him, buddy up - why-because he is a great salesman.

[1911Tuner]

Agree with John. By the time you haul the bulk and weight of reloading equipment and components, you could haul a helluva lotta loaded ammo.
Ammo can be bartered, but only if you're very careful as to whom...where the deal is made...and whether you've got people covering your six...and how much ammo you carry to the deal. A half-dozen rounds would make starting a fight with you in a heist attempt less attractive than 2-3 hundred rounds.

Other likely hard-to-find/barterable goods would include:

Toilet paper. Rubbing alcohol. Matches. Bandages/Band-Aids. Vitamins. Coffee. Tobacco. Wide-spectrum antibiotics. Sugar. Flour. Batteries.

The list can go on. Look up anybody who lived through the rationing during WWII and ask them what they would have given their eye teeth for.

[Dave R]

Two points.

1) On the POTENTIAL value of stockpiled ammo. What's the most value it could bring? If society is well and truly broken, but game is available, then a single round of .22 is the equivalent of a main course for 2 at dinner. And a single centerfire rifle round is the equivalent of a 3-6 month supply of meat. That's a lot of value for a single cartridge, but that's what its potentially worth as food. For protection? I dunno. What's a life worth?

2) On reloading. As an experienced reloader I can believe that the weight and portability of reloading equipment is an issue. And moving components (powder, cases, bullets and primers) is a lot harder than moving loaded ammo. OTOH, in the short term, and before any crash, you can load up twice or 3X the inventory of ammo for the same cost as commercial ammo, with the exception of .223, 9mm and .308 surplus. So, if you plan to acquire 1,000 rounds of .30-30, I can guarantee you that buying the (basic) equipment and components will cut your finished costs significantly.

Now, if you buy a $1k progressive press and digital powder measure, ignore the above.

[kid_couteau]

Hi Folks

I believe in doing both myself. But not just for bad times. I do it now because of last year and this year.

I stocked up on 7.62x39 last year and do not regret it. It is tough to get this year.

But I also bought the stuff to reload it

I am doing the same with 223 this year.

How do I save money? I dont as far as time goes but if you figure that I can trade for brass cheaply. And I buy molds for most of my guns so I can cast my own bullets from wheel weights.

I have also found it is easier right now to buy components then it is to buy ammo in some calibers

Just sharin
Kid

[SomeKid]

With the way that the laws are, regarding the amount of gunpowder and primers that one can have on-hand at any given time, those laws are limiting you, as a reloader, for long-term ammo availability. I don't know of ANY law, anywhere, that limits the amount of LOADED ammo a person can legally have on-hand! Reload for GOOD ammo to have on-hand, and store it properly. If the case necks and primers are sealed (cheap fingernail polish works), then stored properly, it will out-last YOU!

Oldtimer, I haven't gotten into reloading yet, but I never had heard of laws regarding how much you can have on reloading supplies. Are they federal, state, or local? Just curious.

[WayneConrad]

"... I never had heard of laws regarding how much you can have on reloading supplies. Are they federal, state, or local? Just curious."

Local. In Phoenix, we can have up to 5 pounds of powder and up to 5000 primers, if I recall.

[Guntotingreen]

I have it on great authority that you can fit roughly 512 rounds of 12 gauge 2.75" or 3" ammo into one of the 3 gallon plactic pails from the local supermarket bakery. Ask them for a few with lids. They are happy to give them away, as they are usually bound for the dumpster. They smell a bit like donuts, which could be a plus. I've stocked enough 12 gauge ammo from local sales to last my lifetime, unless things get weird. Simply pull the shells from their boxes and stack them alternating up and down. After you fill each layer, plop a cardboard disc in place to provide a stable surface for the next level. Seal the lid, and you ammo is stored safely. I've got stacks of different shells, reloading components, and my MEC stashed away in my normally humid shop.

[Lou629]

I'm all for creative & compact storage of ammo, and yours sounds like it could be a good idea so far. I'm curious about this though. That's like 20 boxes of shells per container in round numbers. Any esitmate for us on what one of these things weighs when it's full?

I'm thinking along the lines of how far do you think you could get with one, within reason, if you had to grab one and run like the devil?

Watch out for that humidity in the shop man. The first rule of storing ammo for any length of time is keeping it dry. Being exposed to very high humidity year after year is not the best location or solution for long-term storage.

[armoredman]

Phoenix must have weird rules - AZ state law is 50 pounds. Wonder if the state pre-emption law comes into play, as ammo components COULD be considered 'arms"...

[Lupinus]

I am all for stocking up for myself, family, and closest friends that may as well be family.

Anyone else? Hell if I'm gonan give them the tool to kill me and take what I stockpiled.

[Igloodude]

don't reload

I'd suggest making those points of yours here instead:

THR Reloading forum (http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15)

So that they can refute them without threadjacking the heck out of this thread.

[dav]

Many of you worried about bartering ammo that might be used to kill you don't read much science fiction, where TEOTWAWKI happens frequently.

Things stabilize. You have farmers, hunters, and protectors.

As the armed person, you will be a protector. But you may have to 'give' .22 ammo to the hunters if you want to eat well.

You keep the 'anti-personnel' rounds for yourself, but unless you want to leave your stash unguarded, you let someone else do your hunting.

Just my .02

[Doggieman]

I would think the *skill* of reloading would be a better bartering tool than a huge stockpile of ammo. You make just enough that people won't want to kill you because then they'd be out. If you have a huge amount of factory then you actually become a liability to yourself rather than an asset, because it will be easier for people to kill you than exchange with you. Your skill would die with you.

Also with a huge stockpile of .22s the problem is that .22s are more susceptible to moisture and I can see after a few years your whole stash might be unusable.

[Lou629]

Just keep those .22's DRY my friend, and they will last for decades. I have personally shot hundreds of them that were at least 30 years old when i used them. Not one failed to go bang.

[JohnKSa]

My post wasn't necessarily saying that one shouldn't reload.

I'm just saying that if you want to stock up on something, stock up on loaded ammo, not components.

You can stock up on loaded ammo by buying a lot of factory ammo, or by reloading a bunch of your own.

I'm just saying that once things really start to go bad, it seems to me that having a lot of loaded ammo is FAR more practical than having the means to make a lot of it.

[seeker_two]

Just another thing to consider...from a reloader....

Make sure your gun's functioning isn't too dependent on precise OAL, powder charge, clean-burning powder, etc. if you're planning to rely on reloads.

That's why I typically stay away from semi-autos as SHTF choices... :D

[mbt2001]

errrr....

Some of you guys need to read Alas Babylon again. In the depression, 50 rnd boxes of .22lr were used a currency of sorts. Those things need to be carefully considered.

I do not agree with everything on the site listed here, but he has some interesting points. Obviously it is worth thinking about. http://www.alpinesurvival.com/guns-to-grab.htm

[Cosmoline]

It doesn't take civil disorder. Ammo can function as cash money during *ANY* shortage. It runs out fast. In the third world AK's are cheap but 7.62x39 is expensive. The fellas shooting at the moon are usually militia with ammo supplied to them or stolen. Even stateside, when there's a shortage or possible shortage ammo can work just like cash. I bought a Star BM with some 7.62x39 last month.

Folks seem to think that as soon as there's a problem everyone will turn into ravening madmen. This is mythology. Take Katrina for example. Even in the worst parts of NOLA the stories of warlords taking over and shooting cops turned out to be complete fabrication. The COPS were the ones acting like animals. Ordinary people may not behave well during a crisis, but that doesn't mean the'll take the ammo you just bartered and kill you with it. That's purile fantasy.

[mbt2001]

Cosmo,

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do not think that the stories of the violence in New Orleans were fabrications. I think that the MEDIA is trying to white wash it at the direction of "the man". Seriously, who wants to believe that the mask of society can slip to that extent when faced with a serious crisis, but over and over again you see it happen in affected areas.

[Cosmoline]

Well I can tell you the supposed "snipers" who were allegedly shooting at the CNN film crew was a myth. They were trying to get the crew's attention to get food aid and help, and the cops at "Fort Apache" responded by raining lead down on them. It was a travesty.

I've lived far from the reach of laws, in areas of the state where no trooper sets foot for years at an end. It does change people, but it doesn't turn them into psychopaths.

[mbt2001]

errrr... That wasn't what I meant.

I was talking about the looting of stores, the burglary of Museums and the engaging of professional gangs by the "authorities"... That is what is trying to be white washed.

The idiot film crew was obviously trying to be signaled.

[Gewehr98]

Don't reload.

1. it is messy;
2. you assume that you will have plenty of time. wait until you live the old style way - up at dawn, to bed at dark, walking everywhere, having to do a lot of things for yourself, hauling water.
3. your reloads will be inferior to factory loads;
4. the stuff is heavy and not portable;
5. if someone "buys" your reloads, they won't command the price of factory ammo.

There will always be someone who claims
1. he has never reloaded a bad round;
2. his reloads are better than factory ammo;
3. he has never s--tcanned a number of his reloads as bad;
4. he values his time at $20 an hour and still comes out ahead of the cost of buying factory or commercial reloads.

When you find him, buddy up - why-because he is a great salesman.

As somebody who reloads for 24 different chamberings, with 3 progressive, 3 single-stage, and 2 handheld reloading presses, perhaps you should do some homework before coming up with those kinds of statements.

As stated above, that bit of silliness should be directed to the Handloading forum here at THR, it would generate many chuckles, I'm sure. I've reloaded ammo in deer camp with a handheld press or two, and while out in the field on a prairie dog shoot I even had a Dillon mounted on my truck's tailgate. I maintain at least 1000 rounds of each caliber on hand, and were ammo to become a commodity, I'm certain my skills at reloading and bullet casting/lubing/sizing would keep me in gasoline/diesel/kerosene, as well as some other necessities I'd have to barter for. I'm even experimenting in making BP, so about the only thing I'd want for is primers, something I have easily stockpiled for the last 25+ years, along with brass, milsurp jacketed bullets, and wheel weights for cast bullets.

BTW, everybody knows you're not a reloader if you haven't disassembled at least one round that wasn't up to specs. Were it not for my fear of civil liabilities with personal defensive ammo, I'd use nothing by handloads, my own ammo is indeed better than factory, accuracy-wise and terminal performance-wise, demonstrated on paper and chronograph time and time again. Were civil disorder to become rampant, I'd even consider handloading my own defensive ammo, and even selling my handloads, liability laws and ammo manufacturing FFL requirements would be pretty much forgotten as the civilized world fell apart around you. As for my $20/hr rate for making ammo, inflation will make paper money essentially useless, so who cares? Among other durable goods and foodstuffs, ammo will be the new currency for barter, and considerably easier to maneuver and store long-term than a satchel full of chickens or bushel of potatoes.

Likewise, were civil disobedience to become rampant, just which store do you think will have ample supplies of ammunition or guns, ready to buy as folks panic and buy stuff by the caseload (kinda like the run on 7.62x39 now)? How much do you think they'd charge per case, let alone a measly box of 20 rounds? I'll give you a hint, it won't be WalMart or Sports Authority, they dried up right quick during the Y2K scare and also during the hurricane seasons of the last few years. Online internet suppliers like CheaperThanDirt, AmmoMan, and Sportsman's Guide may only be accessible as long as their connectivity stays turned on. Guess what, the local Ammosmith is gonna be a popular guy, just like his gunsmith buddy.

The only downside to being a handloader in one of those TEOTWAWKI situations is that you may become a juicy target for ne'er-do-well types, and have to maintain some darned good situational awareness to survive in that environment. But you would have to be at least somewhat savvy to survive in that environment, anyway. ;)

[Lou629]

If handloading works in your situation more power to you. As for myself, give me factory loads every time. One doesn't save enough money to interest me in it purely from that perspective alone, which is a common argument for it. In fact there are factory loads such as 9mm that can readily beat reloading in the price column most of the time, while 12Ga., .38 spl, and 30/30, are on sale so often around hunting season that the prices for them are on par with reloading. So i always buy them cheap and stack them deep.

The one time i'd readily see a real use for reloading is if i were shooting some exotic caliber that was hard to find, or expensive, or both. All the guns i have are chambered in commonly available calibers precisely for the reason that they have always been the most commonly available and inexpensive, and i intend to keep it that way. ( Besides, i'm too old to start changing now. )

As far as quality & reliability goes, well, anyone can claim anything at all. However i have never once met anyone that was that good at it. Not saying it can't be done, but i haven't met him yet.

Finally, regarding reliability, I have personally shot hundreds of factory centerfire and rimfire loads that sat in my attic for over three decades before i used them all, without one failure. When someone can show me proof that their handloads can sit on a shelf somewhere for thirty years or more and then have no failures to fire, i will be duly impressed.

Edit, typo. 6/15

[Gewehr98]

My .45 ACP 200gr SWC handloads cost me $2.50 per box of 50, my brass, too. My 115gr FMJ 9mm Luger handloads are only slightly more than that, also per box of 50. Cast bullet 9mm handloads for my P-08 Luger go even cheaper. I'd absolutely hate to buy my 500gr .45-70 Creedmoor BP match loads from factory vendors, the price is $30.00 a box of 20 for Goex Black Dawge 500gr rounds, that's outrageous!

I've got a 1000-yard interdiction rifle in a wildcat 6.5-06 chambering that'll put 5 rounds into 1/4" at 100 yards, and has put 10 rounds into 10" at 1000 yards, on good days 8" at 1000 yards. It's not a benchrest gun, I hunt with it, varmint with it, and even centerpunched a golf ball at 500 meters cold bore. Think myself or the benchrest community really want to depend on WalMart white box ammo?

As for old handloads, they'll work just fine, no worse than military ammo. I bought a very nice Remington 700 BDL Custom Deluxe in .30-06 from a friend 2 years ago. He gave me tons of ammo for the rifle, all stuff he'd loaded in the early 1960s when he was shooting at Camp Perry and out west. I've been shooting rounds from a large batch of 180gr Nosler Partitions that he loaded in 1961, and, horror of horrors, each and every one of them went "bang", and they grouped quite nicely, to boot. My oldest batch of 8mm Mauser handloads only date to 1975 or so, done with a Lee Loader kit under my Dad's supervision, so they barely make that 30 year thing, although through the years they've done just fine on whitetail and mule deer. Did you really believe the urban legend that primers and components have a definitive shelf life? I'll be more than happy to videotape the next range visit, I'll bring that 1961-dated ammo out and demonstrate the beauty that is zero duds.

If you don't like handloading or handloaders, or don't want to spend the time making quality ammo or seeing tighter groups, then fine. Say so, instead of trying to tell handloaders that their reasons for the practice are not founded in reality. That's being disingenuous at best, and rude at worst.

[Lou629]

If you don't like handloading or handloaders, or don't want to spend the time making quality ammo or seeing tighter groups, then fine. Say so, instead of trying to tell handloaders that their reasons for the practice are not founded in reality. That's being disingenuous at best, and rude at worst.

WTF??
If you were to calm down and re-read the first two lines of my post, that's exactly what i did. I'll repost it here as you are obviously too prone to excitement to find it yourself: If handloading works in your situation more power to you. As for myself, give me factory loads every time.

As far as 'founded in reality' goes, that quote is all yours my over-sensitive friend, i never said any such thing. I think you need to calm down a bit. I also think you may have my post confused with post #32 by BDCochran. Try checking your target & backstop before you spout off, and btw: methinks thou really doth protest too much anyway!

Edit: spelling,6/15

[Gewehr98]

Namely, that handloaded ammo is any less reliable than factory fodder. I've shot handloads that were 30, 40, even 50 years old, and there was no problem. However, I've also encountered duds from military and commercial ammo, both old and new.

Do you suppose the quality and reliability of the ammo has something to do with how much attention our ammo guy is paying at the machine, whether he be at home, on the line at Lake City Arsenal, or Olin's Winchester ammo facility in East Alton, IL?

Referencing those oddly-reliable 40 year-old handloads I mention above, they are my dad's. A funny thing, he retired from another government-owned ammo plant a few years ago, and you should ask him how many thousands of rounds their internal inspectors rejected over the course of a year.

The other untruth I protested was that handloading wasn't economical. I didn't climb the IPSC, IHMSA, and NRA High Power ranks by selling my children and burning through thousands of rounds of factory ammo, and while you were busy telling me I protest too much, I must've missed your price quote matching or even approaching my own prices for handloaded 9mm and .45 ACP ammo.

Back on topic with the thread, a good read on how ammo would become the currency of choice during times of civil disorder is "Patriots", by James Wesley Rawles.

[Lou629]

You can claim whatever you like my friend, as can we all. As i said in an earlier post: what works for you is fine with me, just not FOR me. As far as costs go, i have not only met but beaten your 9mm costs soundly, ( right up to this current round of price increases that seem to be happening every day lately ) but we're all paying higher prices these days, whether you want to admit yours or not. In any case i have enough of it stacked away to last me thru any emergency, which is what this thread was all about originally anyway.

Go ahead and reload to your hearts' content friend, but don't preach to me about accuracy or cost. If i can hold a quarter-sized three shot group @ 100yards with my rifle & factory ammo i'm a very happy camper. If that group got to dime-sized through reloading what would the real difference be in practical terms? Being an extremely happy camper? You go ahead and be that then. All that time, energy & money wasted to yield a couple of millimeters difference in results over that distance is just waaay too anal for me.

[1911Tuner]

On topic gentlemen!

I've had a few...very few...duds and squibs from fresh, name-brand factory ammo. Anything that is mass produced is subject to a mistake. In almost 40 years, I've had exactly one misfire from my own handloads, and zero squibs.
I load on a single-stage press, and have the advantage of being able to see every round that I put together.

I've also seen factory rounds that had missing primer flash holes...missing, light, or heavy powder charges. I've seen inverted bullets. Remington has had a few problems in the past with powder charges...some varying as much as 3 grains in .30 caliber rifle calibers. Search for the numerous recalls that they've had.

If an experienced handloader is careful, he can easily match or exceed factory quality...as to consistency, reliability, and accuracy. If he's careless or stupid, he can blow up his gun and lose body parts. Same goes for factory-produced ammo. We're dealing with wicked pressures in some calibers. Never lose sight of that.

Carry on.

[Deathrider1579]

Gewehr98,

What you need to do in a TEOTWAWKI situation is to find some good people to start a community with so you don't have to watch your own back.

Any how, on topic.

I like to keep at least 2 full combat loads for each of my guns as a SHTF fall back. (I consider a full combat load to be every mag I own, fully loaded I know its not mill-spec or whatever but it the way I measure things at present so sue me lol)

I don't reload at present, still just 5 years into being legally able to own guns anyway. I am looking at starting to load the .308, 30-06, and .45 as those are bleeding expensive.

-DR

[1911Tuner]

In a SHTF/EOTWAWKI, the two best candidates will likely be .22 rimfire and 12/20 gauge shotshells loaded with 7-1/2 shot. That, and a reasonable amount of ammo for a sidearm and maybe a hundred rounds in a rifle caliber of your choice will likely either see you through it or leave unfired rounds beside your stiff corpse.

What you'll really have need of is a good knife.

[Wwalstrom]

IMHO
(1) Stock up on ammo, especially .22LR.
(2) Pick up a couple of "simple" .22 rifles. By simple, I mean something easy to fix if it breaks. It would suck to have a couple of high dollar Ruger 10/22's and have the firing pins and/or extractors break on you ... and still have 1000's of rounds of 22 ammo laying around.
(3) Pick up a few FLINTLOCK rifles/muskets/pistols/shotguns, and bullet molds in the appropriate caliber(s). You can find flints, you can make your own powder, and mold your own bullets.