What aggravates me about Springfield


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Darkker
May 22, 2006, 01:37 AM
Lets see... Someone help me with the math here.
M1 Garand: Units produced: Only slightly less than an AK. Tooling costs: not very much

M1A: Also read Short action M1 Garand Selling Price: $1200-4500.

How <> is an M1 Garand, oopps, I mean an M1A $1200!!???
Oh, sorry TwigField made it,Well, probably Brazilian sweat shops, it's a war hero suvenier rifle.

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swingset
May 22, 2006, 01:38 AM
Your post makes no sense. That is all.

JJ Hiryuu
May 22, 2006, 02:06 AM
Because lots of people will pay $1200.

Businesses don't run by being charitable, they run by taking you for everything they can.

Limeyfellow
May 22, 2006, 02:16 AM
Its even more pondering that you can get the new Norinco M14S semi automatic clones that have the problems fixed in Canada for under $400C. A fraction of the cost of what you see them manufactured here. Unfortantly they are a niche market and people are willing to pay these higher costs so the prices will stay higher.

ocabj
May 22, 2006, 02:18 AM
This post screams for the grammar Nazi in me.

Detritus
May 22, 2006, 02:28 AM
your assumptions are incorrect.

first off The Springfield Armory Inc. rifles are in no way built on ANY of the old governmement M-14 tooling. even if they were, the M14 while originally envisioned as a "modified M1 Garand" wound up being so divergent from the Garand that little to no tooling was common between them.

the M1A was a project dreamed up and developed by a small group of NRA Service rifle shooters as a way to get a civilian Legal version of the M-14 for use in the national matches (the platform is a rather good one and in the days before the advent of the M16A2 it was seen by many as a MAJOR step up from a garand).

the M1A costs as much as it does b/c it costs alot more than many people think to make one, and frankly SA is offering the lowest price you will find on a NIB M-14 type rifle regardless. go look at an LRB M14SA which has a real hammer forged receiver like the original M14 instead of a cast unit like SAinc, they you;re looking at around $2k or more for a rack grade rifle and i believe the wait if up to a full 6 month plus now.

edited to add.....

Oh and the Polytech and Norinco m14 clones are as in expensive as they are b/c they're made at chinese labor prices (ie PRC run arms plants and all that that entails). personally since America accepts goods of non-firearms nature made in factories with the same type of labor conditions and with the money going to in many cases the same place, what the hell is wrong with letting less exspensive copies of older rifle types be imported this "Trade sanctions b/c they sold to country X" BS is just that, BS. such things no more hurt china than a flea bite to a bull. but i digress.....

Limeyfellow
May 22, 2006, 03:29 AM
If they let the Chinese firearms back in they would go back to dominating a large portion of the market again. Over half of all imports and a third of all total sales is a significant portion that the makers over here would throw a absolute fit to let them in and it makes it seem like its a scold for the bad practices on human rights and so on China has. The amount of money domestic firearm companies pay for lobbying would be gone.

Kaylee
May 22, 2006, 07:35 AM
Nicely explained Detritus. :)

To further clarify Darkker, the present Springfield Inc. has nothing in common with the original government-run Springfield Armory but the name. It's a privately run company that bought the name and produced clones of the original arms. So even if the M14 could have been produced easily on M1 tooling.. Springfield Inc. doesn't have that equipment I believe.

Though now that I think about it... whatever happened to the original Springfield tooling for the M1 and such? Was it scrapped? Worn out and discarded?

Detritus
May 22, 2006, 07:51 AM
Though now that I think about it... whatever happened to the original Springfield tooling for the M1 and such

our luck (as american gunowners and collectors) would be that they wore out and or were auctioned off as "scap value only" items. are long gone and lost.

remember that the dies (not the presses, btw) used to make the body panels of the Delorean pretty much wound up as weights for the likes of crabpots.

dmckean44
May 22, 2006, 07:58 AM
If they let the Chinese firearms back in they would go back to dominating a large portion of the market again. Over half of all imports and a third of all total sales is a significant portion that the makers over here would throw a absolute fit to let them in and it makes it seem like its a scold for the bad practices on human rights and so on China has. The amount of money domestic firearm companies pay for lobbying would be gone.

While this may be true, I'd still like to see them back on the market. What good are guns if nobody can afford them?

Onmilo
May 22, 2006, 08:43 AM
Wow!
It just goes to show that one should never drink alcohol and visit a message board!

Owen
May 22, 2006, 08:59 AM
I think the M1A's are pretty reasonable.

Keeping in mind that the price nearly doubles between the manufacturer and the customers hands, a $1200 dollar rifle costs about $600 (not counting the manufacturers margin). There are some darn complicated parts on that rifle. $600 bucks seems like a decent ballpark number.

If you think you can do it cheaper, I recommend that you build a factory.

Nearly as many M1s were made as AKs? Not even close. Only about 5 million M1s were made. I believe over 100 million AK's have been made, but I'm having trouble finding a reference at the moment.

iamkris
May 22, 2006, 11:23 AM
Another example of why basic economics, both macro and micro, should be required subjects in school.

Don't Tread On Me
May 22, 2006, 11:31 AM
I've heard that Springfield is making an aweful lot of its parts in Brazil. See MIM. That's Taurus territory.


I think everything Springfield makes is overpriced and not that great, except for the XD, which is entirely made in Croatia. :)


Their marketing appeal (at least in rifles) is aimed towards the type of guys that want a "classic" US MBR "main battle rifle" whatever that internet label means. You know, but what America used to beat the Nazis.

MechAg94
May 22, 2006, 11:31 AM
What good are guns if nobody can afford them?

While I will say the govt doesn't help matters with taxes and stuff, there are all sorts of guns out there that are affordable. It doesn't do anyone any good to whine that the particular rifle you want is not affordable for you.

I hate to jump on you, but what is the next step up on that complaint? Are you going to tell manufacturers what they can charge? That would make things worse not better.

MechAg94
May 22, 2006, 11:36 AM
If they are truly overpriced, I am sure someone will come along and take their market share by making a cheaper M14. I doubt it though.

As for their 1911's, the ones I have are pretty good for price and shoot straight. The higher quality manufacturers are $200 or $300 higher at least.

rbernie
May 22, 2006, 12:57 PM
I've heard that Springfield is making an aweful lot of its parts in Brazil.That's a fact. The good side is that these parts are all well made by Imbel (of FAL receiver fame, for example).

The US has no hammerlock on manufacturing expertise, and I have no issues with buying firearms made in whole or in part in other non-Communist countries if they're well made.....

asknight
May 22, 2006, 02:13 PM
You must really hate Glock! As the company President openly stated that it costs approx $75USD to manufacture the entire handgun, they're still selling for $550+!

deolexrex
May 22, 2006, 02:27 PM
asknight-

Do you have a source for that quote?

Jmurman
May 22, 2006, 02:27 PM
Garands for 1200?

Try CMP and get a REAL one for $550

Selfdfenz
May 22, 2006, 02:58 PM
I often wondered why Baikal or CZ or have never producing some of the more desirable blasters-from-the-past that no longer have viable patents.

Baikal would be capable of at least the quality of the Norinco 1911s and CZ even better albeit at a higher price.

I'd rather buy American but sometimes cost and availability don't allow it.

S-

nico
May 22, 2006, 03:39 PM
CZ got into the 1911 market when they bought Dan Wesson. No need to produce one of their own.

Limeyfellow
May 22, 2006, 03:44 PM
The government's M1 Garand tooling was sold off to various countries including South Korea, Italy and a bunch of others.

shermacman
May 22, 2006, 06:25 PM
Another example of why basic economics, both macro and micro, should be required subjects in school.
Along with basic English.
I am impressed that there are so many people on this forum who have enough knowledge and patience to turn an illiterate, strangely worded post into an intelligent thread.

Selfdfenz
May 22, 2006, 06:56 PM
I was thinking more in terms of a Biakal 1911 and a CZ M1 carbine.


S-

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