DC Sniper Rifle


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LaEscopeta
May 22, 2006, 09:00 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/05/18/image350c94dd-2b3d-4148-9924-3824ae3cd3aa.jpg
http://hosted.ap.org/photos/E/e12315aa-462f-4e67-8a31-6930aee8cb54-big.jpg
http://hosted.ap.org/photos/3/33d768c1-cd62-4b5a-8473-c3f0a427192d-big.jpg

"The Bushmaster rifle used by convicted sniper John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo is seen at the Montgomery County Judicial Center after it was entered into evidence in the murder trial of Muhammad, Wednesday, May 17, 2006 in Rockville, Md. Muhammad, who is representing himself, is on trial forfor the six killings in Maryland during the Oct. 2002 Washington area sniper spree.(AP Photo/Chris Gardner, Pool)"

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beerslurpy
May 22, 2006, 09:11 AM
Wow he used an eotech. So much for magnification.

Owen
May 22, 2006, 09:34 AM
What's the white junk all over it? Dust from the evidence locker? Fingerprint dust?

Onmilo
May 22, 2006, 09:49 AM
Slick rifle.
Too bad it ended up in the hands of cold blooded murderers.

madmike
May 22, 2006, 10:26 AM
Watch for calls to ban EoTechs.

"The deadly, hi-tech, computerized electronic sighting device used by the DC snipers. These scopes use laser holography to create an image of the target and mark it with a red targeting circle the victim can't see. While they serve a purpose for soldiers or government agents fighting terrorists or drug dealers, we can see no legitimate reason why this technology should be available to civilians. It is incredible to imagine there would be any sport if one hunted deer with an EoTech, since the deer would have no idea it was being targeted and would be doomed without effort on the part of the hunter."

:barf: :barf: :barf: :fire: :banghead:

Don't Tread On Me
May 22, 2006, 10:33 AM
Oh jeeze...this will surely feed the EOtech vs. Aimpoint bashing/debate over on a popular AR15 forum.. :rolleyes:


IIRC from the transcripts of past trials, most of the shots were between 35-65 yards at most. There might have been 1 maybe 2 a little further, but not much. They hit their victims in a number of different places. Some got hit by headshots, others got "winged" in the love handle area. No consistency. On a few occasions, they fired more than 1 shot because they missed entirely.


If you can't hit COM with ANYTHING at 50 yards from a rested slow fire position, you suck. The "snipers** " were terrible marksmen. That's a good thing as it resulted in a few victims surviving. Had they been better shots, none would have survived.

Unfortunately for the others, even 55gr Wal*Mart .223rem is pretty devistating and most of the victims died.



** we should refrain from calling them snipers, despite the stupid moron media doing so. Snipers are heroes that save American lives by putting themselves in extreme risk doing hard work every day. We soil the label of "sniper" everytime these thugs are described as such.

madmike
May 22, 2006, 10:39 AM
As I told one respondent, "My eight year old daughter can shoot better than that."

Yeah, the Sniper School was not happy with the implied corelation, seeing as the scumbag was a vet.

But wow, I have to wonder if he EVER qualified in small arms, if that's as poor as he shoots?:confused:

Don't Tread On Me
May 22, 2006, 11:45 AM
Mohammed didn't do most of the shooting, Malvo did the majority of the shooting.

madmike
May 22, 2006, 12:01 PM
Let's be thankful he sucked and wasn't taught.

clipse
May 22, 2006, 12:33 PM
I wonder if the stock is fixed in that position. If so that would mean there there are no preban features which means that this wasn't even an assault rifle. :D

madmike
May 22, 2006, 12:37 PM
Yes, it was a post ban weapon.

Some groups then pushed to ban stocks that aren't collapsible, but LOOK LIKE THEY ARE, so as to reduce sales of such weapons.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The Grand Inquisitor
May 22, 2006, 12:40 PM
despite the stupid moron media doing so. Snipers are heroes that save American lives by putting themselves in extreme risk doing hard work every day. We soil the label of "sniper" everytime these thugs are described as such.


This doesn't quite make sense. Americans don't have any lock on snipers - are Jihadi snipers in Chechnya shooting at Russian soldiers and the occasional civilian heroes?

Any sniper, American or otherwise is not a hero, but rather just another soldier doing his duty. There's nothing glorious and heroic about killing people at any range; sometimes it's necessary, but it is never good.

LaEscopeta
May 22, 2006, 02:19 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8763-2004Sep9.html
Authorities believe that Malvo shoplifted the rifle from Bull's Eye [gun shop in Tacoma, Wash.], where he and Muhammad had been seen checking out the Bushmaster that later disappeared. Once the weapon was found in the back of Muhammad's Chevrolet Caprice and traced back to Bull's Eye, a search of federal records found that the shop had lost track of 238 guns in the previous three years and that more than 50 guns from the store were traced to criminal acts from 1997 to 2001.

Martin [lawyer for the gun shop] said poor paperwork and accounting within the store made it seem that many more guns were missing than actually were. "We have accounted for most if not all of the weapons," he said.Note: I added the stuff in brackets from different parts of the referenced article, to keep this post short.

madmike
May 22, 2006, 04:24 PM
It's still bad that someone was able to walk out with $1500 worth of rifle and sight.

Still, what were these 50 related crimes? "possession of a stolen weapon"? "Possession of a weapon while a felon"? How many were actually used to commit violence?

AJ Dual
May 22, 2006, 04:28 PM
IIRC, weren't they shooting out the trunk of a sedan? I thought it was through the hole left from the removed trunk lock, with Malvo's legs protruding into the passenger compartment from a folded-down back seat...

The EOTech and an AR with no front sight base made sense in that case, since they were only shooting through a hole that was about 1.5 2" in diameter. You can crowd the EOTech as much as you want, and with no parallax, you can hold any funky eye-line you want, as long as you can see the dot or cosshairs, it's on target.

So if I've got the details of how they used the trunk of the sedan as a 'blind' right, I think Malvo only had about a half-inch crescent shaped hole above the barrel to see through, and that might account for some of the crummy marksmanship. Presuming a zeroed-in optic, and the flat-shooting .223, 50-60 yard shots to COM on unsuspecting targets should be child's-play for almost anyone if they weren't so constrained.

beerslurpy
May 22, 2006, 09:33 PM
No one ever implied they were USMC Scout Snipers. They were however snipers in that they fired on their targets from concealment and then vacated before a response could be mustered against them. That is the essense of sniping.

Hawkmoon
May 22, 2006, 11:22 PM
But wow, I have to wonder if he EVER qualified in small arms, if that's as poor as he shoots?
Don't Tread On Me beat me to it, but Muhammed was mostly the wheelman, and it was the Malvo kid who did most (if not all) of the shooting. Wasn't Muhammed a truck driver or supply clerk or something like that when he was in the service?

madmike
May 22, 2006, 11:48 PM
I believe so, but everyone in the Army and Marines, and most in the AF, are required to qualify on small arms at least once a year.

Granted, some suck, but still, it wasn't impressive shooting. If Muhammed was any good, he should have taught the boy the basics.

Ah, screw it. I'm not going to try to figure out the mind of a sociopathic, twisted moron.

Lone_Gunman
May 23, 2006, 12:42 AM
Snipers are heroes that save American lives by putting themselves in extreme risk doing hard work every day.

Was Lon Horuchi a hero?

How about the Japanese sniper that killed my uncle on Iwo Jima?

"Sniper" is a morally-neutral term.

madmike
May 23, 2006, 12:55 AM
The "Sniper" bit came about when Muhammad was found, and IDed as an Army vet. AHA! Obviously the ARMY trained him as a killer and a sniper, and taught him to use a deadlysemiautomaticweaponofmassdestructionrambokillingmachine.

Sniper is neutral. "US Army Sniper," which he was not, has been used as an insult in this case.

nico
May 23, 2006, 01:33 AM
my memory may be deceiving me (and they may have made it up), but after their arrest, I remember a good number of sources claiming that Muhammad qualified as an expert marksman when he was in the military.

grimjaw
May 23, 2006, 01:49 AM
I remember a good number of sources claiming that Muhammad qualified as an expert marksman when he was in the military.

My limited understanding of the grading of military rifle expertise indicates that a rating of 'expert' on an M16 would not necessarily qualify you as a 'sniper.' The rating was for hitting a X out of Y targets between 50-300 meters (could be off on that).

jmm

Double Naught Spy
May 23, 2006, 01:54 AM
** we should refrain from calling them snipers, despite the stupid moron media doing so. Snipers are heroes that save American lives by putting themselves in extreme risk doing hard work every day. We soil the label of "sniper" everytime these thugs are described as such.

Yes, some American snipers are heroes to other Americans, but certainly not all. Did you read, "Jarhead"? The guy never fired a shot in anger in Desert Storm.

In the military, American snipers certainly were not always revered as heroes. Carlos Hathcock's biographies describe some of the disdain non-sniper soldiers held for snipers. Hathcock was repulsed by being referred to as a murderer by fellow soldiers because he didn't kill in a fight, but just blew people away before they knew what was going on. He reasoned, appropriately, that he was in a fight - war. He just used the advantage of stealth to improve his odds. Hathcock was a hero that was despised by some of his peers.

madmike
May 23, 2006, 02:01 AM
An expert must score 38 or better out of 40. The preferred range has pop up targets at 50, 75, 100, 150, 200 and 300 meters. They appear in singles and pairs for 3-7 seconds, longer at long range. Firing positions are from fighting position, and prone unsupported. These days, one wears Interceptor body armor, as well as LBV and helmet. The long stock on the A2 can get in the way thusly, especially for smaller shooters and females. There is talk of qualifying off hand again, because of our current conflict, but I haven't seen it confirmed yet.

An INFANTRYMAN who scores EXPERT may be sent to the Sniper School by his unit, to learn stealth, intel gathering and target prioritizing. The course is arduous but not long and was audit only until a few years ago. It is now pass/fail.

Sniper is a skill, not a measure of accuracy alone.

Crosshair
May 23, 2006, 02:11 AM
Would have been interesting to see how the media would have reacted if they had been using a bolt action rifle.:rolleyes:

I bet someone is going to want the rifle destroyed "for the victims". I had someone at work tell me this. I went on a long speech and told them, "The people they killed are dead, sawing the gun in half is going to do nothing. You might as well destroy their car and bulldoze the gas station it happend at. It is an inanimate object, it's a hunk of metal. You have to be a very emotionaly weak person to think that doing such a thing will bring any "closure" to people. The person who pulled the trigger is the person that should be sawed in half, but even that won't bring closure. You are just trying to cover the fact that this terible thing happened and there is not a thing you can do about it. Death is a part of life, you can't hide and pretend it doesn't exist. It's real, it's there, and you are going to die someday too. It's something we all have to deal with. Blaming it on a piece of metal is just trying to hide from that fact."

/Sorry, I had to put up with alot of people who where "blaming" the gun.

Mumbles_45
May 23, 2006, 03:18 AM
An expert must score 38 or better out of 40

Actually its only 36, which means the 300 meter targets are optional if you dont miss anything else.


An INFANTRYMAN who scores EXPERT may be sent to the Sniper School by his unit,

Well, there is a little more to it than that. Not just any linedog who shoots expert is going to get sent to sniper school, just the guys in the battalion sniper section.

madmike
May 23, 2006, 03:22 AM
As of two weeks ago, it was 38 out of 40. I have my expert card sitting here to prove it:evil:

(It changes from time to time--score, course of fire, etc)

And I did say MAY get sent.

Heck of a course. I took a look at it for my sniper trilogy. Don't plan on sleeping much for ten days or so.

nico
May 23, 2006, 03:28 AM
My limited understanding of the grading of military rifle expertise indicates that a rating of 'expert' on an M16 would not necessarily qualify you as a 'sniper.' The rating was for hitting a X out of Y targets between 50-300 meters (could be off on that).
I was speaking more in response to the comments that Muhammad was a lowsy marksman. I'd say the victims who survived are lucky he wasn't the one doing most of the shooting.

Lebben-B
May 23, 2006, 08:40 AM
An expert must score 38 or better out of 40. The preferred range has pop up targets at 50, 75, 100, 150, 200 and 300 meters.

Close, but not quite. There are two different qual courses used in the US Army, a 300m range with timed exposure pop-up silhouettes and an alternate 25m qual with scaled targets.

The 300m qual has E-type (Full torso) and F-type (Head and shoulders) silhouettes from 50m to 300m in 50m increments. There is no 75m exposure. (75m targets are used, however, on the KD range and field fire ranges.) F-types are used at 50m and 100m. E-types are used from 150m-300m. In order to qualify as "expert" the shooter must hit at a minimum 36 out of 40 targets.

The 25m alternate qualification consists of a poster with 10 silhouettes scaled from 50m-300m in 50m increments and is used when a full size qual range is unavailable. The course of fire is in two tables, 20 rounds per table. Shooters must put two rounds per silhouette in each table for a max of four rounds per silhouette. In order to qualify as "expert" the shooter must have 38 "hits" out of 40. Credit for a "hit" is given if the bullet hole touches any portion of the silhouette, to a max of 4 hits.

Mike

Harry Tuttle
May 23, 2006, 10:28 AM
They trained with a bolt action rifle but they abandoned it in a field:

D.C.-area snipers may have planned attacks near Tacoma

By Mike Carter
Seattle Times staff reporter

Virginia prosecutors have concluded that D.C.-area snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo had set up a snipers' nest in a Tacoma-area field and were "preparing or training" to kill randomly with a rifle more than a month before the Beltway shootings began.

The pair were interrupted and forced to abandon the rifle, police and prosecutors said, when a truck cut through the field where they were set up behind an apartment complex early on the morning of Aug. 17, 2002.

"I think it's fair to say that we believe they were set up to shoot someone. We can't say who or why," said Deputy Prince William County Prosecutor Attorney James Willett. "Based on their subsequent actions — the random shootings of 10 people (in the D.C. area) — it is a reasonable assumption that they were preparing and training there (in Tacoma) for what eventually happened here."

Investigators have traced the rifle in the field to a Tacoma man, Earl Lee Dancy Jr., who has admitted he illegally purchased it for Muhammad and then reported it stolen at Muhammad's request after it was found.

Dancy is under investigation by federal agents for making that illegal "straw purchase" for Muhammad, who could not legally possess a gun because he was the subject of a domestic-violence protective order. Dancy and Muhammad were friends and Muhammad and Malvo had stayed with him off and on.

A federal law-enforcement source has confirmed that the U.S. Attorney's Office in Seattle is contemplating charging Dancy with making false statements on a federal firearms form. The crime is a felony that carries a penalty of up to 10 years in prison.

Dancy, contacted yesterday at his home in Tacoma, said he was under a "gag order" and could not talk about the case.

In his testimony during Muhammad's trial in Virginia last November, Dancy said Muhammad came to him in November 2001, said he needed a rifle, and gave him $800 in cash. Dancy bought the gun at Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma. Over the next several months, Dancy testified, he, Muhammad and Malvo went several times to an outdoor Tacoma shooting range to fire it.

"Did the defendant ever make any remarks to you about Mr. Malvo at the shooting range?" Prosecutor Paul Ebert asked.

"Yeah. He showed me a target and we looked at the grouping and he said, 'That's a sniper,' " obviously impressed with Malvo's skill.

The rifle was a Remington Model 700, a model commonly used by police sharpshooters and similar to the weapon used by U.S. Marine Corps snipers. When found in the Tacoma field, the gun was loaded with a bullet in the chamber and equipped with a telescopic sight and bipod, used to steady the weapon for more accurate shooting.

Pierce County Sheriff's Sgt. Ed Troyer said there was an apartment building nearby, and the field commanded a view of Highway 512 southeast of Tacoma.

Troyer has gone back through police reports and found no incidents of illegal shooting or shots being fired in that area.

According to a sheriff's report made by the two Pierce County men who found the gun, they were leaving the apartment building, took a shortcut in their truck through a field next door, "and noticed something sticking out of a green duffle bag."

"When they stopped and looked closer they saw that it was a rifle with a scope and a tripod on it," the deputy wrote, misidentifying the bipod attached to the gun's stock.

"When they (got) out of the truck, they could hear someone running through the bushes, but couldn't see them," the report said. "They said the rifle was loaded with one .308 round and was up on its tripod pointed at the apartment building that they just came from."

The discovery of the rifle may partially answer one question for investigators, according to the Virginia prosecutors: why Malvo shoplifted a Bushmaster assault rifle — the weapon used in the Beltway shootings — from Bull's Eye. According to statements from Bull's Eye employees, the Bushmaster was first noticed missing sometime in August or September 2002 probably after the Remington was abandoned in the field.

The two guns are significantly different from each other.

The Remington, the weapon found in the field, is a 44-inch-long rifle that can be fired only after the shooter manually operates its bolt action, which ejects a spent casing and reloads the next round for firing. Its magazine carries five bullets. The rifle fires powerful .308-caliber bullets and can shoot accurately at distances of 500 yards or more.

The Bushmaster is roughly 35 inches in length and fires a .223-caliber bullet. It is an assault-style weapon that can fire as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger and can be fed with a 30-round magazine. While accurate at up to 250 yards or so, it is not commonly considered a sniper rifle.

The Bushmaster that Muhammad and Malvo used was equipped with both telescopic and laser sights.

The first of the shootings tied to the Bushmaster occurred Oct. 2, when a round was fired through the window of a Michael's craft store in Aspen Hill, Md. That same day, James Martin, 55, was shot dead outside a supermarket in Wheaton, Md.

Muhammad was convicted and sentenced late last year to die for the death of Dean Meyers, who was shot down while filling his car at a gas station near Manassas, Va. Malvo was convicted and given a life sentence in Virginia for the Oct. 14, 2002, slaying of FBI analyst Linda Franklin.

Prince William County Commonwealth's Attorney Paul Ebert said he is preparing a Virginia homicide case against Malvo.

Besides the two convictions, Muhammad and Malvo are suspects in 12 other slayings in Washington, Maryland, Virginia, Louisiana, Georgia and Alabama. The first killing for which they are suspects is the Feb. 16, 2002, slaying of Keenya Cook in Tacoma.

Cook was killed with a .45-caliber handgun owned by Dancy, who has testified that Muhammad and Malvo routinely borrowed and fired several weapons belonging to him.

Malvo, 18, has told police and psychiatrists that the 43-year-old Muhammad had sent him to commit that shooting as a test. Cook was the niece of Isa Nichols who police and prosecutors say was a target of Muhammad's rage because she had sided with his ex-wife, Mildred, in their divorce.

While it has been speculated that Nichols was the intended target of that shooting, Deputy Prince William County Prosecutor Rick Conway, also on the team that convicted Muhammad, says that's not clear. "I believe statements have been made by Malvo to the effect that Muhammad wanted to kill one member of the Nichols family every year so Isa Nichols would suffer," Conway said.

madmike
May 23, 2006, 10:39 AM
But waaaiiiit! Background checks and NICS STOP people from getting weapons illegally, don't they?

And since when is a EoTech "laser" and "telescopic"?

:banghead:

Langenator
May 24, 2006, 11:45 PM
As far as changes to the course of fire for Army rifle/carbine qualification, the draft from the Infantry School is now circulating.

COF (pop up range, day fire) will be:

20 targets from the prone supported position, 50-300m
10 targets, prone unsupported, 150-300m
10 targets, kneeling unsupported, 50-150m

I don't remember if the standards will be adjusted, but I don't think so. Ft Jackson started testing this about a year ago.

KC&97TA
May 25, 2006, 01:58 AM
They weren't much of "snipers" in many of our eyes, but they fall under the term, from thier actions taken and the way the delivered thier means of killing. I think it was back in '97 when those 2 kids in Kentucky pulled the fire alarm and killed the school children running out with thier fathers deer rifles, now that was some good tactics and snipeing too.

Off topic - Rifle Range Knowledge, the USMC went back to the 'old' points system for the Fleet Marine Force, back to the old 250 score and loop slings.

Old Sgt Major Joke - the word "Sniper" comes from the English shooting a small bird called a "snipe", if you could hit this bird with a rifle you were a "sniper" ... aren't you glad they didn't shoot "swollows"

LMAO, I guess you had to be there when the crusty Sgt Major told the Joke.

Lebben-B
May 25, 2006, 06:46 AM
As far as changes to the course of fire for Army rifle/carbine qualification, the draft from the Infantry School is now circulating.

COF (pop up range, day fire) will be:

20 targets from the prone supported position, 50-300m
10 targets, prone unsupported, 150-300m
10 targets, kneeling unsupported, 50-150m

I don't remember if the standards will be adjusted, but I don't think so. Ft Jackson started testing this about a year ago.

I've seen that as a proposed standard, along with a couple of other variations. But it takes TRADOC forever to make up it's mind. Then writing and re-writing the POI takes a long time, too. What happens at the unit level in the meantime is a "Local Standard" - units come up with their own course of fire variation. When I was in the JSA, Korea, one of our scenarios was a shoot-out in Pan Mun Jom. To that end, the Bn commander had rectangles of plywood sheeting (4'x8') mounted at each firing point of our local 25m range to simulate a building corner. We'd do an army standard qual (For EIB and promotion point purposes), then do our local qual with 25m Alt targets. We'd do 20 rounds prone supported, 10 rounds firing around the corner standing, 10 rounds kneeling at the corner. To add some time pressure, the shooter had 2 minutes to fire 20 rounds with a mag change. The 10 round stages had a time limit of one minute each. Scoring stndards were the same as a normal Alt Qual.

Mike

madmike
May 25, 2006, 09:38 AM
USAF has its own variations, and has at times required 40/40 for expert, but usually 36/40.

The usual stances are prone supported, prone unsupported, over a barricade (at vehicle/window height) and strong and weak side barricades (around corners).

geekWithA.45
May 25, 2006, 09:54 AM
Hmmph...I don't remember the eotech on that rifle.

When I saw the pictures from the first trial, I remembered a different, aimshot type holo sight, something like this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=975904

Anyone else remember that, or is my memory playing tricks?

chrisTx
May 25, 2006, 10:08 AM
there is NO WAY that gun killed anyone. no flash hider, no bayonet lug, pinned collapsible stock?

it's AWB compliant!

RKCheung
May 25, 2006, 11:38 AM
Don't Tread On Me beat me to it, but Muhammed was mostly the wheelman, and it was the Malvo kid who did most (if not all) of the shooting. Wasn't Muhammed a truck driver or supply clerk or something like that when he was in the service?

Actually, Malvo later changed his story and now says that Mohammed did most of the shooting.

http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6982

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