hi i am a new member and i would like to share my opinion about the 45acp cartridge. i dont think the 45 is a very good cartrige. actually, i think it is one of the worst cartriges ever designed. the rim of the cartrige is too large. it catches in the indentation of the next round in the magazine. as it is being fed into the chamber, it catches on bottom while it is being pushed by the slide from the top. then, it points downward. this is not good. especially for feeding. 9mm cartriges and 40 cartriges constantly point upwards as the are being fed. they glide out of the magazine smoothly. load a 9mm magazine and load a 45 magazine and then unload them. you will see what i am talking about. this is why most 45auto pistols dont function well with hollow points. it is hard to feed a hollow point bullet when it is pointing down at the feed ramp. the only way to do it is with lots of momentum from the slide. and if a pistol design requires very much momentum to work, then it is not a good design. besides being difficult to feed, the 45 has less fire power than a 9mm. when using fmj ammunition, the 9mm will penetrate much more. a 45 will not go through a garden shovel but a 9mm will. i tried it using cheap winchester target ammunition. i have shot a lot of varmints and small game with 9mm, 40, and 45 caliber hanguns and 40 caliber hollow points seem to make the biggest holes. 9mm holow points make almost as large of a hole as the 40. 45 fmj make a much smaller hole and it seems that the 45 is the weakest handgun cartrige of the three...at least from my experiments with wood and sheet metal and stuff. there is only one reason the 45acp cartrige is still popular,the 1911. i like the 1911 but i wish it was 9mm or 40 caliber. then you could afford one that works and it wouldn have to rattle to function. you can go ahead and talk about the 45's legendary power, but you are just spitting out a bunch of b.s. the 45 acp is not good.
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May 22, 2006, 10:03 PM
Sheesh, you sure know how to start off on a board, doncha? I like 9mm, but I would surely never trash a cartridge that has PROVEN itself over decades, as one of the finest battle pistol rounds ever made.
You can get 1911s in 40 and 9mm...I would prefer a CZ in 45 myself, to getting a 1911, but that's my personal opinion, and I would not run down the round itself.
Oh, Omar the Tent Maker sells Nomex suits, too...
May 22, 2006, 10:07 PM
Interesting point of view.
Anyway, if the 9mm or .40 work for you, shoot them.
For me, I'll stick with the .45 as a primary, and 9mm as a backup.
May 22, 2006, 10:14 PM
Go Back Under The bridge,Troll!
May 22, 2006, 10:14 PM
I am not going there!
May 22, 2006, 10:19 PM
It's not often a new member relays his full depth of knowledge in his first post.
May 22, 2006, 10:22 PM
a 45 will not go through a garden shovel but a 9mm will. i tried it using cheap winchester target ammunition.
I was thinking about getting a .45 but that changed my mind. :(
May 22, 2006, 10:31 PM
besides being difficult to feed, the 45 has less fire power than a 9mm. when using fmj ammunition, the 9mm will penetrate much more. a 45 will not go through a garden shovel but a 9mm will. i tried it using cheap winchester target ammunition.
Thanks. Next time I go hunting garden shovels I'll be certain to take my 9mm.
I guess you were too busy shooting all those different guns to learn where the upper case shift keys are on your keyboard, eh? Did anyone ever mention to you that paragraphs and capitalization were invented to enhance readability?
"cheap winchester [sic] target ammunition" -- would that qualify as an oxymoron?
May 22, 2006, 10:32 PM
May 22, 2006, 10:37 PM
I was thinking about getting a .45 but that changed my mind.
Ya gotta consider the source. You might want to take a look at this link for a little more definitive test: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=461635&page=1
Stephen A. Camp
May 22, 2006, 10:42 PM
Different people like different cartridges.
I like 9mm and have several pistols chambered for it.
I like .45 ACP and have several pistols chambered for it.
My 9mm's are reliable or they get fixed or are gone.
My .45's are reliable or they get fixed or are gone.
9mm vs .45 ACP is and has been a widely discussed topic here. A search will result in many pages to read.
There is no real need that I can see for another.
May 22, 2006, 11:26 PM
Let's be a bit more hospitable, please. The new guy is certainly entitled to his own opinion. If any of you want to debate his conclusions and counter them with any sort of evidence or documentation, go for it. A little research shoud do wonders, for both sides. It's not as if the 9mm versus .45 debate hasn't been ongoing for nearly a century.
9mmluger, you've given us several conclusions. Would you like to tell us how many different .45 magazines you've used to test your theory? How many brands, and what they are? How about the brand of garden shovel? Thickness of the metal and place of manufacture and other minor details?
Hawkmoon sort of alluded to the first thought through my mind, though: I'm trying to recall if I've EVER heard of a shovel that needed to be perforated by a defensive sidearm.
I have a couple of 9mm handguns that I like very much, and, if my Commander-- or Government Model -- or National Match -- was unavailable, I could probably defend myself rather well with one of the nines. Or with a .38 revolver, for that matter. Almost forgot - - I still have a .40 Hi Power, too.
It happens that my personal preference in a defensive sidearm is a CLW .45. This does not bring me to try to convince a bunch of total strangers that the 9mm or .40 S&W are worthless. Probably a matter of misplaced confidence, an over-healthy self image, and 40 years a satisfied user of various .45s.
So, 9mmluger, how do you feel about the .32 H&R mag vs. the 5.7 FN?
Stephen A. Camp
May 23, 2006, 12:35 AM
Since Mr. Guest asked some questions, I felt I should reopen the thread, but understand that confrontational posts will result in the thread being relocked and probably more for those posting them.
May 23, 2006, 01:02 AM
Here is his other post on another thread.
"I gave up on automatics for a while. I had a bad experience wit a springfield 1911. got a Ss&W 620. i like it a lot. but i still wanted an auto so I got a sig 226 40S&W. very reliable and acurate. I like both, but i still prefer the revolver."
He had a bad experiance with a 1911. :eek: Poor guy:D
May 23, 2006, 01:46 AM
:) I know why you shoot a shovel...but first -
--If a gun does not run, try different ammo. If that does not work, have someone else shoot the gun. At any rate 1) gun has a problem, 2) Operator Error.
One or both needs fixin' fast! I prefer both get "fixin'", and brutal honesty be applied.
--Hence the reason I harp about gun fit to shooter. All components: gun, ammo, and shooter must work as a team.
--Anytime a gun deviates from original design - something else is affected. Many guns that have problems are NOT original in design, instead "clones" of designs.
--When I assist in student finding out what guns works for them and in what caliber, I stole from Hackathorn or the other gentleman whom name starts with a 'H' I forget.
Students shoot a variety of guns, even same guns with different stocks. Includes Revos and Semis. Even same platforms with different calibers...They get it narrowed down.
Typing paper folded in half, then half again. 5 yds @ 5 rds. Best to shoot from concealment, or holster, still from low ready is fine. At the buzzer [start] shoot 5 rds. Repeat with guns, ammo etc. Typing paper reveals what that shooter, can shoot best for them at this level. Groups and Times do not lie, same as pattern board for shotgun patterning.
Student may not be able to shoot .357 from a Revolver, but can shoot 38spl. Perhaps DA / SA just does not work in a .40, but does in a 9mm. Maybe they cannot shoot a DA/SA worth a flip, but can shoot a 45ACP with its "push" and SA trigger.
Shot placement is the key, gun and magazines have to run with ammo , and then getting more into this, some ammo for that gun will shoot better POA/ POI than others.
CCW means also figures additional testing for a particular shooter in "dressing around the gun" and ladies have even more concerns.
Caliber wars have no bearing on what students chose.
I will state the 9mm was very popular because the persons I chose to focus with, were budget minded, abused ladies, elderly, single women, recently divorced...and not being reloaders, 9mm allowed them to practice a lot with Blazer Ammo.
.38spl was the wheelgun preference.
45ACP shoots shovel to put holes in on purpose, this allows one to remove pine cones and doggie leftovers from sandboxes.
12 ga buckshot is used to shoot a Big Metal pot that fits into bigger pot as a sieve, when them big shrimp need pulling out, lift homemade "sieve" , and the crab/shrimp boil is good to go for next batch.
12 slugs used make a hole for conduit in a shed. Saves wear and tear on brace and bit...not to mention having to drive back to the big house to get the durn thing...
9mm is for "southern drain" using PVC in the garden.
In TX stuff is done different and no help from the French is needed on big gardens.
If Mr. Camp and Guest make sand shovels - I am going to grin big time...yes it works!
May 23, 2006, 01:17 PM
I'm sure the shovel experiment says a thing or two about the barrier penetration issues with the .45 Auto.
Heres another bit I found:
In one Texas shootout, the older trooper's .45 slugs couldn't pierce the truck cab where the armed gunman held forth, but the younger trooper's .357 SIG rounds did, killing the opponent.
Emulating The Manstopper
Guns Magazine, Sept, 2000 by Massad Ayoob
May 23, 2006, 01:22 PM
for 50 years and never experienced the problems you describe........the 45acp was designed to shoot people, not car doors or shovels...........chris3
May 23, 2006, 08:16 PM
Seems like a reason to prefer the .45 ACP. If you run out of targets you can always use your garden shovels without shooting a bunch of holes in them. :)
May 23, 2006, 09:01 PM
Hardin, is that you?
May 24, 2006, 12:09 AM
You know, I have found that while good cartridges often go to the bit bin for a variety of reasons that have nothing ot do with the round's merits, the reverse is never true. The .45 ACP has not held on for nearly a century because it doesn't work.
May 24, 2006, 01:44 AM
Perhaps the shovel had a weakened area where the 9mm round went through .I would have a metalurgical study done,that way we know for sure and while we are at it we should take a look at physics:what was the angle of the dangle while shooting the 9mm compared to the angle of the dangle when shooting the 45 acp.......huh, who'd a thunk all that stuff could matter.
May 24, 2006, 02:24 AM
Everybody has their own favorite rounds, but saying that the others are horrible is a litle extreme. I dont care for the .357 sig, I dont think its a big enough jump over the 9mm to justify the extra blast/cost and the loss of rounds. But it does give extra range and it is a potent defensive round.
The .45 is a great round. It puts big holes in your target and has a lot of energy. Most of the SF guys I worked with in Iraq carried 9mm because of the high fire power, but a few of them liked the extra power of the .45. I dont know about you, but I will trust a Green Berets opinion about what bullets work well
May 24, 2006, 02:40 AM
Fans on both sides of that fence...no one really wrong, no one really right :scrutiny: Just gotta understand there really is a place for both!
May 24, 2006, 03:54 AM
He had a bad experiance with a 1911
Don't we all? :D
This is why most 45auto pistols dont function well with hollow points.
My USP45 works fine with JHP. If your gun doesn't work with JHP, change gun :D
May 24, 2006, 04:51 AM
When I was once young(er) and (more so than now) unaware I'd heard all the 1911s don't feed hollow point, thats why Federal makes expanding "FMJ Ball" ammo, blah, blah, blah. I was still kinda new at the hunting & fishing store (read huge FFL in Ga) and brought this up one night. One of the older guys told me about a 1911 he handled that had been kitchen table gunsmithed. It was throated / feed ramp angled so much that not only did it feed hollow points - it fed empty cases. Problem was it wouldn't feed ball anymore! A current co-worker's Kimber feeds ball, HPs, and even semi-wadcutters with the stock bbl/ feed ramp and no mods as long as good mags are used. Magazine design - especially the follower; barrel throat, and feed ramps have way more to do with feeding reliability than cartridge design. 45 ACP works. 9mm works. I like the velocity/mass hybrid of the 40 S&W. However, I shoot a 9mm because it's cheaper to practice with; Plus, I very much like & shoot the BHP quite well in 9mm. I'd like to start handloading and a 40 S&W Hi-Power wouldn't be out of the question. If a good deal came along and I could load practice ammo for it at a decent price I'd get one. I'd also like a nice 1911 when my finances allow it. I think it just comes down to preference and what works for the individual shooter. I just like shooting handguns in general so I like most calibers - they all have their uses.
Edited to attempt to clean up some of the sentance structure and grammar.
May 24, 2006, 08:27 AM
First off welcome to THR's forums.
Second, my personal experience with the 1911 platform & the .45 ACP cartridge dates back to the late 1970's.
Granted I have had "affairs" with other calibers in other handgun platforms but none of them have had the longetivity or intensity of my love affair with 1911's & the .45 ACP cartridge.
It has nothing to do with historical nostalgia or ME/MV numbers, it has to do with the way they feel in my hand, the natural instictiveness of the balance & pointability, the short, crisp, single action trigger, the mild recoil, the superb accuracy & even the rock solid reliability that so many on internet forums seem to enjoy bemoaning & berating.
Dont like 1911's or the .45ACP cartridge? that's cool dont spend your money on them.
But dont try to convience me that my 30 someodd years of my own personal experience with them is somehow misguided or wrong.
May 24, 2006, 09:05 AM
Well, opinions are like.....well, everybody's got one.
.45s have advantages over 9, though I do carry a 9. For one, they're very easy to reload and make accurate with cast bullets. I can load a box of .45 for under 3 bucks with range scrap bullets and put 'em into under 2" at 25 yards. I've yet to find ANYthing in 9mm that will shoot much better than 2.5". Might be the gun, but I've seen this in a number of 9s. 9mm just doesn't seem as inherently accurate and is not as easy to work with using cast bullets in my experience.
.45 can make more power in the +P versions. You can find factory loads that put up around 550 ft lbs. This borders on useful as an outdoor round, black bears and the like defense. I'd rather have a .357 or a .41 or a 10 or better, frankly, but wouldn't feel too under-armed in the field with my .45. I certainly WOULD feel too lightly armed with a 9mm, be like stuffin' .38s in my .357 wheel gun except that the .38s are accurate enough for small game and I've yet to shoot the 9mm that is as accurate as a .38. .38s are also very easy to handload for with lead bullets, wadcutters and 158 grain SWCs being my favorites. But, the .45 can be both more accurate and more powerful than the 9mm, mine is.
I don't know if I've ever heard anyone suggest that the .45's design causes poor feeding. :rolleyes: It's designed for SA pistols. My Ruger feeds 100 percent all the time. 1911s can be finicky, but so can many 9mm designs.
Kinda dumb answering a post like this with logic, but hey, that's the way I operate.
May 24, 2006, 09:21 AM
I would like to read the first post, but will wait until it is split into paragraphs.
May 24, 2006, 09:38 AM
Well I guess I fall on the side of "who cares".
The .45ACP is very easy to reload, operates at very low pressures, handles lead well and the 1911 in all it's variations provides something for everybody and a solution for most objectives. Bullseye, Action Games, self defense.
The 9MM operates at high pressure, most guns have a twist rate that is far to fast to offer anything more than combat accuracy with lead boolits unfortunately, and guns are made for virtually any problem you might think requires an answer using a firearm.
Both are great cartridges, have been around since Christ made water and will be for a very long time going forward with or without my opinion.
ps Welcome to the Forum
May 24, 2006, 10:46 AM
I just like the bigger holes a .45acp makes!
...especially the LSWC's I shoot in BE.
May 24, 2006, 11:06 AM
I have found those most adamant against something generally desire it the most. Perhaps he will be a convert and even an advocate someday.
May 24, 2006, 12:38 PM
I've been shooting, carrying 1911 Colt 45's for over fifty years and never had to shoot a shovel. :)
May 24, 2006, 02:43 PM
Seems our friend has more hots for the .40 S&W than the 9x19 mm. S'gonna have to change his screen name.
Me, I'm going to change my handle to ".445Luvr". I will post on every board I can that all other rounds are crap. Follow me true believers!
Our mottoes will be "Our niche may be small, but our guns are not" and "Dan is our only Wesson". :evil:
Oh, also: "Supermag=Superlove".
May 24, 2006, 02:50 PM
and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a thread titled 45acp! Now theres something that looks interesting. But wait! It was posted by a guy with the screen name 9mmluger! Oh now heres something you hardly ever see, a thread comparing the obvious benefits of one particular round over another based on absolutely no fact or science. I simply must join in the fun!
Click! Here I am! Wow! Lots of others took the bait too! Oh what a frolicing good time we all must be having!
Now is the time when I inject my worthless bit of information...
MY PISTOL PUNCHES BIGGER HOLES THAN YOURS DOES!! (this is a fact, not an opionion)
May 24, 2006, 04:18 PM
MY PISTOL PUNCHES BIGGER HOLES THAN YOURS DOES!!
But are your shovels quivering in fear? :D
May 24, 2006, 07:00 PM
or Mozambique, or do you go for the brain stem (where the handle meets the blade) and try for a One-Shot Stop?
Do you need 12-18" penetration to kill a shovel that is only 1/8" thick?
What does Fackler say is the best round for shooting shovels?
I just took a walk out to the garage with my Kimber loaded up with Ranger Talon SXT 230+p and both my shovels are quaking in fear! Not only that, but the rakes too! How do I get them to calm down? Don't think I'll be able to sleep through all the clatter...
Damn this thread...:rolleyes:
May 24, 2006, 07:15 PM
The .45 might not penetrate
The 9mm might put nice clean holes in it
But my .40 vaporizes it:D
May 24, 2006, 07:43 PM
Cheap body armor, a spade with the handle cut off under the coat. Nice...:D
May 24, 2006, 08:26 PM
I will freely admit that I am not an expert and by any stretch of imagination would I portray myself to be. I do not own but one pistol that employees the .45 acp and by some folks standards here I would be shuned by my choice. My .45 is a GLOCK 21 and while I haven't expended gazillions of rounds through it, it has been fired with ample rounds to determine its merits and attributes. My little piece of plastic junk has operated absolutely flawlessly. It is, I believe quite accurate in that at 20 yds (60 feet) I have no problem with placing all rounds in 3" circle at a fairly rapid rate. I have no problem with loading the magizines without the use of the supplied loading device.
Now with that covered, I shudder at the number of persons who have perished after being wounded by this round. Surely, there were countless Japaneese, Germans, and their allies during two great wars not to mention Korea and Vietnam. This chambering has proven itself to be of great effectivness.
For me, the .357 mag and .45 acp are my choice of self defense calibers; others will do just as well. I can not imagine that I will every need to shoot it beyond distances of 20 to 30 feet and pray to God above that I never am required to fire on another human being. However, I am positive that either one would do the job very very well. I do not antisapate needing to shoot an automobile so I'm not real concerned about barier penetration unless it would be over penetration of the exterior wall of a house or again God forbid a human being.
To fire upon the curved surface of a piece of steel is absolutly mind boggleing. The possibilities of a projectile striking such a surface to glance of into some tangent direction are infinite and might come right back at you. Whew! I just can not imagine that, but to each his own.
For me I am quite content with the .45 acp, it is tried and proven.
May 24, 2006, 08:33 PM
I think that it is interesting that the first post by 9mmLuger was also the last...
May 24, 2006, 08:40 PM
An army of shovels came to my house last night and started banging on my garage door, so I came outside with my 1911 and shot at them but OH NO the rounds didn't penetrate!!! whatever will I do, this is only a round that has proven its power and reliability for coming on a century, but it is powerless against this shovel foe!
May 25, 2006, 09:51 AM
Whew! I'm glad I bought a 10mm G29 the same week I bought an XD-45! I came so close to being undergunned....
May 25, 2006, 10:10 AM
I own and shoot both .45ACP and 9mm pistols. I am very fond of my custom .45 "Pin Gun," and other .45s. I am also very happy with my two 9mm BHPs.
I much prefer to reload the .45 round. I have yet to find an accuracy load for the 9mm despite some effort spent trying. I have gone back to shooting bulk ball 9mm ammo.
The .45 also works better on steel plates and bowling pins, two things I used to shoot a lot.
Yesterday I carried an Officer's ACP .45 with ball ammo, and a Smith 649 .38 Special loaded with Cor-Bon DPX. I felt confident in either gun and would have drawn whatever one was easiest to get to, if necessary.
Because it's cheap right now the 9mm is my most favored ammo for subguns.
May 25, 2006, 12:34 PM
I am glad that someone has finally addressed my innermost fear. I have always had a strong phobia about garden shovels. Hitherto, I have simply cut them up with a torch or buried them deeply with much arcane ritual (necessary to prevent them digging themselves out). I have also blown some up but that's another story. I had never thought of shooting the filthy things until this thread!! Many thanks to all. The only caliber that I feel I can comfortably rely on for this task is the 50 bmg. I am purchasing a Barrett M107 CQB for this purpose now.
I believe that I can now sleep nights, provided my aluminum foil hat doesn't slip off and let the shovels into my dreams......
I also need to say (I apologize in advance ;) ); If all shovel owners had their shovels "spayed", this would not be a problem at all....
June 6, 2006, 02:43 AM
I mean, the fact that the guy posted one provocative entry and has not been seen again. 42 replies, and people are talking to themselves, and to a lesser extent, to one another.
Oh, yeah, he has exactly ONE other post on THR, made on the same day.
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