Novice on Survival

[Broadbill]

I'm new to these boards, been here maybe three weeks. I really like it but I've been reading an awful lot about SHTF stuff, Bug-Out bags, shortages of ammo. Alot of stuff that I haven't addressed.
I have quite a few long arms, no handguns, but except for an AK knock off nothing in what seems like the "normal" shtf category.

Marlin levers
700BDL 30-06
B-78 22-250
Lots of 22s
And of course all the required shotguns.

But I was thinking if something really went down forget about my prefered stuff. if it were really post- whatever what ammo would we most able to scrounge.

I'd have to say .22, .223, 7.62x39, and 12ga, with 30-06 being a distant fourth.
What do you think?

A .35 marlin might be fine but not as available. I love my .444 but can barely find ammo on shelves now.
Its not what I'm shooting as much as what everyone else is shooting.
I guess I'll have to become more familiar with the AK.

As far as the bugout thing I'd have to say 22 all the way. I'm a capable enough shot and have some decent tack drivers. Not to mention that I can carry a brick of 22's in the same space as 2 boxes of '06. And of course an 870.

Bullet placement and meat on the table.

Broadbill

[hso]

30.30

[engineer151515]

I'd say .38spl/.357 could fit in that crowd. Then you could have a lever action / revolver combo with common ammo.

[Art Eatman]

Ya gotta remember that "Survivalism" started in the late 1970s during the Cold War, when the USSR and the US had thousands of ICBMs pointed at each other. A blowoff for sure would have meant the end of the world as we knew it.

Nothing happened, except a cottage industry sprang up and grew and then there was an ongoing fear campaign of SHTF, etc.

Okay. Today, the odds are against total collapse. The odds favor localized, short-term problems. Think of something similar to the Rodney King riots, except more widespread.

If you really think of total collapse, go on now and be wherever you think you'll be best off. One the eve of collapse, you'd be too late. Period. You need to already be part of a small community, more than a tankful of gasoline from a major urban center (LA, Houston, etc.).

Otherwise, figure on Katrina-sized problems, plus more violence. Probably no more than a month or three. That's more reasonable for a single person or a family to deal with, anyway. Food, water, shelter, defense.

Personal opinion, but the most additional gun you'd need would be some sort of AK clone, SKS, etc., and practice/plinking ammo plus a thousand rounds at most. I really doubt daily firefights. A .357 revolver would be a Good Thing for up-close problems until you can get to a long gun. Again, practic and plinking ammo, plus a few boxes of "Social Loads". You probably need more books than anything else, to pass the time while you're keeping your head down.

If you plan on evacuating, a good-used nondescript full-size pickup with a camper shell is "just like everybody else" and doesn't attract attention, and you can carry such valuables as you see fit.

FWIW,

Art

[Lou629]

30-30, 30-06, .45 acp, 9mm, .357/.38, 12 Ga. & .22LR would probably be among the easiest to find after any local or world-wide apocalypse, since they are so common now. You can find them in just about any gunshop or sporting-goods store, and often in pallet load quantities. If the stores are closed/looted, these common calibers are used by so many people, you're almost sure to have a hunter/shooting-buddy or neighbor who has some. Whether or not they'd want to share is another problem altogether, but I'm sure there will be quite a lot of these selections around for a long time to come.

[NineseveN]

Hard to beat that 30/30. :D

[WeedWhacker]

Don't forget a rifle chambered in .308 Winchester. Also shoots 7.62 NATO, which makes it a good choice in terms of ammo availability, as well.

[ball3006]

is to avoid any situation where a firearm is needed. But, it is advisable to have one handy just in case.........chris3

[Kentucky]

I was not aware of that. A .308 rifle can also shoot the 7.62 ammo? That is handy. Can a 7.62 rifle shoot .308 ammo? Sorry for showing my ingnorance here, I dont have any experience with either one of those calibers.

[riverdog]

IIRC, the difference between 7.62 NATO (not to be confused with 7.62x39) and .308 Win is how headspace is defined. IME, .308 Win and 7.62 NATO are interchangable. Reloading experts? Bueller?

[WeedWhacker]

.308 and 7.62 NATO are *not* the same (http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm)! However, in most all cases, a to-spec .308 can safely shoot 7.62 NATO. The reverse is not true: do not shoot .308 Winchester ammo in a 7.62 NATO-stamped firearm unless you get it examined by a gunsmith to make sure the chamber is tight enough to avoid a kaBoom.

[Thefabulousfink]

.308 and 7.62 are NOT the same round. They are very close but have slightly different specs. As others have said, headspace (how the round fits from the closed bolt to the neck of the chamber) is the main issue. IIRC .308 needs slightly more headspace than 7.62 nato. Some guns will feed and fire both rounds just fine, but others (with tighter headspace) will only feed 7.62.

Back on the original topic: I think the best gun in a SHTF issue is one that you can hit your target with consitanly. I would think you would be better served with your rem 700 or a lever gun along with a shotgun (and mabey a .22) than with an AR or AK type weapon. I think your bigest concer would be getting food, simply looking like you can defend yourself and avoiding people should prevent most negative human interaction.

A good rifle can take large game at a distance and 30-06 and 30-30 are two of the most common centerfire rounds in America. A good 12 gauge shotgun makes a very effective defensive weapon, and can be used to get birds and small game (and 12 gauge shells are plentiful). A .22 is great for small game and is better than nothing against humans, plus ammos is plentiful and light weight.

You could probably carry any 2 of those 3 guns with ammo for less weight than an AK or AR with enough ammo and mags.

[WeedWhacker]

fink, you have it backwards. The .308 ammo is commercial, and uses thinner brass. 7.62 NATO chambers are generally longer than .308 chambers, but the brass is a lot thicker. Since both rounds have practically the same dimensions, it is almost always safe to use 7.62 NATO in a .308 chamber. It is not considered safe to shoot .308 commercial from a 7.62 NATO chamber!

[zippo8]

Also, you mentioned about the scarcity of the 35 Remington and the 444 Marlin. You could always reload. I have those two same calibers, and like you, either could not find what I wanted or if I did, it was overpriced. I picked up a Lee loader for each. Check them out. They're not meant for pumping out hundreds at a time, but they meet my needs. You can find them on ebay many times for $20 or under. They come with everything you need to load a particular caliber.

[riverdog]

Good link re .308Win vs 7.62 NATO. Both my M-1A's and .308 Garand are barreled with commercial match barrels to .308 Win spec. I've had no problems with either .308 Match ammo or NATO spec ammo. Accuracy-wise, I've found the Brit berdan primed ammo right up there with Match ammo.

I don't have anything with a 7.62 NATO-spec chamber.

[Trebor]

I read some posts by a guy who went to New Orleans as a private security contractor shortly after Katrina. I think it was a week before he got down there. (I can't remember what board right now. Don't think it was here)

He said .40 S&W ammo was worth it's weight in gold, with 12 gauge and 5.56 not that far behind. He said NOPD officers, other local law enforcment, and the private security guys who got their earlier were scrouning for ammo wherever they could. The group they were with issued .40 Glocks and some ammo, and suggested they bring more themselves. He wound up giving much away to local LEO's or trading it for other comforts.

12 gauge ammo, especially defensive loads, was in demand because the NOPD had "acquired" (looted) various 12 gauge shotguns from Wal Mart and other places to add some extra firepower.

It was interesting commentary and interesting to note how common .40 S&W has become in LEO circles. Stashing a case of that might not be a bad idea along with a gun to shoot it from.

[MudPuppy]

Having a few bricks of 22 seems like a good idea. And its cheap enough to do without breaking the bank.

Don't count on 7.62x39 being common "after the fall"--I can't find any now!

Oh, the 308 has higher chamber pressure specs than 7.62x51Nato as well. My Cetme was finicky with 308, but loves the surplus S African stuff (but I've heard other cetme/g3 types are finicky with the exact same round...)

I have a little of everything, but that's my "one" rifle. I've got enough ammo put back, its accurate and reliable, common ammo, and i can take a deer with it (and often do).

223 is popular and there's plenty of cats around I think it would take down...:evil:

[TeachMe]

I have heard the advice that for SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, etc. situations, to stick with military calibers. This ensures that there will be a supply some way or another.

I believe any list should include .22LR and 12ga at a minimum. For handguns, the much derided 9mm should always be relatively easy to find. For rifles, 5.56 NATO and .308 Winchester (and a .50BMG if you want to cover all bases :) ). It is my understanding that the 5.56 is much more widely used, and based solely on ammo availability this would be the choice.

You could always reload. Of course if you really get into TEOTWAWKI scenarios, you'll need a flintlock and supply of lead and blackpowder. Then again, bow-and-arrows, crossbows, slingshots and other handheld projectile launchers could also be useful.

In short, you can carry it as far as you wish, but don't pursue SHTF/TEOTWAWKI weapons to the neglect of items truly NECESSARY for survival--water, food, and shelter.

[Azrael256]

I wish everybody would read a book on mountain men. I recommend The Last Of The Mountain Men. IMO, if you're worried about which of your thirty seven guns will have ammo when the SHTF, you're barking up the wrong tree.

And if you're thinking that you'll have to fend off an invasion of blue-helmeted JBTs, stock up about 200 rounds of your favorite battle rifle round and find a rosary. You'll need them both at the same time. "Survival" isn't about packing enough guns and ammo to fight WW3, it's about keeping your head down and being a good enough shot that your 60 rounds of .30-06 will keep you neck deep in venison for a couple of years. You ain't gonna have much opportunity to scrounge.

FWIW, a few pounds of butter lead, some powder to start and knowledge of how to make more will keep your muzzleloader running long after your cartridge guns have run dry.

[Trebor]

It's not always, or even ever, gonna be a total SHTF situation though.

I'd say Katrina was SHTF for those who didn't evac and got caught in it. Anyone caught in that kind of situation is better off with any firearm and at least 100 rounds of ammo then no firearm. This is in addition to some food, water, extra clothes, etc.

You don't have to think the UN is going to invade to recognize the need for firearms as defensive tools in times of disaster.

[Husker1911]

Earth is a fragile egg, hurtling through a universe of hard objects. It's entirely conceivable a comet or asteroid could collide. At that time, all bets are off.

[qlajlu]

:confused: Being a "newbie" to forums and this forum in particular, I am trying to get the lexicon down. Most abbreviations I have been able to find in the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_slang) but it does not have an entry for "SHTF." Would one of you be kind enough to tell me what "SHTF" stands for? It has been used extensively throughout this thread.

Thank you in advance.

~~~~~ooOoo~~~~~

Never mind. We are talking fans here, aren't we? It just came to me. Ever feel real dumb? Duh...

[Husker1911]

Manure contacting a fan.

[qlajlu]

Being an ex-Marine, ex-cop, and ex-truck driver, you would have thought that I would catch that abbreviation fairly quickly. Ever feel completely foolish?

[Husker1911]

Not to worry. Allow your mind to draw nearer the gutter! :)


If you're ex all those things, what the heck are you doing now?

[KaceCoyote]

What firearm are you MOST profficient with? There is your answer.

One .22 rifle you can hit with, is worth 40 thousand rounds for a rifle which you cant hit crap with. I'm planning on my CZ, with its .22LR conversion kit. Brick of .22LR and depending which I have the most ammo in/how long I have to pack. Su-16, AK-47 or Mossberg 12guage.

[22-rimfire]

Survivialism... you need to decide just what kind of event you are trying to survive. Preparation for a total breakdown in government and services for years or preparing for a one-week event. My feeling is that you are probably not going to be carrying around large quantities of ammunition no matter what you shoot. You need a home base and that is where the stuff is stored. You will be limited to what you have on hand for the most part. The key is to keep your head down and avoid comfrontations that involve deadly force. A wound on your arm or person that disables you is just as deadly as being shot dead. You are not going to be able to stand up against the military of another country such as in the movie "Red Dawn". You run!

Living off the land is a fantasy for most people; you're better off stockpiling cans of beans and military rations. Clean water or the abiity to make it clean. So many issues that go well beyond what gun or how much ammunition you have.

The most common ammunition available now will be the easiest to find in a SHTF situation should you have to scrounge for ammunition. My vote is for a 22 rifle. But if you are thinking about defense against armed people, you would be better served with a larger caliber. There has been endless discussions on this topic which is okay as it is an interesting topic.