[mswestfall]

I have a Browning Citori 525 Sporting that I have modified for Trap shooting. (Please don't try to talk me out of that gun for that sport....)

I shoot the bottom barrel 95% of the time and I have had a failure to fire on that barrel in recent competitions. The hammer falls and there is usually a small indentation in the primer; slightly off-center.

I think it is a problem with grit/metal shavings in the firing pin hole. I plan to take the gun to Southland Gun Works on Friday to have him look at it but I have another question for you reloaders....

Could it be the primers?
The problem started occurring after I switched to Federal 209A primers; from Winchester 209's. I have noticed that the anvil cover varies in distance from the base of the primer. I didn't notice this with Win 209's.

[sm]

Seating depth is what I would check on the new primers.

Do any of these primers "back out"? Meaning - load two, shoot one, unload and see if primer has backed out under recoil.

Lighter fluid and pipe clean the firing pin holes.

Once a year take stock off, and give reciever a deep clean, I used to use Gas, Coleman lantern fluid, or hot soapy water on my Citoris and other O/Us. use a air hose, and lube proper.

I used mostly Win and Fiocchi Primers. Never had problem with the Feds I used. Back then Rem were giving folks fits...These had a tendency to back out when reloaded [they would back out a wee bit while still on the MEC].

Same symptons as you - we had with a buddy using Rem primers with his Beretta...took another strike with his reloads for them to go off.

I would contact Fed to see if a recall has been - needs to be on a Lot #

[mswestfall]

I've not seen the backing-out by loading two and firing one problem. Usually when I load two, I fire two, so I'll have to give your idea a try.

One of the guys at this last week's shoot suggested that the primer was seated too deep. I think he was right about one of them, but the other seemed to be fine. I really think that there is residue in the pin housing. I sprayed it down and fired into a snap cap. I saw a metal sliver on the second or third try. I didn't have any problems after that.

These AA hulls have been fired six times, so he (my new buddy) also suggested that they might be leaking. He is right about that, they do leak a a lot of residue on the baseplate.

I've pulled the stock off four (or five) times in 22,000 rounds; including last week and tonight. I've used an air hose, Break Free, Hoppe's, etc. But I have to get the pin out before I can clean the hole. Can you tell me if the bottom firing pin, retainer pin, is removed by punching it out from left to right? Do I need to depress the firing pin spring to punch out the retainer pin?

I will e-mail Federal tonight.

Thanks for your help. I'm getting nervous because the North Carolina State Shoot is in a week. I will try anything between now and Friday. On Friday I will try to get the Browning man in South Carolina to look at it for me. I just can't afford to have the misfires. I had one each on Traps 2 and 3 this last Sunday. Each time I switched bbls because I didn't want to risk a lost bird.

Thanks again!

[sm]

I'm getting nervous because the North Carolina State Shoot is in a week. I will try anything between now and Friday. On Friday I will try to get the Browning man in South Carolina to look at it for me. I just can't afford to have the misfires. I had one each on Traps 2 and 3 this last Sunday. Each time I switched bbls because I didn't want to risk a lost bird.

How well I know the spot you are in! I may be a Skeeter, don't matter, pucker-factor is pucker factor. I wish you all the best!


Boy that ought to piss off folks that like to bash other disciplines

Are these AA the "old" original AA one piece Compression formed? or The new HS? The old ones we would [did] get a dozen or more reloads with standard 2 3/4 dr and 3 dr 1 1/8 oz loadings [dated myself huh].

Okay, I know the "spot your are in" makes no difference the competition, we are all in this thing together.

-Been too long since I was inside a Browning O/U and not sure if the 525 is the same as a Citori. Somebody else please with a 535 step up!

-You have a backup gun that fits?
-What other reloads or factory loads have you patterened with that gun and know what they do?

I am the last person that would recommend you change to a new loading or new recipe at this point. That said, I always - unless restricted otherwise- used MY reloads in competition. I had a bad experience once using factory loads in a shoot, and the same thing happened in a restrictive ammo shoot and bit me again.

Do you have time to hit the pattern board [ please say yes]. I suspect you are using 3 dr eq for trap...gonna go with this idea for now anyway.
Can you get Fiocchi 12TH Target Heavy ? http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_target.php

IME./IMO that loading works in a bunch of guns - period. Has "bailed" folks out as you are in.

These are proven too : 12VIPL VIP Lite, and 2VIPH VIP Heavy [ I'd go later for trap, former for skeet].

Otherwise try the STS loadings from Rem.

My gut says the FP hole has debris, lighter fluid and pipe clean, work the gun [ dryfire -reset- dryfire repeat] and keep squrting Lighter fluid to work out any debris.

Got any Ballistol? Use that.

Dexron II ATF [auto trans fluid] is the other best kept secret on shotguns, firearms.

[I'm pissed the OLD Browning Oil in a tin is no more - that was great stuff!!]

When you get there, have some loading checked out, or [hate to say this] if nothing else "Zen" the Fiochhi ( or other new load - we had too with restricted rules and factory loads)
One bird at a time, you own that field. Forget about the gun, the loads, everything physical - mental game, work it, use it, use it against opponents - win with it.

Best of Luck,

Steve

[ArmedBear]

Some primers don't fit tightly in some hulls, or in some hulls that have been reloaded with different primers.

Federal primers tend to require you to tweak your powder charge vs. Winchester and others. I'd just stick with Winchesters if they work.

Some primers have a reputation for punching through. Has this happened to you? This is not something commonly found with Federals, AFAIK, but it happens with some cheap primers if you have a new, sharp firing pin. It causes a jet of burning gas to shoot back at the firing pin, not good.

And I won't talk you out of using that gun for trap. It works for some people. I don't really understand the appeal of the 12 Gauge Citori for shooting anything, but I like the 20 gauge upland version. It seems the guys who like the Big & Tall Citoris have longer arms than me; the gun must balance differently for them.

[PJR]

It is possible that the primer hole is expanding with multiple loadings and the Federal primer is going too far into the brass for positive ignition. Not all primers are exactly the same size either. Generally I load the same company's primers into their brass. Winchester primers with Winchester hulls, Federal with Federal, Cheddite with Cheddite, etc.

If the Winchester primers are working then I'd go back to those for your upcoming shoot.

[45auto]

Safest bet is to take it to your "smith" and have them clean it out. Also, FP's are about $10 so I'd replace them if they take the gun apart...just because it's cheap.

But, I'd switch back to Winchesters since the problem didn't happen with them. I did have that problem years ago and simply switched back to another primer and the problem went away.

The material used for the primer, the part the FP impacts, varies with manufacturers. Some are harder than others and can, with lot's of shooting, batter the FP hole and require breech face work to correct.

[SShooterZ]

As a reference, I've fired about 5,000 reloads using WinAA hulls with Fed209A primers in my Browning XT Trap, which should be very similar to your 525.

Never a problem.

In fact, I've only had maybe 3 misfires in my last 50,000 reloads. All were light primer taps that when I dismantled the shell, and used the primer in another hull, fired off fine. Hence I believe all were seating issues.

Can you get your hands on some newer hulls? That may help the problem. 22,000 rounds though and most guns will be near the point they will need a little TLC.

For Browning work, I would highly recommend Art's Gunshop (http://www.artsgunshop.com/index2.html).

[mswestfall]

I believe I've found the problem.

The Federal 209A Primer is slightly smaller than a Winchester 209 (.242 verses .246). I get a lot of leakage through the Win AA with a 209A verses a Win AA with at Win 209.

I believe the combination of the leakage and maybe a sliver of metal kept the pin from getting through the housing.

The lighter fluid worked well. It floated alot of stuff out of the pin housing. It looked like I got out one sliver of metal. Thanks for the idea.

I've switched to once fired hulls for the upcoming NC State Shoot. will I see any of you there?

Thanks again.

[argus]

Hi there,

I have a citori 525 sporting and I also have experience problems with the firing pin on the bottom barrel.
All the misfires were with reloads I spoke with Browning and they told me to try with factrory loads and I did. Tried factory Fedreals and never had a missfire, nevertheless took the gun to a gunsmith to chech the firing pin and spring because I would like to fire reloads. We checked the pin and spring and we could not find anything wrong, i am replacing the firing pin and spring just for peace of mind.
It looks to me to be a Browning problem

Argus

[berettashotgun]

Maybe you might try a beretta:neener: Had to throw that in. I had a similar problem caused by seating the primer deep on new hulls. A steel #7 pellet caused it, and DID scare the holy crap out of me when I noticed a rather loud bang another time............started keeping a magnet real handy when loading my wetlands dove loads.

[fecmech]

I have a Beretta 390 that was 100% reliable with WW209's probably in excess of 40 K over the past 6 years. Last year 2 things happened ,I bought some Nobel primers (they were cheap) and I bought 10 flats of Estate cartridges(Federal Mfgr). I had failures to fire with both products of about 2-4%. I changed the hammer spring in my gun with a new Beretta part --No help. I also had occasional failures to fire with CCI 209's. I got a slightly stronger hammer spring from Wolf gunsprings and that cured the problem. I'm pretty sure from my experience WW209's probably have the softest primer cup out there. SOOOO if the cleaning does not cure the problem I would either change the hammer spring or stick with WW209's! Good luck Nick

[mswestfall]

So I took my occasionally miss-firing (lower bbl) Citori to Sprata, IL in August.

I shot in one of the Doubles competitions. I had a bottom bbl miss-fire again so I got on the trolley and went to Browning's vendor store. I showed them the shell with the (very small) dent in the primer and asked what could be wrong. They said they didn't know but would take a look at it.

I explained the theory that it was Federal Primers and the guy said: "Not very likely." He said that a primer needs (on average) 7/1,000th of an inch indentation to set it off. The big dent you see is the recoil of the shell against the firing pin before the pin can get out of the way. He said that I could test this by soaking some primers in oil, seating them in a hull and test firing them. I'll give that a try sometime.

So still searching for an answer I asked if 25,000 rounds was enough to wear out the firing pin? The guy said: "Not very likely."

I started to ask another question by saying "Some of the guys at my club say...." He interrupted me and said: "there's your problem"... Most guys at a club don't know what they are taking about.

He was very polite and knowledgeable but didn't offer a solution so I left the gun with them.

Two hours later I went back and picked up my gun. They'd replaced the firing pin and spring on the lower bbl, both cocking springs and the latch in the forearm. It feels like new. They charged me $30.00; including parts.

I got my gun fixed and learned that I'm the only guy at my club that knows anything. At least that's how I interpret what he said. I had fun telling the story at my club too. I'm a happy man again!