"Weird Sign at NRA Convention in Orlando" ???


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David
April 27, 2003, 03:42 PM
I received an email from my friend who attended this weekend the NRA Convention in Orlando.

Upon entering the convention center, he saw a sign that read only "licensed law enforcement" can carry a weapon into the NRA convention.

He had to return to his vehicle to secure his CCW before entering the NRA convention.

What?

My friend, who has a Florida CCW permit, cannot carry his weapon into a NRA convention?

What the heck is going on?

:uhoh: :what: :scrutiny:

It seems to me that NRA should set the standard and promote the lawful carrying of concealed weapons.

My friend said to me what if an "ANTI" took a picture of that sign?

The "ANTI" could use it show show that even the NRA does not "trust" its own people to carry firearms.

Does anyone know anything more about this "weird" sign at the NRA convention?

I am really confused as to why this sign was posted at the NRA convention.

:what: :what: :what:

Just my 2 cents...

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CMcDermott
April 27, 2003, 03:51 PM
Was the sign posted by the NRA, or by the convention center? NRA probably didn't have anything to do with the sign, I bet it was a permanent sign posted by the management of the convention center.

bfason
April 27, 2003, 03:54 PM
Someone needs to get Wayne LaPierre on the phone and determine the veracity of this claim. And here I was thinking of renewing my NRA membership, maybe even spring for a life membership.

"Gun-free zone." Who's that sign for anyway? I suspect that the only people who would obey such a sign are the peeps you don't have to worry about in the first place.

How about a sign that reads "Thank you for not going postal."

David
April 27, 2003, 03:56 PM
Good question "C" -- I don't know.

He said the sign was about 2 x 3 feet and was placed in a stainless steel sign holder about 4 feet high just as you entered the convention center.

Did any other THR member go to the NRA convention, and did you see this sign?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Kentucky Rifle
April 27, 2003, 05:22 PM
In my view this is easy to explain. A really militant anti could join the NRA and obtain a Carry License. Then, he could have just walked up and shot Charlton Heston and proclaimed--"See, I told you that those guns were dangerous and would kill you in the end". Michael "Delta Alpha" Moore even says he's an NRA member. Anyway, I view it as a good precaution.

KR

Tim Burke
April 27, 2003, 05:34 PM
So you think that sign did anything at all to prevent the hypothetical situation you envision?

Bainx
April 27, 2003, 06:03 PM
...come on, now...come on....
you don't expect me to believe a far out conspiracy theory like that, do you?;)

Kentucky Rifle
April 27, 2003, 06:12 PM
No Tim...
In reality, I don't believe a sign would prevent a determined killer from doing his job. However, I do think it would have prevented a "Richard Reid" or other some such, "less than smart" person from doing the deed. OK? You really have no idea what is on my mind. If you're looking for an argument, look elsewhere. I don't feel like it today.

KR

bigjim
April 27, 2003, 06:13 PM
Kentucky rifle said: In my view this is easy to explain. A really militant anti could join the NRA and obtain a Carry License. Then, he could have just walked up and shot Charlton Heston and proclaimed--"See, I told you that those guns were dangerous and would kill you in the end". Michael "Delta Alpha" Moore even says he's an NRA member. Anyway, I view it as a good precaution.


So none of the cops that are allowed to carry might be a Anti ? As a general rule Cops are no more level headed and deserveing of trust than a normal person.

How ever if you think they really are a cut above the rest of us, you may be cut out to be a Cop.

All it takes is a short course designed to pass as many "recruits" as possible then you to can be part of the ruling class.

bigjim
April 27, 2003, 06:16 PM
Kentucky Rifle said: No Tim..No Tim...
In reality, I don't believe a sign would prevent a determined killer from doing his job. However, I do think it would have prevented a "Richard Reid" or other some such, "less than smart" person from doing the deed. OK? You really have no idea what is on my mind. If you're looking for an argument, look elsewhere. I don't feel like it today.

Please tell us whats on your mind!! How would this sign have stopped Richard Reid? Opon seeing the sign....he would have given up his plan to Kill Mr Heston because?

jsalcedo
April 27, 2003, 07:21 PM
Some convention centers do not allow CCW.

Some CCW laws exclude sports arenas and convention centers.

Insurance?

I surely hope its one of the above scenarios.

CZ 75 BD
April 27, 2003, 07:51 PM
regulations, not NRA.

Seminole
April 27, 2003, 08:44 PM
The sign was unenforceable. Florida law specifies very clearly where CCL is not allowed. Those places include only the following:
Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05

* any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
* any detention facility, prison, or jail;
* any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
* any polling place;
* any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
* any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
* any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
* any school administration building;
* any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
* any elementary or secondary school facility;
* any area vocational-technical center;
* any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;
* inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or
* any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law

If the sign was actually posted, my guess is that the NRA decided to try to disarm its members, since Florida law does not prohibit CCL at a convention center.

Powderman
April 27, 2003, 09:18 PM
It was the convention center's rules.

The same thing happened when the NRA convention was here in Seattle. The thing is this--if you had been caught carrying on the premises, the worse thing that could have happened was that the convention center staff would have told you to leave.

Dave Markowitz
April 27, 2003, 09:29 PM
There were similar signs at the NRA convention in Philadelphia back in 1997 or '98.

Owen
April 27, 2003, 09:46 PM
The NRA meeting was at the same plae that SHOT show was at back in Feb. The same sign was up at the SHOT show. I'm pretty sure the sign belongs to the Convention center.

Standing Wolf
April 27, 2003, 10:37 PM
If true, it sounds like a thoroughly stupid idea to me.

bfason
April 27, 2003, 10:59 PM
It was the convention center's rules.

So the NRA decided to contract with a convention center that maintains a "gun-free zone" policy. I wonder whose bright idea that was.....

David
April 27, 2003, 11:07 PM
My friend told me he NEVER expected to see such a "no guns" sign at the NRA convention.

In fact, he had to walk about 2 blocks to return to his vehicle, and he had to leave his Glock locked in his glove compartment to comply with the posted sign.

He was worried the whole time that someone would break into his car and steal his Glock!

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

On a related note, he said the NRA expo was great -- except for not being able to carry his CCW with his Florida permit into the NRA convention.

Did any one else go to the Orlando NRA convention, and did you see this "no guns except for LEOs" sign?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Kcustom45
April 27, 2003, 11:28 PM
So the NRA decided to contract with a convention center that maintains a "gun-free zone" policy. I wonder whose bright idea that was.....

The problem I believe is that most places that are available for rent that you could hold a NRA convention in probably have many of the same rules, i.e., no carry. I know here in Indy at the big gun and knife show they have a large orange sign that says NO LOADED GUNS. Maybe the next time the NRA is in your area you could offer to hold it at your house and let everyone carry. That would be cool.

On a side note did anyone see the episode of the Simpsons where Homer and his family go to the NRA convention? Everyone had to walk through the metal detectors and everyone set it off as they walked through. Then one person went through and did not set it off so they made him go back through with a gun in his hand.

bfason
April 27, 2003, 11:42 PM
The problem I believe is that most places that are available for rent that you could hold a NRA convention in probably have many of the same rules, i.e., no carry.

There are plenty of large hotels that do not have signs proclaiming "gun-free zones." The NRA should put its foot down, and be willing to vote with its dollars if need be. I've attended many professional conventions at hotels without ever encountering a "no gun" sign. Maybe it's because I live in Texas.

Seminole
April 27, 2003, 11:59 PM
Folks, once again. . . .

Other than those places specifically listed in Florida law as off-limits, there is NOWHERE in Florida that is off-limits to CCW. There is NO provision in FL law for a sign such as the one mentioned and FL hotels, convention centers, etc. know it. I have never seen such a sign in the state of Florida because it carries NO weight.


If the sign was there, it was there because the NRA wanted it.

WonderNine
April 28, 2003, 12:27 AM
However, I do think it would have prevented a "Richard Reid" or other some such, "less than smart" person from doing the deed.

Really....:scrutiny:

ahadams
April 28, 2003, 12:37 AM
What KCustom said is generally true - remember all such venues are private property.... Of course the NRA could always hold it's annual convention in giant tents out on the Louisiana bayou (and who knows, it might be a lotta fun!) but it kinda defeats one of the purposes, which is to demonstrate publicly that no matter where they hold it - a LOT of members show up.

pax
April 28, 2003, 09:59 AM
Why don't they just put up a sign that says, "No murder allowed"?

pax

Putting up no-gun-zone signs in the expectation that it will stop a murderer is akin to hanging garlic in your window to ward off vampires. -- "Karansas" on TFL

Stu Gotts
April 28, 2003, 10:00 AM
The same type sign was there when we went to the Orange Co Convention Center for the Shot Show. I did not see any metal detectors on the entrances. I don't think they would have known if you where carrying or not! Stu

benewton
April 28, 2003, 01:23 PM
We had the same problem around here a few years back, with one of the local gun shows displaying such a sign just after the entry, although, per usual, without a metal detector.

I tend to follow the rules, of course, and had to leave the USPc in the truck, not a happy thing to do.

The local liberal rag (Concord Monitor, if interested) promptly highlighted the situation, and so, no sign since.

As a giggle, I always thought that probibiting the CCW while allowing the loaded mags in was idiot.

Anyway, if it wasn't forced by local law, it does make one question how serious the NRA really is, doesn't it?

Aikibiker
April 28, 2003, 02:58 PM
This actually made the rules here in Central Florida. The NRA representative (a pretty blonde) said that the rule was the convention center's and not the NRA's. She also said that since the convention center was private property, that it was there right to do what ever they wanted.

This sign was blatant discrimination as well.
I went to a comic book convention at the same center earlier in the year and there was no sign. I looked around for one.

Seminole, I believe the laws have changed since you have been to Florida. When I took the permit course last year we were taught that a business could place a sign forbidding carrying a weapon on their property and it would invalidate the permit. The relevant statue was also quoted, but I can't remember it right now. All of the local gunshows have signs at the entrances. Although the show I went to this weekend in St. Augustine wasn't posted.

Regards,

benewton
April 28, 2003, 03:00 PM
You know, of course, that you shouldn't attend any gathering which fails to allow you to protect yourself.

And, that would include the NRA.

I may be a member, but I wonder sometimes....

Seminole
April 28, 2003, 07:27 PM
Aikibiker wrote: Seminole, I believe the laws have changed since you have been to Florida. When I took the permit course last year we were taught that a business could place a sign forbidding carrying a weapon on their property and it would invalidate the permit.

Nope. I haven't been gone from the Sunshine year for a year yet--at any rate, the relevent Florida statutes are on-line for your perusal at Florida Statutes (http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC06.HTM&Title=-%3E2002-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2006). I quote from the 2002 Florida Statutes, Title XLVI, Chapter 790.06 (12)

No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05 ; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any area technical center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

While it is always possible for property owners to charge you with trespassing, you must first refuse to leave WHEN ASKED. But of course, first they would have to realize you were carrying (in which case the weapon would not be concealed anyway--and Florida law frowns on such lack of concealment), then they would have to ask you to leave, and then you would have to refuse to leave. It is NOT illegal in Florida to carry concealed solely because someone has posted a sign saying "No Concealed Weapons" or something to that effect.

Aikibiker
April 28, 2003, 08:40 PM
The last gunshow I went to in Orlando had a sign listing a statute. I can't remember it though and I haven't been able to find anything in the 790 section either. Perhaps the statute is under the section of the law covering trespassing.

Sounds like a thread all in itself. Do you want to post in legal and political or shall I?

I really would like to be proved wrong on this. I don't like being disarmed because of some silly sign.

Seminole
April 29, 2003, 12:25 AM
Aikibiker,

My bet is that the statute listed at the show was Title XLVI, Chapter 790.06 (12). A hospital in Tallahassee that I know of has a sign up to the effect that "weapons are prohibited persuant to Florida law. . . " and lists that section of the statutes. Of course, nothing in that statute says that a CCL holder can't carry in a hospital, but the hospital is banking on people not knowing this.

As for trespassing, one isn't guilty of that particular offense until after refusing a direct request to leave the premises.

As for a new thread, feel free if you like.

David
April 29, 2003, 01:53 PM
Did any THR member attend the NRA convention in Orlando and actually see the "no guns except LEOs" sign in question?

I wonder if the convention center only puts up the sign for
gun-related events -- i.e. SHOT SHOW and NRA meeting?

:uhoh: :what: :scrutiny:

Captain
April 29, 2003, 02:42 PM
I was there and I saw it. I figured it wasn't a problem since I am a sheriff's deputy in my home state. Then I went to the Heston tribute in the Convention Center on Friday night and was turned away by law enforcement. I notified them that was armed and showed my badge and ID and was told I was not permitted inside during the tribute while I was armed. This is the NRA at work here. Why the metal detectors when Heston is on stage and not during the show??? I e mailed the NRA already and am anxiously awaiting a response!

4v50 Gary
April 29, 2003, 03:36 PM
They did the same thing in the convention at Reno, NV.

Jeff OTMG
April 29, 2003, 06:03 PM
Yep, sounds like the same sign on the steel easel that was at the SHOT Show. I ignored it then since it is unenforcable and would have ignored it at the NRA Show as well.

David
April 29, 2003, 09:40 PM
Really, I still cannot believe such a "no guns except for LEOs" sign would appear at a NRA convention!

In my opinion, it's like having a Senior Citizen meeting with a sign stating "No One Over 65 Allowed."

Am I wrong?

:banghead: :cuss: :banghead:

thrifty7
April 30, 2003, 05:52 PM
This situation has perplexed me for a while but I now think I understand what we are up against. The NRA meetings are just a highly ironic example....everywhere we are seeing legislatures pass shall-issue laws and then nearly negate their value by creating such a complicated set of restrictions that a person must plan his day very carefully or run the risk of winding up in jail for exercising his "right". The problem is that too many of the "average citizens" beleive that allowing their neighbors to carry is quite dangerous, but that not allowing law abiding citizens to be armed at all is even more dangerous. We have a huge public relations job to do. We must convince a large number of voters that legally armed citizens are not a bunch of accidents waiting to happen. I thought that we had done so when the states began to pass ccw permit laws, but now I am convinced that fear of crime, not trust of permit holders, is the primary reason for these laws. We need good, accurate statistics and we need to spend millions of dollars on public relations. I sure wish I knew how to make it happen.

Seminole
April 30, 2003, 06:09 PM
The NRA meetings are just a highly ironic example....everywhere we are seeing legislatures pass shall-issue laws and then nearly negate their value by creating such a complicated set of restrictions that a person must plan his day very carefully or run the risk of winding up in jail for exercising his "right".

This is most certainly NOT the case in Florida. The places one cannont carry are listed in the statute mandating Shall Issue CCL. A convention center, whether the NRA is meeting there or not, is not one of these few places. Putting up a sign cannot make CCL unlawful in Florida.

I repeat. If the sign was there--and we have at least on THR member so far who attests to it, so it seems to have been there--it was there because the NRA wanted it there even though it had no legal effect.

The long and the short of it seems to be that the NRA does not support CCL (or if it does, its attitude is "not in MY backyard."

Frohickey
April 30, 2003, 06:44 PM
I see a common occurrence here with the NO CCW sign just outside the building the NRA Annual Meeting is to be held.

Nevermind that they usually hold them in gun-friendly states. I saw the NO CCW sign in Reno, NV last year. And others here have said the same thing on other NRA Annual Meetings.

Seems that the NRA needs to own up and say if they protested that the sign NOT be put up or not. The statement about the sign being put up by the Convention Center is a cop-out.

:cuss:

David
April 30, 2003, 07:09 PM
Has anyone heard from the NRA about their explanation of the "no guns excerpt for LEOs" sign?

I would love to hear their side of this story!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

starfuryzeta
April 30, 2003, 07:37 PM
As a Florida resident and CCW holder, I cannot find any listing of changes to FS 790 that would allow posting of a sign to invalidate the CCW (except in the already listed places). Only thing they can do is ask you to leave....and if you are stupid enough to refuse, its armed tresspassing.

I use the following as a general guideline (and a good read for Florida residents):
http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com

Here are the updates as of 01/2003:
http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/bookupdate.shtml

FTG-05
May 14, 2003, 08:53 PM
I work security every 6 months at Knob Creek during the 3 day Machine Gun Shoot. The owners are very adament that only LEO's and security carry.

Does that make them anti-gun? No, not in my opinion.

When I went to the NRA show in Seattle several, several years ago, I carried and didn't notice any signs banning it. Same with the Nashville show about 8 years ago.

Albin

Mike Irwin
May 15, 2003, 12:39 AM
"So none of the cops that are allowed to carry might be a Anti ? As a general rule Cops are no more level headed and deserveing of trust than a normal person."

Crystal Brame could probably attest to that fact.

Could have, if her husband, chief of police of the Tacoma, Washington, police hadn't mortally wounded her before killing himself with his service weapon...

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