[SSN Vet]

Got this from my Dad in AZ.

Think about it....makes a lot of sense.

I've been reading an old Time-Life series about ancient cultures (apparently nobody reads anymore, so I've picked up several complete sets of hardcover books in pristene condition, for free at my towns transfer station (a.k.a. dump)). After reading about the demise of ancient Greece in the Peloponisian wars (Greek against Greek), and then the break up of the Roman empire....this makes even more sense.

--------------------

We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his
thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration
overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many
of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by
the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book,
Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was
destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across
the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave
a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound
as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States.
He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied,
too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No
nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee
observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy
of history would show that all great nations commit suicide'"

Here is how they do it," Lamm said:

1. "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or
multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can
survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing
languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be
bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The
historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of
bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories
of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon
all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for
autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria
suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques,
Bretons, and Corsicans.".

2. Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism'
and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an
article of belief that all cultures are equal That there are no cultural
differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and
Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by
the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

3. Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without
much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As
Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent
success of our own multiethnic and multi cultural experiment might have
been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance
that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American,
we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm
said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and
culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl
metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural
subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as
Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

4. "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least
educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated,
and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass
have a 50% dropout rate from high. school."

5. "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big
foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would
invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of
'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of
success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry
blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

6. "My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship,
and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I
would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people
worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they
are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is
against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes
to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks
believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common
language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece
took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their
liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two
factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured
political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- From many, one.
In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus'.
Instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

7. "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo
to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity' I would find a
word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion
and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt
discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural
country, having established multiculturalism, having the large
foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it
impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra:
That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be
good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the
cumulative impact of millions of them."

8. In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow.
Profound silence followed. Finally he said,. "Lastly, I would censor
Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes
the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be
destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud
above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew
that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly,
darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is
being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our
educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that
practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate
'diversity' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as
corporations create a Third World in. America - take note of California
and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast.
It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three
slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace,"
"Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength.".

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the
conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is
deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration
monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California
wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American
Dream.

[Zundfolge]

before people start crying "Urban Myth!"

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp

[Ezekiel]

How to destroy America?

If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

Give in to this sort of dangerous rhetoric and create a "cure" that is worse then the "problem."

This sort of stance is pervasive in its "fear propoganda" and serves little purpose other then to incite radicalism. Is there an issue? "Yes." Is his offered timeline correct? "No." Does the diatribe sound like an absolutist fascist doctrine in its undertones? "You be the judge."

I'm torn in a variety of ways regarding this "Imigration Thing," but ad hoc panic caused by fear is NOT the answer.

His answer? Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated...

"That's crap."

[Manedwolf]

4. "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least
educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated,
and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass
have a 50% dropout rate from high. school."

Regarding that, there's yet ANOTHER way that Mexico's slovenly government has been kicking the US in the wallet over that...in a way that will last a lifetime. How?

Candy.

Seriously. Google for news stories about Mexican candy and lead levels. Turns out that since their safety standards are so, so broken and corrupt there, that their candy manufacturing often gets enough lead levels into candy to actually cause permanent learning disabilities. Particularly anything made with tamarind pulp...the processing is third-world safety levels at best.

And a decent percentage of that candy is imported into the US, where, with higher wages, it's cheaper than it was 'at home', and so immigrant kids, who like it, can buy more of it. And they do...go in any convenience store in most of the southwest and you'll see lots of Mexican candy.

When it's caught, it's pulled off the shelves, but it's often not caught. And it's definitely not the poor kids' fault, they just want candy that's culturally familiar. The parents don't even know, when they're told, they generally look horrifed and start worrying, and forbid that any more be bought. It's just that ironically, even with the immigrants HERE, Mexico's sloppy government somehow manages to saddle us with yet another financial and cultural burden, that it's likely that a percentage of those kids will have or may already have lead-caused learning disibilities or other health issues, which will affect what careers are open to them. Someone with a serious lead-caused learning disability generally can't get out of the lower class, jobwise.

I just found it a particularly painful irony. Of course, have they BANNED all imports of Mexican candies into this country over the border till they stop making them in lead-contaminated pestholes of factories?

Course not.

[ApexinM3]

Although there seams to be a somewhat harsh overtone to his speech, Lamm does raise some valid points. I know I have a strong feeling about this situation, unfortunately I don't know what to do about it. I don't like the idea that America is becoming so divided over this, though. :uhoh:

Anyone have any suggestions on a constructive way of dealing with this? I'm curious what our options are without destroying ourselves.

[Ezekiel]

I'm curious what our options are without destroying ourselves.

Don't I feel dumb!

You boiled my entire post down into a single -- better written -- sentence! :(

"Nicely done."

[ApexinM3]

You boiled my entire post down into a single -- better written -- sentence!

"Nicely done."

Thanks! Seriously, though-as a young adult (I turn 29 tomorrow), my generation is going to be saddled with dealing with this problem full-force. Sadly, the vast majority of folks my age are too concerned with American Idol & K-Fed/Brittany, iPods, & X-Box. So unless this problem gets fixed in the here & now, I'm kinda screwed. There aren't enough people in my generation that give a hoot like I do.:banghead:

I'm trying to remain open to any ideas-I'm PO'd about the situation getting where it is, but on the same hand I'd like to do something constructive about it, rather than ranting as a Korpral in the Keyboard Komando Korps. Flying off the handle in joining in a racist course of action will only be counter-productive.

Folks, I believe that with all of our collective knowledge, a sound means of fixing this can be thought up. Yet even if we do figure out a means to do so, will Congress actually do anything about it. THAT is what I fear...:fire:

[l-schm]

The ninth way IMHO would be to vanquish the "American Culture" through abortion and euthanasia.

[Zundfolge]

The ninth way IMHO would be to vanquish the "American Culture" through abortion and euthanasia.

I dunno ... as evil and vile as abortion is, you have to admit its prevented a lot of future Democrats from even being born :evil:

[Soybomb]

The ninth way IMHO would be to vanquish the "American Culture" through abortion and euthanasia.
Of course others among us might say that the ninth way would be to strip people of their by freedom and create a nanny state by legisltating someone personal morals or religious values to protect me from from myself (wheee, gimme some gun control and drug laws too) if I should for example decide I've suffered from cancer enough and would like to die.

[dmallind]

Ah the High Road indeed Zundfolge. Well done. Oy.

[Selfdfenz]

l-schm

Call me a radical but it appears we are half way there. Not good, not good at all.

S-

[Old Dog]

Sigh ... so this topic surfaces yet again in another yet thread ... using this same speech yet again ... We've gone 'round and 'round on this before, folks, in so very many threads.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=138641&highlight=Dick+Lamm+speech
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=130627&highlight=Dick+Lamm+speech
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=140488&highlight=Dick+Lamm+speech

Before everyone starts jumping on the Dick Lamm bandwagon, perhaps one should read more of Lamm's writings, in particular a book he wrote in the '90s, or check out some of his other speeches. Lamm's zero-sum viewpoint, facile pseudo-sociological analysis of our country's problems play well to those who don't understand the deeper socio-economic aspects of the situation and seem to me to present a view of people being only the problems, but never the problem-solvers. A realistic analysis? Not from where I sit.

however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. Simply not true.
The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories
of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Without simply laughing off this preposterous statement Lamm uses out of context, one may note that the histories of all cultures in the world's history are histories of turmoil, tension and tragedy.
"Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture.Um, actually, in our country's history, most immigrants have in fact attempted to maintain pride in their cultural heritage and customs. Gee, just last week I attended some of the Viking Festival events in "Little Norway," Poulsbo, Washington, and then spent a weekend in Washington's Bavarian village of Leavenworth ... Guess we only disrespect the Hispanics in this country for trying to maintain some cultural pride.

[50caliber123]

I haven't, but has anyone read this book, "Mexifornia" ?

[dmallind]

Yes Belgium and Switzerland are two of the most turmoil, tension and tragedy soaked nations I can think of.

The streets in Canada are running red with blood because the Quebecois insist on speaking that cheese-eating surrender-monkey lingo.

Actually I can't think of a multi-lingual industrialized democracy that has as much turmoil as some of the single-language ones like France and the recent riots and England and their intermittent mob scenes - or even ourselves. Probably more tension ridden here than Belgium I suspect...

Now of course if you extrapolate from Iraq's and Rwanda's ethnic civil wars and say that's all because they speak different languages then sure, but that hardly applies to a few street signs in Miami and some storefronts in LA in the hugely English-dominated US.

[cuchulainn]

Actually I can't think of a multi-lingual industrialized democracy that has as much turmoil as some of the single-language ones like France and the recent riots and England and their intermittent mob scenes - or even ourselves. Probably more tension ridden here than Belgium I suspect..Well there's the Basque violence in Spain -- but that actually supports your position. The violence was caused (in part) by the Spanish attempt to create a single language/culture ... and it's died down since the Spanish allowed the use of Catalan and otherwise backed off in its "single culture" crackdowns.

[mrapathy2000]

bring it on headfirst into the cement

[Selfdfenz]

Gee, just last week I attended some of the Viking Festival events in "Little Norway," Poulsbo, Washington, and then spent a weekend in Washington's Bavarian village of Leavenworth ... Guess we only disrespect the Hispanics in this country for trying to maintain some cultural pride.

Hang on a minute
Apples and oranges

If when you got home you kept speaking Norse, wore an steel hat with horns and dressed in furs then perhaps there is a parallel. Otherwise I think not.

Your weekend of diversion is not what we are talking about.

S-

[longeyes]

Actually I can't think of a multi-lingual industrialized democracy that has as much turmoil as some of the single-language ones like France and the recent riots and England and their intermittent mob scenes - or even ourselves.

The ones that are rioting have two things in common: de facto socialism, by whatever name it's being called that day, and Arabic-speaking Muslim minorities that reject full assimilation.

[dmallind]

Not so longeyes. Lived in England 22 years including when it really WAS socialist (the meaning of which is not really as fungible as people on the extreme right seem to think). Very little rioting when it was socialist (not making a causal connection for socialism=safe but instead refuting your assertion that socialism=riots) and next to no Arabic immigration.

By far the greatest part of UK immigration is from the Indian subcontinent and started in earnest after WW2 and Partition. That is largely Hindu but with some Muslim, Sikh, Zororastrian and so on (the first wave was even less Muslim as they could go to the nascent Muslim state of Pakistan). Their religion was largely unnoticed and inisgnificant up until the last ten years or so - relatively speaking very few mosques and so on are much older.

Race riots in England started with black (Carribbean mostly) ghettoes. Asian riots again are almost exclusively a creation of the last ten years, some 15-20 years after the UK started moving away from socialism and into a more modern and free economic nation. In part, this growing inequality of income has helped exacerbate issues to be honest.

[Low-Sci]

This is just my personal opinion on the subject, so excuse me all to hell in advance for what I'm about to say.

Lamm's speech sounds, to put it bluntly, more than a slight shade of fascist. Fascist being defined as that which promotes fascism, a government system typefied by harsh social and economic control and often backed by belligerent nationalism.

Replace "America" with "Germany" in that speech, just for the sake of arguement, remove Lamm's name, and hand it to a friend. See who they think the author really is.

And as far as weekend recreation at Oktoberfest goes, we have to realize something. Just because you don't go home and wear lederhosen doesn't mean its not someone's culture.

If hispanics went home and spoke english to eachother and payed no nevermind to their culture except for a once-a-year festival that served Corona instead of Budweiser, would you be more comfortable with that?

[Phetro]

I don't know what to do about it. I don't like the idea that America is becoming so divided over this, though.

The interesting thing about division is that you shouldn't worry about it--provided you're on the right side (the right side being, of course, the one whose assertions are demonstrated as fact throughout history, as opposed to being repeated as many times and with as much emotion as necessary until they are accepted).

If you're on the wrong side, worry about it. Otherwise, just fight against the wrong side, and you'll be fine.

[Phetro]

This is just my personal opinion on the subject, so excuse me all to hell in advance for what I'm about to say.

Lamm's speech sounds, to put it bluntly, more than a slight shade of fascist. Fascist being defined as that which promotes fascism, a government system typefied by harsh social and economic control and often backed by belligerent nationalism.

Fascism has nothing to do with having secure borders and immigration policies that work. If it works, and no other approach does, what do you suggest we do? Take the incorrect approach, because it feels better? Oversensitivity is about the most self-destructive disorder of the mind, you know.

Replace "America" with "Germany" in that speech, just for the sake of arguement, remove Lamm's name, and hand it to a friend. See who they think the author really is.

This is what is called a loaded question: one that is intentionally misrepresenting the truth or forcing/encouraging a linear response in order to produce a biased result desired by the person asking the question, to support their agenda. It doesn't pass the smell test even from a mile's distance.

And as far as weekend recreation at Oktoberfest goes, we have to realize something. Just because you don't go home and wear lederhosen doesn't mean its not someone's culture.

If it is their culture, they shouldn't be here. If they prefer to wear lederhosen every day, there are countries where that sort of thing is considered appropriate and acceptable. The issue is not--and has never been--festivals and other such events. But you knew that before you loaded that statement.

If hispanics went home and spoke english to eachother and payed no nevermind to their culture except for a once-a-year festival that served Corona instead of Budweiser, would you be more comfortable with that?

Yes, of course. This would mean that they had been assimilated into American culture, which has been the productive approach all along. However, there would still be other problems to fix--exterior appearance/behavior and language use barely scratches the surface of the problem.

[Low-Sci]

So can you tell me who else shouldn't be here?

[Biker]

Oh, anyone who can't pay their own way and doesn't care to be Red, White and Blue through and through.
How's that?

Biker

[Phetro]

So can you tell me who else shouldn't be here?

Oh, anyone who can't pay their own way and doesn't care to be Red, White and Blue through and through.
How's that?

You gotta love Biker: he's on the spot with helpful, succinct statements of such profound truth that his mere presence in a thread makes virtually unnecessary any further comment, other than those of praise for his viewpoint.

In simpler terms: Biker put it a lot better than I would have--but that's what I would have meant.

[Phetro]

Lived in England 22 years including when it really WAS socialist (the meaning of which is not really as fungible as people on the extreme right seem to think).

Uh...yeah, sure. There's just one problem with your assertion:

(psst: England is socialist now. Socialism by any other name still oppresses citizens because of "majority opinion.")

[Low-Sci]

You're right, I don't know where immigrants get the idea that they can just come here and live free.

Its as if someone hung out a sign that says "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free..."

Guess what we really meant by that was "give us your socially conforming, moderately well-off loose folks yearning to be free except not culturally speaking, of course." But that wouldn't fit on the plaque.

[longeyes]

You're right, I don't know where immigrants get the idea that they can just come here and live free.

Its as if someone hung out a sign that says "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free..."


You're close; just change "free" to "freeloaders."

[CAnnoneer]

Some of you still don't get it. Instead of showering us with platitudes about how immigration has been historically good, and other multicultural idealistic stuff like that, please move to SoCal or AZ and see for yourself the damage done by the "huddled masses". L.A. is looking more and more like Mexico. Soon to come to your community, never you worry.

After you are done with the above, explain to us how many millions of the poor, ignorant, illiterates you would be able to absorb in the next 10 years with the currently formed idiotic policies. What do you think is going to happen when all social services and infrastructure collapse, while the region devolves in tribalism, gangs, and poverty? More taxes? More socialism? Secession? Where is the end?

I fear that nothing but the loss of the South West will be enough to shut up the detractors of rational measures today.

[Bigreno]

Oh, anyone who can't pay their own way and doesn't care to be Red, White and Blue through and through.
How's that?

I'd like to +1 that. "Hyphenated" Americans are a large contributor the culrural decay in America right now. No one wants to be American anymore. It's more fashionable to be African-American, Mexican-American etc. Problem being they celebrate the first half of their name and shun the latter. You should not be Mexican-American. You should be AMERICAN of Mexican decent. When you live here (and this is truly your home) it's 4th of July and Presidents Day, not Cinco De Mayo and Kwanza.

One more note. The Mexican flag has NO place on American soil.

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Those here who don't like Mr. Lamm's speech should read "mexifornia."

It explains exactly why Mexican immigration is the problem it is.

The #1 reason is that Mexicans can easily cross an imaginary line and be in their homeland. All other immigrants to America are cut off from their homelands. What's more, with Mexico, there is a constant flow of imiigrants instead of one large group, one genration.

We can assimilate a large group of foreigners who arrive 10s of thousands all at once, and who are seperated from their homeland. We cannot assimilate millions coming through over decades whose homeland is right next to ours, whose language and culture is distinctly different from our own, and who have no common desire amongst them all to be American.

[Gordon Fink]

The Mexicans will be the end of America. Or will it be the Chinese? Or the Italians? Or the Irish? Or the French? Or the English? Or the Spanish? What does the woolly mammoth have to say on the topic?

~G. Fink

[cuchulainn]

One more note. The Mexican flag has NO place on American soil.What about those Irish flags flying in front of those pubs all over America? Do they have a place?

When you live here (and this is truly your home) it's 4th of July and Presidents Day, not Cinco De Mayo and Kwanza.Can I still celebrate St. Paddy's day?

[JohnBT]

"give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free..."

Yet a gift given must be accepted. A gift given is a still a part of an organized process. It's not an unruly invasion. Your quote does not say "Send us your poor whenever you feel like getting rid of them."

John

[telomerase]

The Founding Fathers revolted against King George (http://www.strike-the-root.com/61/walker/walker1.html)because he restricted immigration. Read the Declaration of Independence!

[orionengnr]

well spoken, for a new guy :)

mordechai, well spoken for an old guy :)

Biker, well spoken as always...

[CAnnoneer]

What about those Irish flags flying in front of those pubs all over America? Do they have a place?

No foreign flags, double citizenship, or any divided loyalties should have a place in a sovereign nationalistic self-respectful country that hopes to survive and prosper while being assaulted by globalists, international corporations, special interests, the UN, and the poor desperate mobs of the world. This is a country, not a shopping mall.

[Bigreno]

What about those Irish flags flying in front of those pubs all over America? Do they have a place?

Absolutely. There's a ferry heading west out of Liverpool several times a day to take you there. Just get there early. The minimum check in time is 1 hour and 15 mins.

[cuchulainn]

CAnnoneer: After you are done with the above, explain to us how many millions of the poor, ignorant, illiterates you would be able to absorb in the next 10 years with the currently formed idiotic policies.We've got a very real and very big problem with illegal immigration. But language, holidays and flags aren't pertinent.

The problem is one of economics and crime. Focus on that. The "EEK! Spanish" stuff just gives cover to those who would pretend there's not a problem -- it gives them an excuse to dismiss you as xenophobic (whether you are or not).

Focus on the economic problems. Focus on the crime.

CAnnoneer: No foreign flags, double citizenship, or any divided loyalties should have a place in a sovereign nationalistic self-respectful country that hopes to survive and prosper while being assaulted by globalists, international corporations, special interests, the UN, and the poor desperate mobs of the world. This is a country, not a shopping mall. Pesky 1st Amt. ;)

Color me crazy, but I think we'll survive a few flags.

What about that Vatican flag at the front of my church, next to the American flag?

[CAnnoneer]

What about that Vatican flag at the front of my church, next to the American flag?

If you would like to celebrate a theocracy, why not be multicultural and put up Iran's as well?

But language, holidays and flags aren't pertinent.

It is not just about the economy. Culture is also a problem. Every day there is some Cheech cutting me off with his truck, jaywalking, etc., because his "manana" culture okays such lack of discipline or respect for simple rules. If I end up in an accident, it would not be the economy that drags me to court and/or increases my insurance premiums. And that is only the tip of the iceberg. Then you have the "La Raza" nonsense, bilingual education, a growing sense of entitlement, a nice mesh between latin-american socialism and homegrown leftism, etc. By the time these guys are done, economy will be the last thing we'll have to worry about.

Pesky 1st Amt. Color me crazy, but I think we'll survive a few flags.

So I guess burning American flags, turning them over, or ripping them down to replace with foreign flags should also be okay because of 1A? I wonder what the FFs would think about that. Probably they could not even conceive of such interpretation of their words.

[longeyes]

Culture is destiny.

Those who don't get where the Founding Fathers came from, intellectually, socially, and morally, and why the farther we get from their cultural predicates the more we lose America...well, you have been bitch-slapped too many times by The Invisible Hand.

[dmallind]

psst: England is socialist now. Socialism by any other name still oppresses citizens because of "majority opinion.")

Nope your definition would be that of a "democracy". Britain of course is a parliamentary democracy rather than a pure democracy in the Athenian sense, but is still closer to outright majority rule than we are (or arguably than we were).

On the other hand socialism is an economic and structural market term, has absolutely nothing to do with majority rule or democracy, and is defined thusly:

so·cial·ism
n.

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.


Through the 70s and early 80s Britain moved away from the socialist model whereby one took British Rail or drove a British Leyland car to jobs at British Steel.

I understand this is informal web chit chat and not structured debate, but deliberately using terms incorrectly is a sure sign of a weak argument in either case, as well as, in this specific case, being an overused and tiresome epithet for anything to the left of David Duke on these boards. If you are going to be wrong at least be wrong with originality and use a less hackneyed incorrect term.


And we get upset when people call magazines "clips" yet not when people confuse rather more important terms like "democracy" and "socialism"

[Bigreno]

We've got a very real and very big problem with illegal immigration. But language, holidays and flags aren't pertinent.

Of course they are pertinent. It is the dilution of our culture as Americans. You wouldn't move to China and expect them to speak English and celebrate Columbus Day just because you did before you moved there. Yet that is exactly what is happening here. If you try and talk to them about it always boils down to, "My people owned this land before America did." or "My people were brought here on slave ships so why should I give up my heritage". If you utter the phrase "My People.." and are refering to a minority group or specific section of society then you are not an American. You are a insert "my people" here and you should take your heritage and go back to them if you want to be thought of in that manner. If you wish to be an American, not just a foreigner here to exploit our system, then you embrace and celebrate our culture.

Look, I don't have a problem with immigration. I think the legalization process should be streamlined to help people gain their citizenship. With that being said, if you are sincere about becoming American then do it and don't half arse it. Don't come here and complain when the books are written in English.

[grizz5675]

There's only one way to destroy america and this thread does touch on it .FEAR

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Culture is destiny

~longeyes

This quote is the most important. Don't quibble over stuff like what flag we're going to fly, or language we will speak. Or what is the exact form of government Britain now employs. These things all take second place to the issue of American culture. What is it now? What will it be in the future?

The culture the first Americans came from wasn't perfect. It involved slavery, and oppression of women. But, within it was a respect for private property, and a right to choose any religion or none. Within it was the concept that one's home is his castle. The tenth amendment showed the idea our founders had that people in different regions might want to do things differently, and that this should be respected.

Those things that the largely Anglo-Saxon, heavily Britainized culture were born with led to the condemnation and destruction of slavery and respect for those same rights for women, and the once enslaved blacks.

Nowadays, those same concepts are being threatened by two things.

#1. Modern American Liberalism, which looks upon property as a community granted privilege, regions with less people as not as important as regions with more people, and religion as okay, as long as it isn't too radical or strange. It also has within it those who would like to see the whole one's home is his castle thing done away with as anything more as a privilege.

#2. Foreign cultures which have no inherent concept of a BOR, or inalienable rights. Look, cultures which don't respect people's rights are inherently inferior to cultures that do. Current Mexican culture (from everything I've seen), only respects power, and machismo.

hint:

As long as we continue to allow Mexicans to flow across the border, those who have had it with that culture will escape here instead of changing their country, and their culture.

[Low-Sci]

So are we really going to say that its ok to completely rape the first amendment because we only wanna see one flag flying? Couldn't we, by the same token, decide that flying a state flag is just as bad as another country's flag?

I understand that the immigration process is in dire need of reform, and has been for some time. That said, I don't think that excuses racial or cultural bigotry or the restriction of the first amendment.

Yes, people have a right to burn the American flag. They can burn it, stomp on it, crap on it, pee on it, use it as an after-intercourse towel if they so choose, and when they're done they can fly whatever other flag they like. The first amendment is about having the right to say whatever you like, and not even if its offensive, ESPECIALLY if its offensive. The founding fathers went out of their way to ensure that especially the most heinous, vile speech was protected. If you read about the origins of the bill of rights, that's easily apparent.

I will not ever advocate destroying the first amendment just because I don't like a culture. That would be a black stain on my record as a patriotic american, and so would advocating the abolishment of all cultures that hail from across a chainlink fence or body of water.

[LAK]

This is easy.

1. Control the money

2. Destroy morality

3. Dilute the culture

4. Erode and destroy the elements of national sovereignty

That's not all of it, just three key points. OOps - that's four. I need to add; corrupt the educational system.

-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[cuchulainn]

CAnnoneer: If you would like to celebrate a theocracy, why not be multicultural and put up Iran's as well?Do you really think we Roman Catholics (the largest single denomination in the USA, by the way) are "celebrating theocracy" when we fly the Vatican flag in our churches? Do you think our loyalties are at issue?

CAnnoneer: Every day there is some Cheech cutting me off with his truck, jaywalking, etc., because his "manana" culture okays such lack of discipline or respect for simple rules. Yes, a crime problem. Would his jaywalking somehow be more palatable if he were waving an American flag and cussing you out in English?

CAnnoneer: If I end up in an accident, it would not be the economy that drags me to court and/or increases my insurance premiums.I'm not sure what his flag or languange has to do with that. In any event, there are plenty of native citizens who'd do the same B.S.

CAnnoneer: Then you have the "La Raza" nonsense, bilingual education, a growing sense of entitlement, a nice mesh between latin-american socialism and homegrown leftism, etc. By the time these guys are done, economy will be the last thing we'll have to worry about.Entire school systems had bilingual education 150 years ago (German/English). The Republic didn't fall. All that other stuff is economic (yes, causing worse problems) -- but it ain't due to language and flags.

Bigreno: It is the dilution of our culture as Americans. You wouldn't move to China and expect them to speak English and celebrate Columbus Day just because you did before you moved there. Yet that is exactly what is happening here. 1) I think people who don't learn English are hurting themselves and their children. But I'm not threatened by government forms or signs being in multiple languages. That ain't going to destroy our culture.

2) The Irish came here and started celebrating St. Patrick's day. It wasn't done before. "Real Americans" didn't like it at first ... fights broke out over it. Eventually, it became a bigger deal here than back in Ireland. It didn't destroy us.

Speaking of Columbus Day. Do you gnash your teeth at all those Italian flags that come out? There was an Italian flag on the pizza box last night. Mmmm. Breakfast! Ack! Ack! An Italian Flag. Help! Help! My culture is under attack!

[longeyes]

I will not ever advocate destroying the first amendment just because I don't like a culture. That would be a black stain on my record as a patriotic american, and so would advocating the abolishment of all cultures that hail from across a chainlink fence or body of water.

The First Amendment IS culture. American culture. That is exactly the point. Understand where it came from, what protects it.

[Zrex]

Next St. Patty's day and next Oktoberfest I am going to make sure I tell the Irish and the Germans how they are tearing this country apart. And I certainly won't forget Columbus day - those Italians are really going to get it. :cuss:

Next time I am at a hockey game and see a canadian flag, I am going to BOO cause this is America damn it! Stupid Canadians with their ice and stuff. Foreign flags are evil and hurt our national sovereignty!

And then there is a little town north of here (West, TX) that has a Fest every year to celebrate their Czech heritage.... Friggin Czechs with their delicious beer.... damn them! Destroying this country with their divisiveness!


Oh wait a second.... Those people don't have brown skin like the Mexicans, so its ok for them to celebrate their heritage. :scrutiny:

[Sindawe]

Its a funny thing, we don't have untold millions of Canadians, Czechs, Russians, Laotains or Ethiopians sneaking into this nation in the dead of night. We don't see untold millions of the them taxing our healthcare system, public education system or public welfare system to the breaking point. We don't see tens of thousands of them in the streets DEMANDING immediate amnesty and full citizenship while waving the national flag of Canada, The Russian Federation, Laos or Ethiopia and carrying banners & signs claiming that North America is "stolen" land. We don't press 3 for Farsi, 4 for Mandarin or 5 for German.

We DO have that from nations south of us on the globe, predominantly from Mexico. Funny thing that.

Lots of Americans are not laughing.

[Zrex]

We don't see untold millions of the them taxing our healthcare system, public education system or public welfare system to the breaking point.

Maybe the problem is not the "untold millions" taxing our socialist services, maybe the problem is that we provide those services to begin with. If we got rid of public welfare and public education and let our PRIVATE healthcare system fend for its self, perhaps we wouldn't have a problem?

Is it OK for countless millions of able bodied Americans to be on welfare and tax our public education and heathcare systems?

I pay for my health insurance. I pay for my daughter to go to private schools. I have not now, nor have I ever been on welfare. Why should I pay for anyone to receive those services regardless of their national origin or immigration status? I drive through downtown Waco all the time and I can't tell you how many able bodied adults wandering around hanging out not working. How many of them am I paying for?

The answer is to scrap welfare and public assistance for everyone.

We don't see tens of thousands of them in the streets DEMANDING immediate amnesty and full citizenship while waving the national flag of Canada, The Russian Federation, Laos or Ethiopia and carrying banners & signs claiming that North America is "stolen" land.

They have no standing, who cares what they say? There are lots and lots of citizens of this country that say far worse things and demand worse things. Some of those people have even been elected to congress and the white house.

We don't press 3 for Farsi, 4 for Mandarin or 5 for German.


No, not yet, and somehow I doubt I would get all bent out of shape if that were an option. Besides it doesn't matter what button you push, you are going to talk to someone in India anyway. Maybe they should force you to speak Hindi or something before you get to find out about the error on your phone bill?

[cuchulainn]

Sindawe: Its a funny thing, we don't have untold millions of Canadians, Czechs, Russians, Laotains or Ethiopians sneaking into this nation in the dead of night. No we don't. We've got a huge problem -- and it happens to involve Hispanics aliens.

But all this anger about their flags and holidays and language misses the REAL PROBLEMS -- the criminal and economic damage.

Who cares about flags and language? Focus, people, focus.

Stop giving cover to those who would deny there's a problem at all!

[Thin Black Line]

The Mexicans will be the end of America. Or will it be the Chinese? Or the Italians? Or the Irish? Or the French? Or the English? Or the Spanish? What does the woolly mammoth have to say on the topic?

For the most part, the people causing the "end of America" have been
born and (mostly) raised here.

Thanks for re-posting this speech --I've read it before and it seems even
more relevant now. Lamm definitely knew what was going on, but the
"plan" had been posted in ENGLISH and available for public download for
a while now.

Read more about the North American Union under:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=201786

[longeyes]

None of what's happening could be happening without the active support and encouragement of the scoundrels in D.C. and the all too numerous American employers willing to skirt existing law, along with sympathetic home-grown leftists. Yes, we are being undone by our own.

[LAK]

Language and culture are important - two key elements in any nation.

While we have had pockets of Irish, German, Italian (etc) people in some places in this country in the past, they were quickly assimilated largely due to our shared European civilized culture. Quickly learning the language - those who did not already speak it - accelerated this process.

Much of the enormous sprawling communities in places like L.A. do not share our parent culture and many of them are not learning the language. Many of these people have not the slightest interest in American history and culture - only creating their own.

The language problem is not just the elderly, it is evident in the juvenile and young adult age groups as well. And many of them are indifferent and obstinate with it. It is not unlike the drop out black subculture who not only speak "ebonics" - they have extreme difficulty understanding much real english.

This link between language and culture can not be overstated. Even a very poorly educated person that speaks and understands fluent english can make themselves understood by anyone else, and can communicate with even the most educated person. When a large number of people that do not speak the common language occupy defined geographical areas that simply increase in size, this is a recipe for disaster.

---------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Selfdfenz]

Low-Sci

Hmmm...where shall I begin? Since we are on flags discussions…..

I think you outline with some accuracy the 1st amendment protections accorded people in the US when it comes to the range of debasement they can heap in the US flag as a form of free speech and expression. That's one of the wonderful aspects of what the Founding Fathers did with the US Consitiution.

On the other hand, I can think of several neighborhoods that, if it were the Mexican flag on fire etc. , there is a chance someone might decide to let the air out of the free-speech advocate in short order.

Funny how you and I respect the 1st amendment and others don't seem to care one whit. It's almost like they don't know the laws or came from someplace else of something. Weird.

BTW do you know where I can find any numbers of the ratio of US citizens to illegals in the Madison area? I’d find it of interest.

TC and have a great weekend.

S-

[Phetro]

Nope your definition would be that of a "democracy". Britain of course is a parliamentary democracy rather than a pure democracy in the Athenian sense, but is still closer to outright majority rule than we are (or arguably than we were).

On the other hand socialism is an economic and structural market term, has absolutely nothing to do with majority rule or democracy, and is defined thusly:

so·cial·ism
n.

1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.


Through the 70s and early 80s Britain moved away from the socialist model whereby one took British Rail or drove a British Leyland car to jobs at British Steel.

I understand this is informal web chit chat and not structured debate, but deliberately using terms incorrectly is a sure sign of a weak argument in either case, as well as, in this specific case, being an overused and tiresome epithet for anything to the left of David Duke on these boards. If you are going to be wrong at least be wrong with originality and use a less hackneyed incorrect term.


And we get upset when people call magazines "clips" yet not when people confuse rather more important terms like "democracy" and "socialism"

While you are technically correct, I use the terms interchangably for a reason.

To call a democracy a democracy is in effect praising it, due to the largely successful efforts of the media to pretend that America is and was designed to be such. While democracy is a horrible form of government, most Americans actually believe we have one here, and that it is the most desirable form of government. Mention "democracy" and you'll get cheers. Socialism, on the other hand, gets their attention (though thanks to the dramatic leftward shift across the enitre world, even socialism is becoming accepted by many as legitimate...poor fools). Communism is my favorite term, because it most accurately describes where nations that embrace either of the first two governments are headed. It also is a word that still retains most of its deserved stigma--the other two have been mediafied, and no longer convey the dire warning they should.

So there you have it. I choose to follow practicality and reality rather than technicality in this matter.

[Phetro]

Maybe the problem is not the "untold millions" taxing our socialist services, maybe the problem is that we provide those services to begin with. If we got rid of public welfare and public education and let our PRIVATE healthcare system fend for its self, perhaps we wouldn't have a problem?

That is correct, yes.

Is it OK for countless millions of able bodied Americans to be on welfare and tax our public education and heathcare systems?

Not at all. Both systems should be privatized, which would not only decrease their relative costs, but also improve their efficacy.

I pay for my health insurance. I pay for my daughter to go to private schools. I have not now, nor have I ever been on welfare. Why should I pay for anyone to receive those services regardless of their national origin or immigration status? I drive through downtown Waco all the time and I can't tell you how many able bodied adults wandering around hanging out not working. How many of them am I paying for?

The answer is to scrap welfare and public assistance for everyone.

That would be a solution to many of our nation's troubles. However, it would at that time become necessary for individuals to once again concern themselves with the welfare of others, being that the government would not assist. Therefore, the reinstitution and support of private charities would have to return to pre-World War II levels in order to accommodate the change. And unfortunately, along with the Age of the Nanny State has come the encouraged lack of generosity seen to be so prevalent in every generation since the 1960s. This entire trend needs to be reversed, that Americans once again support each other, and also nurture the good will and brotherly love upon which this nation and many of its institutions, both public and private, were founded.

[Gordon Fink]

Communism is my favorite term, because it most accurately describes where nations that embrace either of the first two governments are headed.…

Actually, that’s not correct. The nation-states you describe are practicing casual socialism, which will never get them to communism … not ever—assuming communism were achievable in the first place, which we would probably agree is not the case.

On topic, I’ll tell you how to solve the “problem” of poor, brown people “illegally” immigrating to the United States. Stop voting for Republicans and Democrats. All their leadership cares about is power and wealth. The Democrats need poor voters to exploit, and the Republicans need poor workers to exploit, so neither has a good reason to stop the flow.

~G. Fink

[Phetro]

Actually, that’s not correct. The nation-states you describe are practicing casual socialism, which will never get them to communism … not ever—assuming communism were achievable in the first place, which we would probably agree is not the case.

We don't agree on that. And banning guns while feminizing entire societies and promoting victimology, and consolidating power from the individual to the government is in no way "casual." That's what most of Europe is doing right now. And that's the brink of communism: where the dictator pretends that the proletariat rules.

On topic, I’ll tell you how to solve the “problem” of poor, brown people “illegally” immigrating to the United States. Stop voting for Republicans and Democrats. All their leadership cares about is power and wealth. The Democrats need poor voters to exploit, and the Republicans need poor workers to exploit, so neither has a good reason to stop the flow.

I'd like to know why you typed the words "problem" and "illegally" in quotation marks. Do you actually think there's not a problem, and that they're getting here legally? :rolleyes:

[Commissar Gribb]

Mexico is land stolen from the natives by the Spanish. How come there aren't people whining and complaining that they lost their heritage and language to the Spanish conquerors?

RETURN MEXICO TO THE AZTECS!

And banning guns while feminizing entire societies and promoting victimology, and consolidating power from the individual to the government is in no way "casual."

If I was a woman, I would be offended by your use of the term "feminizing". LMAO.

[Old Dog]

Phetro, have you actually read Marx? Because your position is ... well, not accurate
That's what most of Europe is doing right now. And that's the brink of communism: where the dictator pretends that the proletariat rules.
... And "feminizing?" Not a verb I'd use for what you're attempting to describe. Spent much time in any European countries lately (with the exception of the U.K.)?
consolidating power from the individual to the government is in no way "casual." Now then, let's get this straight: you're being critical of government for doing what governments do. Would you have any examples of governments that have actually relinquished their power and transferred it back to their citizens? Government by its very nature evolves toward expanding its power, growing its bureaucracy and making more rules, regulations and laws ... This isn't news.

[CAnnoneer]

And "feminizing?" Not a verb I'd use for what you're attempting to describe.

Funny you should mention that. More recently, I have been thinking along the same lines. In a way, Britain weakened and eventually collapsed after they got women voters in the 1870s. Coincidence or cause? Many of the anarchists and intellectual revolutionaries in Russia and Germany were women too. Note that most rabid leftists at home are women as well.

I understand the importance and fairness of equal rights, but cannot help thinking that women are naturally predisposed to softer, less violent, more ameliorative solutions. That is a fine approach when the skies are clear and a nurturing attitude is best. But, in a crisis, I fear a government needs certain callousness and severity, things that many women generally do not possess to the necessary extent.

Go ahead, flame away.

[Gordon Fink]

We don’t agree on that.…
So you think communism is achievable? Do tell? I would love to hear a theory for communism that doesn’t come from a Marxist/Leninist/Maoist/eugenicist/etc.


I’d like to know why you typed the words “problem” and “illegally” in quotation marks. Do you actually think there’s not a problem, and that they’re getting here legally?
I don’t think “illegal” immigration is the problem that folks like you claim to think it is. I also don’t think immigration is a crime, which is another story. If there is any problem, it is the welfare state, and I’m all for scaling that back.

~G. Fink

[XMP]

I think some of the talk of flags and festivals is off track. Of course most people think others should be allowed to remember fondly and even celebrate (occasionally) their heritage. That is completely different than subsidizing that culture. Generations of immigrants from all over the world have retainied aspects of their culture upon coming here; but, they had to accept and willingly participate in AMERICAN culture, in order to succeed. They had to learn the English language, get a job (or two), show up to work on time, etc. We are now making it possible, even attractive, to avoid this.

This American culture has links to Europe and roots in classical Greece, but one can, if so disposed, simply regard that as incidental. The more important things were that it was grounded on reason (the Enlightenment and the rule of Natural law, not laws) and theism (a belief in a creator God, with latitude on how exactly that was understood). Without those core beliefs inalienable rights to "life, liberty and property", free speech, and to bear arms evaporate or can simply be discarded as archaic at the whim of the 51%. If WE don't preserve those things American will die, maybe not right away, but it will simply be a "dead Nation walking".

On a related note, any good social scientist can tell you that an essential element of culture is language. If we lose a common and dominant language America will no longer exist. Sure there might be a country called the USA with similar borders, but it will be a different entity than the one we celebrate on July 4th.

[Low-Sci]

Selfdefenz, I think you're right that some people would quickly advocate turning the first amendment on its head if someone were burning a mexican flag. But those people are just as wrong as people who want to ban the burning of the american flag.

I don't know the real statistics as to hispanic population in madison, but there does seem to be a very large community.

I do think people migrating to this country should learn english. It is the international language of business, and its still this country's dominant language. On the other hand, I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to speak spanish and retain their culture.

[longeyes]

Funny you should mention that. More recently, I have been thinking along the same lines. In a way, Britain weakened and eventually collapsed after they got women voters in the 1870s. Coincidence or cause? Many of the anarchists and intellectual revolutionaries in Russia and Germany were women too. Note that most rabid leftists at home are women as well.

I understand the importance and fairness of equal rights, but cannot help thinking that women are naturally predisposed to softer, less violent, more ameliorative solutions. That is a fine approach when the skies are clear and a nurturing attitude is best. But, in a crisis, I fear a government needs certain callousness and severity, things that many women generally do not possess to the necessary extent.

Go ahead, flame away.

Less Ruth more ruthlessness?

[dmallind]

I lived under Thatcher for 10 years or so. She had more callousness and severity in one finger than Darth Cheney can dream about having. Anybody can say "^&$% you" to a political officeholder - she made sure it actually happened :evil:

I knocked on doors for her second election (I was too young for the first). She was exactly right for Britain at the time, and is the reason the UK is not in anywhere near the economic trouble that France and Italy are now. Indira Gandhi had just a wee touch of political backbone too. Benazir Bhutto as well. Anybody here who would have wanted Golda Meir's job at that time?

Women may have, taken as a whole, slightly different priorities than men, again taken as a whole, but some of the most resolute political leaders of the last few decades have been women.

[Ezekiel]

Women may have, taken as a whole, slightly different priorities than men, again taken as a whole, but some of the most resolute political leaders of the last few decades have been women.

Absolute concur: "Maggie Iron Britches" was a personal favorite.

[CAnnoneer]

Women may have, taken as a whole, slightly different priorities than men, again taken as a whole, but some of the most resolute political leaders of the last few decades have been women.

It goes without question that there are notable exceptions. But, as a voting mass, they are very different.

[Malone LaVeigh]

So I guess burning American flags, turning them over, or ripping them down to replace with foreign flags should also be okay because of 1A?
Well, yes, as a matter of fact.

[BFWE]

I really like that!

[Biker]

This whole illegal immigrant thing has been blown out of proportion. As White House Press Secretary Tony Snow said today when addressing the merits of the guest worker program, "If you had a traffic ticket and you paid it, you're not forever a speeder, are you?"

Biker aka an Ex-Republican

[LAK]

Baroness Thatcher certainly had some integrity, patriotism and guts. Three elements distinctly lacking in her fellow party leaders; who forced her out of the "conservative" party because of her opposition to the further integration of Britain into the EU.

What a shame we do not have a single man in the WH with the same virtues.

----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[thesneakyrussian]

"If you had a traffic ticket and you paid it, you're not forever a speeder, are you?"


as a matter of fact, yes you are, for a limited time but you are. using same logic: if you've had commited a crime and served your time or paid the fine, you're no longer a criminal, but in reality -- you're for the rest of your life, but it's a whole different story.

[Biker]

The way the White House and Senate are trying to trivialize the situation is what sickens me.
With that statement alone, they threw another fistful of sand in the vaseline.

Biker

[Thin Black Line]

Continued integration of the North American Union:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060331-1.html

Blair tells future US leaders we need a stronger UN:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5020358.stm

[longeyes]

The way the White House and Senate are trying to trivialize the situation is what sickens me.
With that statement alone, they threw another fistful of sand in the vaseline.

They will say and do anything to get what they want. I think most of these people are sociopaths (aka politician) for whom lying is second nature.

What I have seen of Tony Snowjob so far--his chummy, clubby, glib, collegial Mr Nice Guy con act--is repellent. He thinks we are all huddling at some toney D.C. watering hole. Tony, you are a fine lapdog; enjoy your Alpo.

[JesseJames]

Get out there and VOTE on election day. Start group discussions and really think about what it means to be a patriot.

That's why I love "The High Road".

I hope John McCain gets the Republican ticket. Then I'll finally have someone worth voting for.

America is STRONG. Let's keep it strong by putting the right folks in political office.

[wingman]

I hope John McCain gets the Republican ticket.

Well you had me until McCain, he is too much like T. kennedy.If he ran against Hillary I would stay home unless there was a third party slot.

[Mr.V.]

I can't help but feel we had this EXACT conversation before.
a yes... here it is:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=138641

[longeyes]

Jesse, don't turn your back on John McCain, that's all I can say.:evil:

[Ezekiel]

"Honestly?"

This isn't terribly complex: we destroy America when we become AmeriKa by knee-jerking to threat: which is exactly what we are doing.

"It's not hard to understand." :banghead:

[Selfdfenz]

I hope John McCain gets the Republican ticket. Then I'll finally have someone worth voting for.

America is STRONG. Let's keep it strong by putting the right folks in political office.

:barf:

No, make that a double :barf: :barf:

S-

[longeyes]

McCain is a variant on the Ted Kennedy-George Bush-John Kerry model. Look at his history and you'll get the pattern.

His election would be a disaster. You'd think everyone on this board at least would fathom that after "McCain-Feingold" and "McCain-Kennedy." I can hardly wait for McCain-Clinton or McCain-Schumer.

[wingman]

This was taken from McCain's website and his speech on senate bill on immigration:


(And of course, I commend Senator Kennedy, who is perhaps the leading expert on this difficult issue. He and I spent many months working to develop a comprehensive, reasonable, workable legislative proposal, much of which is contained in the bill before us. I also want to thank Senators Brownback, Lieberman, Graham, Salazar, Martinez, Obama, and Dewine for their shared commitment to this issue, and working to ensure this bill moved successfully intact through the legislative process.)