foot,per,pound???????


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turkey45
May 24, 2006, 12:31 PM
..ok,i will try to ask this question???does perodex powder,
equal,to say Goex FFFG in energy,i got my frirst long-rifle
it is a 30,caliber and im wanting to get the most energy
from the gun that is possible,out of say 30,grains of any
type of powder,,,so i will make it simple what powder
make the little bullet go the fastest,,shot the hardest..
....thanks for all replys..

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denster
May 24, 2006, 01:07 PM
For the same volume charge Hodgens 777 will give you more velocity then Goex or Pyrodex.

Smokin_Gun
May 24, 2006, 01:26 PM
In a word Turkey45 ...'No', pyrodex doesn't equal Goex BP. I am sure with your .32 or .36 cal rifle you can achieve the same velosity with Pyrodex just use more. But foot pounds of energy by volume BP wins. I use nothing but Black Powder myself...I swear by it for consistancy. I am sure 777 FFg would work well too. But I pack my loads down tight in long guns and revolvers...herd tell 777 doesn't work well compressed, inconsistant. So I stick with what works best for me "Holy Black".

denster
May 24, 2006, 02:08 PM
SmokinGun

You heard right 777 preforms best with minimal compression unlike "Holy Black" that likes to be squeezed some. Only benifit to 777 is it does clean up easier and it will give higher velocity with the same volume load. Don't get me wrong while I like the "Heathen Powder" there is nothing wrong with "Holy Black"

sundance44s
May 24, 2006, 02:11 PM
Smokein i`m afraid your wrong on this one pyrodex 3f is the more powerful volume to volume than the goex real black 3f , test it for yourself , i have . I do remember when it wasn`t , they sure have improved the pyrodex .

MCgunner
May 24, 2006, 05:49 PM
You can still get black powder in **********??? I can't get it within 150 miles of me and don't feel like drivin'. Pyrodex is available, so therefore it HAS to work.:D

Smokin_Gun
May 24, 2006, 06:08 PM
Sundance I stand corrected on the word "Volume". What I meant to say was Black Powder has more poop than Pyrodex used as it's equivalent measurement by volume (example: 30gr of BP has a higher velosity and produces more energy than the Pyrodex equivalent at 20.5gr) 30.8gr of Pyrodex equals 45gr of Black powder. So yes I was incorrect in stating that as both of equal volume.
Thanks for pointing that out Sundance
:OD

Smokin_Gun
May 24, 2006, 06:13 PM
When it comes to not being able to get Holy Black I will make my own...HeHe!
I just drive into town and pick it up $16 a lb. Be damned if I'll pay $20 for non Black powder...will order it first and pay hasmat fee for 25lb. of it...why does everyone think California is so strict, Try Illinois or Mass.
It ain't so bad here....LoL!

MCgunner
May 24, 2006, 07:36 PM
why does everyone think California is so strict, Try Illinois or Mass.
It ain't so bad here....LoL!

Probably because of posts like this one in the revolver forum I'm always reading. BP being an explosive, you'd just naturally think the Orwellian government of ********** would have it restricted to politicians, movie stars, and millionaires or something.







I think it's time for a 44 magnum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, it has been a while...no new guns for more than a year (not counting an incomplete AR project in the safe). Lately, I have developed a need for a 44 magnum... for hiking, camping, SD and all around revolver shooting fun.
Now, I'm trying to make up my mind as to which one...S&W, Taurus or Ruger. Now the CA DOJ has provided me w/ a list of handguns they have deemed as safe and available for ownership in my state so they have narrowed the field some what, I just need it narrowed to one or two.
Personally, I'm looking for 4 or 6 inch barrel, maybe ported, med to large frame and capable of withstanding a lot of handloaded 44 mag
Thanks for the help

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2006, 12:50 AM
Yeah I see what you mean about some of the new registered "Firearms" laws.(i.e. new handguns)That law pertains to having a new handgun pass the safety standrds to be allowed in CA. They charge the Comany a large fee to allow it to be here(more$). Fortunately the "Antique Firearms" laws still hold to the 2nd Amendment in California, so does the sale of "Holy Black". Things are still better here than in some other States, even though I don't agree with the politics or guns laws we now have. I just like shootin' Black Powder. I can buy as many C&B Revs as many as I want and walk out the store with a few cans of BP. That I like...I have shot pyrodex and 777. It just ain't the same for me. That's what like about these forums diversity and choice. Sharing info... trying and comparing. But I will be usin' BP till they stop sellin' it...even then I may try to perfect my own.
MCgunner what do you prefer loading in your Revolvers? WHat revolvers? What size loads/calibers?

sundance44s
May 25, 2006, 10:54 AM
Smokin if someone would have gave me a can of pyrodex back in the 70`s i wouldn`t have used it .. i`ve had to buy some these days out of just plain not being able to find any holy black at times , i thought it felt stouter than the real black in my pistols ...and then i did the old phone book test on both .. and the pyrodex shot through 200 more pages than the real black loaded volume to volume .

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2006, 11:34 AM
Sundance as long as you are happy with Pyrodex and it works well for you I and understand why you like it and it's readily available. I respect that.
But there is a noticable differance between shooting Black Powder and Pyrodex. You can check with other shooters, any loading charts any you will see which powders are where and what when it comes to Veloscity, and Ft. Lbs. of Energy produced. And as far as accuracy goes I am sure I could work up loads in all my BP Revs to shoot 2 1/2" groups at 25 yards as I do with my black powder loads. But back to the reason I don't use Pyrodex. Because I like Black Powder...I like the way it shoots, kicks, cracks, smells and cleans up. I have been usin' it for 26 years and I really don't want to change from it cause it works better for me than all else I have tried. I also like doin' things the way they were done call me an originalist I guess. I hope you follow me on this, as is just the way like to do it. Same as you...
I even did the phone book penetration tests. And we have some thick phonebooks in L.A. LoL! Suggestion soak the phonebooks in water when you next test the penetration method. Closer to shooting in jell blocks.

sundance44s
May 25, 2006, 12:15 PM
Didn`t think about watersoaking the phone book good idea ... Only problem with the phone books they don`t hold together very well after about 6 shots ..made convedei out of `em .. maybe water loged they`d hold together longer . I was glad to see the black powder loads in my 44`s were much hotter than a modern 38 special load ... it was the first time i had fired the 38 since i bought my first 44 cap and ball . 44`s gotta be my wepon of choice .

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2006, 05:16 PM
I'm a big .44 C&B fan too. Started with a .36 1851 Navy Brasser. Worked on that one every time I took it out...LoL! Trade it for a very nice Bowie Throwing Kife...I done well. Have always had one or two .36 cal revs. I am down to one now again but won't trade this Uberti 1851 off for nothin' Shoots sweet! The last one i trade was an 1836 Pietta Paterson. I really liked it alot and had to have one for my collection. But! I had a friend that wanted one and He had a Uberti 1858 Rem to trade me. He said my Paterson was worth more and wouldn't be a fair trade. Well I didn't have a Uberti Rem and just gave my Son the Pietta Target model I had. Long story short we traded and are both happy with the deal. I do love 1858 Remingtons...but own alot of Colts..LoL!
Them water soaked phonebooks were used to test a overall 24" long 12ga single shot shotgun with a 18" barrel. I tried a dry book first with 00 buck.
:what: Man...talk about confetti...LMAO! Then I wet the books down for other testing. Nope, the Shotgun is gone...long ago and far way.

MCgunner
May 25, 2006, 07:30 PM
Oh, if I could get BP I'd use it! But, thanks to uncle Sam's shipping regs, nearest town I can get it in his Houston and that's 120 miles to the city limits. So, I'm stuck with substitutes. I have thought a lot about making my own, but seems like a pain and some investment in equipment would be needed.

MCgunner what do you prefer loading in your Revolvers? WHat revolvers? What size loads/calibers?

I guess you're talkin' smokeless one? I've only got two cap and balls. One of 'em's a .31 that's just sort of a toy and then my Old Army I shoot Lee conicals in.

I have at present, lessee:

Blued Ruger .357 Magnum blackhawk 6.5"
Stainless .45 Colt Blackhawk 4 5/8"
Nickeled Taurus M66 .357 magnum 4"
Alloy/stainless Taurus M85UL 2" .38 special
Blued Smith and Wesson M10 4" heavy barrel .38 special
Rossi M68 blued 3" five shot J frame size gun in .38 special
Rossi M511 Sportsman 4" .22 LR kit gun
NAA .22 mini revolver

.45 colt I shoot unique behind a Lee 255 grain flat nose for about 900 fps. It's a 1" five shot 25 yard load. My hot .45 load is a hefty charge of 2400 behind a Hornady 300 grain XTP to about 1125 fps. Just as accurate as the cast bullet load and hits with authority.

.38, I have a light load for the Taurus .38 about 2.3 grains of bullseye, I think, behind a 105 grain SWC. Also, the good ol' 2.6 grains Bullseye and 148 grain wadcutter for my other .38s and .357s. 5.0 grain unique behind a 158 grain cast SWC is another standby load that's a little hotter. I load (when I leave out charge weights it means I have it written down but can't remember off the top of my head) 2400 behind a 140 grain JHP in .38special for a +P combat load.

.357 magnum I have a 17 grain 2400/140 JHP load, 18 grains 2400/125JHP load, and a standby 14.5 grains 2400/158 grain cast, gas checked SWC. Also, 14.5 grains AA#9 behind a 180 grain Hornady XTP is a WAY hot load that I will only shoot in my Blackhawk. It is a little sticky on extraction in that gun. I don't shoot it in the Taurus. The 158 grain SWC load is what I shoot the most in the caliber, cast the bullet. Killed a couple of deer with it, too.

Hope that answers your question?

Smokin_Gun
May 25, 2006, 09:36 PM
A very impressive collection...that I wouldn't mind havin' at all.LoL!
I have offed my .45 1911's, .44,.22/3-30/.44Mag/7mm T/C Condender, .45 Star, S&W .357 Highway Patrol N frame, sold all my reloading equipment. Ruger Police Service Six Stainless 2 1/2" is left. I went to BP Revs years ago. Have eight of them now. But yes you answered my question thank you.
I went back in time as a Mountain man and have evolved into an Old West Gunslinger. Must be gettin' Old...LoL!

Low Key
May 26, 2006, 07:57 AM
These figures were taken from Mike Cumpsten and Johnny Bates book Percussion Pistols and Revolvers, P132:

28Gr/Vol. Pyrodex P 975fps
28gr Goex fffg 795fps
28gr Swiss fffg 959fps
All fired from an Uberti 1858 Remington replica.

I can't get real BP around here unless I want to order it off the net and eat the $20 hazmat fee, which I might actually do at some point but money's tight right now. I've used H777, but it's too expensive even though I've learned not to compress it much and get good accuracy from it. I've gone through a couple of pounds of pyrodex P and I like it pretty well. It has more punch than regular bp and the price is right at my local gunshop. I don't mind using the subs instead of real bp and I've not run into any problems with them. I've still got enough Goex fffg for about 25-30 shots, so on July 4th I'm going to use it for 12 shots or so to celebrate the freedoms we still have left.

sundance44s
May 26, 2006, 10:33 AM
Lowkey .. real black is getting really hard to find here too ( Memphis is the nearest place for me ) you`d think a big city like Memphis it would be easy to find ... most of the stores that use to stock it here quit because of regulations on storage of it ..the one store that does stock it here has too keep it off the shelf in a back room in a special container .. so a lot of folks don`t even know they have it .. the pyrodex is still on the shelf along with 777 APP and the rest of the subs. My remmies do well with the pyrodex p but the stuff is harder to clean up than the real black ..and i don`t care much for the smell when fired .. i am supprised at how stout it shoots for the price though .. its half the price of the 777 here .

MCgunner
May 26, 2006, 10:38 AM
I've still got enough Goex fffg for about 25-30 shots, so on July 4th I'm going to use it for 12 shots or so to celebrate the freedoms we still have left.

Went to the range on San Jacinto day and made some smoke in memory of the brave Texans that made Texas free. :D My mini re-enactment I reckon.

I ain't givin' up my modern guns, like 'em too much. But, I do want to expand my black powder horizons a bit. :D I do want a Remmie.

Smokin_Gun
May 26, 2006, 10:41 AM
Lowkey what is the velocity of "Pyrodex"? Pyrodex and Pyrodex +P are not the same thing. +P to Pyrodex is as Swiss BP is to Goex. Curious to what the book says about Plain Ol Pyrodex, as that's what was being referrefered to.
Thanks

gmatov
May 27, 2006, 02:12 AM
Smoke,

What IS +P?

I was just at the Hodgon's site and did not see +P, just Pyrodex. Have I missed it?

I think I will stick to just plain Goex, thank you, I can still get it, just have to drive about 30 miles. That is not all that far. AND, it is about 6 bucks a can cheaper than the subs that I can get closer to home.

Cheers,

George

Low Key
May 27, 2006, 08:21 AM
I only know of 2 grades of Pyrodex, they are RS and P. RS is for Rifle/shotgun and is equivalent to ffg blackpowder, P is for pistols and is equivalent to fffg blackpowder in granulation.

Went to the range on San Jacinto day and made some smoke in memory of the brave Texans that made Texas free. My mini re-enactment I reckon.

I ain't givin' up my modern guns, like 'em too much. But, I do want to expand my black powder horizons a bit. I do want a Remmie.

You make me proud Mcgunner! I ended up touching off 12 shots yesterday with some of my Goex as my little tribute for memorial day.
I have both modern and bp guns, M1 Garand, mini-30, SKS, S&W model 10 38 spec, Para-ordinance 45 auto, (3) 1858 Remingtons, etc. I say you should get a remmie, you'll never regret the investment!

real black is getting really hard to find here too ( Memphis is the nearest place for me ) you`d think a big city like Memphis it would be easy to find ... most of the stores that use to stock it here quit because of regulations on storage of it

Same story here. My local supplier quit carrying real bp because of the regs, :( He still has the subs, so I still have a nearby source for powder. I found a source for free lead yesterday, so that really put my cost per shot down around cheap! :D :D

Steve499
May 27, 2006, 05:05 PM
Low Key, I lucked onto some of that free lead a while back, too. I cast about half of it into ingots and traded it for 5 pounds of Goex at my favorite gun shop. The last time I was in there he asked me if I wanted to trade any more, but I'm keeping the rest for ME.

Steve

sundance44s
May 27, 2006, 05:44 PM
FREE Lead ! something i only dream about .......:(

Low Key
May 28, 2006, 07:13 AM
Free lead...


Check you local scrapyard, they may have some old lead pipes...check with a local plumber also as they sometimes come across lead pipes.
The x-ray plates that dentists use have a lead backing, ask your dentist to save those for you...most will and will be happy to do so.
Wheel weights are mostly lead mixed with tin and antimony for hardness...you would have to smelt them to seperate the lighter metals but you can use them (basic smelting--heat the metal until it melts, toss in a pea sized piece of beeswax...wait til the smoke subsides and DON'T BREATHE IT! Stir the mixture with a ladle and skim the grayish stuff off the top...this is the tin and antimony and you should have pretty pure lead left over in the molten state)
Divers weights are made of lead
Fishing sinkers are pretty pure lead

sundance44s
May 28, 2006, 12:06 PM
The scrap yards here don`t handle lead anymore ,.,. something about the EPA .. man they are makeing it hard for me . i`m gonna start useing lead shot gun shot its less than a buck a lb ... and clean ..and sportsmans warehouse has lots of it , the plumbers lead i`ve been getting went up to 202 a lb . it was clean too (ingots) .

Third_Rail
May 28, 2006, 01:06 PM
What about lead sheeting from Home Depot or the like? They sell 60lb rolls for $80 around here. Unsure of the purity, but it bends like nothing.

Low Key
May 29, 2006, 07:37 AM
You can put a scratch in pure lead with your thumbnail, try that on a spot on that sheeting. If you can scratch it, it's probably pure or nearly pure lead. Lead is lead from any source and if there are impurities in it, they most likely melt at a higher temp and will float on the lead after it is melted and can be skimmed off.

MCgunner
May 29, 2006, 10:24 AM
I just pick it up off the back stop at our club's pistol range when no one else is out there which is usually, on a week day. It's like a little lead mine. Just pick 'em up off the dirt. I can sit there and in about 15 minutes fill a 1 lb (okay, 11.5 ounce) coffee can with lead. I can buy wheel weights, but haven't had to buy any in quite a while. That's got a lot of antimony in it, but seems to work just fine in smoke poles.

What about lead sheeting from Home Depot or the like? They sell 60lb rolls for $80 around here.

That's over a buck a pound. You can do that good buying 25 lbs of shotgun shot and use the empty backs for shooting off of at the range. I fill 'em with corn cob media from my case cleaner, lighter than sand. I've never given the Goodyear guy more'n $.50 a lb for wheel weights, sometimes he's in a good mood and goes for $.25. Shotgun shot is easy and clean to use and the pure lead is cheaper than the "hard shot" which has added antimony.

Third_Rail
May 29, 2006, 11:29 AM
MCgunner - cheaper than the $2/lb you buy ingots for, though. More expensive than range lead or whatnot, but still, a relatively cheap solution.

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