Camping in Allegheny National Forest in PA

[Avizpls]

I am going to be camping for a weekend in the Allegheny National Forest. I need help choosing which gun(s) to take.

some things to consider:
1) We are not going to be on a campground, but just off in the woods somewhere.
2) I may not be goign onto designated trails, and encountering other hikers.
What should I take? I have the following at my disposal:
3) I will be the only one with a firearm. There are two of us.
4) My car will not be close to the camp site.
6) I will be in a tent.

The options:
.44Mag Ruger Redhawk (Single Action)
.357Mag Ruger Redhawk (Single Action)
.40SW Taurus PT140
.45ACP Kimber Ultra Carry
9mm KelTec P11
5.56x45mm KelTec SU16
12gauge Remmington 870

Those are the ones I'm considering. I am shying away from the long guns since I don't want to leave anything at the tent, and since I dont want to attract any negative attention on the trails. (both are "assault weapons" :barf: ) I like the power of the .44, but i don't like the single action aspect. also, reloads would be real slow since the cyl doesn't swing out-it has the reloading "gate" thing.

What are your thoughts?



Also, a little off topic: What are your general notes of advice for camping there? Fires? Light 'em up anywhere? hows that work?

Thanks all!!

[Lou629]

Mr Ranger definitely takes a dim view of folks just making up their own rules as they go along. Check out their website first before you go, it has all the updates on fire restrictions/safety and rules & regs. as regards open fires, firearms and so on. Search USDA forest service or try www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/allegheny. I'm not trying to rain on your parade here, just trying to save you a potential problem with Mr Ranger. Have a good trip.

[ACORN]

My buddies and I used to go there every other weekend and camp out. About a mile upstream from the Nebraska Bridge, near Tionesta, if you are familiar with the area. Watch out the last time, the Pa Fish and Waterways officer told us we needed permission to camp there. The land was leased out to Hammermill Paper Co. He was cool and let us stay, but warned us that he was coming back the following Monday, and if he found as much as a cigarette butt on the ground, we were all being cited. You might not be as lucky. I've heard they are getting tough up there.

[Leanwolf]

.45ACP Kimber Ultra Carry :cool:


L.W.

[B36]

Did you mean 'Redhawk':confused:

Check www.handgunlaw.us

[driven]

For protection either long gun will work great with the right ammunition, but carrying a rifle or shotgun all the time can be tough.
Pistols aren't nearly as powerful, and if I wanted to be prepared for the toughest predator to take down in that part of the country, I'd say it would be a black bear. 44 Mag is great in that regard, but like you implied, if you have a single action it isn't great when many rounds need to be fired in a hurry (read two or more agressive targets). If you are more worried about two legged varmits, the Kimber Ultra might be the best choice over all with 230gr "full power" defensive loads, assuming the range will be short. You're not going to be too worried about exessive penetration out in the woods, and you'll need all you can get out of a .45 ACP on a black bear.

[22-rimfire]

I'd take a 22 and do some plinking. You actually concerned about running into a Black Bear? The only Black Bears that like to eat people are in Tennessee.

You could take some extra stuff and leave it in the car just in case you want more power.

[Avizpls]

I just found out my girlfreidn has never been camping at all. Let alone the kind without neighbors :)


Thanks for all the comments guys, keep em coming.


Lou,

AFAIK, and an email is sent to confirm, I CAN pack in National Forests and State Forests, but not Nat. Parks or State Parks. Whatever. I'll keep in the "National Forest" section of town ;-) I do know that I wont be able to go into any of the visitor centers, ranger stations, etc while arms as they are federal buildings.


B36,

I THINK I did....whats the problem?



driven,

hmm....so mabey I need to go get a DA/SA 44mag....


22-rimfire,

I like 22s as much as the next guy, but I think that a populated wooden area with rangers left and right wouldnt be the best place to hone my target shooting skills.

[TallPine]

.44Mag Ruger Redhawk (Single Action)
.357Mag Ruger Redhawk (Single Action)

Redhawk is double action ... :confused:

You mean Blackhawk ????


You might as well take the .44, since it is the same weight as the .357 (unless you have an old "flat top" .357 BH)

[Pilot]

I would take the Kimber Ultra Carry. Any pistol is fine for PA. When I lived there I used to carry a 9MM CZ-75D PCR when backpacking. It was light and compact enough to not be a hinderance. Before the PCR I carried a Bulgie Makarov for PA backpacking.

Here in Colorado, its a different story. The critters are a lot bigger and more plentiful.

[Avizpls]

TallPine,

You might be right. Honestly, my uncle lent them to me cuz I was interested to shot some single action revolvers. I'm ashamed to admit that I dont know much about them...I have the serial number of all of my guns memorized though!!

Thanks for the tips guys. Ill PROBABLy end up with the kimber.






I spoke with my uncle. He also has a .357mag DA revolver and some speed loaders...that or the kimber?

[driven]

you might want to look into pepper spray as your first line of defense. Here's one example, http://www.tbotech.com/bearspray.htm

Then bring along the gun that you feel the most comfortable with using and packing 24/7. I've got a Springfield Armory Micro, and just like your Kimber it's a handful to control during rapid fire. Bears aren't a big threat where you are going but I've always thought that if you start with the largest problem and solve it, you then solve a lot of smaller ones. :)

I've been on few trips like that myself and my picks were either a Colt Government Model in 10mm, a S&W M629 in .44 magnum, or a S&W M19 in .357 magnum.

[Avizpls]

Im not gonna fret about bears too much. Ill just take my usual daily carry-the kimber. unless I can get that 357 DA....:banghead:

.45ACP autoloader

or

.357MAG revolver and speedloaders?

[NineseveN]

So how'd the trip go Avisplz?


BTW:
AFAIK, and an email is sent to confirm, I CAN pack in National Forests and State Forests, but not Nat. Parks or State Parks. Whatever. I'll keep in the "National Forest" section of town ;-) I do know that I wont be able to go into any of the visitor centers, ranger stations, etc while arms as they are federal buildings.


Does this mean that you received confirmation that it is okay to carry in State Parks? From whom? I just received word that it was illegal without a hunting license, and then you'd have to follow the regs from the Game Comish' and do so only in season. I e-mailed the DCNR and asked for more clarification and received none so far.

I'm in Johnstown (originally from Pgh), so Agh Nat. is a long haul for me, but I used to go there all the time when I was younger....I have a couple of State Forests right near me, and if they're off-limits then there's really nowhere I can go to camp in this state aside from private land (I don't have any) or Agh Nat. Forest.

Then funny thing, I just went to Gallitzin a couple of weeks ago and we had two rifles with us, I called the DCNR beforehand and was told that a rifle for protection was okay...I wanted it in writing so I e-mailed the same question and got a different answer.

[Avizpls]

I can carry in a national forest-but not in any of the buidlings, as they are federal buidlings. this includes ranger stations.

I can carry in a state forest

I can not carry in a national park

I can not carry in a state park-but not by STATE law.

[NineseveN]

I can carry in a state forest

Sorry if I seem obtuse, but according to who and carry what (concealed, open, handgun or rifle or does it not matter?) and why (i.e. because you have a hunting license or a CCW permit or state regulations/law?).

Here's what I got back from the DCNR (Suzanne Blough from Gallitzin Forest District #6 specifically) about firearms in State Forests:

Carrying of firearms is in accordance with the PA Game Commission rules and regulations – must have a current hunting license and follow hunting rules and regulations.

Conflicting information = bad stuff.

[coat4gun]

Attention to names is critical as they are not interchangeable. There is a large difference between a PA State PARK and PA State FOREST. Prince Gallitzin is a State PARK and regulations do not allow Loaded firearms outside of vehicle or camper. While this is in direct contradiction to PA CCW Law, it is being enforced by PA DCNR. There are even differences in the regs from State FOREST to State FOREST and State PARK to State PARK. It is a mess to say the least.

As stated by Avizpls, carry in PA State FORESTS and National FORESTS is allowed.

There are a few National PARKS in PA where carry is not allowed (YET).

Open Carry is allowed State Wide (except where CCW is restricted), but Game Commissioners can make the assumption that if armed you are hunting/poaching and may question you if seen in the woods, hence the response you got from the DCNR. I have heard of no reports of this happening but there are sections in the Game Law that leaves the door open for it (of course I am not sure how they expect someone who never hunts to know the Game Law).

There are many conflictions (is that a word?) between State Game Law and State CCW Law that still need to be sorted out. For the most part, Game Law is outdated and needs to be revised for today's CCW environment. Most of it was written in the times of Over hunting and Poaching and there was no such thing as State regulated CCW.

I carry everywhere, or I don't go there.

[Highland Ranger]

The only Black Bears that like to eat people are in Tennessee.

Not sure if that is a joke or not - but for the record, Black Bears in Western NJ and PA are routinely bigger than humans.

Don't have any stats for you but I see a few different bears near the house that are bigger than me.

Have to be 400 pounders . . . .

And even a "small" 200lb bear is still 200 pounds of wild animal.

Not safe, cute or cuddly . . . . . unless you are part of the "Save the Bears" bumper sticker crowd - read as, person with no experience living in bear country.

[NineseveN]

coat4guns:


Actually, "Prince Gallitzin State Park" is a State Park (hence the name), Gallitzin State Forest is a State Forest (hence the name yet again). These are two separate entities, not related to one another aside from the source of their names.


The contact that I had with the DCNR was in clearly regards to the state forests (see the reference to Forest District #6, which is a state forest district, not a state park indicator).


Gallitzin State Forest
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/stateforests/gallitzin.aspx

Prince Gallitzin State Park
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/stateparks/Parks/princegallitzin.aspx


I was told by the DCNR that carrying firearms without a current and valid hunting permit is not permitted, I have not received the claririfcation that I asked for from them yet, but perhaps Gallitzin SF does not allow firearms where other SF's do...which was news to me as in the first contact I had with the people from Gallitzin SF said firearms were okay.

Aviplz stated that he could carry in a state forest, indicating an all encompassing green light to carry, however, so far, the folks from the Gallitzin State Forest beg to differ, or maybe they don't, they've given me both answers in less than 3 weeks time.

[XDKingslayer]

Where in the ANF did you, or are you, going to stay? That's my old stomping grounds, I was born and raised up there.

[coat4gun]

NineseveN:

Apparently I was wrong in assuming that you did not know the difference between State Parks and State Forests. I apologize.

We do seem to agree that the rules/policies/laws are in conflict and not even the officials seem to know which to follow. A dangerous situation for "we the people" in my mind.

And I forgot to mention that if it were my choice, I would carry the .45ACP Kimber Ultra Carry concealed. Fairly light, easy to conceal and will handily stop any threat that may live in PA woods.

[Avizpls]

Here is what I have to go on.


There is no nway I'm gonna find this crap again.....


from http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/allegheny/recreation/

Pennsylvania Gun Laws:
To carry a concealed weapon, you must have a protection weapon permit from your county sheriff in PA. If you are from out-of state, you must have a protection permit in your state, and have a protection permit from Pennsylvania. Warren County sheriff will not issue Ohio residents a protection permit, but will issue a sportsmen’s permit that allows concealed weapons for hunting and fishing only. You may bring weapons that are not concealed (hunting rifles, shotguns, side arms). When transporting it is recommended to carry firearm and ammunition in separate areas – (i.e. Carry firearm in the trunk and ammunition in the car.) Target practice must comply with the PA. Game Commission regulations, i.e. no firing into live trees (see hunting license handbook). Target shooting is recommended at ranges set up for that purpose (sportsmen's clubs). We recommend on the ANF using stone pits with a high back wall. Contact the county sheriff for additional information.



from http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/allegheny/recreation/dispersed_camping_files/Disp_Rec_Policy_5_06.pdf

Firearms – Firearms may be used in a manner consistent with Federal, State, and local laws, and good
safety practices. All firearms users must provide for an adequate backstop behind their target area.
Trees, signs, and other public property shall not be used as targets or backstops. All trash including
brass and spent targets must be removed from National Forest lands (36 CFR 261.9(a), 36 CFR
261.10(d), 36 CFR 261.11(d)).

Those plus an email from someone who is representitive of the National Forest saying essentially the same thing.

[NineseveN]

That's for the National Forests (we know about the NF's), not the State Forests.

Folks are saying State Forests are okay (which is the impression that I was always under as well), but that's not what the DCNR told me just a few days ago (not without a hunting license and without following game laws).

I'm not trying to pick on you, but without something that specifically states that carrying firearms in State Forests are okay (and to what extent), it's not responsible to state that; folks might end up on the wrong side of the law and that's not cool.

I'm stuck on a call for the afternoon, so I might not have time to contact the State Forrester's Office today, but I'm going to try.

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/incont.aspx

[coat4gun]

Ok, it took me awhile to find this but here are two prime examples of where the PA Game Code can cause problems.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=478&q=151077#2301

Under Section 2301.(a).(1), I could be accused of hunting in my bedroom... Of course that's ridiculous, but this kind of open ended Law leaves way to much to interpretation and could easily be used to require a hunting license to walk through the woods with a sidearm... and of course it would have to be during a hunting season... with a firearm type allowed during that season... and of course no semi-auto pistols because you can't hunt with them in PA.

This stuff has to be changed...

And another Code along a slightly different line....

Section 901.(a).(6),(7) and (8) all seem in direct violation with the US BOR. They seem to allow search without probable cause... at least that's how I read it.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=478&q=151035#901

There are others that I don't have time to quote at the moment, but I suspect that is where the interpretation that NineseveN was given above came from.

[NineseveN]

Of course that's ridiculous, but this kind of open ended Law leaves way to much to interpretation and could easily be used to require a hunting license to walk through the woods with a sidearm... and of course it would have to be during a hunting season... with a firearm type allowed during that season... and of course no semi-auto pistols because you can't hunt with them in PA.


Exactly. That's the problem we run into without specific regulations in writing (like we have for the National Forests) in regards to firearms in State Forests. I've done it many times, but apparently I was unknowingly breaking the law, or was I?

If Allegheny National Forest is the only real (legally documented) place in PA for folks to camp or hike with firearms other than their own private land or private land with the permission of the owners, we're not in very good shape where outdoor recreation is concerned.

I know what the common mantra and wisdom says (State Forests and National Forests = okay -- State Parks, National Parks/Monuments = not okay) but reality isn't cooperating, or at least, we don't really know whether it is or is not.

:banghead:


I just don't want to see anyone get in trouble with the law, and I'd like to avoid such a thing myself.

[Avizpls]

For the record:

I'm not a lawyer. If you go into anywhere with a gun because some idiot on the internet (thats me) said you could, you are risking your own hide.

I'll be in a National Forest. Im taking the Kimber. Thus, my purpose of this thread is complete. Thanks for the tips, but I dont feel like getting into a discussion where laws have to be cited.

Thanks all!

[XDKingslayer]

Where will you be camping? Just curious as I'm from that area.

[NineseveN]

We are under the understanding that if you are not hunting, then you may carry the rifle for protection only. You may want to check with the PA Game Commission to make sure we aren’t missing any important aspect here. When you are on SFL you must abide by the PA Game Commission laws as far as firearms are concerned.


That is what I received this morning from the person from the DCNR. So back to the PA game Commission for info.


Sorry to hijack your thread Avizpls, but it's just not responsible to just let the subject go, someone could in theory take some of the info in this thread and unknowingly break the law becasue of it. If you're not willing or able to show where you found the information that makes it legal for you to carry for protection in state forests (as you stated) without a hunting permit and not under hunting regulations, then just ignore that part of this thread and we'll see if we can get some more info.

It's not fair or right to just leave that statement hanging out there.

[Lou629]

Check out this site www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USOffLimits.pdf for laws re: state parks/ forests, etc. It appears to have what you're looking for.

[NineseveN]

Hey Lou! Thanks for the link. It doesn't state anything about State Forests, but it's an awesome document and definitely a keeper!

:)

I'm gonna have to call the Game Commission's Law Enforcement office and make sure, I don't see anything other than what was in the links that Coat4gun posted (the open-ended prima facie evidence of hunting). If I have more time I could read ALL of the game laws...



http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/digestpdfs/2006/miscellaneous.pdf

State Parks and State Forests
Firearms and archery equipment may be uncased
only in designated hunting areas during the seasons state
recreation areas are open to hunting. In park areas not
open to hunting, or during nonhunting seasons, firearms
and archery equipment must be kept in the owner’s car,
trailer or camp. Hunting, trapping, pursuing, molesting or
intentionally disturbing wildlife in state parks is prohibited,
except that hunting and trapping by licensed hunters
and furtakers is permitted in designated areas in compliance
with Game Commission regulations. Trapping may
be permitted in areas not designated for hunting, but only
upon written approval, which is granted only when
effective wildlife administration of the area requires
trapping. Dog training is permitted from the day following
Labor Day through March 31 in designated hunting
areas. Woodchuck hunting is prohibited in state parks.
The Bureau of Forestry welcomes hunters and
trappers to over 2,000,000 acres of State Forests. Only
small areas around occupied buildings are posted.
Overnight camping is permitted only in areas designated
by the district forester. Required permits are available
from local forestry offices.

For further information concerning hunting on state
parks, contact the Bureau of State Parks, 1-888-PA-PARKS,
visit www.dcnr.state.pa.us, or write State Parks, 8th Floor,
P.O.Box 8551, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8551, or call your
nearest state park. For information and maps concerning
hunting and recreational activities on state forests, contact
the Bureau of Forestry, 6th Floor, P.O. Box 8552, Harrisburg,
PA 17105-8552. Phone 717-783-7941, or your nearest
forestry office.


Page 8 of the PA Hunting Regs Digest (http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/digestpdfs/2006/2006_digest.pdf)
Firearms - Handguns: A Sportsman’s Firearms permit or a License
to Carry a Firearm is required to carry a handgun concealed or
in a motor vehicle. Licenses to Carry a Firearm are issued by county
sheriffs or the Philadelphia Chief of Police. A License to Carry a Firearm
does not entitle the licensee to spotlight wildlife while in possession
of a firearm. County treasurers issue Sportsman’s Firearms Permits.
A person holding a Sportsman’s Firearms Permit may not carry a
loaded handgun in a vehicle.


Bah...need to call about rifles.