Most accurate out of the box bolt rifle?


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_N4Z_
May 27, 2006, 02:18 PM
What should/could/would be considered thee most accurate bolt rifle, out of the box, iron sights only (no scopes), on the market today?

Moderate range shooting (300-400 meter).

I was thinking Remington 700 BDL in 270 and up caliber range. May .308 if available.


What do all you people here think?

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Jmurman
May 27, 2006, 02:20 PM
I have a REM 700 BDL in .06 and it's very accurate...right out of the box.

Zak Smith
May 27, 2006, 02:28 PM
Accuracy has little to do with the sighting system, as long as a repeatable and precise sight picture can be achieved.

"Out of the box" implies it is a factory rifle, not a custom rifle.

With those two constraints, I would offer up the following factory options as in the class of "best accuracy from the box"--

* McMillan / Tubb 2000
* Accuracy International AW/AWP/AWM/AWSM (Iron sights available from factory).
* SAKO TRG-22/42 (Iron sights available from factory).
* Tikka 595 Target National Match Rifle

When you specify the "most accuracy", there is no qualification for price or what you specifically need.

There are a LOT of custom options out there too, built for specific target shooting sports.

-z

rockstar.esq
May 27, 2006, 02:47 PM
For the ranges that you've mentioned, I'd say that the quality of the iron sights will be a hugely significant factor. To that end most modern bolt actions are equipped with sights that work but aren't really all that great. Many old timers swore by reciever sights because they offered a longer sight radius as well as the "click" adjustability that allows for come ups. To answer your question I'd have to recommend a military rifle like the K-31 which is famous for it's worksmanship and quality sights. I'd also recommend a Garand, an M14, or an 03A3 springfield as any of these rifles will have both a potent cartridge and quality sights set on the reciever.

qajaq59
May 27, 2006, 02:59 PM
What should/could/would be considered thee most accurate bolt rifle, out of the box, iron sights only (no scopes), on the market today?

Moderate range shooting (300-400 meter).I'd have to agree on the k31. It will cost less then $150, you can get ammo for it that is NON-corrosive, or just reload for it. And it will shoot as accurately as most guys are capable of shooting it. I use mine with the iron sights at 200 yards and have a grand old time. You can mount a scope on it as well if you wish to later on, but I wouldn't on mine. It's a lot tougher to try and shoot well without a scope, but it can a lot more fun too.

_N4Z_
May 27, 2006, 03:26 PM
Funny that two of you mention the K31. I have looked hard at that as an option with so many people out there singing Swiss praises.

Only concern with it was ammunition availability. Not going to find GP11 in the local shop(s) or WallyWorld. I do not reload, but there are online suppliers.

I understand Wolf Gold has added 7.5x55 to the lineup too.

Old Dog
May 27, 2006, 03:30 PM
Savage 110 series, believe it or not, has compared extremely favorably in the out-of-the-box accuracy department against the normal contenders such as the Rem. 700.

jd46561
May 27, 2006, 03:32 PM
Hands down k31. I have 13 and they are, by far, the most accurate. Two 96/11,s I have , are almost a 100 yrs old. they will shoot 1.5 - 2in. groupings 100 yrds , iron sights. They live up to there reputation. Ammo is kind of expensive but readly avalible. Aim surplus has it at a good price.

combatpreacher
May 27, 2006, 05:25 PM
Narrowing it down to only the brand new - out of the box - rifles that i have owned...hands down it has to be the Steyr Mannlicher in 30/06
(Of course most rifles will get better with time if you take care of them properly)

JNewell
May 27, 2006, 06:00 PM
The most accurate rifle I've ever purchased out of the box is a Remington 700 LTR.

Edit to note that the LTR does not come with iron sights in the box, so we'll take it out of the pool of candidates.

nipprdog
May 27, 2006, 09:32 PM
[Hands down k31. I have 13 and they are, by far, the most accurate. Two 96/11,s I have , are almost a 100 yrs old. they will shoot 1.5 - 2in. groupings 100 yrds , iron sights.

no offense to a fellow hoosier, but you coudn't be more wrong.

most box stock Savages or Remingtons willl shoot sub MOA.

from my 10FP


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/tgt223.jpg

el44vaquero
May 27, 2006, 09:56 PM
Win. 70 .30-06

Meplat
May 27, 2006, 10:04 PM
Savage 110 series, believe it or not, has compared extremely favorably in the out-of-the-box accuracy department against the normal contenders such as the Rem. 700.

Oddly enouth, Old Dog (or ol' dawg as we would say around these parts :) )
I have two Savages from the 110 Series, and both were at least pleasant surprises...the first in .308 was an extremely pleasant surprise, which led me to purchase one in 7mm-08 for my daughter. While the .284 caliber isn't quite as blessed with the inherent accuracy of the .308, one can hardly quibble over that point. The .308 will spit out five shot 1/2 MOA groups all day long. The 7mm isn't far behind.

They really ARE amazing rifles for the dollar.

Zen21Tao
May 27, 2006, 10:09 PM
I have read some reviews of the $315 Stevens M200 by Savage that say it is as accurate out of the box as a Remington 700. When you combine the accuracy with the fact that the M200 is offered in all the major calibers it appears to be a pretty impressive weapon.

Zak Smith
May 27, 2006, 10:18 PM
So let me get this straight..

You guys are saying that the Garand, M14, 03A3, K-31, Savage 110, Steyr Mannlicher 30-06, Remington 700, Stevens M200, and a Winchester Model 70 are more accurate, from the box, with iron sights than a Tubb 2000?

Let's think about that for a minute or two...

Two rhetorical questions: How many High-Power "Match Rifle" and Palma shooters are using "box-stock" factory rifles from the list above, compared to the Tubb and custom guns? Why?

-z

jd46561
May 27, 2006, 10:50 PM
Well Nipprdog , Ill just agree to disagree . Im not a good shooter I have only been shooting for 1.5 years , but time after time on the different Swiss forums great and good shooters are doing the same thing with 50 -75 year old USED rifles, bought for under 150 bucks. So I stand buy what I said . If he wants to buy a new rifle and pay 4 -500 + for around the same thing, then so be it.:)

JohnBT
May 27, 2006, 10:51 PM
I think they're talking about mass produced guns that come in mass produced cardboard boxes, not the semi-custom and completely hand built jobs.

I still want a New Ultra Light Arms rifle, but that's a different thread. www.newultralight.com

John

Zak Smith
May 27, 2006, 11:01 PM
I don't know what kind of box the T2K comes in - my AI's came in cardboard boxes - but they are certainly factory production, not custom rifles.

http://www.davidtubb.com/t2k.html

The T2K is simply the finest centerfire target rifle available. It was engineered to deliver state-of-the-art competitiveness out of the box -- install sights and you're ready for the firing line or field. The goal was to develop an extremely accurate precision-built rifle that was completely adjustable to each individual shooter. The T2K achieves this goal through carefully chosen components and the highest quality CNC machining technology in the industry. The TUBB 2000 is not just an equivalent alternative to custom modified rifles -- it is a clearly superior choice. Out-of-the-box, this rifle has won four NRA High Power National Championships (including holding the record) and a number of NRA Long Range championship events (1000 yard events), including the 2004 NRA Long Range Championship with a perfect score.

atek3
May 28, 2006, 02:01 AM
I think they're talking about mass produced guns that come in mass produced cardboard boxes, not the semi-custom and completely hand built jobs.

sako's and tikka's are mass produced, and they'll shoot the pants off any box-stock winchester, savage, k31, etc.

atek3

Jspy
May 28, 2006, 09:00 AM
Zak,
Whats the price range on the rifles you listed above? I don't doubt that they are all super accurate rifles, but I believe most people think of average run of the mill rifles such as Remington, Winchester,Savage,etc. when first thinking of buying a rifle. I would like to own one of the AI's, etc. on your list just to see if I could see an improvement on my own groups, as I don't consider myself to be much of a marksman.

thebigc
May 28, 2006, 11:04 AM
how about a finnish m39 i only paied 230 shipped for mine and its damn acurate and reliable.

Gewehr98
May 28, 2006, 01:20 PM
But, as the thread starter asked, were those fired using iron sights?

MachIVshooter
May 28, 2006, 01:33 PM
IMO, the most accurate bone-stock bolt rifle is the Remington 40X, but it is not equipped with iron sights. I don't own one, but reviews seem to indicate they are almost universally half-minute capable with the right load.

bigcim
May 28, 2006, 02:02 PM
Does anybody know the moa on a rem 700 @100 yrds factoryspecs not personal experience:)

R.W.Dale
May 28, 2006, 02:25 PM
Does anybody know the moa on a rem 700 @100 yrds factoryspecs not personal experience

There is no MOA factory spec the individual gun has too much to do with how it shoots. But for sake of conversation lets say you had a rem 700 that you sent back to the factory for shooting 3" groups. They would sent it right back to you with a letter stating that accuracy was acceptable.

Zak Smith
May 28, 2006, 02:30 PM
Jspy,
Whats the price range on the rifles you listed above?
I thought the question was, "What's the most accurate rifle, out of the box, with iron sights?"
What should/could/would be considered thee most accurate bolt rifle, out of the box, iron sights only (no scopes), on the market today?
No reference to price at all.

To answer this question in a useful way, we need data:

1. quantified accuracy results with a variety of match-quality ammunition (a rifle that shoots 5 types of ammo 1/2 MOA could be considered more accurate than one that will only shoot one type to that accuracy)

2. accuracy results from a large set of groups fired, not ignoring the poor groups once in the experiment (it's easy to cherry-pick groups which do not represent the average performance of the rifle)

3. a representative sample of each rifle, ie test results from a few of them. (if you can grab 5 rifles off the rack and they all shoot the same loads to 1/2 MOA, this model has more consistent accuracy than a model where some shoot, and some don't)

4. expert opinion (e.g. in the form of, what factory rifles are used in formal competition)


Furthermore, if we want to throw price into the mix, we still need that raw accuracy information. Otherwise "accuracy per dollar" can't be evaluated because we don't know the former term.


Without any sort of focus or rigorous thinking about the subject, we end up with another "I like rifle X" thread.

You can probably coax 3/4 MOA out of most modern factory bolt-action rifles, but it might take a little work in bedding or reloading. This is more than enough for most applications. Match and varmint shooters often want better accuracy.

JohnBT
May 28, 2006, 10:22 PM
I suppose I just don't consider a rifle to be out of the box (mass produced, etc.) when it's got a hand-lapped Schneider barrel like the Tubb 2000.

http://www.zediker.com/tubb/images/tubbgun/spotter1.jpg

"Here's David's 600 yard spotter...

There's a story on this: David shot a practice 600 yard match at his ranch range and hit his THREE-INCH spotter 23 out of the 40 shots he fired. And, yes, the other 17 also went very, very near to it."

www.zediker.com/tubb/tubbgun.html

Open sights, too. :)
______________________________

I didn't know AI had a .50 BMG for $13,000. Ohhhhh, the temptation.

John

_N4Z_
May 28, 2006, 10:26 PM
.... 3" diameter round thingy at 600 yards with open sights. :scrutiny:


was there a 20' neon flashing arrow pointing at it and a sign the said "shoot here" ? ? ? :D

JohnBT
May 29, 2006, 11:49 AM
"was there a 20' neon flashing arrow pointing at it"

I'll answer a question with a question.

Q: How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

A: Practice, practice, practice.

www.davidtubb.com/about_david.html

"David Tubb is arguably the best, and winningest, competitive rifleman in history. He has won (to date) a record eleven NRA National High Power Rifle Championship titles at Camp Perry, Ohio. That's five more than next best. In addition, David is an NRA Silhouette Rifle legend, having won nearly 30 open, individual national championship titles in all four rifle categories. David has also won seven Sportsmen's Team Challenge championships along with six NRA Long Range Rifle (600-1000 yd.) national championships."

_N4Z_
May 29, 2006, 12:33 PM
practice, practice, practice doth not make for eyes that can see a 3" dia. thingy at 600 yards.

quite impressive! your champion must be blessed with superior peepers!

i wud need that really big arrow. ;)

bigcim
May 29, 2006, 03:36 PM
All I would need is for someone to hold it up and point at it like in the photo. any volunteers? :D

Zak Smith
May 29, 2006, 03:37 PM
Based on the type of targets High-Power match shooters use, it was probably at the center of a large bullseye, surrounded by a large "buff" region to provide high contrast (and contain the lower scoring rings). I think the black region of the target is usually 4-5 MOA in diameter, ie about 36" @ 600 yards. A three foot black dot on a light colored background at 600 yards is not hard to see. A consistent sight picture on a 3' dot can produce 1/2 MOA groups (ie, 3" @ 600).

Geno
May 29, 2006, 04:02 PM
Last I heard, the world record at 500 yards was held by T/C's "Contender" pistol. Now, I know this thread is about rifles, but my point is that both the Contender pistol and the Contender carbine have the same accuracy guarantee: 1" or less at 100 yards. My T/C's, Contenders and Encores, have all bested that accuracy and then some.

My favorite iron-sighted firearm is my SA M1A "Loaded". I used to fire my M1a "Loaded" at an considerable distances, at non-paper targets until I became bored to death. It held that degree of accuracy round after round, cold barrel or hot barrel made no difference.

But, whatever rifle one likes, we seem to be blessed in America with some dandy firearms.

Edited to add: The T/C Contender pistol's 500 yard group measured 1" by 3.5" The woman at T/C told me it was fired with iron sights.

Doc2005

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