[Min]

I ask this because I heard on this board that the Walther P99 is the most accurate out-of-the-box.

I'm not talking about your $2000 Sig P210's. Just regular service pistols.

Beretta 92FS

Walther P99 9mm

CZ 75/85

Springfield Armory XD9

Sig Sauer P226

HK USP 9mm

Glock 17

etc.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Of those you've listed, I've found the SIG-Sauer P226 and CZ75 to both be very accurate.

Best.

[chevrofreak]

I second what Mr. Camp said

[HadEmAll]

My CZ75BD is a bit more accurate than my 92FS Compact or former sigpro. In fact, it is extremely accurate. I have a P99, but it's in .40, so can't compare.

[Handy]

Depends, does the gun have to still be in production?

I have three that shoot similarly to the Sig 210. The HK P9S, HK P7 and the Steyr GB. All were designed as combat guns and saw use as such. All will shoot 1" groups, which is less than half the group size of any you mention. They all have fixed barrels, are reliable and tough.


Of the usual stuff on the shelves, I'd also say CZ and Sig, but add USP. All of these are pretty close. None are going to be in the class of the guns I've mentioned.

[dude]

the P7 with its fixed-barrel

[PCRCCW]

Duh! Can I add my Les Baer????????????????????? :D

Sorry, couldnt resist.....by far and ....ya whatever.

CZ 75 B in sticking to the list...of real service guns....
Shoot well

[SapperLeader]

Ive only shot a few of the guns on the list, and only own the xd9, but I love it so much, and am so impressed with its accuracy and reliability im picking up the subcompact this weekend to go along with my service model. Hope that helps.

[Marko Kloos]

I've owned good examples of all, but the most accurate have been the CZ-75 and the SIG P226.

[Sean Smith]

A $1,200 P7M8 (the going rate) probably doesn't cut it as a "regular service pistol," especially when you consider how prone to fouling its gas system is. And that only holds 8 shots... P7M13s cost as much as a Sig P210...

Of those choices, the SigSauer P226 or HK USP9 most likely. My CZ was surprisingly accurate too.

[dude]

prone to fouling??


I've been shooting them for 18 years without any such trouble! The were designed as service pistols btw (the 'P' in P7 is for police) and if 8+1 is not enough what good will another 6 or 8 do you? Yes, they are expensive but you get what you pay for...........it's a spending money -vs- money well spent thing. Try one for a while.

[Ala Dan]

SIG-Sauer P226 in 9 m/m

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Jim Watson]

The single most accurate - slow fire, well lighted bullseye target - "modern" service pistol that I have shot was a Beretta 92. But I would not pick it for actual duty, self defense, or IDPA/IPSC competition; it's too big in the butt for my hand size. I have read that they are kind of unpredictable on accuracy due to variation in fit of the separate locking block, but this one was excellent.

Depends on your application. Do you need or want a highly accurate pistol, regardless of other factors like ergonomics, trigger pull, sights, concealability, etc.?

My CZ 75 "pre B" is not as accurate as folks are reporting for theirs, but I can get good hits on IDPA targets faster than any other SSP division gun I have tried. My P220 is not bad and is so reliable I pick it for actual protection. For those uses M92, P7, P9, USP, G17, P99 (and P210) are way down my list. Your preference might be different.

[Handy]

Yeah, all those agencies that use P7s have just kept complaining for the last 20 years about the lack of reliability and fouled gas systems.:uhoh:

Sure.


Of the conventional list, I forgot the excellent Walther P88.



Also, could we have an "official" ruling on what the cost cut off is for a "service pistol". Does a $750 Sig make it? How about a $900 Walther? Why don't we call anything pricer than a CZ or Ruger "not a service pistol"?


If you want to be cheap, the Steyr GB went for $550 MSRP in 1988. The less accurate Sig had an MSRP of $700 at that time.

[Min]

When I say service pistol I'm not talking about price. I meant whatever is used throughout the world by military and police forces TODAY, that can be bought in the US readily. Sig P210's used to be service pistols, but they have since moved to premium "status" guns.

So, a $700 HK or Sig would still qualify as a service pistol.

[Handy]

Then your answer is a $1200 P7. It's available and in use, and quite a bit more accurate than anything else listed.

[Min]

I can buy four CZ 75's for one P7. :what:

[Handy]

But even if you stack the four CZ's on top of each other, they won't fire a smaller group than the P7.

That was the question, right?

[Min]

:D

I was going off on a tangent. Yes, my question was on accuracy alone.

[Mikul]

While I love my CZ-75, my USP will put bullets exactly where I want them. You can tell by looking at the fit and finish of the INTERIOR of the USP how much care went into makeing those guns.

[Sean Smith]

Try one for a while.

Been there, done that, not real impressed. Nice gun and all, but overrated... especially for the $1,200 I've seen them going for.

Try shooting lead through a P7 and see what happens. Then imagine what actual DIRT would do! :D

[firestar]

I love 9mms and have shot a bunch of them. Of the ones I have shot, some of the most accurate were, in no particular order:
Beretta 92fs
FM Browning Hi Power Detective
Star Firestar (really sursprised me!)
Walther P-1

Some of the less accurate ones:
S&W 59
S&W 5906
Ruger P89
Ruger P95
Kahr E-9
Tec-9 :D

I have not shot a 9mm that was what I consider really accurate. A good revolver will outshoot just about any 9mm at any price. I have a S&W 19 .357 that cost me $285 OTD and it is just as accurate as some of the high dollar 1911s .45s I have had and is way more accurate than any 9mm I have ever shot or seen shot. I have heard there are accurate 9mms out there, but I have yet to see one. If you can get 2-3" groups at 75' offhand with a 9mm auto, you should be very happy, most won't shoot that good IMHO.

[dude]

you will note that most all P7-bashers have no idea what they are talking about and their knowledge of the weapon is limited to being able to pick one out of a police suspect line-up!


for example: "Yeah, all those agencies that use P7s have just kept complaining for the last 20 years about the lack of reliability and fouled gas systems"

For this I would like to see a shred of proof........(!) Lack of reliability!! HA!
If you find your P7 to be not reliable and everything is in good shape, go buy a loto ticket 'cause you are already one-in-a-million!
I admit that while such a situation is possible, it would be purely operator error and knowing how to maintain such a fine weapon is easily mastered making any realiability issues quickly a 'non issue'

FWIW- you can get a nice P7M8 for around $800-850
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=003510;p=1#000002

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=003508

[dude]

"Try shooting lead through a P7 and see what happens. Then imagine what actual DIRT would do! "


HA!! 2X........nice try

One would not 'try' shooting lead through a P7 because is is a big no-no and HK says so in the paperwork that comes with the pistol (going back to my point of operator error again here) If you have 'been there and done that' already you were contrary to what the manufacture recommended; as lead bits will shear-off and clog the gas port. The P7 will still fire though!!........ but there will be no gas-dampening.

If you are a lead 9mm bullet fan than the P7 is NOT for you!! btw- dude has yet to meet one.



HA!!! 3X

Dirt OTOH is no problem as the wise Germans provided the P7 with a fluted chamber just for this potential situation. Just as in their fine line of G3/91/91 Battle Rifles the fluted chamber allows the weapon to chamber dirty/muddy ammo.

[Handy]

Dude,

I hope you realize that my quote was sarcasm.



Sean,
Why would you fire lead bullets in any gas operated gun? You fire lead in an AK47 and the gas system will bind up, too.

So that means an AK won't fire dirty, right?



Raising the BS flag. The P7 is well known to be very reliable. It even did well in the US XM9 tests until they got to the corrosive enviro tests (salt+bluing=bad). NJ kept their P7s about 5 to 10 years longer than any department keeps duty weapons. People like Sean and BHP9 can claim all the unreliability they want, but most owners (including Ayoob) have had exactly the opposite experience. I don't own a more reliable gun.

And no, I don't shoot lead.

[Sean Smith]

I guess the smiley face ( :D ) wasn't a big enough hint that I was JERKING YOUR CHAINS!!!

HK fanboys are SO fanatical... :neener:

Hey, I hear that the P7s get so hot when you shoot them that they will set your knuckle hairs on fire... :eek:

Back on planet earth... the P7 series are neat guns, but way expensive compared to mainstream service pistols. I have, in fact, shot them, and aside from being heavy for their size (unobtanium steel is dense!) thought they were pretty cool. If you are talking U.S. law enforcement, they are less a mainstream "service pistol" than 10mm is a mainstream "service caliber," which is saying alot. As a military weapon, the P210 was more prevalent than the P7, which again is saying alot for how esoteric the P7 really is.

Estoteric isn't bad, but comparing $1,200 uber-pistolen to $300-600 service pistols is kind of unfair.

[Handy]

Hey, it was the same old saw, repeated so often that some people believe it. It bothers me when people write off good gear based on posts like that, humorous intent or not.


Unfortunately, :D often just means "I am a complete bastard" rather than "I am taking this subject lightly and so should you".

So, I will leave you with this note:

:cool:


Whatever the hell that means.

[10-Ring]

For me, HK makes some fine 9mm's! From your list, I'd vote for the USP 9. From what's been suggested, the P7M8 would win out.

[George Hill]

From the initial list, the Beretta is the most accurate.

[mephisto]

I think that it all goes with who is pulling the trigger. I’m a good shot but I can’t really tell a great gun from a really good gun. My father, who shot competition handguns for years, can shot almost any gun accurately and has always said that it is the shooter not the gun. He and I both know a piece of crap, poor design or over shot, hand gun from a nice one. There are competition or custom handguns that are awesome guns that are balanced and set up for competition but a majority of people will never have one, lack of money or they just don’t see fit to buy one. When it comes to your personal gun it should always be the gun that you like and that fits you the best. I love CZ’s and Ruger’s I just bought a Steyr m-9 and I love it. If there was anything that I would say to anyone go to a gun range and test multiple guns. I have found out that most folks you find at gun ranges will be more than happy to let you shoot some rounds down range with their guns. My 2 cents.

[Min]

Wow. Nobody said the Walther P99, and that's what started it in the first place.

[Pilot]

I am curious why you left out the Browning Hi Power in your list as it is the classic, hi-cap 9MM service pistol and very accurate. For accuracy, my choices in this class in no particular order would be:

BHP
P7M8
CZ-75
P-08 Luger

[Min]

I didn't leave out the BHP on purpose. I couldn't think of any more at the time. Of course, the BHP is worthy of consideration. I was hoping the "etc" would cover whichever ones I left out.

[incursion]

P7s can be found for under $1000. I bought a refurb with 200 rounds through it for $600. After hard chroming, shipping fees, FFL transfer fees, another magazine, and night sights, my total cost ran right at $1000.

[Handy]

My lightly used original was $700. So was my brother's PSP.

[emc]

My Springfield XD9 will give me sub 2 inch five shot groups from a rest at 27 yards using CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ. :D Better than the Kahr K9 or the Walther P38 I've had. Great reliability, too, along with super ergonomics and very quick take down.

FWIW,

emc

[Gerald McDonald]

I dont think as a rule you can say any one style or brand of auto is the most accurate. In my limited experience, they are as unique as people. I have two BHP's, one is a tack driver while the other is about on par with a Ruger P95 or Glock 17, which I have found to be similar in accuracy. I have a Kimber classic that is as accurate as my Ruger MK I with bull barrel which is not quite as accurate as a Ruger Security Six which has defied the odds by having some cylinder play and a 2 3/4" barrel but will put them in one hole hand held (not by me) at 7 yards.
Gerald

[surfinUSA]

My Beretta 92 was unbelievably accurate. I should have put target sights on it. Instead I was a dumb *** and sold it for something else. This gun was more accurate than any other 9mm I have shot including the P7s tested by my department.

There are alot of great guns out there from different manufacturers, but in a full size service pistol I believe that the Beretta is the best and certainly the most accurate and reliable that I have used.

[coop57]

My CZ75 is only slightly less acurate (from a Ransom rest) than my SIG 210 and will eat any type of ammo. I have shot P7s and would put up the CZ75 against it for acurracy.

[JohnKSa]

I've had 3 Beretta 92 pistols and all would shoot about 1.5" at 25 yards, and around 0.75" at 15 yards offhand using factory ammo.

I suspect that from a rest and with tailored loads, all of them were 1" guns.

With the exception of a trigger job on one of the guns, all three were factory Beretta guns--no fitted barrels, no match components--pure stock.

IMO, the biggest hindrance to accuracy on these guns is the trigger overtravel. The inherent accuracy is there, but sometimes it's hard to get it to show because of the overtravel.

I've owned a USP and a Glock and they don't compare in the accuracy department, although they are fine weapons with more than sufficient accuracy for a service pistol. I've also owned an EAA Witness (CZ-75 clone) that was very accurate. I didn't shoot it enough to really wring it out, but it may have rivaled the Berettas--I have the feeling it was pretty close if not equal...

Dunno about the rest of the list.

[Blueduck]

.75" off hand at 15 yards, regardless of pistol your my hero ;)

I recall on Brian Enos competition bulletin board world class competitor Rob Leatham checking in on an accuracy thread and saying something to the effect of: 3" at 25 yards is fine, I can't gurantee I can hit a 3" target at 15 yards on demand in competition. Food for thought...

As to pistols all I can say is my Glock 19 and 17 were both more accurate than any of my S/W or Taurus autos. Most accurate "service type" auto I've fired has been a 70's vintage browning high power a friend brought to the range.

You would think the Army test of the 226 and 92FS would have included the average group sizes of both guns, anybody got a link???:confused:

[Handy]

Anybody else's gun come with a factory test target? These are usually hand fired at 25 meters.

My P7s is an inch.
Brother's P5 is 4".

Blah.

[care-less]

Dude made the right choice. P7 is a "regular" service pistol.:)

[Harold Mayo]

Gee, Sean, if you were shooting lead through your P7, I guess you WOULD be having problems with the gas system...;)

I vote for the P7M8 or M13 as the most accurate AND reliable. I've seen them run with broken parts that would put other guns down as well as shoot overloaded ammo that wouldn't be safe in other pistols (still shouldn't shoot it in a P7, though) and they WILL run when incredibly dirty. I HAVE seen them lock up when the piston got too dirty but that's an operator error and not the fault of the pistol. When you shoot a few thousand rounds of filthy ammo through it and never clean it because you want to brag about how reliable your handgun is, then you WILL screw yourself (happened to one of my best friends). People need to remember that it's only a tool and you have to maintain your tools. They don't maintain themselves.

With all that said, though, I don't carry a P7 or even own one right now. I place my trust in a BHP in 9mm or in a full-sized 1911 in .45 ACP.

[JohnKSa]

Blueduck,

That's slowfire, giving myself time to rest between shots. And, I should point out, it's not like every group I shoot is that good.

Usually in a given trip to the range, I've got one really decent group in me if I have a good gun & ammo, take my time and really concentrate. The rest aren't nearly so impressive--on a really good day, I might shoot a couple of keepers. The rest of the time I spend working on target acquisition and speeding up my shooting. A lot more fun, a lot less concentration required, and probably a lot more useful in the real world.

I also sometimes have to switch around on the lanes until I get lighting I like...

The secret to shooting tiny groups is in pulling the trigger ONLY when everything is perfect. ;)

[BHP9]

1. The ultimate 9mm Sig-Neuhausen P210. Often can be found used for around $1,200. Trigger, workmanship, quality of materiels used in construction and accuracy unmatched even today.

2. Second runner up the "T" Series High Power of the 1960's. Outstanding workmanship, trigger pull, and accuracy. All forged Parts. The ultimate High Power. Will need its sights updated.

2A. Browning long slide GP Competition. Excellent trigger pull, accuracy and long sighting radius and good adjustable sights were standard.

3. German Luger. Outstanding accuracy. A tie to the "T" Series High Power in workmanship and accuracy if trigger is reworked. Needs sights updated.

4. C96 Mauser 9mm in excellent condition. Very expensive but very accurate, outstanding accuracy, workmanship and trigger pull. Can be used as a rifle carbine with original shoulder stock attached. Do not pass up same in .30 Mauser. Extemely high velocity, high penetration and very deadly at long range with or without shoulder stock at 100 yards.

Modern 9mm's.

1. Sig p226 , excellent trigger pull and good accuracy but a fragile weapon due to the aluminum frame, and open backstrap covered only by the grips and sheet metal stampings used in its construction.

2. Cz75 , very accurate but made of castings and the newer models have a passive firing pin safety that sometimes breaks its sheet metal roll pin. Trigger pulls on standard grade guns are generally gritty. Very long trigger reach in double action mode.

3. Walther P99, Outstandingly accurate, very good trigger pull and has a good reliability record without the many recalls of other plastic pistols.

Recomendations:

Sell off several of your current pistols and buy a Sig-Nuehausen P210. You will never miss the other pistols after they are gone.

Second option. Buy a 1960's "T" series High Power. Have a set of adjustable Bo-Mar sights installed and you will never need or want or be satisfied with any other 9mm (except maybe the P210).

3rd Option. Browning GP competition High Power.

4th, option for those on a budget. Buy the Walther P99 pistol. Its much more rugged than the P226 and has a much better trigger pull than the standard grade CZ and fits the average hand much better than the CZ. It has interchangeable back straps to fit the size of your hand and interchangable front sights and an adjustable rear sight (for windage). Has a cocking indicator and loaded chamber indicator. Can shoot the first shot in double action mode, or single action mode or a third option of a 1 lb double action mode.

5th. option. A quality used High Power preferably made before 1993. The last year of the forged frame High Powers. Many came with usable sights both fixed and adjustable.

A note of interest:

Do not lock yourself into the mindset that you must buy a new weapon. Many deals exist on quality used weapons at gun shows and on the internet. And often you can find them for less than buying new. It takes a little patients and time but can be the better route to go in the long run because older quality weapons are also an excellent investment that are skyrocketing in value far faster than todays plastic and sheet metal weapons.

[ColtPony380]

My Sig P229 9mm!!

[firestar]

I've had 3 Beretta 92 pistols and all would shoot about 1.5" at 25 yards, and around 0.75" at 15 yards offhand using factory ammo.

That is really hard to beleive, I'm not saying I don't beleive you but from a factory gun with only a trigger job, I think that is exceptional accuracy. I think it is a rare Beretta that would do this well and you have 3 that will do this? I wish I could shoot that well or get guns that were that accurate.

I really am not mocking you because I know it is possible. There is a guy at my league that has a Para P14 and he consistantly does 1 1/2 to 2" groups at 25 yards and all it has is a trigger job. He is my hero right now.

[kalibear45]

Glock 17 = Pretty darn accurate out of the box

[Shake]

Sean,

Just an observation, no flame intended. . .but your intial post in this thread included no " :D " . Do we take that to mean your statement:

A $1,200 P7M8 (the going rate) probably doesn't cut it as a "regular service pistol," especially when you consider how prone to fouling its gas system is.

was made in all seriousness?

Shake

[BHP9]

Forgot to mention a real sleeper of the Gun World.

ONe of the best deals is the Star Model 28 or Model 30.

These weapons were amazingly accurate often shooting right up there with the most accurate 9mm's known.

My own Model 30 shoots groups approaching that of my Sig P210 and equaling that of my High Powers.

The Star had all quality forged parts and was one of the most rugged 9mm's ever built.

The Star had an outstanding trigger pull both single and double action.

Service life was outstanding with many shooting as many as 100,000 rounds with no parts breakage. They were used in my area as rental guns at shooting ranges because they never seemed to break.

The Star had windage adjustable sights and a detachable fire control system.

Many of its design features were borrowed form the Sig-Neuhausen such as the kidney shaped barrel lug, the slide tucked inside the frame and the detachable fire control system.

It came with non-slip rubber grips.

Used prices are often very reasonable.

I lament its passage because of the demise of the state owned company, perhaps one of the very best 9mm's ever made.


The Last 3 that I bought ran $275, $325, and $350. Proving once again new guns are often much more expensive and certainly no better.

[Gordy Wesen]

What he said.


__________

"I'd recommend taking massive doses of vitamin B. If that doesn,t work, I'd see a doctor."

[JohnKSa]

That is really hard to beleive, I'm not saying I don't beleive you but from a factory gun with only a trigger job, I think that is exceptional accuracy. I think it is a rare Beretta that would do this well and you have 3 that will do this? I wish I could shoot that well or get guns that were that accurate.

I really am not mocking you because I know it is possible. There is a guy at my league that has a Para P14 and he consistantly does 1 1/2 to 2" groups at 25 yards and all it has is a trigger job. He is my hero right now.
Well, a few things:

1. I think it is exceptional--that's why I posted it. I've not found any other service grade autos that are that accurate out of the box. I'm not saying they're not out there, I just haven't bought one.

2. Only my current Beretta has a trigger job. The others were pretty much completely stock although I probably did a little light polishing here and there.

3. I keep my best targets--cut out the groups, date them, mark the ammo, gun, distance, number of rounds and put them in a file. I went and got them out and looked through them before posting. As I said, not every group was that good, nor do I keep any BAD groups in my files. Still, I think the numbers I listed are representative of the gun's capabilities (and of mine on a good day.)

4. FWIW, all of the Berettas were stainless steel. I think that the stainless pistols are a little tighter than the Bruniton finish Berettas. Part of that is that some of the "stainless" parts are plated, not truly stainless. That might make them just a tiny bit oversize which tightens things up. Part of it may be that they have to be finished a little slicker since there's no Bruniton to cover minor imperfections. I don't know, but it seems that the stainless Berettas shoot better.

5. I spent a lot of time shooting lots of different kinds of ammo through those pistols. Some (even relatively expensive ammo) made the guns (and me) look pretty bad. Some, (even relatively cheap stuff) grouped very well. Just grabbing a box of gun fodder Brand X and heading to the range isn't going to reveal the potential of the gun or the shooter.

The rest is
Stance
Grip
Sight alignment
Sight picture
Breath control
Trigger control
Follow through

Like I said, only pull the trigger when everything is perfect! ;)

[Serpico]

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000364/MVC007S.JPG


Hasn't "fouled" me yet......

[Ian11]

The Sig Sauer P226 and H&K P7/M8 are the first ones that come to my mind. They are the most accurate pistols I've ever shot (save my P220ST in .45 and a P226 in .357 SIG). A Springfield Armory "Loaded" 1911 in 9mm was very accurate too but for me the .45 ACP is the only proper load for that design ;) And the P226 is a very durable pistol. They are not fragile guns as some people would like to lead us to believe. The arguments may sound logical but they are not based on fact or any conclusive evidence. The continuing popularity of the SIG P226 with the Navy SEALs and British SAS flies in the face of these kinds of conjecture.

The P226 and P7 designs may not be for everyone but they do what they were designed to do (and with proper care deserving of any fine equipment) and they do it VERY VERY WELL. :D

Other 9mm I either own, used to own, or shot extensively:

BHP MK III
Beretta 92 FS and Cougar
H&K USP and USP/C
Glock 19
SIG P228 and P229 9mm
S&W 5906

[PCRCCW]

All of the Hoopla aside..Ill give my vote to the CZ75 (All Ive had have had good otb triggers) and the Sig.....

Shoot well

[NEtracker]

For defensive accuracy, I find my P99 9mm to be fine.
For distance & bullseye work, I like my BHP.
(of course, it has a lot to do with each shooter's ability)

[creekerdoug]

I've found the Glock 34 to be much better than the Glock 17. It has a little longer sight radius and a much better trigger.

I haven't shot any HK pistols but I really like the G-34. I have two trick P-35 Hi Powers and they aren't as accurate as an out of the box G-34.

CD

[goon]

Probably either the SIG or the CZ, but I think that it would come down to individual guns with most of them.
As a group, I would say SIG.

[Stealthfixr]

and when you factor in the price, it becomes a no brainer ...

Got just under 1800 rounds out of mine since last Christmas, and not a single--not one--malfunction. In fact, it out-shoots (accuracy) everything I pit it up against. What else is important??!

[Quintin Likely]

I'll be glad to take any of those fouling, un reliable P7s off the hands of the unlucky owner(s)...

heh :)

[Penforhire]

Funny how nobody here said they took so-and-so guns and fired them all mounted to a bench vise to compare accuracy. Too much anecdotal evidence.

For instance, although I own a P99, therefore am a biased fan, I don't consider it any more accurate than the Glocks, Taurus, and S&W's I've tried at the range. I think the P99 barrel's too short for it to be THE most accurate.

[Handy]

I believe I posted about bench groups. So did John.


I'm completely unsurprised that no one else has. It's much harder to make blanket claims if you have data.

[stretcharmstrong]

"Funny how nobody here said they took so-and-so guns and fired them all mounted to a bench vise to compare accuracy. Too much anecdotal evidence...."

Assume all the guns were bench fired from a vise. Unless you had several examples of each gun tested from different manufacturing periods, the results would only pertain to those individual examples tested. This still does not give valid enough result evidence to determine generally which combat gun make/model is the most accurate. You only found out which gun is the most accurate in your safe.

I think threads like this though not very scientific are still very informative. I bet many of you are contimplating about getting one of those Star's cheap at a gun show. I know I am now but the thought never crossed my mind before reading this thread.

[Island Beretta]

I have always liked the Walther P99 and had intended to buy it for a concealed carry piece. I remember Gun Tests doing an article on it and it was posting sub 2" groups at 25 yds. I have attached the article. I even bought the first 2 Bond movies when he switched to the P99. When I finally got to hold one it did not fit my hands and so I passed! I was extremely disappointed.

I instead bought a Beretta compact L and this is one very accurate gun. I put a LPA adjustable sight on it with a narrower sight window. My sight radius is now 6.6" (which is even more than its big brother) with a 4.3 " barrel. The gun has registered a best of 2.2" at 25 yds, and at 15 yds to which it is zeroed, I have gotten sub 2" (1.7" best) groups. The gun's sear and hammer have been polished and reduced power mainspring put in. I have attached also a rubber stop at the back of the trigger to reduce overtravel. I fully believe the gun is capable of sub 2" groups at 25 yds, and one day if my eyes hold up I will go for it.

Nevertheless, the most accurate out of the box service pistol I have ever shot in decreasing order of accuracy:

Beretta 92fs full size
BHP Mark III police issue
CZ 75 B Classic (SA; the DA was horrible)
Baby Eagle medium size
Sig P228 (Strangely enough I have never shot a P226-will rectify this grave omission soon)

I must say this: The most accurate service grade .40 S&W I have ever shot has been the Sig P229. I have shot about 4 now just to make sure that the first was not a fluke. So impressed am I that if (when? :)) I go .40S&W the Sig is an instant pick!!!!

Have to hunt in my library for P99 article, will send shortly.

[Island Beretta]

See attached as per previous thread.

[45R]

In my hands the Walther P99, CZ75B and the Sig P226 are pretty accurate shooters.

[jolly roger]

Mine has always been the Sig 226. However, I shot a friends CZ85 that was truly a tack driver. Amazing guns...at any price.

[BHP9]

Then your answer is a $1200 P7. It's available and in use, and quite a bit more accurate than anything else listed.

I think there is a differcence between inherint accuarcy and practical accuracy.

I do not shoot the P7 well at all. Its mushing trigger let off really takes some getting used to and trying to hold in the heavy squeeze cocker makes one shoot before one is ready. If you do not shoot quickly the fatique sets in and you foul up the shot.

I also shoot a lot of cast bullet loads way cheaper than purchasing any type of factory or hand load with jacketed bullets. For me personally I would go broke shooting the P7 because of the expense of the ammo. The P7 should not be fired with cast bullets because if the gas system would get plugged up with a sliver of lead you could blow yourself up. Practically speaking the p7 is just to expensive for me to shoot given the ammount of shooting that I do.

I found out the hard way that you must also use the correct buring rate of powder when handloading for this weapon. Use the wrong burning rate of powder and you get jams or worse yet the gun starts to beat itself to death from very violent recoil caused by premature opening of the slide and considering the fact that the gun (although very expensive) is largely made of sheet metal stampings it is not a good idea to overtax this delicately made weapon.

I think too the squeeze cocking mechanism is more of liablity than a safety feature. When flexing the human hand to squeeze cock this weapon this will automatically flex the trigger finger and I have acutually seen more than one person fire off this weapon when he did not mean to do so. Police officers under stress have even fired off this weapon when drawing the weapon under stress out of the holster. Way back when this weapon first came out I thought that it might be "the answer" to the first shot problem of both double and single action automatics but when I actually used this gun and found out how dangerous it was to the user I became disenchanted with it very fast. The designers never took into consideration the Human factor both in regards to muscle reflex and pshological make up of a person under stress. Its exactly the same reason the Glock has caused so many accidental deaths. Trying to teach anyone, even professionals to keep their fingers off the trigger under stress is like trying to teach a teenager not to have sex before marriage. It just doesn't work folks no matter how much brainwashing you impliment.

Just this month I read about yet another Glock lawsuit that resulted in another innocent person being shot dead by the police because under stress they could not keep their finger off of the trigger. The P7 suffers from the same problem the Glock does and it may even be worse because of the fatigue factor that sets in when you must constantly keep the heavy squeeze cocker depressed. And once again under stress people will keep it cocked and their finger right on the trigger. Human nature has not changed in thousands of years and it will not change much anytime soon no matter how much training you get.

[Handy]

BHP9,

Everybody knows your stance on the unreloadable P7.

But really, saying that a SA pistol with an enormous, self actuating safety lever is a safety liability is ludicrous. How is that any fundementally different than a BHP9 or 1911, etc?

Don't bother answering, it isn't.



In terms of the "practical accuracy" viewpoint, plenty of people can shoot a P7 VERY well, just as many can shoot ______ pistol very well. Since a P7 has not impediments to practical accuracy (good trigger and sights), AND is the most mechanically accurate auto that qualifies in this thread, how is it NOT the most accurate combat 9?

[tex_n_cal]

So one shooter show up the other day at the range, his very first trip, ever. He's driving a new BMW Z8 roadster, and his very first gun is a P7M8. Sorry guys, you can't convince me they qualify as "service pistols":neener:

That said, while I haven't shot one myself, I suspect the Luger Navy (6" barrel) or artillery (8" barrel?) are going to outshoot anything else, just based on sight radius alone. They definitely were originally service pistols, even if they've been obsolete for 60 years.

[Handy]

Tex,

How did the NJ State Trooper of the German police man afford a Z8?


How much do you think a Luger would cost to produce right now?

[BHP9]

In terms of the "practical accuracy" viewpoint, plenty of people can shoot a P7 VERY well, just as many can shoot ______ pistol very well. Since a P7 has not impediments to practical accuracy (good trigger and sights), AND is the most mechanically accurate auto that qualifies in this thread, how is it NOT the most accurate combat 9?

I personally have a hell of a time with this pistol. Off of sandbags when shooting very carefully and deliberately, fighting the mushy trigger and the heavy squeeze cocker I can get some fairly good groups out of this gun but putting it in the human hand and firing it offhand is entirely a different story.

Anyone can adapt to a gun on the range if you shoot it enough but when you are used to shooting guns with great trigger pulls that break like glass and are not fatiguing to shoot because of the constant fight you have with the squeeze cocking mechanism of this gun , to me personally it just isn't worth the bother.

And as I have said I would never carry this gun as a defensive weapon, the last thing I want to do is shoot myself or worse yet someone else that I suddenly realize is not the enemy which happens far more often than many people will admit. Investigating noises in the middle of the night is a very good example of how sometimes innocent people get shot. Sure they may make a dumb mistake by spooking the person with the gun but by God it happens a lot more than people are willing to admit. Thats why the hard pull of the double action only gun or the double action , single action or even the single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one hell of a lot safer weapon than the Squeeze cocker or weapons like the Glock.

If you like this gun as a recreational weapon fine. Its expensive and a prestige gun but be warned about its faults. It certainly isn't the gun for everyone, especially the person who is not a dedicated shooter that spends many hours at the range in practice with this weapon.

[SapperLeader]

regarding safety concerns, but I believe the problem lies in training not the hardware. Ive been a soldier for over 5 years and involved with recreational shooting for a lot longer than that(17years?18 years?). The key to not shooting that weapon is your trigger finger. It doesnt matter what kind of trigger the gun has, or what safety features are built in, but as long as the finger is not on the trigger, there will never be a problem. I personalyl am not a fan of HK weapons but it is due to being poor and not being able to afford one, not due to the design. As far as accidentially shooting someone because you didnt recognize them, thats why I investigate any bumps in the night carrying a very bright white light so I will ensure that what is making noise in the kitchen is a burgular rather than a family member making a snack. You can say all you want about not being able to teach professionals about keeping thier finger off the trigger, but to me that is what differentiates the professional from the untrained in the real world situation. How much does the individual follow thier training and other basic muscles skills they have developed. So to finish, I can understand your not liking a certain weapon due to it not fitting your style and preference(ie mushy trigger), but not your bashing it due to the poor training of real world users using it. Just to let you know, Im not a glock owner, but I am owner of a springfield xd9 and xd9 compact, and have never even come remotly close to having the gun go off when I wasnt ready for it to, wether that be on a calm range, or investigating a hostile situation.

[Handy]

This:
And as I have said I would never carry this gun as a defensive weapon, the last thing I want to do is shoot myself or worse yet someone else that I suddenly realize is not the enemy which happens far more often than many people will admit. Investigating noises in the middle of the night is a very good example of how sometimes innocent people get shot. Sure they may make a dumb mistake by spooking the person with the gun but by God it happens a lot more than people are willing to admit. Thats why the hard pull of the double action only gun or the double action , single action or even the single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one hell of a lot safer weapon than the Squeeze cocker or weapons like the Glock.

is complete drivel. If you hold in the cocker, release the safety or cock the hammer, the gun is cocked. Doesn't matter how it got there. You're not making any sense at all. Why should it matter if you have a cocked Sig, 1911 or P7 in your hand?

[Penforhire]

Island Beretta, thanks for the link. I like real data, even if it does only represent instances of a model.

One big reason I bought the P99 was the "anti-stress" double-action trigger pull. I'm no professional and if I end up holding the weapon on someone I don't want an accidental shot. I found the long pull acceptable (for accuracy for me).

[Shake]

BHP9,

Not to come across as a jerk, but I'm glad I don't live with you.

And as I have said I would never carry this gun as a defensive weapon, the last thing I want to do is shoot myself or worse yet someone else that I suddenly realize is not the enemy which happens far more often than many people will admit. Investigating noises in the middle of the night is a very good example of how sometimes innocent people get shot. Sure they may make a dumb mistake by spooking the person with the gun but by God it happens a lot more than people are willing to admit. Thats why the hard pull of the double action only gun or the double action , single action or even the single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one hell of a lot safer weapon than the Squeeze cocker or weapons like the Glock.

If this is seriously an issue for you, I believe you may be better off not keeping a firearm for self defense.

1. Should you "suddenly" determine that someone is not a threat, what is the big deal as you should not have been covering them with your weapon in the first place? Low ready is the rule here, especially in your own home where you are unaware who the person is.

2. If you are relying on, or depending on a long double action trigger pull to keep you from shooting someone you shouldn't shoot, there's a problem.

3. I fail to see how any of the firearms you mentioned could be safer than the squeeze cocker. They all have adequate safety measures. The only variable is the operator.

Just MHO, YMMV and all that. . .

Shake

[notbubba]

I don't know who told you that a walther p99 was the most accurate, but they don't even make the list.

[Mike Irwin]

So far the greatest functional liability with the P7 series of handguns is the firing pin retainer.

Any of you familiar with it knows that it looks something like the cap off an SKS cleaning kit, a cap with a hole in the center with two "L" shaped legs.

The P7 has been in service for a bit over 10 years now with the US Park Police, and the legs have been fracturing off of the caps. Apparently after several years of use, wear, and tear, the legs weaken and during firing can fracture, leaving the gun hung up.

This is now addressed during the shift weapons inspection. Any retainers that are suspect are immediately replaced.

[BHP9]

is complete drivel. If you hold in the cocker, release the safety or cock the hammer, the gun is cocked. Doesn't matter how it got there. You're not making any sense at all. Why should it matter if you have a cocked Sig, 1911 or P7 in your hand?

Again you are ignoring exactly how people use these weapons. With the Hk the gun is squeezed in a moment of crisis and the finger is invariably on the trigger and so too with the glock No matter how extensive the training. If this were not true then all of the people that were shot by police who the police did not even want to shoot would still be alive today. The most recent being a lawsuit were a girl was shot by the police. I just read about it in one of the gun rags that I got this month.

More than one person has posted that they have seen police running down the street to the seen of a crime with their fingers on the trigger of both Glocks and HK's and any other service arm that they happend to be carrying. Human nature is human nature, it does not change especially under extreme stress.

The point I am trying to make is a very simple one. People are going to inadvertently put their finger on the trigger if they fell threatend. Having your finger on the trigger of a single action with the hammer down or even with the safety on is one example. Another is having your finger on the trigger of a hard to pull double action only pistol or a double action, single action pistol.

The problem only becomes very dangerous with pistols like the HK squeeze cocker and the Glock where the finger on the trigger of the cocked weapon is way more dangerous than any of the above examples.

WE cannot ignore the mechanical differences of these pistols and we cannot claim that human nature will suddenly change because we like a particular type of handgun and therefore tend to ignore the reality of the mechanical aspects of the weapon and how it is used in real life, not the fantasy world of the firearms forums.

Seeing is believeing and when you have been around firearms as long as I have and seen how people actually use them in real life it is far different than reading about them in the gun rags or on the internet. As Murphy's law so plainly states, "anything that can happen will happen" and unfortunately this is all to true when it comes to firearms. Under stress the brain slows down no matter how intelligent a person is and no matter how much training one receives. Sure training helps but when it goes against the human nature for survival the training will fail every time and moral considerations also go right out the window.

Case in point. During WWII veterens that I knew personally told me that when under stress they shot anything that moved including civilians and even fellow soldiers that were of their own nationality. It was the survival instinct kicking in and those that shot first and asked questions later survived and those that did not sometimes did not survive. The same mentality is at work today just as it has been at work for thousands of years. It is very evident in police work where one mistake can mean the difference between you going home or the bad guy going home.

When you have a weapon that makes it too easy to pull the trigger before the brain takes over from the immediate physical and mental fight for survival the gun goes bang before the brain actually wanted it to. This is exactly why such things as the Glock New York trigger was developed, not as good as the long hard double action pull of the double action only or double action single action but still much better than the lighter original pull of the first generation Glock. Now, what does all this have to do with the HK ? Simply this , the HK does not even have any equivlent of the Glock New York trigger making it all the more dangerous of accidental discharge and the counter argument that the gun is safe until squeeze cocked ignores the reality that under the extreme stress of life or death the gun will be squeeze cocked , ready to fire with the finger on the trigger. Once again this is human nature and the fight for survival reaction that goes into lightening quick play under such circumstances.

To ignore all of this is to ignore human nature and reality.

[Handy]

Silly person,

The P7, realistically, has two triggers that must both be pulled to fire the gun. One is light and SA, the other is the cocking lever that takes 12 lbs. to pull, similar to a DA auto.

Once again, you are excusing the culpable operator for pulling not one trigger, but two. In use, a 1911 is taken off safe and left there in the hand. If you take the safety off with your finger on the trigger, it will also fire. There is no essential difference, except of course that the P7 "safety" is much harder to disengage.


There isn't a person on this board that will back you up if you're going to insist that a P7 is less safe because it has both a trigger AND a cocking/safety lever.

[BHP9]

Once again, you are excusing the culpable operator for pulling not one trigger, but two. In use, a 1911 is taken off safe and left there in the hand. If you take the safety off with your finger on the trigger, it will also fire. There is no essential difference, except of course that the P7 "safety" is much harder to disengage.

True enough but what you failed to mention was that when a person takes the safety off of a 1911 he has made the conscience decision to fire . It was a step he had to go through to fire the weapon that gives the brain the chance to kick in and say "do I want to do this" . No such step is found in the Hk. Under stress the gun is cocked and therefore it has no safety in play a the time. In the usual normal operation of the gun it is being cocked as it is drawn when the operator is under stress. It is absolutely normal to get the gun in a death like grip when one grabs on to it thereby automatically cocking this weapon and making it ready to fire even though the operator has not made the conscience decision yet to fire the weapon.

I have seen many people under stress with the 1911 and although the finger is on the trigger the thumb is riding on the manueal safety ready to disengage if the shooter wishes to fire. Now I do agree that if the person disengages the safety then the gun becomes as dangerous as the HK squeeze cocker and if a double action only gun is manuelly cocked rather than use the safer double action mode then it too becomes as dangerous as the HK. The whole point of course being that the operator under pressure has the option with the single action with safety on or double action in double action mode to operate the weapon in a far safer mode than the HK squeeze cocker. True the operatior could leave the HK uncocked but this is hardly likely in a stress senario as proved in actual use with the Police departments that used this gun. As a matter of fact it got so bad with police accidentally shooting themselves with this weapon that they actually at least attempted to teach the Police to try and draw the gun with the finger off of the trigger and also not to cock the gun on the draw something that did not work out in the harsh life or death pressures of street fighting. You can grip the hell out of a 1911 or a double action automatic as you will inevitably do when drawing under stress without putting the gun into the fire mode until A. the double action is consciously pulled through its long double action arc or the single action has had its safety thumbed down and off all which adds the extra split second that allows you to think before pulling the trigger.

As a matter of fact the most recent needless death occured with the police shooting a girl who's head accidentally bumped the officers hand which caused the Glock he was carring to dishcarge killing her. Would not have happened with the long double action arc of the double action automatic or even a single action (which few police use these days) with the safety on.

All of this basically proves that in police use or even in civilian use the double action automatic especially the double action automatic that even has a workable manuel safety is the pistol that is least likely to go off before the operator wants it to go off.

Lets face facts, if the operator has to disenaged a manuel safety and then pull the trigger through a long double action arc it is light years safer than any HK, Glock or even single action Automatic. Many people do not like this type of firearm , including yours truly, but I cannot deny that it is the safest of the automatics. It will fire only when you want it to fire, something you cannot say for certain about the HK, the Glock or the Single Action automatics.

[Handy]

On Glocks, I agree to a certain extent, which is why I use and recommend NY1 triggers.

I don't think you understand how a P7 is supposed to be employed:

With the P7, what you are describing is the incorrect use of the pistol. There is no more need to "cock on draw" as there is to take a BHP safety off on draw or cock a DA pistol. Building clearing and all that should be done with the cocking lever relaxed, not held in. When a surprise decision to fire is made, the user pulls both trigger and cocking lever; an action nearly identical to pulling a DA trigger both mechanically and ergonomically. You can't employ this method with a Cond. 1 auto because you can not reliably disengage the safety AND pull the trigger at the same time, or binding may result.

I can't make you like such a system, but in arguing against it you have pretty much built the case against every system that does not rely on a heavy DA trigger. Hopefully, you now understand that the P7 system is actually more akin to a DA auto than any other, when used in the correct manner.

And before you begin a lecture on human nature and whether gun X will be used correctly, keep in mind that all of these designs can be abused. A DA auto user can cock on draw, run around with his finger on the trigger (mistakenly trusting the heavy trigger) or even attempt to stage the trigger and hold it. All of which are just as stupid and deadly as anything you describe.

Given your predilictions, I hope you don't carry your namesake.

[dude]

...........but I see is need to be said again!

"you will note that most all P7-bashers have no idea what they are talking about and their knowledge of the weapon is limited to being able to pick one out of a police suspect line-up!"



12lbs to accuate the squeeze saftey? dude, it's 4lbs to accuate and 1lb to hold

.....but don't let actuall facts get in your way, please continue

[Rich357]

This isn't really "service grade" but it is a highly accurate nine, the S&W Performance Center 952-1.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/Products/Firearms/pc/m952.htm

I have a P226 in 9mm, several Glocks in 9mm, a SA 1911A1 in 9mm, a Walther P99 in 9mm and others including the S&W PC 952-1. The S&W PC 952-1 is the most accurate of my 9s. It is also highly reliable.

I've shot a P7M8 a few times but not engough to become good with it. I've never had the pleasure of shooting a SIG P210.

Rich

[dude]

Coonan!











(joke)

[Handy]

Dude,

I don't know where you're getting your numbers. The cocker requires 1.5 pounds of pressure to hold in, according to HK (check your manual). The trigger pull is about 3 to 4 pounds, not the cocking lever.

The cocking lever certainly takes more pressure than a single action trigger does. Perhaps you meant 4 kilos? The usual figure stated is 12 pounds, but the P7 normal and tech manuals doen't list a weight.

If your cocker only takes 4 pounds to pull (less than a basic 1911 trigger) it is broken. Have it inspected.

[BevrFevr]

This thread was four pages long. Now I see the usual suspects are at it again.

So what the hey I'll make it worse. HK P7's are overpriced and a funky design.

If imitation is the best form of flattery why does no other manufacturer use the Squeze shlocker? Every good pistol has it's share of copy cats and clones but why not the p7? hmmmm

I would own one if it cost about 200 but anything more is a rip off. They should rename it the P7 Sucker Finder. It would be a much better pistol with conventional controls and no funky lever.

It even says it's a Gas RETARDED Blowback action.

:evil:

-bevr

[Handy]

Bevr,

Good post on the evils of progress and change. Close the patent office! Maintain the status quo!

[Tamara]

Darn right! Whoever said "TANSTAAFL" was a liar! Different is always better! ;)

[Handy]

Handy, breaking into a cold sweat as he stars at his computer, thinks:Uh oh, Tamara posted in disagreement. Better reverse myself before her fan club joins in.


Hell yes! Different sucks! Down with change! There is only one right way! I hate foreigners! Vote republican or you're gay! Back to the old way! Down with brand B! Put Steve Jobs to death!



Phew, I hope that holds them back. I'm just not a very good reactionary.

[goon]

From what I am seeing, there is little difference between the best examples.
I can say from my own experience that my CZ and my SIG are both in the same general area as far as accuracy goes.
I had a MKIII BHP that may have been accurate, but the trigger was heavy as hell.
You guys can argue over a half an inch if you want to, but the fact remains that if you were to take one of each and shoot them all against each other, you would be hard pressed to be able to predict which would win.
If you are considering buying one, just get the one you like the best and cross your fingers.

[BHP9]

Handy, breaking into a cold sweat as he stars at his computer, thinks:Uh oh, Tamara posted in disagreement. Better reverse myself before her fan club joins in.

Hey Handy, if it makes you fell any better I am one of your fans. This is not a joke. I mean it. I enjoy debating with you because you always remain a scholar and a gentleman. I know we do not often agree but I enjoy reading about your points of view because of the way you post them.

You probably will not belive me but you may just convince me to buy yet another HK squeeze cocker. Its one of the few 9mm's I do not currently own even though I did own two of them in the past.

Don't let the howling mob get you down. There is a lot of silent readers who probably agree with you or in my case enjoy reading your posts.

[dude]

Handy, have you ever actually seen/touched/shot a P7? (!)

.....I'll bet no

[Handy]

Dude, I see you just removed your joust about trigger pull, and have just gone to a childish challenge, which amounts to calling me a liar.


I see you used to be a TFLer as well, so I can't understand how you would say I don't have a gun that I've written about so many times. But if you want to email me, I'll provide you with a serial number and you can check with HKUSA, as I had the gun in for service 2 years ago.

While you're on the phone with them, you can ask if a 4 lbs. cocking lever is normal, and then arrange to have yours fixed. Or you could try a trigger pull gauge. (You'll note that I haven't resorted to calling YOU a liar.)

But I will go so far as to note that your knowledge of the P7 series has extended to asking if a $400 PSP is a "good deal" and claiming that the Seals use it. Very impressive knowledge.

[dude]

I have seen a seal with one while at work. $400 PSP?? ..........what are you talking about??

I still ask the same question.

[Handy]

If you are the same DUDE from TFL who had a P99 and wanted a P7, then yes, you asked about a $400 PSP.


I answered your question by inviting you to verify my ownership with the manufacturer.


I believe Lunde, Incursion and Tamara all have P7s. PM them if you think I'm wrong about the cocking lever.

[dude]

I'm not that 'DUDE'.......sorry
I was on the TFL for a bit though!

I've been a P7 shooter/owner since 83 and have as yet not felt the need to give HK a call. I was quoted the the 4lb/1lb number for the squeezy but never verifyed.

[Tamara]

See? You have fans, too. :) (Maybe you can convince him that the P7 isn't made "largely from cheap sheet metal stampings". ;) )

Anyhow, I was just responding to your "Newer and different is better!" post with a "Is newer and different automatically better?" one. I have a P7. It's my second one as a matter of fact. I am very, very enamoured of it; it may be my favorite semiauto. Explain to me, however, why you think it is better than a GP-35 or a 1911. ("Newer" and "different" don't count... ;) )

[Handy]

So if it in un-verified, why are you preaching it as gospel and calling me a liar in public?




Folks, sorry to have hijacked this quite reasonable thread into a P7 debate. The P7 is the only common fixed barrel "service pistol", which is the reason it is so much more mechanically accurate than other excellent pistol. That is a seperate issue than the cocking lever, lead bullets or its price tag. Again, sorry to all.

[Tamara]

I was quoted the the 4lb/1lb number for the squeezy but never verifyed.

Whoever quoted it to you was wrong. ;)

[Handy]

Tamara,

What you responded to was MY response to Bevr's "not invented here" rhetoric. I didn't make any claims at that time, aside from finding the 'no imitators = bad' arguement absurd and reactionary. In English, "progress and change" is not synonymous with "P7 is better than HP", which is what you somehow managed to read.


Having made no "P7 is better" claims in this thread, I don't understand why I should need to defend such a position. And I think you are more than aware of the simple accurate compact durable reliable ambidextrous low-muzzle-flip arguements for me to need to restate them for you.


Are you itching for a fight this badly, even when there is nothing to fight about?

[George Hill]

I've seen quite a few SIG P232's in service with Detectives in Virginia, and I have seen a couple here in Utah as well. They are fixed barrel too.
:p

Okay, they were all back up... but that is still service!

[Tamara]

In English, "progress and change" is not synonymous with "P7 is better than HP", which is what you somehow managed to read.

Please show me where in that first "TANSTAAFL" post I used the words "P7" or "HP". I guess you get to make generalized tongue-in-cheek posts and I don't? ;) :p


Are you itching for a fight this badly, even when there is nothing to fight about?

Nope, and I'm truly sorry that I set you off so badly. Please continue... :(

[incursion]

The squeeze cocker takes much more than 4.5 lbs. to cock. My trigger has been measured at 3 lbs., and there is no way that the cocker only takes 1.5 lbs. of more pressure to depress it.

[Handy]

a P7. It's my second one as a matter of fact. I am very, very enamoured of it; it may be my favorite semiauto. Explain to me, however, why you think it is better than a GP-35 or a 1911

P7 = "P7" = "It's" HP = HiPower = "GP-35"




George, that may be true.

[Tamara]

Please show me where in that first "TANSTAAFL" post...

Try again...

[Handy]

You're RIGHT Tamara! I responded to the clarification of your post, rather than your first post.

(That was some right fine lawyering!)



So, in your first post, where did you get that I said "different is better"? Feel free to quote me, since you dig that.

[BevrFevr]

?

Where the hell did that come from? :confused:

Handy, pal, I guess you couldn't tell I was being facetious. I thought the little devil face was a clue.

I only jerk your chain because it is so easy and it is my feeling you were taking over this thread that started out pretty cool.

It's just my observation for whatever it's worth but you seem to get pretty tense in alot of these discussions. I would feel bad if you had a stroke or something cause I said something that did not compute.

Lighten Up it just ain't worth it. If someone doesn't agree with you don't take it as an attack on your wisdom or character.

-bevr

[Handy]

Well Bev, I sympathise.

But understand that your devilish post came on the tails of many similar posts. If you think I get upset easy, you're wrong. What I am guilty of is addressing posts that reference mine if they are challenges to the veracity of the information. That's just something I do.

I would have been very comfortable with one or two posts about a gun that I know is more accurate than the other offerings. But in writing "P7", that automatically signals everybody with an opinion to start going on about lead reloads, pricetags, the way the gun works, hard chroming, shooter safety and the price of pie in Obendorf. None of which has anything to do with whether that pistol is "the most accurate service-grade 9mm".

If you would rather I don't "take over" a thread, don't respond with stupid, off topic stuff to my posts. Then I won't feel the need to respond in kind.

Also I didn't realize that the evil [:evil: ] icon is also the humor icon. That is probably due to me completely lacking a sense of humor.:scrutiny:

[modifiedbrowning]

Since I have never even seen a Sig 210, I can't comment on that Pistol. As far as a modern service grade 9mm, EVERYONE knows that the Walther P88 is the most accurate. Come on people!:evil:

[355sigfan]

Sig 226.

PAT

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

The Astra 600?

Fixed barrel. K.I.S.S.-blowback action. Nice solid piece. Mine'll do minute-of-milkjug at 100 yards if I do my part. Minute-of-soda can off of a rest if I'm doing good that day. :p

But then, so will Sven's CZ-75. :D

[jacketch]

In my hand the most accurate would be the P35 High Power.

[Sactown]

I'll throw in my vote for the Swiss Army's Sig P210. So far the 210 fund is sitting at $3.43.