home defense quandry

[carlrodd]

recently, a number of individuals committed a grave act of vandalism on my parents' property, which also happens to be connected to mine. late in the evening, they entered our yard, spray painted in black all over my mother's car(the damage was extensive...3/4 of the car was defaced), and then proceeded to throw rocks through their dining room window. some of the symbols and words they sprayed on the car were threatening(generally, and directed to our neighbourhood), and some were clearly gang related. in addition, i find rocks being thrown through windows, especially at a home that clearly currently had people in it, to be terroristic and threatening.

you might call me foolish or rash or irresponsible, but if something like this was to happen again on my property, and i caught them in the act, i would shoot. if these people are willing to come onto my property again, and with malicious intent, as they have already done, they've sealed their fate.

still, please share thoughts.

p.s. to mods: please move this if it should be in a different place.

[hoghunting]

I don't know the laws in Delaware, but in Texas, you can use deadly force to protect one's property. It might not always be the best thing in a Grand Jury's eyes though.

[Lee Lapin]

You could buy a lot of fencing, gates and dogs for what a lawyer or three will cost you.

Just a thought fwiw...

lpl/nc

[V4Vendetta]

Delete your post. I'm not sure of the Delaware laws but basicly you have just admitted shooting someone for damaging a car. This topic that you have created might come back to haunt you.

[exar]

As frustrating as it is, you just can't shoot someone for defacing property. Although, a nice wooden Louisville slugger might be in order. If you can't catch 'em to deliver the @$$ whoopin', get a paintball gun and open the valve to allow maximum gas through then aim for their face.

[ShootingEnthusiatist]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. The person(s) resposible should be held liable for their actions. I'm sure that you feel violated and would like to enact revenge on the perp(s).

However, I would offer that you call the police and report the situation to them. Maybe they could step-up patrol around the residence. IMHO this would be better than confronting the BG with guns a blazin'. If they can stop these people now, while they're seemingly non-violent, all the better.

Good luck.

[V4Vendetta]

I agree with getting the paintball gun & dogs. Dogs are great alarm systems. Would you rather have a ADT system that calls for help that might not get there while you are getting your face kicked in, or a dog that would alert you & fight beside you?:)

[carlrodd]

If they can stop these people now, while they're seemingly non-violent, all the better.

i guess my big problem is, i don't consider throwing rocks through the windows of a house that people(senior citizens) are currently inside of(as could not have been more evident), to be non-violent. if that's non-violent, what's next?

a police report was filed.

[hso]

I sure understand your feelings and I can understand wanting to respond this way, but you should heed the advice of the folks here and spend the money on materials to keep them out or minimize the damage.

Please do not get a paintball gun and open the valve to allow maximum gas through then aim for their face., since you'll be in as much trouble blowing an eye out as killing one of them. It's a childish idiotic suggestion (although it sounds fun to the thoughtless and immature).

Cameras, monitoring system, barriers, lights. Make it so that they know that they won't be anonymous
.

[SomeKid]

I see no quandry at all, as this is a possible next time scenario.

Rocks were thrown through your window, and based past threats (document the threats that were painted), you felt this time they were going to come in and kill you.

Sue their estate (or their families since they are likely juveniles) for the damages caused.

[V4Vendetta]

"paintball gun and open the valve to allow maximum gas through then aim for their face."

"since you'll be in as much trouble blowing an eye out as killing one of them. It's a childish idiotic suggestion (although it sounds fun to the thoughtless and immature)."


Aim center mass then. Or if you can hit it, the knees. :)

[Freddymac]

Admitting that you would shoot someone (no matter how well deserved) on a public forum, just might come back to bit you in the A$$. Say that they come back, you catch them red handed, and decide just to detain them until the law arrives. Of course you have your trusty side arm with you, when one of them attacks you. You are now in a justified situation to defend your self, but if the DA is one of those spineless SOB’s that think that we do not have the right to defend our selves and our property, they will do everything to make you look bad. If the see your post, they could argue that “you went out there to KILL” or that your actions were premeditated out of revenge. Then they will go on to say that the poor child that you murdered came from a broken home, was socio-economically disadvantaged… wha… wha… wha.
All I’m saying is please think twice about what you say on a publicly recorded medium.
Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

[exar]

http://www.pepperball.com/faqs.asp

Actually, pepperballs fired from a paint marker are an excellent means of non-lethal defense.:neener:

[Biker]

After being sued in a civil court twice over violent encounters, I'm very cautious about what I publically say or even intimate. There was stuff brought up from years previous. I easily won both suits, but was amazed at how easily a bottom-feeding lawyer can spin a simple statement. Just a thought...

Biker

[carlrodd]

thanks for all the advice. i guess since this is a public forum, and i don't want to be misunderstood, i should state the following for all future readers: i'm not itching to shoot anyone. i simply feel very strongly that my 70 year-old father, and 64 year-old mother should not have to feel threatened in their own house, on their own property. this behaviour was violent and destructive. my concern is, where does it stop? it wasn't like someone batted our mailbox, or let the air out of a tire. thousands of dollars of damage were done to a car, rocks were thrown through the windows of a well lit house, and threatening words were painted. that's setting the bar pretty high.

i also forgot to mention that the word 'loc' was painted as well. loc is a word gangs, specifically the crips(or wannabe gangs) use to describe committing a crime in front of other gang members in order to be initiated. i suspect this s**t will continue. we've had an increasing number of tagging incidents and violent crimes in our little area recently. the officer i spoke to didn't seem to think this was very important.

[Biker]

I understand your anger and frustration. The problem can be dealt with. I would highly recommend that you score up a copy of "In The Gravest Extreme" by Mas Ayoob. The knowledge I gained from that book a couple of decades ago saw me through a few legal encounters. We don't have to bend over for these bastiges. We can win on the street and in the courtroom. I had no problem on the street, but had a lot to learn about the courtroom - that book was a huge help.
Luck, Friend...:)

Biker

[carlrodd]

thanks biker, i will check it out.

[rustymaggot]

i hate gangs and i understand your frustrations, but just shooting them makes you the bad guy. video tape the guys next time and turn that into the police. then sue their parents for damages.

[ShootingEnthusiatist]

Thanks for the clarifications carlrodd.

Those 'seemingly non-violent' acts appear to be compounding and becoming more serious. Have you spoken with your neighbors? Thought about forming a watch program? Do you have a camcorder that you could setup to record their actions? Just trying to offer pro-active solutions to your dilemna.

I've had similar problems and realize that I would have only compounded the situation by confronting the individuals while armed. Mind you, if their dumb enough to enter an occupied dwelling here in FL, I can exercise my right to defend myself and the lives of my family. Anyway, here's the resolution of a problem I experienced a few years ago.

I rented a condo (with an ex) in a nice neighborhood. One night her car was broken into and some minor things were stolen. I went around and inspected windows. Put locks on them. Setup a webcam to record the action for awhile. Called the police more than once when they were drinking (underage) in the parking spots. I spoke with neighbors about the situation, and collectively we refused to sit back and watch them destroy the tranquility of our neighborhood. The homeowner, a single mother, realized the trouble her foster kids were causing but did little to fix the situation. That was until the association threatened to force her out. Problem got solved as peacefully as possible.

Good luck with your situation and I hope you and your parents can soon live in peace.

[zoom6zoom]

Based on your first post, I'd believe that in some jurisdictions this could be logged as a "hate crime" if symbols or ethic attacks were involved. That usually ramps up the official response because the media eats that stuff with a big spoon.

[carlrodd]

shooting enthusiast, i spoke to a couple of my neighbours(we live in a small neighbourhood with only about 12 houses, but it butts up on some bad areas). we've agreed to give up a few hours of one night a week to quietly watch some of the trouble spots in the neighbourhood. that should cover a few nights out of the week for starters.

[ShootingEnthusiatist]

I just remember the frustration at the whole situation. It's sad that you have to spend your time 'policing' the neighborhood. On the other hand, that's better than letting the trouble makers continue their aggressive behavior, and possibly harming somebody in the process.

[Sry0fcr]

Move to Texas, more than likely you wouldn't be charged with anything.

[carlrodd]

Move to Texas, more than likely you wouldn't be charged with anything.

there's the other part of the quandry.....when have you had enough? i would like to think of this as my first experience with putting my money where my mouth is when it comes to tough talk about standing up for myself, my family, gun rights, constitutional principals etc. thanks for the offer, assuming you're from texas, but i intend to be a person who is never pushed from his home, either literally or figuratively, by anyone.

[V4Vendetta]

Besides, Texas is really hot all the time I hear.:fire:

[MedGrl]

My family had a similar seriese of incidents about five years aog. We put up motion sensor lighting in our front and side yards and a six foot anti-scaling fence in our back yard. SInce we live in the suburbs there are plenty of other houses around and the threat of being seen in the lights seemed to take care of the problem. I don't know if you live in more rural or urban areas but if you have neighborss that are close enough to see your house then I would suggest the lighting and organizing a neighborhood watch of sorts.

[hso]

Besides, Texas is really hot all the time I hear.

Wrong again.

I've had to wear a jacket every time I've gone to San Antonio for the past 4 years.

[V4Vendetta]

Must be a different Texas.:D :p :D

[Low-Sci]

I know putting up lights and getting a dog seems like a very un-satisfying end to the situation, especially compared to shooting, and for me, especially compared to a retaliatory paintballing the next time they show up.

Unfortunately, we have to save it and get our satisfaction in court, when and if that day comes, if we want to remain law-abiding citizens.

You could hold the kids at gunpoint and wait for the cops if you catch them next time. Its a well-principled approach, its not overbearing, but I think it does involve unnecessary risk to yourself.

An approach that's a little strange that might be useful would be to find a permanent dye that you can load into a spray gun. If you catch them, you can videotape the act and tag them right back, then call the police and tell them you just got vandalized by three soggy-looking purple kids.

[JMusic]

Believe me a large dog attached to someones a$$ is very satisfying. Don't underestimate what they can do for you. Shooting is and should always be the last resort no matter how bad they need it. A dog believe it or not usually gains more respect than a man with a gun.
Jim

[308win]

What precipitated the vandalism? If there is history here you need to take that into account as well.

Block watches, motion sensors, and watchdogs are all good suggestions. Shooting someone over property isn't unless exigent circumstances are involved - like you happen to be sitting in it when they try to torch it.

[Matt King]

Please Don't kill anybody in a sudden outburst of anger. If your life is not in direct danger, don't shoot anybody. Here are some tips to make it harder for further vandalism to occur:

1.Buy good outdoor lights.
2.Consider getting a dog.
3.If you see vandalism occur on your property call the cops.
4.Install high fences.
5.Park your car in your garage, instead of in your driveway.

I hope these help.

Vandalism burns me up :cuss: , however please don't kill anybody that you don't have to. Reserve that option for the very gravest extreme.

[Biker]

Folks, it could be that a lot of folks just don't have a lot of spare cash (witness me). Things aren't always so simple.

Biker

[jrou111]

In my neighborhood, you could use rock salt. Probably not where you are.

[MechAg94]

If you see them again, you might arm yourself and challenge them if they are in the process of trespassing and vandalism. You can then take it from there. You have to take some care though. The additional steps mentioned above would be helpful. Above all, make sure you have a track record of police reports on the incidents.

For about 4 months of the year, Texas has a season called Fallwinterspring. Other than that it is Summer with varying degrees of heat and humidity. Even Fallwinterspring is interspersed with warm periods. Down here near the Gulf Coast it is even rare to actually get below freezing.

[carlrodd]

What precipitated the vandalism? If there is history here you need to take that into account as well.

the only thing that precipitated the vandalsim was a recent influx of ne'er do wells that were displaced from a section 8 neighbourhood nearby that is being redeveloped.

our yard is too large to install huge fences and the like. we don't have that kind of money, and as silly as it sounds, i refuse to close myself in like that. some flood lights are a possibility, but neighbours don't live that close that it would be very noticeable if they went on. i like the idea of spraying something on the vandals. i have a 200,000 volt taser that just sits around. i'm also kicking around the idea of getting one down and hitting him with that if they come around again.

[armedandsafe]

The last 5 years or so I lived in San Diego, the Crips and the Bloods decided to move into our suburb. We organized a neighborhood patrol and had a pretty quiet area for about 6 blocks in all directions from my house. One of the local cops told me that the backs of street signs leading into our area were marked as entering a danger zone by both gangs. Putting a few of the early intruders in jail helped our reputation a lot. We had a couple of retaliatory raids by gang members early on but that proved costly for them, also. Having over 75% military and ex-military in the neighbothood probably had something to do with it. :evil:

Pops

[V4Vendetta]

"the only thing that precipitated the vandalsim was a recent influx of ne'er do wells that were displaced from a section 8 neighbourhood nearby that is being redeveloped. our yard is too large to install huge fences and the like. we don't have that kind of money, and as silly as it sounds, i refuse to close myself in like that. some flood lights are a possibility, but neighbours don't live that close that it would be very noticeable if they went on. i like the idea of spraying something on the vandals. i have a 200,000 volt taser that just sits around. i'm also kicking around the idea of getting one down and hitting him with that if they come around again."


No where was getting a dog mentioned.:scrutiny: . I'd reccommend a lab/chow mix. Good size, nice bark & very loving to it's family:) :) . I think the taser option is a bad idea. What if the BG gets electrocuted to death:uhoh: ? I can just picture the DA's opening statement at your trial. It goes like this:

DA: "Ladies & gentleman of the jury. I want to thank you first of all for your taking time out of your lives to be on this jury. However boring you might feel it is, I want you to think about the fact that [BG's name here] will never be able to sit on a jury. He won't be able to do anything because [defendant's name here] shot him with a taser gun & fried his poor little body to a crisp. Have you folks ever seen what happens to a body when a person is electrocuted to death? Their eye's sometimes pop out of their sockets & on to their cheeks. Their liver gets so hot it can't be held by human hands during the autopsy. [defandant's name] wanted to murder someone. During this trial, I'll show you the pages of several websites he visited for information on how to murder poor [BG's name]. [BG's name here] just wanted to be accepted by his friends. That's why he went to [location] that night. Not to hurt anybody. Just to play around a little bit. But because of [defendant's name] blooodlust, a young man's life with a bright future was cut tragicly short. I ask that you take "a eye for a eye". Return a verdict of guilty so that maybe, just maybe, [BG's name] soul will be able to rest in peace."

If there are any real lawyers looking at this post I'd appreciate a PM telling me if my opening statement was something you guys would say. Maybe I should become a lawyer who just does the opening & closing statements.*thinks*.

[meef]

Question:

How is having the large dog you bought for protection (punishment?) taking a large bite out of somebody's butt any more litigation-proof than shooting them where you shouldn't with a paintball gun? And I'd think you'd have a bit more control over what the paintball gun does than a what sufficiently pissed off big dog might get around to.

Seems like either way you're apt to be in a deep pile of legal trouble....:scrutiny:

One method has been condemned here; the other frequently recommended.

Just wondering........:confused:

[carlrodd]

tasers are completely non-lethal

[wheelgunslinger]

good point Meef.
Also, approaching a gang member with a taser, paintball gun, or other non-lethal device could end with you getting yourself killed. And what good would that do you or your parents?

The camcorder is a good idea, and so are the lights. And, I'll second Biker's post about the book you need to read. Deadly force is part of the continuum of defensive force, but not the only part. Use it if you have to, but don't be in a big hurry to do so.

[Nickotym]

NOTHING is completely non-lethal.

[Lee Lapin]

"tasers are completely non-lethal"
==========================
I strongly suggest you do a little more homework. You might find a couple of facts that offset your opinion. Like:
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/police_back_tasers.htm
http://effectmeasure.blogspot.com/2005/02/another-taser-death.html
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Oct-23-Sat-2004/news/25075550.html
In fact, when I ran a search on Google for the words "Taser" and "death" I got a total of 607,000 hits.


If in fact you are dealing with real gangs or wannabees, then you have a real problem. Direct confrontation is not in your best interest, that's what gangs do best. Never fight an opponent in their area of strength, look for their weaknesses and use those against them. If you go to war with the gang on the gang's terms, you essentially set yourself up as just one more gang in the fight (even if you are only a 'gang of one,' to steal a phrase from my former employer). And more than that, you directly challenge the gang. They CANNOT ignore you at that point. They have to not only come back, but do more bad things. That means real damage.

And if you set yourself up as an equal participant in that fight, the odds are better than even that the authorities will treat you as if you were but a member of a marauding gang. After all, the authorities are all about social control. They might not be able to exert any control over a group of local youts acting in loose confederation, with no known addresses or assets, who by the way might be genuinely dangerous if confronted by said authorities. But you, my friend, have a known address, a job, an income, assets, a good name/reputation and community standing. The authorities can darn well exert social control on you. And unless I miss my guess, they would jump at the chance to do so.

Besides, you aren't viewed as nearly so dangerous as that loose confederation of local youts.

You are a lot softer target, and the repercussions of your arrest and trial will ripple far out in the community. You will be a good example of what happens when (gasp!) you take the law into your own hands. You see, government needs people who need government. And they INSIST that you need them, in many cases. You want to be an example? Fine, go ahead and pick a fight with these kids. Just think about how you will look on the front page of the local paper when the picture of your perp walk appears above the fold.

Please note I am not attempting to jerk your chain here. I'm an oldphart retiree, not a teenage keyboard commando. Disbelieve all this if you want, it's no skin off my posterior region. We don't have gangs out here in the country where I live, but we still have crime- and I built a fence around the house and another around the entire 5 acres we live on, and all the gates are locked all the time. The fence is there to keep the dogs in (and the neighbor's buffalo out), and the dogs are there to keep wouldbe trespassers out. So far it's worked fine.

You think you can't afford a fence? Try renting a lawyer for a few months. You better get smart, quick, or you are risking losing everything you ever had, to include your parents' lives- or your own. IF these kids are a real gang that is. Don't get so busy thinking about what you are going to do to them that you forget to think about what THEY can do to YOU. They have less to lose.

And I am not saying just roll over and take it, or move out and let them have the area as part of their new turf. I _am_ saying you'd better learn to fight smarter, so you don't have to fight harder. Start out by doing what it takes to get the authorities on your side, and not making yourself their target-instead of that loose confederation of local youts. The authorities need victims who need their help- you'd better learn to portray yourself to them as a victim, not as the neighborhood Patton/Rambo/John the Wayne. Ask about help in establishing a Neighborhood Watch, or cooperate/participate in any other community outreach programs your local law enforcement organization(s) happen to have going.

Truth is, the 'gang in blue' can act just like any other street gang sometimes (and some street gangs have actually infliltrated the local law enforcement organizations as well, remember). What you want to do first is gather the authorities up and aim them at that loose confederation of local yout which is causing your problems. You _don't_ want to bring the authorities down on your own head by doing something open, obvious, rash and unmistakeably attributable to you and only you against the gang that's moving into your neighborhood and attacking your parents' property. And you _don't_ want to go yelling to the media about how the local cops aren't doing their jobs, and aren't protecting your aged parents who are good citizens and taxpayers and are being victimized by an out-of-control criminal gang.

Here's some homework- http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html .

Good luck,

lpl/nc

[carlrodd]

Lee Lapin, thanks for your post. my emotions run high, but i do consider my choices before i act, and i appreciate all the suggestions and help from everybody here. i'm streetwise enough to know generally who i'm dealing with, and what they're capable of, but i've been paying very close attention to everyone's responses regarding reactions to these people, and how perceptions could be twisted by LE or the media. i do however rue the fact that in most parts of our country, an honest, responsible, law-abiding man can no longer zealously pursue justice when his family and property are taken advantage of. i should have been born in a holler somewhere in the appalachians.

[Kentak]

I haven't read every post, but what happened when you reported this to the police. Any suspects? Etc.

K

[SSN Vet]

Time to start raising a major stink.....

Just calling the police and speaking with one officer is not going to get you anywhere. Do not let is rest there.

Make an appointment with the Chief....insist on it....fo together with your neighbors. Insist that he tell you what specific actions he is going to take. Your giving the Chief the opportunity to work with you....but if he's not interested.....

Go to the municiple official (Town Manager, Mayor....) if you don't get satisfactory responses from the Chief.

If he won't meet with you....time to call the newspapers (and/or TV). How are these "public servants" going to respond to bad press about how they are not stepping up to the plate. Make sure you use terms like "gang invasion", "hate crimes", "gang intimidation of the elderly".

Call your state reps. office. Request that he meet with your "community watch association".

IMO, shooting a paint ball gun with pepper loaded paint balls is an invitation for return fire from something more lethal. I wouldn't suggest doing it, unless that's the response you're looking for.

[Kentak]

Does anyone have any credible sources of information, on, say, the last ten incidents in the US where a homeowner used deadly force on vandals, esp. juvenile vandals? Wondering what the eventual outcomes for the homeowners were.

K

[carlrodd]

I haven't read every post, but what happened when you reported this to the police. Any suspects? Etc.

nothing. he took some pictures and left. after talking to some of the neighbours, we have a name that could be a start. i'm calling the police today to give them the name. i'll keep updating.

[Kentak]

I think the very act of posting here has compromised your position. Generally, you can not use deadly force against juveniles that are only threatening or committing property damage. You have posted your premeditated intent to do so. Not good, bro. Kill your account here and burn your hard drive. (Only kidding)

I suggest you do some research on what has happened to people who have reacted to vandalism as you have expressed the desire to do. Probably not good.

There are other ways to deal with this. Work with law enforcement. Make a stink. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Get some allies and get some political pressure going to do something about this menace to your neighborhood.

K

[Scottso]

In a nutshell Do not sink to there level, going out and shooting anyone, with anything has its repucussions legal and oterwise. Tasers one's down what about the other 5 -10-15? Non lethal, sometimes is lethal rubber shot to head can kill, Piantball wouldn't bother you don't want them any angrier, taking a bat to one again out numbered now what? Lights, a dog, I have 2 Boxers noone screws around by my place, Fences I saw you said too expensive What price do you put on families safety? Cheaper than lawyer fees when YOU are the aggressor, even if you win at $400hr whats it going to cost? Theres a company out that sells a motion activated hose sprayer aimed toward keeping deer and other Pests away, worth looking into.I have 5' fence enclosing my property 3 motion lights and 2 dogs, used to work nights family was safe and my piece of mind was good.First thing I bought rt after my house was a Boxer and my wife never worried. Community watches are also a good Idea, but be aware if 2 are walking watch what to do whe 5-10 BG's confront them? You got to have a real plan and then another back up plan when TSHTF. Remember this The Mob Rules!!
Courts suck lawyers will turn it around and it will cost you money, so what if you are right gonna cost a hell of alot of Sheckles to find out I should've done something else. Be careful of first impulse can cost alot. Not just money either.
Hope I helped and Stay Safe and Smart.

[AJAX22]

I've had issues with vandalism before, It never came to violance, most people run when you shout at them with an authoratative voice.

Getting a nice big dog who's a bit teritorial is probably the cheapest, most viable solution to your problem.

As nice as it sounds to run out and catch people in the act, you won't always be there to catch them. A dog will.

That being said, when I did confront the vandals, I did so from my doorway, I did not have a gun in my hands at the time as I did not want to escalate the situation, or be charged with brandishing a firearm.

I did have a shotgun within arms reach leaned up against the doorframe inside out of sight. It doesn't hurt to be prepared in the event that a situation is escalated by the other party.

[athlon64]

Make an appointment with the Chief....insist on it....fo together with your neighbors. Insist that he tell you what specific actions he is going to take. Your giving the Chief the opportunity to work with you....but if he's not interested.....

Go to the municiple official (Town Manager, Mayor....) if you don't get satisfactory responses from the Chief.

If he won't meet with you....time to call the newspapers (and/or TV). How are these "public servants" going to respond to bad press about how they are not stepping up to the plate. Make sure you use terms like "gang invasion", "hate crimes", "gang intimidation of the elderly".

+1 on this approach. Get lots of video and digital photos of the damage. Have a presentation package ready to go, present it to LE first, then pass it on to local media if insufficient response.

It sucks when vermin have more protection from the laws than law-abiding citizens.