The Real Hawkeye
May 31, 2006, 10:37 PM
Does the US military use it for sniping primarily because of superior range (flat trajectory) or primarily because it is more effective (destructive) on enemy ordnance and vehicles than 7.62 NATO?
Is the primary advantage of the .50 BMG over .308 range or effect on ordnance?
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Sheldon
May 31, 2006, 10:42 PM
I'm gonna guess both. Better range and penetration when you need it.
Lone_Gunman
May 31, 2006, 10:45 PM
How many people does the military have who can actually take advantage of the flatter trajectory and longer range of the 50 BMG over the 308?
For example, I can shoot OK with a 308 out to about 300 yds. Beyond 300 yds, I dont think it would matter what I was shooting with, I probably am not going to hit anything. The 308 would still be effective at 300 yds, so there would be no advantage to me having a 50 bmg.
For example, I can shoot OK with a 308 out to about 300 yds. Beyond 300 yds, I dont think it would matter what I was shooting with, I probably am not going to hit anything. The 308 would still be effective at 300 yds, so there would be no advantage to me having a 50 bmg.
The Real Hawkeye
May 31, 2006, 10:50 PM
How many people does the military have who can actually take advantage of the flatter trajectory and longer range of the 50 BMG over the 308?That was my thought too.
For example, I can shoot OK with a 308 out to about 300 yds. Beyond 300 yds, I dont think it would matter what I was shooting with, I probably am not going to hit anything. The 308 would still be effective at 300 yds, so there would be no advantage to me having a 50 bmg.Yeah, but that's you. A skilled and trained sniper can kill a man at five or six hundred yards with a .308, but I would imagine that that's pushing the outer edge of human ability. At that range, the .308 is more than adequate to kill a man. That being the case, I would think the primary advantage of the .50 is destructive effect on ordnance and vehicles.
For example, I can shoot OK with a 308 out to about 300 yds. Beyond 300 yds, I dont think it would matter what I was shooting with, I probably am not going to hit anything. The 308 would still be effective at 300 yds, so there would be no advantage to me having a 50 bmg.Yeah, but that's you. A skilled and trained sniper can kill a man at five or six hundred yards with a .308, but I would imagine that that's pushing the outer edge of human ability. At that range, the .308 is more than adequate to kill a man. That being the case, I would think the primary advantage of the .50 is destructive effect on ordnance and vehicles.
cracked butt
May 31, 2006, 10:50 PM
They have roughly the same starting velocity, but the BMG has a much higher Ballistic coeffiecient. The most streamlined (and expensive) .308 VLD bullets available have BCs pushing .700, the .50 BMG bullet is right around 1.000. The much decreased air resistance alone give the .50 a longer useful range, the huge amount of extra energy is just icing on the cake.
Dave Rishar
May 31, 2006, 11:06 PM
Also, consider payloads.
Both .50 caliber and .30 caliber inciendiary cartridges were used in WWII. Which are still with us today?
The .50 caliber projectiles were found to be the lower limit for effective fire starting. .30 caliber just didn't do the job.
Remember, the cartridge (and most, if not all) platforms using it were developed for anti-vehicle/anti-materiel use first and foremost; antipersonnel use is a secondary objective. Which cartridge (.50 BMG or 7.62x51mm) is more effective on stuff that's harder than flesh?
Both .50 caliber and .30 caliber inciendiary cartridges were used in WWII. Which are still with us today?
The .50 caliber projectiles were found to be the lower limit for effective fire starting. .30 caliber just didn't do the job.
Remember, the cartridge (and most, if not all) platforms using it were developed for anti-vehicle/anti-materiel use first and foremost; antipersonnel use is a secondary objective. Which cartridge (.50 BMG or 7.62x51mm) is more effective on stuff that's harder than flesh?
rockstar.esq
June 1, 2006, 12:00 AM
My feeling is that the design of the .50BMG was focused on heavy machine gun use. The interest in it as a sniper cartridge strikes me as an offshoot of the development of anti tank rifles. Now I can't say for sure what the mililtary's notion currently is regarding the .50 but I can say that there is significant evidence of snipers using the .308 out past 1000yds effectively. There are a few shooters on this forum who can and often do make hits at such ranges where the .308 still has 540 ft lbs of energy. Which is a little less energy than the .30 carbine at 100yds! This is plenty of energy to kill a man not to mention that at 1000yds most folks wouldn't see it coming. Although I'm a huge fan of the .308 Winchester, I don't think it's perfect for all things. The 300 Win Mag would be a great choice for such long range engagements without the boom and crack of the mighty .50BMG! My totally uninformed opinion is that the 50 sees more use on ordinance than anything else.
Zak Smith
June 1, 2006, 01:29 AM
A skilled and trained sniper can kill a man at five or six hundred yards with a .308, but I would imagine that that's pushing the outer edge of human ability.
I have taken reasonably coordinated people who have never shot a bolt-rifle before and had them hitting silhouettes and 10" plates at 1000 yards in about a half-hour, with a 24" 308.
Outer edge of human ability my foot! :neener:
If you are shooting at something as large as a vehicle, one can do the same thing with a new shooter with a decent 50BMG rifle at one mile distance.
The Barrett M82 is not known for notable accuracy, it is generally conceded to be a 2 MOA + rifle. With the payload projectiles, it is still an effective anti-material rifle.
-z
I have taken reasonably coordinated people who have never shot a bolt-rifle before and had them hitting silhouettes and 10" plates at 1000 yards in about a half-hour, with a 24" 308.
Outer edge of human ability my foot! :neener:
If you are shooting at something as large as a vehicle, one can do the same thing with a new shooter with a decent 50BMG rifle at one mile distance.
The Barrett M82 is not known for notable accuracy, it is generally conceded to be a 2 MOA + rifle. With the payload projectiles, it is still an effective anti-material rifle.
-z
colt.45
June 1, 2006, 01:55 AM
the big .50 has numerous advantages. the main one being that it produces 12 thousand foot-lbs:D
rangerruck
June 1, 2006, 03:39 AM
range, the other doesn't matter if you cant reach it. Plus the accuracy of the 50 is legendary, it was designed from the very beginning to be that way, with super high b.c. and s.d.
rangerruck
June 1, 2006, 03:43 AM
also if youve read soldier of fortune mags over hte past year, some of the snipers in Iraq have been making shots/kills out to 1200 yds with the 308, usually not first shot kills and with spotter, but some have. then you will read a guy on a 50, sees a target long way off , aims right where he wants, and the bullet goes through a brick wall and still makes the guy turn into a cloud of pink.
LAK
June 1, 2006, 04:26 AM
Both. Longer range, penetrates light armor and other barriers, and is effective in destroying some vehicles and equipment.
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The Real Hawkeye
June 1, 2006, 07:57 AM
I have taken reasonably coordinated people who have never shot a bolt-rifle before and had them hitting silhouettes and 10" plates at 1000 yards in about a half-hour, with a 24" 308.
Outer edge of human ability my foot!That's awesome! Notice, I said that "I imagine," which means I am taking a guess based on what I, a mere sportsman, can do if I'm totally settled into a solid prone and supported position, and then adding on top of that some training on bullet drop and wind compensation (which training I don't have, and can only take guesses about). But it is cool to know that the human potential in that regard is about twice what I had imagined it to be, given proper training. The thing is, though, that you are making my point better than I was making it, i.e., that the .308 is able to deliver a deadly payload out to the human potential of accuracy, which means that the main advantage of the .50 over the .308 must be its destructive effect, and it's ability to defeat barriers like walls and such.
Incidentally, I have a 7.62 NATO rifle (Steyr SSG Police Sniper Rifle) with which I can put quarter inch groups on a target at 100 yards from a supported position, and I don't imagine that a .50 can do much better than that. The .50 BMG has less bullet drop, but does it buck the wind any better than a good .308 round?
Outer edge of human ability my foot!That's awesome! Notice, I said that "I imagine," which means I am taking a guess based on what I, a mere sportsman, can do if I'm totally settled into a solid prone and supported position, and then adding on top of that some training on bullet drop and wind compensation (which training I don't have, and can only take guesses about). But it is cool to know that the human potential in that regard is about twice what I had imagined it to be, given proper training. The thing is, though, that you are making my point better than I was making it, i.e., that the .308 is able to deliver a deadly payload out to the human potential of accuracy, which means that the main advantage of the .50 over the .308 must be its destructive effect, and it's ability to defeat barriers like walls and such.
Incidentally, I have a 7.62 NATO rifle (Steyr SSG Police Sniper Rifle) with which I can put quarter inch groups on a target at 100 yards from a supported position, and I don't imagine that a .50 can do much better than that. The .50 BMG has less bullet drop, but does it buck the wind any better than a good .308 round?
The Real Hawkeye
June 1, 2006, 08:04 AM
Both. Longer range, penetrates light armor and other barriers, and is effective in destroying some vehicles and equipment.But, LAK, is that longer range it's mere mechanical potential, or is it something a trained sniper can actually take full advantage of with aimed fire at human targets? Does the innate ability of the .308 to deliver a deadly payload accurately at distance outstrip the human potential? If so, then there is no need for anything with a longer potential range, other than for improved ability to destroy objects and defeat barriers, which goes back to my original question.
Double Naught Spy
June 1, 2006, 09:02 AM
Hawkeye, what is it that you are trying to ascertain? Everything I have read says soldiers are happy to have a .50 BMG SACR, be it the 82A1 or newer M107.
From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m107.htm
Army snipers deliver precision fire against enemy targets that are outside a rifleman's limitations of range, size, location, mobility and visibility. The M107 is derived from the M82A1 commercial version of the weapon that is manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Inc. of Murfreesboro, TN. It can defeat materiel targets located at distances beyond the range of the standard M24 7.62mm Sniper Weapon System, Galeazzi said. In the hands of a trained sniper, the M107 can surgically take out strategic targets while minimizing collateral damage. It is capable of hitting personnel targets as far away as 1500 meters and materiel targets out to 2000 meters.
So yes, it is something a trained sniper can use quite well to take advantage of soft targets like humans at distance, much greater distance than a .308 and still have plenty of kinetic energy to deal with hard targets even further.
Well, just how much further can a .50 BMG go and still do the job? Let's see. The current longest sniper shot on record and apparently confirmed was by a Canadian sniper team with an American tagging along. It was 2430 meters, or 1.5 miles. The team used a .50 cal McMillen. You can find several threads on THR that discuss it.
How many people does the military have who can actually take advantage of the flatter trajectory and longer range of the 50 BMG over the 308?
For example, I can shoot OK with a 308 out to about 300 yds. Beyond 300 yds, I dont think it would matter what I was shooting with, I probably am not going to hit anything. The 308 would still be effective at 300 yds, so there would be no advantage to me having a 50 bmg.
It does not matter how many people the military has to use the platform. It is superior at longer ranges, no doubt about it. Actually, the military is fielding more and more teams trained in the use of the SACR as part of sniper training according to various military rags like Army Times. There probably will never be huge numbers of the teams as it is a "SPECIAL" Application Scoped Rifle and not a COMMON Application Scoped Rifle. The teams with 308s, 50s, and even 5.56 marksmen do shoot beyond 300 yards even if you don't.
My feeling is that the design of the .50BMG was focused on heavy machine gun use. My totally uninformed opinion is that the 50 sees more use on ordinance than anything else.
What the round was desinged for really isn't material given it was in the Browning Machine Gun early in the last century. Things have been improved since then, refinements really. The round is effective as a precision round out of the right platform. As such, the original design or intent isn't material here.
The .50 in the SACR may or may not see more application against harder targets than people, or ordnance. That is still hugely significant if you and your little group of recon folks is out and about on foot and find a light APC, pickup truck with bad guys, or other technical in your pursuit and you simply kill it with a single API round from your .50 SACR sniper team. War isn't just about killing the opposition, but stopping the opposition from being able to kill you.
The Barrett M82 is not known for notable accuracy, it is generally conceded to be a 2 MOA + rifle. With the payload projectiles, it is still an effective anti-material rifle.
No, but the folks at Barrett have the M107 at 1 MOA and the folks at Tiger Valley in Waco claim the M82A1 improve after 2000 rounds or so to down closer to 1.5 MOA. Mine ain't there yet. I have managed hitting a human silhouette at 1000 yards at their facility and it took a few rounds to do it, but then again it was only my 2nd and last day of Barrett training. I wasn't using sniper or match ammo (nope, using Talon remanufactured), didn't have a high quality sniper scope (Tasco Super Sniper), and was still within the first 600 rounds of my rifle. If a newbie like me can do it with margin training and less than precise gear, imagine what a professional can do!
From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m107.htm
Army snipers deliver precision fire against enemy targets that are outside a rifleman's limitations of range, size, location, mobility and visibility. The M107 is derived from the M82A1 commercial version of the weapon that is manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Inc. of Murfreesboro, TN. It can defeat materiel targets located at distances beyond the range of the standard M24 7.62mm Sniper Weapon System, Galeazzi said. In the hands of a trained sniper, the M107 can surgically take out strategic targets while minimizing collateral damage. It is capable of hitting personnel targets as far away as 1500 meters and materiel targets out to 2000 meters.
So yes, it is something a trained sniper can use quite well to take advantage of soft targets like humans at distance, much greater distance than a .308 and still have plenty of kinetic energy to deal with hard targets even further.
Well, just how much further can a .50 BMG go and still do the job? Let's see. The current longest sniper shot on record and apparently confirmed was by a Canadian sniper team with an American tagging along. It was 2430 meters, or 1.5 miles. The team used a .50 cal McMillen. You can find several threads on THR that discuss it.
How many people does the military have who can actually take advantage of the flatter trajectory and longer range of the 50 BMG over the 308?
For example, I can shoot OK with a 308 out to about 300 yds. Beyond 300 yds, I dont think it would matter what I was shooting with, I probably am not going to hit anything. The 308 would still be effective at 300 yds, so there would be no advantage to me having a 50 bmg.
It does not matter how many people the military has to use the platform. It is superior at longer ranges, no doubt about it. Actually, the military is fielding more and more teams trained in the use of the SACR as part of sniper training according to various military rags like Army Times. There probably will never be huge numbers of the teams as it is a "SPECIAL" Application Scoped Rifle and not a COMMON Application Scoped Rifle. The teams with 308s, 50s, and even 5.56 marksmen do shoot beyond 300 yards even if you don't.
My feeling is that the design of the .50BMG was focused on heavy machine gun use. My totally uninformed opinion is that the 50 sees more use on ordinance than anything else.
What the round was desinged for really isn't material given it was in the Browning Machine Gun early in the last century. Things have been improved since then, refinements really. The round is effective as a precision round out of the right platform. As such, the original design or intent isn't material here.
The .50 in the SACR may or may not see more application against harder targets than people, or ordnance. That is still hugely significant if you and your little group of recon folks is out and about on foot and find a light APC, pickup truck with bad guys, or other technical in your pursuit and you simply kill it with a single API round from your .50 SACR sniper team. War isn't just about killing the opposition, but stopping the opposition from being able to kill you.
The Barrett M82 is not known for notable accuracy, it is generally conceded to be a 2 MOA + rifle. With the payload projectiles, it is still an effective anti-material rifle.
No, but the folks at Barrett have the M107 at 1 MOA and the folks at Tiger Valley in Waco claim the M82A1 improve after 2000 rounds or so to down closer to 1.5 MOA. Mine ain't there yet. I have managed hitting a human silhouette at 1000 yards at their facility and it took a few rounds to do it, but then again it was only my 2nd and last day of Barrett training. I wasn't using sniper or match ammo (nope, using Talon remanufactured), didn't have a high quality sniper scope (Tasco Super Sniper), and was still within the first 600 rounds of my rifle. If a newbie like me can do it with margin training and less than precise gear, imagine what a professional can do!
david_the_greek
June 1, 2006, 09:17 AM
well I don't think that its completely fair to compare the round as people have. 308 is great for us two legged critters. 50 is as well but I doubt that military snipers use the 50 primarily against infantry. Vehicles is what is all about as far as I have been informed. Thats not to say some SOB behind a wall hasn't been reamed through with a barett. those round and the rifles just seem to darn heavy to be put to use against individuals. but heck we got some creative guys over there who I'm sure are turning enemy combatants into canoes as they hide behind what they deem cover. that 50 reinforces the cover vs conceilment idea
The Real Hawkeye
June 1, 2006, 09:35 AM
Hawkeye, what is it that you are trying to ascertain?I didn't intend for my questions to seem cryptic. I thought that they were clearly stated. I am interested in knowing if the primary use of the .50 is intended to be hard targets or people targets. If people, does the extended actual potential range of the round get translated into a real world practical range advantage over the .308, i.e., are there humans who can reliably strike human targets at longer distances with the .50 than other equally skilled humans can do with the .308? The quote you provided tends to indicate that the .50s primary advantage is against hard targets. Is that the point you intended to make?
Limeyfellow
June 1, 2006, 09:46 AM
In WW2 most nations had the minimum range they practiced at set about 300 yards with iron sights and most their rounds are comparable to .308's range and stopping power so it should be capable to go higher. Its just there is rarely ranges nowadays to practice at these distances.
Zak Smith
June 1, 2006, 12:15 PM
Incidentally, I have a 7.62 NATO rifle (Steyr SSG Police Sniper Rifle) with which I can put quarter inch groups on a target at 100 yards from a supported position, and I don't imagine that a .50 can do much better than that. The .50 BMG has less bullet drop, but does it buck the wind any better than a good .308 round?
At long range (say beyond 400 yards with a 308), the crux of making hits is generally wind estimation. It's a lot more important than having a 1/4 MOA or 1/2 MOA rifle.
As for wind.. YES, it has both less drop and a lot less wind than 308.
Here's a comparison of the standard M118LR 308 load and two common 50BMG loads
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 1800 | YARDS
750gr AMAX 1.050 2660 > -0.00 -2.18 2.49 8.01 14.14 20.88 28.28 36.40 45.35 55.21 | drop (moa)
647gr M33 Barrett 0.701 2900 > -0.00 -1.86 2.21 7.30 13.21 20.01 27.85 36.93 47.48 59.76 | drop (moa)
M118LR 308 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 -2.51 2.99 10.16 19.04 30.07 43.79 60.64 80.82 104.33 | drop (moa)
750gr AMAX 1.050 2660 > 0.00 1.18 4.84 11.22 20.57 33.17 49.33 69.39 93.67 122.52 | wind (inches)
647gr M33 Barrett 0.701 2900 > 0.00 1.58 6.59 15.48 28.81 47.23 71.46 102.26 140.36 186.25 | wind (inches)
M118LR 308 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 2.59 11.03 26.56 50.74 85.19 130.88 187.10 252.07 324.49 | wind (inches)
750gr AMAX 1.050 2660 > 2660 2509 2363 2222 2086 1955 1829 1709 1596 1490 | velocity (fps)
647gr M33 Barrett 0.701 2900 > 2900 2664 2440 2227 2024 1833 1656 1493 1349 1226 | velocity (fps)
M118LR 308 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2337 2046 1778 1532 1323 1160 1050 974 916 | velocity (fps)
At long range (say beyond 400 yards with a 308), the crux of making hits is generally wind estimation. It's a lot more important than having a 1/4 MOA or 1/2 MOA rifle.
As for wind.. YES, it has both less drop and a lot less wind than 308.
Here's a comparison of the standard M118LR 308 load and two common 50BMG loads
_Bullet_ _BC_ _MV_ 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 1800 | YARDS
750gr AMAX 1.050 2660 > -0.00 -2.18 2.49 8.01 14.14 20.88 28.28 36.40 45.35 55.21 | drop (moa)
647gr M33 Barrett 0.701 2900 > -0.00 -1.86 2.21 7.30 13.21 20.01 27.85 36.93 47.48 59.76 | drop (moa)
M118LR 308 0.51* 2650 > -0.00 -2.51 2.99 10.16 19.04 30.07 43.79 60.64 80.82 104.33 | drop (moa)
750gr AMAX 1.050 2660 > 0.00 1.18 4.84 11.22 20.57 33.17 49.33 69.39 93.67 122.52 | wind (inches)
647gr M33 Barrett 0.701 2900 > 0.00 1.58 6.59 15.48 28.81 47.23 71.46 102.26 140.36 186.25 | wind (inches)
M118LR 308 0.51* 2650 > 0.00 2.59 11.03 26.56 50.74 85.19 130.88 187.10 252.07 324.49 | wind (inches)
750gr AMAX 1.050 2660 > 2660 2509 2363 2222 2086 1955 1829 1709 1596 1490 | velocity (fps)
647gr M33 Barrett 0.701 2900 > 2900 2664 2440 2227 2024 1833 1656 1493 1349 1226 | velocity (fps)
M118LR 308 0.51* 2650 > 2650 2337 2046 1778 1532 1323 1160 1050 974 916 | velocity (fps)
slzy
June 1, 2006, 12:26 PM
per Plasters book,the biggest difference between a police sniper and the military,is the police Must hit their target. a military sniper can be content with striking fear, slowing movement down, etc. the .50 would accomplish this over a larger area.
50 Shooter
June 1, 2006, 03:59 PM
Hey Zak, am I the only one that has a problem with that table?
I think Barrett is hyping their ammo, where did you find the table for their stuff? AMAX will out shoot M33 ball any day of the week and twice on Sunday without even trying. The tables that I have show a 212" drop at 1000 for AMAX and 249" for M33 ball.
1 MOA from a Barrett? Not likely unless it's been worked on alot. The trigger and action just don't make for an accurate platform out of the box. 2 MOA or more is the norm and as a sniper rifle that's not acceptable. At 1000 yards that's 20" on a good day and doesn't factor in all the other variables. I've shot my .50 in high wind and have seen the bullets get blown as much as 4 feet at 1000 yards. I've also put hits on a 2'x3' target at 1 mile, this was with no wind (perfect conditions) using hand loaded AMAX. I tried with hand loaded AP and ball ammo but the stuff just doesn't cut it at that range.
Why the Military chose the M82 as a long range "sniper" rifle is beyond me, there are more accurate .50's out there. Back to the original question, yes the .50 will out range the .308. Mk211 Mod 0 (Raufoss) or M903 SLAP is devastating to light armor or other targets of opportunity within the .50's capability.
I think Barrett is hyping their ammo, where did you find the table for their stuff? AMAX will out shoot M33 ball any day of the week and twice on Sunday without even trying. The tables that I have show a 212" drop at 1000 for AMAX and 249" for M33 ball.
1 MOA from a Barrett? Not likely unless it's been worked on alot. The trigger and action just don't make for an accurate platform out of the box. 2 MOA or more is the norm and as a sniper rifle that's not acceptable. At 1000 yards that's 20" on a good day and doesn't factor in all the other variables. I've shot my .50 in high wind and have seen the bullets get blown as much as 4 feet at 1000 yards. I've also put hits on a 2'x3' target at 1 mile, this was with no wind (perfect conditions) using hand loaded AMAX. I tried with hand loaded AP and ball ammo but the stuff just doesn't cut it at that range.
Why the Military chose the M82 as a long range "sniper" rifle is beyond me, there are more accurate .50's out there. Back to the original question, yes the .50 will out range the .308. Mk211 Mod 0 (Raufoss) or M903 SLAP is devastating to light armor or other targets of opportunity within the .50's capability.
Zak Smith
June 1, 2006, 04:06 PM
50S,
I used published BCs, chrono'd MVs from my rifle, and 3000' density altitude for that table. Any difference will be somewhere in those parameters - probably MV.
Also see http://www.chuckhawks.com/50BMG.htm for corroboration
-z
I used published BCs, chrono'd MVs from my rifle, and 3000' density altitude for that table. Any difference will be somewhere in those parameters - probably MV.
Also see http://www.chuckhawks.com/50BMG.htm for corroboration
-z
taliv
June 1, 2006, 04:36 PM
zak's numbers are very close to the card i use even though we're starting from a different MV and apparently have a different zero (i'm guessing his is 300yd) and published BC use the G1 which is teh bogus. although they're not labeled, i'm assuming his numbers are MOA, where 50s is thinking inches
also,
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40677&stc=1&d=1149194037
also,
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40677&stc=1&d=1149194037
50 Shooter
June 1, 2006, 05:23 PM
I was referring to M33 ball, the BC your chart shows for AMAX is .412 when Hornady shows it as 1.05 (calc'd) and a MV of 2800 fps from a 36" bbl. M33 ball at best has a BC of .6 and a standard MV of 2900 fps depending on bbl length.
I just can't see how a pos round like the M33 is shooting flatter then a match grade AMAX.
I just can't see how a pos round like the M33 is shooting flatter then a match grade AMAX.
taliv
June 1, 2006, 05:57 PM
but hornady amax isn't actually a BC of 1.05. they get that by using a G1 drag model, which is for flat-based, round nosed bullets. if you use a G5 or G7 drag (boat tail and VLD) as appropriate you get numbers that are more likely to reflect reality
MTMilitiaman
June 1, 2006, 06:32 PM
It is still much more ballistically streamlined and efficent.
My brother just got an Armalite AR-50 and had a Nightforce NXS 8-32 put on it. My dad has some Hornady Amaxs loaded up and I put ten of them down range yesterday. I had a couple of old sleds I found buried in the woodshed. I used them as targets because they are cheap, light, and appropriately sized. I measured them at 46" because my primary interest was to get a general idea of how far the area we wanted to shoot was. The closest sled, by my calculations was just under 4 MOA, which worked out to about 1200 yards by my estimation. This is my second time shooting the rifle, and the first time actually doing it at a specific target at a known (aprox) range, but by the end of the afternoon, I had watched my shots get closer and closer until I was confident I had hit it. The other target is out in the 1800 to 2000 yard range, by my estimation, but I have little doubt in my mind that given a little practice, consistant hits out to at least 1200 yards should be possible even for a relative beginner and with the proper dedication, I don't really think 2000 yards is out of the question.
My brother just got an Armalite AR-50 and had a Nightforce NXS 8-32 put on it. My dad has some Hornady Amaxs loaded up and I put ten of them down range yesterday. I had a couple of old sleds I found buried in the woodshed. I used them as targets because they are cheap, light, and appropriately sized. I measured them at 46" because my primary interest was to get a general idea of how far the area we wanted to shoot was. The closest sled, by my calculations was just under 4 MOA, which worked out to about 1200 yards by my estimation. This is my second time shooting the rifle, and the first time actually doing it at a specific target at a known (aprox) range, but by the end of the afternoon, I had watched my shots get closer and closer until I was confident I had hit it. The other target is out in the 1800 to 2000 yard range, by my estimation, but I have little doubt in my mind that given a little practice, consistant hits out to at least 1200 yards should be possible even for a relative beginner and with the proper dedication, I don't really think 2000 yards is out of the question.
Preacherman
June 1, 2006, 07:33 PM
The longest sniper shot on record was in Afghanistan by a Canadian sniper using a .50 BMG rifle, at over 2,500 meters - against a human target. He needed two sighting shots before the third one took out the enemy. No .308 could even begin to match that sort of long-range performance.
LAK
June 3, 2006, 09:15 AM
What Preacherman said.
The Real Hawkeyeis that longer range it's mere mechanical potential, or is it something a trained sniper can actually take full advantage of with aimed fire at human targets? Does the innate ability of the .308 to deliver a deadly payload accurately at distance outstrip the human potential? If so, then there is no need for anything with a longer potential range, other than for improved ability to destroy objects and defeat barriers, which goes back to my original question.
The .50, or more specifically .50 caliber bullets of particular design, shape and weight, have very high ballistic coefficients. This coupled with higher weight makes them more stable and potentially very accurate at very long ranges. The .308 literally runs out of steam and becomes unstable before the .50.
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The Real Hawkeyeis that longer range it's mere mechanical potential, or is it something a trained sniper can actually take full advantage of with aimed fire at human targets? Does the innate ability of the .308 to deliver a deadly payload accurately at distance outstrip the human potential? If so, then there is no need for anything with a longer potential range, other than for improved ability to destroy objects and defeat barriers, which goes back to my original question.
The .50, or more specifically .50 caliber bullets of particular design, shape and weight, have very high ballistic coefficients. This coupled with higher weight makes them more stable and potentially very accurate at very long ranges. The .308 literally runs out of steam and becomes unstable before the .50.
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http://ssunitedstates.org
Still 2 Many Choices!?
June 3, 2006, 11:30 AM
.308 against a light APC; wait until APC stops, somebody dismounts, and then take shots...
.50 against a light APC; shoot APC UNTIL IT STOPS, wait till somebody dismounts, then shoot them too:evil: !!
I bet we have some guys on over watch in Iraq that are using the .50 to great effect against both material and personnel, and are well out of harms way while doing it:cool: !
.50 against a light APC; shoot APC UNTIL IT STOPS, wait till somebody dismounts, then shoot them too:evil: !!
I bet we have some guys on over watch in Iraq that are using the .50 to great effect against both material and personnel, and are well out of harms way while doing it:cool: !
C-grunt
June 3, 2006, 04:23 PM
When I was in Iraq, we were given the job of dropping the snipers off and stay in the area incase something happened. They would usually carry one Barrett to use against vehicles. They did shoot one car while we were there and it definitely needed a new engine.
For people though, they would always use the M24. It was a more accurate rifle, and the longest shot they took was, I think, about 500 meters. At that distance the .308 did the job. The insurgent was a side profile and the round went through his arm, through his torso (about two inches below the ribcage), and through his other arm. IMHO thats plenty of power.
For people though, they would always use the M24. It was a more accurate rifle, and the longest shot they took was, I think, about 500 meters. At that distance the .308 did the job. The insurgent was a side profile and the round went through his arm, through his torso (about two inches below the ribcage), and through his other arm. IMHO thats plenty of power.
The Real Hawkeye
June 3, 2006, 08:32 PM
When I was in Iraq, we were given the job of dropping the snipers off and stay in the area incase something happened. They would usually carry one Barrett to use against vehicles. They did shoot one car while we were there and it definitely needed a new engine.
For people though, they would always use the M24. It was a more accurate rifle, and the longest shot they took was, I think, about 500 meters. At that distance the .308 did the job. The insurgent was a side profile and the round went through his arm, through his torso (about two inches below the ribcage), and through his other arm. IMHO thats plenty of power.Thanks for the reply. It goes a long way towards answering my question.
For people though, they would always use the M24. It was a more accurate rifle, and the longest shot they took was, I think, about 500 meters. At that distance the .308 did the job. The insurgent was a side profile and the round went through his arm, through his torso (about two inches below the ribcage), and through his other arm. IMHO thats plenty of power.Thanks for the reply. It goes a long way towards answering my question.
chaingunner
June 3, 2006, 08:41 PM
In the (surface! not specwar) Navy, our primary use for .50 BMG is against hard targets, namely, lowslow fliers and small to medium sized surface targets.
I imagine that the devildogs we brought to the middle east on our last deployment used it primarily against hard targets as well...they had plenty of weapons chambered in .223 and .308 for use against living targets, after all.
I imagine that the devildogs we brought to the middle east on our last deployment used it primarily against hard targets as well...they had plenty of weapons chambered in .223 and .308 for use against living targets, after all.
Kymasabe
June 3, 2006, 08:52 PM
Did anyone see the Barrett .50 on Discover Channels FutureWeapons show? They had their dweeb host shooting a scoped Barrett at targets set at 1000 yards. Was hitting a one-square-foot painted square on a steel plate with no problem and shot at a makeshift concrete block wall and was shooting thru the blocks. I sure wouldn't want to be down-range of one of those things.
The Real Hawkeye
June 3, 2006, 08:57 PM
Did anyone see the Barrett .50 on Discover Channels FutureWeapons show? They had their dweeb host shooting a scoped Barrett at targets set at 1000 yards. Was hitting a one-square-foot painted square on a steel plate with no problem and shot at a makeshift concrete block wall and was shooting thru the blocks. I sure wouldn't want to be down-range of one of those things.No, not unless you're in an M1 Abrams.
Still 2 Many Choices!?
June 4, 2006, 01:12 PM
The make-shift wall of cinder blocks was not mortared together, so of course the .50 won that fight:scrutiny: ! I especially like the way the played up the terrorism part by saying these are the types of walls that insurgents are hiding behind in Iraq. They aren't hiding behing non-mortared brick walls or we could just push the walls over on them, and save the .50 ammo for the ma dueces:banghead::rolleyes: !!
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