[Partisan Ranger]

I'm probably going to go for a 9 mm autoloader for concealed carry for my first hand gun purchase. One thing I keep wondering with DAO action in Glocks, Kahr Arms, etc. is walking around with a round in the chamber and no safety. Now the gun manufacturers always sell that as a plus, which I can see. But isn't it inherently risky to be walking around with a round in the chamber?

Does anybody carry one of these guns WITHOUT a round in the chamber? Would it be completely useless in a self-defense situation to have to rack the gun before firing?

PR

[honocor]

If you pratice chambering a round when you draw, you can get good at it. It takes a lots of pratice, and you have to pratice it for each position you carry in. With the glocks and other DAO triggers, they have a stout trigger pull, which in turn makes it difficult to snag it and have it accidently go off. Unless you are totally not paying attention, in which case, you don't need to be carring a firearm. Also, use a holster, adds to the safety, and if you get the right one, comfort.

[Hkmp5sd]

Actually, it is more dangerous to walk around without a round in the chamber. When drawing a gun in self-defense, you may not have time to chamber a round.

If you follow the safety procedures, primarily the one about not putting your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot, the gun is perfectly safe. There is essentially no difference between the first shot with a Glock and the first shot with a revolver. Neither have manual safeties and both only fire if you pull the trigger.

Guns like the Glock should be carried in a holster that encloses the trigger to ensure something other than your finger doesn't pull the trigger.

[ElAlumno]

and it presents no problem. As a matter of fact tens of thousands of LEO do it all the time with no problem.

My advice would be to make sure you get a good holster.

[George Hill]

Your going to want to play with your new toy once you get it.
Get the feel for it...
Caress it...
Take pictures of it...

Just remember one thing.

KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER!

If you can remember that, then you will be fine.
If you can't remember that, then you should not have any gun more powerful than a water pistol.

[Partisan Ranger]

I remember the rather self-evident safety rule from my Basic Pistol class at NRA - don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to shoot....it seemed like the first three hours of the class were the 3 essential safety rules! Which was right, because I haven't forgotten them!

I was mainly concerned with the small possibility of catching the trigger on something at the moment of truth and blasting my butt off instead of shooting the bad guy.

[Graystar]

This is a highly opinionated area of discussion. Personally, I feel that if you're not going to carry with one in the pipe, you should carry a very heavy gun because hitting the bad guy with it is all you're going to have time for.

That's why I like Glocks for carry. No switches to worry about. Just pull it out and pull the trigger.

[treeprof]

Just get a good holster, fitted for your gun. That'll keep junk out of the trigger guard while you carry, and ensure that you don't snag the trigger while holstering. And then carry chambered. If you need your gun, your support side hand may well be engaged in something else (defensive) that would preclude you from manually cycling the slide to chamber a round. Or, you might be wounded in one hand/arm before you even had a chance to draw. Or, one arm could be pinned to your side. Or, you might need to fire from a close retention position, from which cycling the slide would be very awkward. Or, ....

You get the picture. The desire to carry a holstered gun on an empty chamber is a mental problem you can ovecome w/training, logic and the right carry gear.

[Partisan Ranger]

Thanks for the information everyone. I went to a gun show in Dale City VA last year and one of the dealers there poo-pooed carrying a Glock because of the lack of safety features.

But I like the philosophy of your finger being the safety. If you are obeying the 3 cardinal NRA laws of gun safety, there is no problem.

[Handy]

Keeping your finger off the trigger is a good idea and all, but the majority of your muscle memory training is pulling the trigger, which goes against that.

If you're carrying a Glock, at least put the 8 lbs. NY 1 trigger in it. This also gets rid of the fragile trigger spring.

Better yet, buy a high quality true DAO or DA/SA, like a Sig 239. The DA trigger is no impediment to decent defensive shooting, but is an impediment to screwing up and shooting yourself.

The standard Glock trigger is 5.5 lbs. Great for targets, bad for margin of error. And manual safeties are something extra to deal with. But a heavier DA trigger is a little extra safety and requires nothing more than a trigger pull to fire.

[Mike Irwin]

One of the things I like about the Kahrs is the long, relatively heavy trigger pull. It's really more double-action revolver like than semi-auto like.

[bountyhunter]

"There is essentially no difference between the first shot with a Glock and the first shot with a revolver. Neither have manual safeties and both only fire if you pull the trigger."

Except the typical DA pull on a revolver is about 12 - 15 pounds, and the typical Glock is about 6 - 8.

[hksw]

Unchambered is how the Isrealis carry.

[Handy]

I guess I didn't weigh in on the second part of the question.

You can carry chamber unloaded and load an auto very quickly. But why would you?

A handgun is designed to be drawn, aimed and fired one handed (and possibly even reloaded one handed). Why give up that huge advantage because the trigger is too light? Your off hand is useful for lots of things during a fight, making your weapon ready to fire shouldn't have to be one of them.

If your gun isn't safe enough with a round under the hammer, it's the wrong gun.

If you get yourself killed because your left arm was too engaged with a steering wheel, your infant, a dog leash, whatever; you're a fool.

[cool45auto]

I posted about this subject not too long ago. I got some good responses and a good link. It was an interesting read. I personally don't see the use in having a gun without a round in the chamber but I guess you need to carry in whatever way you're comfortable.

[Graystar]

Guns like the Glock should be carried in a holster that encloses the trigger to ensure something other than your finger doesn't pull the trigger.
All guns should be carried with their trigger enclosed. At the very least, you don't want something catching the trigger and yanking the gun out of the holster.

Other than competition holsters, are there really *any* holsters out there, made for everyday carry, that don't fully cover the trigger of the gun?

With a Glock, the holsters to avoid are those that have snap straps that up and around the end of the slide. It's those ridged straps that get caught on the trigger as you're holstering and can cause a negligent discharge.

[Hkmp5sd]

I was actually referring to holster vs. no holster. I frequently carry a handgun in a pocket. The heavy trigger pull of a revolver or the manual safety on an autoloader makes that someone less dangerous than carrying a Glock without a holster. I never carry my G17 or G27 without them being holstered.

[Graystar]

Why give up that huge advantage because the trigger is too light?
I don't understand this light trigger thing. the NY trigger certainly didn't keep Amadou Diallo from getting shot at 41 times. I personally feel that a heavy trigger does nothing to increase the safety of the gun. I feel a heavy trigger will only affect your accuracy (Diallo was only hit 19 times from close range.)

I don't like safeties, I don't like heavy triggers, I don't like anything that give any impression whatsoever that your gun is "safer"...because it simply isn't. It is a gun. It is dangerous. Only thoughtful, responsible behavior will keep you safe from "accidents". Doesn't matter what kind of gun you carry.

I think the stock 5.5 lb trigger pull is just fine.

Edit: I have not been able to confirm that the guns used in the Diallo had heavy triggers. Only one of the guns used was a Glock, and only 5 rounds were fired from it. I have not been discovered the trigger weight of that Glock.

[Graystar]

I was actually referring to holster vs. no holster.
Ah. Got it ;)

[Zundfolge]

I went to a gun show in Dale City VA last year and one of the dealers there poo-pooed carrying a Glock because of the lack of safety features.

Lack of safety features on a Glock?? :confused:

I bet this guy thinks Volvos are dangerous too :rolleyes:


I'm sure you've heard all the stories about "accidental" discharges by police with their Glocks, but I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of them are because of poor training.

[Handy]

Glock people love to talk about safety features.

Everyone realizes that Glocks have the same internal safety features as every other modern gun, right?



Graystar,

Your post is interesting in that you don't seem to feel that trigger weight and ADs have any connection. So, how light is acceptable? 4 lbs., 2, 5 oz.? Given the Glock design, there is little reason that it can't be set to go off when breathed on, so what's YOUR limit?

Also, have you ever shot a NY1 trigger? (Nope) The popular myth that a heavier trigger is always detrimental to accuracy is just that. The NY1 trigger is a crisp 8 lbs., and does nothing to combat shooting. Same with a decent DA trigger at combat ranges, under stress.

Blaming missed police shots on the trigger rather than the shooter is the kind of thinking they do down at HCI. The cops missed, not they're trigger.

[New_comer]

If you want to carry condition 3, you should consider getting a snub revolver instead, empty chamber under hammer.

You still get four to five rounds. If needed, just click away.

For semi's, my personal carry rules are 1) gun always chambered; 2) C & L for SA only; 3) cond2 for DA, and 4)always IN A GOOD HOLSTER.

Though it's possible to practice a quick draw, rack and fire, but I never did find time to do it. I've seen our club prexy do it one time, and it's quite fast. He also showed several techniques in racking with the shooting arm only, in case the racking arm gets disabled, so it could be done.

The choice of firearm becomes critical; novaks are out. Must be large post-type rear sights, you should be able to snag it forcefully enough against a shoe, a fold in the pants, the belt, etc, to chamber a round. But as I said, that takes a lot of practice. ;) :D

[Gerald McDonald]

There are a few holsters designed for 1911's and BHP's that have an exposed trigger and a keeper strap between the hammer and slide. El Paso Saddlery makes several (tom threepersons,austin and a crossdraw) along with a few other companys. I saw 3 leo's out in west Texas wearing something like the threepersons last year. One was carved floral that was a beaut. I think Wolf Ears or maybe Kirkpatrick made one too. Really more of a field holster, but they are pretty secure but only for single action or revolver carry.
Gerald

[Graystar]

Glock people love to talk about safety features. Everyone realizes that Glocks have the same internal safety features as every other modern gun, right?

Graystar,

Your post is interesting in that you don't seem to feel that trigger weight and ADs have any connection. So, how light is acceptable? 4 lbs., 2, 5 oz.? Given the Glock design, there is little reason that it can't be set to go off when breathed on, so what's YOUR limit?

Also, have you ever shot a NY1 trigger? (Nope) The popular myth that a heavier trigger is always detrimental to accuracy is just that. The NY1 trigger is a crisp 8 lbs., and does nothing to combat shooting. Same with a decent DA trigger at combat ranges, under stress.

Blaming missed police shots on the trigger rather than the shooter is the kind of thinking they do down at HCI. The cops missed, not they're trigger.
Handy,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought another safety feature of the Glock was that it was only 70% cocked, with the final drawing of the striker occuring with the trigger pull. I thought the idea here was that even if the all the safety features failed, the striker doesn't have enough force to set off a round. This is a feature that no hammer design has. Unless, I'm wrong about that.

What can I say about someone who's trying to jam his gun into his holster while the trigger is hung up on something? I don't want to go so far as to say they deserve what happens...but they certainly earned whatever happens. When I carried I was always thoughtful when holstering and unholstering. The only thing that ever touched my trigger was my finger. That said, as I said before, I think the stock trigger is fine. I have a 1911 with a 4 lb trigger. To me that feels just about perfect. I would be comfortable with a 2 lb trigger. I think that you should be able to clearly feel the resistance of the trigger before the trigger starts moving. Any lighter than that is probably risky. But that's just my own personal feelings.

No, I've never shot a Glock with the 8 lb trigger. I can only relay this experience. A few years ago I got my girlfriend (at the time) a S&W revolver for personal protection. She practiced regularly with it for about a year but she just couldn't seem to shoot well with it. It's heavy DA pull was too much for her small hands. So I got her a Glock 33. She was instantly better. With the revolver she was lucky to hit an 11" x 8.5" sheet at 7 yards. With the Glock she was shooting for bullseyes at 15 yards. When shooting the gun, I personally felt that the revolver's DA pull was very detrimental to accuracy. She still carries the Glock today.

I don't appreciate my comments being lumped with the likes of HCI. That certainly is NOT like their thinking. Those types of organizations are the ones that lobby for heavy triggers in order to prevent Diallo type incidents (which it wouldn't.) That said, you were right that I unjustly blamed the trigger. Only one Glock was used in the shooting and only 5 rounds were fired from it. I don't know the trigger pull of that Glock nor of the other guns used.

But let me pose the reverse to you...how heavy a trigger do you think is useable? 10 lbs? 15 lbs? 20 lbs? I mean, if accuracy isn't affected why not put 15 lbs triggers on all guns?

[Handy]

Graystar,

Most combat guns with hammers are only 0% cocked. That's what a DA gun is. Anything you can do with a striker, you can do with a hammer. The USP LEM has a partially cocked mainspring, like the Glock. The Glock's not very compressed mainspring isn't unusual, especially if you consider it a type of DA. So does that mean that a Glock has only 30% of the safety feature a DA pistol has? (Obviously not.)

Your 4lbs. (or 2lbs.) 1911 trigger is guarded by a safety for holstering, running etc. I was really asking you how light a safetyless gun should be. So I'll ask again- how light is "safe" for a Glock trigger?

The HCI comment was just to underline that you were blaming a mechanical device for a human failure. "It wasn't the shooters fault, it was his trigger." Which is strange, because you're taking the opposite view when it comes to NDs.

As far as maximum DA pull weight, that can vary by design and shooter, but most literature seems to agree that a 12 lbs. DA pull is controllable enough. I would favor 10 lbs., which is enough resistance that the gun can still be stuck in a waistband or pocket, but is even smoother. A good Sig 22X trigger, or that of the Beretta 92D are good examples.

Obviously, there is a middle ground, and it's somewhere between 1 lbs. and 25 lbs. Up to 1985, it was somewhere between 9 lbs. and 15 lbs. Then all of a sudden 5 lbs. was acceptable. Everyone must have just gotten smarter and safer that year.;)

So, why not 15 lbs. triggers on all guns? Like I just outlined, there used to be a standard. Maybe not a fixed number, but not as light as Glock and its immitators. Personally, I think the public duped itself with talk of trigger safeties and the rules of gun handling into accepting something of marginal safety in favor of shooting ease, of all things. I think many PDs regret that decision. But there isn't an International pistol design safety council to advise or enforce, which is why anything goes.


Finally, I have no idea what kind of trigger your girlfriend's revolver had. But the pull weight itself is only one facet of trigger action. DA triggers don't have a definite let off point, Glocks do, which makes staging easy and accurate. In use, Glock is really a two stage SA trigger: you pull out the slack, then click through the sear release. Even with a heavy NY2 trigger, that's going to be an advantage over even a slightly lighter revolver trigger.

[Graystar]

Handy,

I can technically see how your HCI comment fits, but still... The human failing that HCI, and all those other fanatical groups, is worked up about is the idea that, for no reason whatsoever, law abiding citizens would start killing each other if given guns. That's a far cry from strictly physio-mechanical issue of the aim point shifting because of a heavy trigger pull, which is what I'm talking about. But moving on... :)

My 2lbs. minimum would be for a Glock. As I said, I was always thoughful when holstering. I make sure nothing ever touches the trigger but my finger. And even then, only when it's time to pull it. It is simply an extension of a rule we already live by...finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. To me, that means fingers and everything else.

I guess our different experiences and viewpoints are just telling us different things. For example, my experience with the revolver...seeing my girlfriend instantly go from barely hitting the sheet at 7yrds to hitting bulls at 15, tell me that, in this case, it was not shooter error. It was the gun. Yes, a shooter has a responsibility to know how to shoot his gun. But the gun's design also has a responsibility to assist, not hinder, those efforts. Can someone hit bullseyes at 15 yrds with that revolver? Of course. The gun was well sighted and shot well in SA mode. But how much skill and concentration would it require in DA mode, and could that level of skill and concentration be mustered up in the few seconds she might have when an attacker is rushing her? I place a great deal of importance on hitting the target with that first shot. My experience with revolvers and DA autos tells me that a DA is detrimental to that ends. But like I said, that's just my personal experience.

As for the shift to 5 lbs...maybe, just maybe, people realized they shot more accurately with the lighter trigger? :eek:

[Handy]

As for the shift to 5 lbs...maybe, just maybe, people realized they shot more accurately with the lighter trigger?

They realized that along time before. It's called a 1911. It has a safety. So does the BHP.

A Sig also has a 5 lbs. trigger. It replaces the manual safety with a firmer INITIAL trigger pull.

Then there's the Glock and similar, which has neither.


Along those lines, I don't understand why you would put up with a the squishy Glock trigger when you could carry something like a Sig with the hammer cocked. Now that's a good trigger. And with a firing pin block, no less safe, from your point of view.


Your experience with the girlfriend shows that a lighter trigger IS more accurate, but not that a heavier trigger is not accurate enough for the initial defensive shot (which occur at close ranges).

Target accuracy is not needed with a defensive arm (but safety is). But with a DA/SA you have target capability once the hammer is cocked.

There is an incredible emphasis put on the target accuracy of defensive arms, starting with Cooper. With the introduction of the Glock, we've apparently decided that it is so important that even handling safety devices were discarded.

I can hit center mass at 5 yards with even a 20 lbs. trigger, and so can you.

[Graystar]

Handy,

You're certainly right that the Glock trigger leaves much to be desired. I put up with the trigger because I feel the Glock has the best combination of features that I feel are important. So here they are.

I have a thing against manual safeties. On one of those news shows there was a story about a jewelry store owner that was shot. He had tried to defend himself with a gun but he forgot to take the safety off. They showed the security video of him getting the drop on the bad guy...and nothing. I've heard other similar stories as well. Some might say that it was poor training, and that might be the case. But none of us know how we will act (or fail to act) is a life-threatening situation when panic might set in. With a Glock, a screw-up with a manual safety is just one less thing I don't have to worry about. And following this line of thought, I would carry any other gun ready to fire with the safety off. In this case, I feel the Glock is safer than other guns as it was meant to be carried in this fashion.

As I said before, I place great importance in striking the target on the first shot. You're right that I could probably hit center mass at 5 yards with a 20 lbs trigger. But I know that my girlfriend would not. I feel the gun should assist my effort to be accurate on the first shot. To me, this means an SA mechanism. Now, to be accurate, the Glock is a cross between SA and DA because the gun isn't fully cocked. But for my purpose it provides the same advantage as an SA mechanism. Of course, many other guns provide this same function. However, I think the Glock is technically safer simply because of its hybrid SA/DA mechanism.

The Glock is very light. A Glock 27 weighs over 7.5 oz less than a Sig P239 in .40. That's nearly half a pound. The polymer (and bigger) Sigs still weigh more than 5 oz over a Glock.

The baby Glock is easy to conceal. The three finger grip of the smallest Sig makes it one inch taller than a Glock...that one inch being in the worst spot possible, the grip. Further, by adding a +1 Pierce extension to the Glock mag, you can get 10 rounds, three fingers on the grip, the same concealability, and no increase in weight (Glock really should just include these extensions with the gun, they're so good.) It makes for an untouchable combination in concealability and capacity.

Low parts count and easy to maintain. I guess this is subjective. I find my Ruger Mark II easy to maintain too! I guess anything is easy once you know how. But I do like the simple design.

So that's why I like Glock.

[Intune]

For my own peace of mind ALL carry pistols go in a holster. No P32 stuffed in the front pocket, no Airweight jammed into the waistband. IF something can get to that exposed trigger SOMEDAY it will. One must be extremely cognizant of possible trigger obstructions (straps, thumb-breaks, shirttail, FINGER, etc) before holstering a firearm. Any firearm! You wanna flick on your 1911 safety and jam it in your holster, jam on. One of these days that safety isn't going to be set and that shirt is gonna pick that time to billow… Cocked & locked is, to me, one of the safest modes of carry; one just HAS to be careful. I believe trigger weight goes out the window when there is a foreign object inside a trigger guard and one applies the downward force necessary to retain a weapon in a holster. I've never measured the force used to fully seat my handgun into a Kramer horsehide IWB that uses friction to retain the weapon but I believe it is more than 10-15 lbs. I feel that I am rambling. My point is that all of them are safe (here comes the sixgun transfer bar, empty chamber screaming) when in a good holster, reasonably safe when drawn (if you have a good head on you shoulders) and remain reasonably safe when you go to holster it (if you're still using that good brain in your head.) There, done! :D

[Graystar]

I agree, Intune.