Winchester Value Pack .44mag?


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Deanimator
June 1, 2006, 10:35 AM
I got my 4" Model 29-2 back last night. The gunsmith squared up the forcing cone. Seems like although it was not square, as I had suspected, it was out of true in a different way. I thought that the side with the tightest gap was normal, and the other side was out of spec. with too much gap. It turned out that the side with the tightest gap was way too NARROW, while the largest gap was NORMAL. The smart money is that it came from the factory that way back in the '80s. It's probably why I got it cheap used.

I now need to test the gun to see if it still spits. I didn't find out that the gun was ready until I got to the range, so I had no ammo for it. I started to run up to Walmart to buy a box of the Value Pack .44 Mag, but thought better of it because the guy who sold me the gun, just threw on some of the magna grips with the noticeable edge to them. I figured that shooting magnums with those grips would be painful at best. I called Gander Mountain to see if they had any .44 Specials, and of course they didn't. So, I decided to punt and wait until this weekend. In the meantime, I dug up a set of the S&W target grips. I don't much care for them, but at least they won't hurt to shoot until I can buy a set of Pachmayrs.

Does anybody know how hot the Winchester .44 Mags that Walmart sells are? I'm looking for a moderate power Magnum load to test the gun with, not something to reduce fortifications. If it doesn't spit with a reasonable .44 Magnum load, I'm satisfied.

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PO2Hammer
June 1, 2006, 11:58 AM
Try google-ing winchester. They have ballistics on all their products.

azredhawk44
June 1, 2006, 12:27 PM
Winchester white box 44mags are not "light", but they are far from the heavy end of the 44mag spectrum.

Remington 180gr 44mags have very high subjective recoil for me and my redhawk, with a good sized fireball coming out the mouth. I suspect they are using Win296 powder for their load.

The Winchester Whitebox loads don't have much fire, if any, coming out of my 5.5" barrel, which indicates a fast burning powder. Due to the steep pressure climb early on, these loads won't be as powerful as a load with slower powder. They're also cheaper to put together, hence their bulk packaging and discounted price.

They should be a good test of what you are looking for.

Deanimator
June 1, 2006, 12:47 PM
The Winchester Whitebox loads don't have much fire, if any, coming out of my 5.5" barrel, which indicates a fast burning powder. Due to the steep pressure climb early on, these loads won't be as powerful as a load with slower powder. They're also cheaper to put together, hence their bulk packaging and discounted price.

They should be a good test of what you are looking for.

That's what I was hoping for.

Thanks for the information.

ATAShooter
June 1, 2006, 03:28 PM
I had bought a box of 44 mag from walmart... they were 180gr JSP Remington Part # L44MG7 . I chrono'd them: 6 rounds

1 - 1596
2 - 1632
3 - 1645
4 - 1599
5 - 1611
6 - 1653

Yes they had some " recoil " to them.

S&WIowegan
June 1, 2006, 04:16 PM
In our area, MagTech 240 gr. JSPs ar pretty reasonable price-wise and NOT extremely hot.

FYI: A batting glove or golf glove on you strong hand will cut down the wear and tear on your hand from the checkered grips.

Bob.

ssteven1
June 1, 2006, 11:16 PM
winchester usa ammo

240 grain at 1180

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=Q4240&cart=NDQgUmVtIE1hZ251bQ==

Deanimator
June 2, 2006, 05:32 PM
winchester usa ammo

240 grain at 1180

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that's the stuff they sell at Wally World, which is what I was looking to buy.

I think I'll call ahead before I buy a box tommorrow.

Who thought you'd have to make an APPOINTMENT at Walmart...?

Deanimator
June 3, 2006, 06:50 PM
Just got back from Walmart with my box of Winchester .44 Magnum. I did indeed call ahead, explaining why. They were appologetic, and there was someone at the counter when I got there. The stuff's pretty expensive, something like $24 for the box, but it's just to test the gun. I'll probably be getting dies soon anyway, so I can load .44 Specials. For those just tuning in, I had the forcing cone squared (One side was normal, the other WAY too tight). I just need to make sure it no longer spits.

After leaving Wally World, I decided to hit Gander Mountain. I was truly surprised to see that they had almost no handgun stocks, and none for an N frame Smith at all. I found an extra set of S&W target stocks Wednesday night, so I can shoot it for test tommorrow without drawing blood. :D

Speaking of reloading, has anyone used .44 full wadcutters in either the Special or the Magnum? I'm thinking of buying some from Penn Bullets.

EastKY_DO
June 4, 2006, 12:10 PM
I chrono'd some of the above mentioed loads out of my 5.5 inch Redhawk and they averaged 1363 fps, with a standard deviation of only 2.4 fps for a 10 shot string.

Deanimator
June 4, 2006, 12:15 PM
I chrono'd some of the above mentioed loads out of my 5.5 inch Redhawk and they averaged 1363 fps, with a standard deviation of only 2.4 fps for a 10 shot string.
That's probably hotter than what I want, but at the same time, it's a good test for my specific issue. If there are no problems, I'm done and it's back to mostly Specials.

Thanks.

Deanimator
June 4, 2006, 04:05 PM
Just got back from the range.

Man, with those Winchesters, and the S&W Target grips, the recoil is BRUTAL! Now I REALLY wish I'd been able to buy those Pachmayrs that Gander Mountain didn't have. I'll probably give B&T guns in Middleburg Hts a call to see if they have any.

Still, once I adjusted the sights, it shot pretty well. It still spits a little, although it's much better than before, not even doing it every time. But it still drew a little blood on my face.

Looking at the forcing cone, there seems to be a small burr on the side that was spitting. Either that, or (I'm not sure how to describe it.) there's material from the rear face of the forcing cone that's protruding into the forcing cone, as you might expect if something with a hole in it was milled, but the hole not cleaned up.

I expect that it wouldn't spit at all with Specials now, but I might as well have that last little thing fixed up. I figure that a little work with a long, narrow stone around the inside edge of the forcing cone should take care of it. Tommorrow's the first night of the summer pistol league, so I can drop the gun off when I go to shoot.

Koveras
June 4, 2006, 08:05 PM
The intermittent spitting you describe sounds more like a timing issue than a forcing cone issue. And if the gunsmith squared off the back of the barrel, cleaning up the forcing cone should have been part of that.

You may want to consider sending the gun to a gunsmith who specializes in S&W revolvers, or maybe to S&W, for diagnosis. It is NOT normal for spitting from a .44 to draw blood on your face.

Deanimator
June 4, 2006, 10:19 PM
The intermittent spitting you describe sounds more like a timing issue than a forcing cone issue. And if the gunsmith squared off the back of the barrel, cleaning up the forcing cone should have been part of that.

Timing seems to be good. I did notice a burr or something similar.

BluesBear
June 5, 2006, 06:44 AM
has anyone used .44 full wadcutters in either the Special or the Magnum?For many years I have had very good results using full wadcutters in .41 and .44.
I really like the 190gr double end wadcutters from National Bullet. I push then around 850-900 fps and get great accuracy. They also make a good SD round for short barrel .44 Special revolvers.

But I'd prefer to find someone who sells bullets cast from the old 245gr Hensley & Gibbs 107A .429 wadcutter mould. They make a thumping SD round.
If anyone knows of any company producing these please let me know.
Same goes for the 175gr H&G #255 in .410.

Deanimator
June 5, 2006, 10:25 AM
But I'd prefer to find someone who sells bullets cast from the old 245gr Hensley & Gibbs 107A .429 wadcutter mould.
I did a quick look around, but didn't find anything. I've mostly dealt with Penn, Magnus and National, and they only seem to have the 240gr. rather than the one you're looking for. I'm fan of Penn, since I've used a lot of their bullets and have met the owner. I'm also a big fan of Magnus's 200gr. LSWC for the .45acp.

Deanimator
June 6, 2006, 09:07 AM
Dropped the Model 29 off during a pistol match last night. Smith will use the forcing cone cutter on it. Should probably have it to test by tommorrow night. I'm thinking that that should eliminate the remaining issues.

He's also going to throw on a set of Pachmayr Presentation grips. MAN, it hurts to shoot that gun with the Goncalo Alves target grips! No wonder it was so cheap when I bought it! :D

Deanimator
June 8, 2006, 11:09 AM
Tried my 4" Model 29 with the forcing cone cleaned up last night. Still spits a LITTLE, but much better.

Gunsmith looked it over again. There's just the SLIGHTEST bit of a timing issue. He's going to replace the hand and do whatever else is necessary. I suspect that with Specials, the problem wouldn't have even been noticeable. With the Pachmayr Signature grips on, it was MUCH nicer to shoot! I had a set of Gripper Pros on it the first time I owned the gun.

The gun is so nice, that it's worth all of the hassle.

I'd have shot al Zarqawi with this gun! :D

helpwanted
June 8, 2006, 12:00 PM
What you need is... a new "gunsmith".

Deanimator
June 8, 2006, 01:47 PM
Nah, I've got all of $10.00 into the job, not counting the grips.

vanilla_gorilla
June 10, 2006, 03:09 AM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like those Winchester 240grain loads. I didn't want to say I was a wimp, but out of my 4 inch 629, they leave me with a bad feeling. A box is about all I can handle in one day.

Maybe I'm more of a .44Special kind of guy...:o

Deanimator
June 10, 2006, 11:42 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like those Winchester 240grain loads. I didn't want to say I was a wimp, but out of my 4 inch 629, they leave me with a bad feeling. A box is about all I can handle in one day.
They're definitely bad medicine with the issue target grips. I don't even want to think of what they feel like with the magna grips that the gun originally had.

On the other hand, were it a 6 1/2" gun and I hunted, I wouldn't hesitate to use them for deer hunting. I was discussing the gun (and hunting) with a friend in Delaware this morning. I simply have no accuracy confidence in shotguns. On the other hand, I have every confidence in this gun at 50 yards. Can't legally hunt with a 4" here in Ohio, but I know I could hit with it. Terrain and cover permitting, I'd shoot recumbent with it the way I do at 200 yards with my K-38.

Hook686
June 11, 2006, 03:02 AM
I recently chronographed several different .44 magnum loads, using my new S&W 629. I agree the "Felt recoil", is quite subjective, and seems also something I did not very well predict. The following was with a 6-1/2" 629 Classic.

Brand weight(gr.) fps(average) impression

Remington 180 SJHP 1920 +/- 37 sharp
Black Hills 240 JHP 1479 +/- 17 very sharp
Speer short barrel 200 GDHP 1367 +/- 16 light
Speer 270 GDSP 1465 +/- 19 sharp
Speer 210 GDHP 1762 +/- 5 very sharp
Federal Power-shok 180 JHP 1861 +/- 25 moderate
Hornady 200 JHP/XPT 1566 +/- 48 moderate
Blazer .44 Spl 200 GDHP 1097 +/- 22 very Soft


Surprises ?

The biggest was shooting the Remington 180 grain SJHP in my Marlin 1895 SS .... yielded 2450 fps, for 2400 ft-lbs. and only moderate felt recoil.

The Black Hills 240 grain JHP's produced 1786 fps, for 1700 ft-lbs., with only sharp felt recoil in the carbine.

I will have no reservations about carrying the Speer Short Barrel GDHP's in my S&W 629. With 1367 fps and 830 ft.-lbs. of energy, these rival my S&W 686, with its bigger fireball, and louder blast. The light recoil was a pleasant addition.

This was a good trip to the range. I found a good "Personal Defense" round and a couple of good looking hunting rounds for my new S&W 629, or my Marlin carbine.

In addition, I looked at the Blazer .44 Special round, with almost 1100 fps and 535 ft-lbs. of energy, with new light. The GDHP's make this a respectable "Home Defense" tool, from my view.

Deanimator
June 13, 2006, 10:30 AM
The problem with the Model 29 seems to be unrelated to the typical issues. It's going to S&W. Please see the new thread.

S&WIowegan
June 13, 2006, 11:12 AM
I bought a box of each this past week and shot them in 3 629s, 4", 6" and 8 3/8" barrels. That UMC 180 gr. load is just plain nasty to shoot:( I was wearing a shooting glove and the grips were Hogue smooth wood on the 4" and factory checkered targets on the other two. The UMCs were busting my middle finger on the strong hand pretty hard. The WWBs were fine and my assorted handloads were too. I guess that UMC load is more of a carbine ammo.

Bob.

asknight
June 15, 2006, 01:04 PM
What new thread? Care to provide a link?

The spitting issues are a lot more serious than many people attribute. One day you'll end up losing an eye to a revolver spitting lead, while you're wondering why your $10 gunsmith couldn't get it fixed 100%.

Deanimator
June 15, 2006, 06:15 PM
What new thread? Care to provide a link?

The spitting issues are a lot more serious than many people attribute. One day you'll end up losing an eye to a revolver spitting lead, while you're wondering why your $10 gunsmith couldn't get it fixed 100%.
The gun's already gone to S&W. My guy did everything you'd normally do to eliminate spitting. And now it isn't. It's shooting gas backwards due to a defect in the barrel, one that has been there all along. The barrel was defective when I bought it, when the gunshop bought it, and when the guy who sold it to them bought it. Barrel-cylinder gaps don't NARROW with use. Twenty+ years ago, somebody in QC had a bad day and shipped a gun that shouldn't have been passed. That's life in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, I guess.

I don't know about you, but I wear shooting glasses. The most I'll "lose" is the cost of repairs by S&W plus shipping. I spent $10 to discover an unusual problem that needed to be fixed by the factory. Weighed against the possibility of not having to ship the gun to S&W, it was well worth the money. I can't buy an individual sized pizza in a restaurant for $10... at least not one I'd actually eat.

BluesBear
June 15, 2006, 11:21 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=205370

asknight
June 16, 2006, 12:28 PM
Tell me, honestly, do you think you'll have time to tell the criminal to stop and wait while you put on your safety glasses before you shoot him so that your revolver won't put your eyes out?

Thanks for the link, BluesBear!

Deanimator
June 16, 2006, 04:28 PM
Tell me, honestly, do you think you'll have time to tell the criminal to stop and wait while you put on your safety glasses before you shoot him so that your revolver won't put your eyes out?

1. What makes you think this a. My only firearm, b. My primary defensive gun? As I may have previously noted, I reaquired this gun from a friend who couldn't afford to have it repaired. That implies that I KNEW it needed repair, AND that I intended to have it... REPAIRED, whether for $10 or $80.

2. What part of "I spent $10 to try to avoid a $45 trip to S&W plus a $80 or more repair." don't you understand? ...not to mention "I've sent the gun to S&W." Call me eccentric, but if I can get something fixed for $10 rather than $80, I'll usually do it. If that doesn't work, I'll go for the $80 fix. I gambled $10 to save $115. Trust me, I won't need to sell any blood because the total cost (not counting grips) went from $125 to $135.

asknight
June 17, 2006, 05:00 PM
S&W has an unconditional no-questions-asked lifetime warranty no matter whether you are the 1st or 100th owner, so I was wondering why you were sending it to $10 gunsmiths who were "going to try this and that tool(s)" to get it working properly. If S&W is charging you for the repair, then the damage was caused by the owner's neglect or carelessness, or damage caused by unauthorized "gunsmiths".

It doesn't matter if it is your primary defense weapon or your last choice. A weapon that will fail or harm you when you need it most is useless, IMO. My point was, how do you think the criminal is going to react when you ask him to wait a few minutes while you go get your "primary" defensive piece, or find your safety glasses before you can properly defend yourself with that weapon.

Your point #2 is completely moot as you only said that after I began commenting on this thread and made my original point, which I reiterated above. Reread my first two paragraphs above.

I will now bow out of this thread as it is clear to me that you are becoming defensive and snappy. Wishing you the best.

Deanimator
June 18, 2006, 09:51 AM
S&W has an unconditional no-questions-asked lifetime warranty no matter whether you are the 1st or 100th owner, so I was wondering why you were sending it to $10 gunsmiths who were "going to try this and that tool(s)" to get it working properly. If S&W is charging you for the repair, then the damage was caused by the owner's neglect or carelessness, or damage caused by unauthorized "gunsmiths".
That's funny, THEY said it probably WOULDN'T be a warranty repair, based on the age. But hey, what do they know? They're just doing the work.

In fact, the worst of the problem was fixed BEFORE it got to S&W, and it cost me $10.

The truth of the matter is that it's S&W's screwup from day one, but I'm not losing any sleep over it, since it's a Model 29-2 in excellent condition. Spending $10 to isolate the problem doesn't exactly leave me in tears or financially crippled. Neither does the estimated cost of repairs at S&W. I have a problem with the cost of shipping, but then that's hardly the fault of my "$10 gunsmith" OR S&W, is it? That's FEDEX's problem with hiring a lot of thieves. But then UPS has the same problem and requires you to ship Air for the same reason. And trust me, shipping the gun to S&W hasn't exactly left me disarmed and helpless.

You have a perfect right to make a lot of unfounded and ill-considered statements. In turn, I have every right to point out just how unfounded and ill-considered they are.

And in the end, I'll have a nice 4" Model 29-2.

Deanimator
June 26, 2006, 05:48 PM
I called S&W a few days early. They said they'd recut the dished forcing cone, and set the barrel back. The price was $64.00 and it will take 2-3 weeks. I gave them the ok and my credit card number. I should have a working Model 29 soon!

blue06van
June 27, 2006, 06:45 AM
Quote:

I recently chronographed several different .44 magnum loads, using my new S&W 629. I agree the "Felt recoil", is quite subjective, and seems also something I did not very well predict. The following was with a 6-1/2" 629 Classic.

Brand weight(gr.) fps(average) impression

Remington 180 SJHP 1920 +/- 37 sharp
Black Hills 240 JHP 1479 +/- 17 very sharp
Speer short barrel 200 GDHP 1367 +/- 16 light
Speer 270 GDSP 1465 +/- 19 sharp
Speer 210 GDHP 1762 +/- 5 very sharp
Federal Power-shok 180 JHP 1861 +/- 25 moderate
Hornady 200 JHP/XPT 1566 +/- 48 moderate
Blazer .44 Spl 200 GDHP 1097 +/- 22 very Soft


Surprises ?

The biggest was shooting the Remington 180 grain SJHP in my Marlin 1895 SS .... yielded 2450 fps, for 2400 ft-lbs. and only moderate felt recoil.

The Black Hills 240 grain JHP's produced 1786 fps, for 1700 ft-lbs., with only sharp felt recoil in the carbine.

I will have no reservations about carrying the Speer Short Barrel GDHP's in my S&W 629. With 1367 fps and 830 ft.-lbs. of energy, these rival my S&W 686, with its bigger fireball, and louder blast. The light recoil was a pleasant addition.

This was a good trip to the range. I found a good "Personal Defense" round and a couple of good looking hunting rounds for my new S&W 629, or my Marlin carbine.

In addition, I looked at the Blazer .44 Special round, with almost 1100 fps and 535 ft-lbs. of energy, with new light. The GDHP's make this a respectable "Home Defense" tool, from my view.
__________________
Hook686
NRA Life Member
American Legion member


Thank You for the info now I want to try the "Remington 180 SJHP 1920 +/- 37 sharp" in my Marlin 1895 SS in a side by side test with the WWB. I have been using the WWB for a while and have taken several hogs with them.
I also have a Ruger Super RedHawk 44 mag 9.5in (new) that I use the WWB in and the recoil is sharp. I fired one box of the Remington 180 SJHP out of the SRH and did not like the groupings I was getting with them. The WWB seem ok for the groupings I get at 50 yards but I spread them out at 100 yards with the SRH. Could just be I need glasses or upgrade to a scope with more then 2x power. Question? What round would be better for the 50 to 100 yard distance? For keeping a tighter grouping. Please excuse me if this is a stupid question.
Sorry for being off thread topic.

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