Ballistic gelatin test resuts : 25ACP


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Brass Fetcher
June 1, 2006, 10:52 PM
Here it goes : the .25ACP in gelatin.

Block calibrated at 9.4cm and 593 ft/s
Firearm was 2.4" barrel recoil-operated semi-auto

Shot 1 - Remington UMC 50 gr MC. Impacted at 807 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.0". Recovered diameter was 0.250". Track outlined in light blue.

Shot 2 - Hornady 35 gr XTP JHP. Impacted at 931 ft/sec and penetrated to 6.7". Recovered diameter was 0.369". Track outlined in yellow.

Also visible, outlined in dark blue, is the 124 gr Remington JHP available in bulk from Midway USA. Penetration was 15.4", recovered diameter was 0.509". Impact velocity was 1178 ft/sec. Handloaded at 4.3 grains of Bullseye with WSPP. Firearm was 4.00" barrel recoil-operated handgun.

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Bluehawk
June 2, 2006, 06:24 AM
I would venture to say that 14 inch wound channels are not something to sneeze at ...certainly something to think about when all ya can get your hands on is your .25 auto in a pinch!
I know I personally wouldn't want to get hit with one!!!!!

Double Naught Spy
June 2, 2006, 07:33 AM
Police in Bryan, Texas found a man this week shot dead outside a bar, shot three times by a .25 weapon.

And this is significant, why? I can find you reports of folks shot dead with BB guns, but that doesn't seem to make them all that impressive as stoppers. There is a reason why firearms are considered lethal force.

I know I personally wouldn't want to get hit with one!!!!!
Really? Is there any cartridge you would want to get hit with?

A .25 acp fired from a 2.4" barrel is a .25 acp fired from a fairly big gun. I believe that puts it in the realm of a Kahr PM9 barrel and Colt Pony, certainly close to a P32. So it was a Beretta? So if being considered for self defense, would you want to go with shooting ball from a Beretta or hollowpoint from something like a Colt Pony or NAA Guardian? In other words, given platform size and assuming no medical problems precluding shooting such guns, would they not be a much better way to go?

Wound Ballistics has penetration at only about half the amount posted here at 7.8 inches for a Speer Gold Dot. Ball ammo is the way to go with smaller calibers like this because of the lack of penetration of hollowpoints as also shown above. http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/25acp.htm

Biker
June 2, 2006, 09:29 AM
Eye opening. Thanks again for sharing, JE.

Biker

Tropical Z
June 2, 2006, 11:18 AM
I'd still rather have a .22lr
.25acp=:barf:

RyanM
June 2, 2006, 12:36 PM
You sure about that?

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm

Manedwolf
June 2, 2006, 04:01 PM
I'd still rather have a .22lr
.25acp=

So you know better than JMB's reason for designing the .25ACP, for reliable vest-pockets? :)

ANY centerfire is less prone to misfire than rimfire, especially in something so little. And if you're using a vest-pocket-size, chances are it's because the BG is literally on top of you, and you don't get a second chance.

I'd trust a Beretta Jetfire to empty so fast of its nine rounds that it sounds almost full-auto. 22? No way.

To the original poster...any chance you could test the Winchester 45gr Expanding Point? I've been curious about that, supposed to penetrate like a ball, but lose its round tip and expand somewhat.

Brass Fetcher
June 2, 2006, 05:37 PM
Shawn Dodson has pretty much covered this round in bare and denim-faced gelatin.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/25acp/win25-45xp-b20.htm

MICHAEL T
June 2, 2006, 08:05 PM
Thanks for the test My Jetfire will remain loaded with ball. It always goes bang and 14 " looks like enough to me.

Bluehawk
June 3, 2006, 03:25 AM
A .25 acp fired from a 2.4" barrel is a .25 acp fired from a fairly big gun

My Sterling pistol Model 300 is a good example of a standard sized .25 Auto and it's barrel is 2.35 inches...4.6" long X 3.4" high X .50 grip frame...and that's considered big???????

Crosshair
June 3, 2006, 10:50 PM
From what I see, one would be best to stick with ball ammo because otherwise you may not get enough penetration with HP ammo. Do others agree with my thinking???

longeyes
June 3, 2006, 11:12 PM
Guess I dump the Hornady and Magsafe for the Fiocchi ball in my Jetfire.

I've always thought of the Jetfire as a second or even third gun. A hail of headshots at close range ought to be pretty effective, even with .25acp.

DMSHEPARD
June 3, 2006, 11:39 PM
Interesting info, thanks. I guess 2.4 inches makes my Baeur look really tiny. I just measured the entire barrel 2.125"-.875" for the chamber leaves only 1.250" of actual barrel! With modern ammo this gun goes bang everytime.

Brass Fetcher
June 4, 2006, 01:04 AM
I just thought that a guy getting killed by three .25 rounds was a much better indicator of lethality than gelatin tests.

It certainly disproves the silly assertations that the .25ACP is less-than-lethal. But, because gelatin tests are part of an effort to 'characterize' bullet performance, a standard scientifically valid medium had to be chosen. This gives repeatable results that reasonably correlate with 'real world' events. I won't elaborate any more on this point, however, www.firearmstactical.com is a huge data bank of information addressing such topics.

From what I see, one would be best to stick with ball ammo because otherwise you may not get enough penetration with HP ammo. Do others agree with my thinking???

I agree FWIW. The FBI and the former IWBA would likely agree as well. For pistols, if it penetrates 12" or more in ballistic gelatin, it is a winner as far as they are concerned.


Interesting info, thanks. I guess 2.4 inches makes my Baeur look really tiny. I just measured the entire barrel 2.125"-.875" for the chamber leaves only 1.250" of actual barrel! With modern ammo this gun goes bang everytime.

You are very welcome. As I understand it, barrel length is measured from the breach face to the muzzle.

RyanM
June 4, 2006, 01:10 AM
Barrel length in autos is indeed usually measured from the breech face to the muzzle, when the gun is in battery. Revolvers are measured from the face of the cylinder to the muzzle. However, the actual effective barrel length is the distance from the base of the bullet to the muzzle. So using heavy bullets actually increases the effective barrel length.

Manedwolf
June 4, 2006, 06:53 AM
Guess I dump the Hornady and Magsafe for the Fiocchi ball in my Jetfire.

From what I see of the ballistics on the 45gr Expanding Point, which expanded nicely in bare gelatin but seemed to clog passing through denim...

...it looks like possibly (in my most certainly nonexpert observation!) the ideal round for something sturdy like the Jetfire would be the Winchester Expanding Point bullet with the Magsafe's energetic +P loading, perhaps? Expansion to .42 for this caliber is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but that was at the cost of far too little penetration...I can't help wondering how it'd do with more power behind it.

The Magsafe did really bad in one test I'd recalled seeing, very little penetration and the fragmenting didn't hold any kind of wound channel, but they sure do leave the gun with a pronounced bright and loud departure!

Wonder if any reloaders have ever tried such a thing. :) It'd possibly detonate a potmetal junker eventually, but the solid little Jetfire would be good with it.

JERRY
June 4, 2006, 09:45 AM
#4 buckshot is no slouch, and guess what size the pellets are?

now they are moving a bit faster, but their design doesnt let them penetrate as far as the fmj .25acp.


im not an advocate of any round less than .38spl, but if a .25 is the only gun you can carry, handle or hide effectively........by all means load her up with 50gr. fmj and dump all 8-9 of them into the face/throat/upper torso....


stopping somebody has nothing to do with killing them. they can be "stopped" with a shot to the leg, and walk into the E.R. themselves.....

or they can be shot with a single round in the chest, stab you to death and then die themselves 6 hours later.......


14" of penetration in "jello" is good. but you better put the roundS where they need to go and a couple of them to boot.

Dr.Rob
June 4, 2006, 03:04 PM
.25 means hardball to me... when the power point expnads it only penetrates a small amount.

And while I like my Colt .25, I can't imagine carrying it for 'real', though many people did, including its previous owner.

Tropical Z
June 4, 2006, 04:34 PM
You sure about that?
Absolutely!!!
A few years back I was shooting at an old Chevy van with various handguns.A .22lr semi with a 3" barrel sent the rounds through the first outer wall and made nice dents on the far wall.A .25acp semi :barf: with 2.5" barrel did no more than dent the first wall and obviously had no hope of denting the second.The odds of having a new .22lr round fail to fire are exceedingly slim.It's NEVER happened to me and as far as the centerfire being more reliable I think it's a bunch of baloney.

DMSHEPARD
June 4, 2006, 05:52 PM
Thanks JE223, I wasn't sure about that. Then my barrel is 2.125. It's easy to measure, just push the slide back a half inch and twist the barrel, it is the easiest take down I have ever done! IMHO debating last place is kind of pointless, a .22 or .25 is still bad news. Reminds me of a song I heard on the radio The Ballad of Irving

"Irving was the one-hundred-and-forty-second fastest gun in the west, and he was looking for one-forty-three":D

MCgunner
June 4, 2006, 07:18 PM
If you think the .25 is great stuff, why wouldn't you carry a .32 or .380 in a gun just as compact????

The .25 is better in any automatic than the .22 for reasons of reliability, not effectiveness. They're both pretty pathetic. I do have a NAA mini as sort of a back up, deep concealment, but it's never my primary. It's just too handy not to carry, like a good pocket knife.

myusername
June 4, 2006, 07:18 PM
Absolutely!!!
A few years back I was shooting at an old Chevy van with various handguns.A .22lr semi with a 3" barrel sent the rounds through the first outer wall and made nice dents on the far wall.A .25acp semi with 2.5" barrel did no more than dent the first wall and obviously had no hope of denting the second.The odds of having a new .22lr round fail to fire are exceedingly slim.It's NEVER happened to me and as far as the centerfire being more reliable I think it's a bunch of baloney.

And I've heard of trauma doctors saying that considerable damage has been seen from .22's because they will enter the body and then bounce around.

While it may be disturbing to read I would like to get some medical/autopsy reports to see the damage done from different calibers and ammunition types.

MCgunner
June 4, 2006, 07:27 PM
My unqualified take ont he matter is that human skin, which is fairly tough stuff, can clog a typical hollow point upon body entry and prevent further expansion.

Is that a fact? You got scientific evidence? run any cadaver tests? :D

I've seen two .357 180 grain hollow points expand in deer. Well, neither was recovered, but the hole on the off side was a good inch in diameter, so there was something goin' on there. One of 'em broke both shoulders, the other hit rib/lungs. I don't hunt deer with FMJ, I can tell ya that! Good way to lose game. Deer skin is a might better material for jackets and mittens than human skin, tough stuff.

The only deer I've shot with a handgun caliber were with 158 grain SWCs, large flat point. They worked pretty well, but after seein' those two deer hit with the 180 grain JHP XTPs, I worked up an XTP load. Haven't yet used it cause I got a Contender to play with since.

Believe what ya want, I'll stick with hollow points in major calibers for serious self defense.

MCgunner
June 4, 2006, 07:35 PM
The odds of having a new .22lr round fail to fire are exceedingly slim.It's NEVER happened to me and as far as the centerfire being more reliable I think it's a bunch of baloney.

I've had it happen a lot! You must not shoot much .22. Two things, .22 ammo is rimfire and depending on the quality of the ammo, but any can be a problem, the priming around the rim is very inconsistent. A gun with a wide firing pin will have a better time of it. Then, .22s are heal crimped bullets, exposed lube. Moisture in your pocket from sweat will invade the cartridge over time and cause malfuntions. I got to where I just dump the 5 rounds out of my NAA and reload with fresh about ever 2 weeks. Carry that gun for a few months in summer and you'll get three out of five duds. I don't get duds with center fire ammo.

RyanM
June 4, 2006, 10:34 PM
I've had it happen a lot! You must not shoot much .22. Two things, .22 ammo is rimfire and depending on the quality of the ammo, but any can be a problem, the priming around the rim is very inconsistent. A gun with a wide firing pin will have a better time of it. Then, .22s are heal crimped bullets, exposed lube. Moisture in your pocket from sweat will invade the cartridge over time and cause malfuntions. I got to where I just dump the 5 rounds out of my NAA and reload with fresh about ever 2 weeks. Carry that gun for a few months in summer and you'll get three out of five duds. I don't get duds with center fire ammo.

Hm. Yet another reason to get a Companion over a rimfire mini. I just wish they'd make them on the Black Widow frame. :(

-----------

Skin is indeed extremely tough. At lower bullet velocities (like when the bullet is trying to exit), human skin can resist penetration as much as 4" of muscle tissue. I believe horse skin is about the equivalent of 12" of muscle. If the projectile will penetrate greater than 2" of gelatin, it will perforate human skin.

As a general rule, with ammo of reasonable velocity, the first layer of skin is a freebie. Exiting will cost about 2-4" of penetration, depending on how far the bullet goes. Re-entering (like if the bullet passes through an arm, then hits the torso) will cost you 2". Exiting again will be 4".

So for instance, if a bullet with 12" of potential penetration hits a 4" thick arm, it only has 6" of potential left. If it hits again after passing through, that's only 4" of penetration into the torso. I've run numbers through my calculation program (which is pretty darn accurate so far), and I'm really starting to think 12" is only adequate for unobstructed body shots. If the bullet hits an arm first, you want more like 16"+.

Also, according to my calculations, light and fast bullets do better through an obstructing arm than do heavy and slow, for the same total penetration potential. And both are better than heavy and fast, strangely. And smaller calibers do better than large calibers, for the same sectional density and velocity. It appears that smaller recovered diameters (which is the case with both light and fast, and smaller calibers) greatly increase the ability to penetrate skin.

Note that light & fast is only better for the same penetration potential, because heavy & slow and heavy & fast both have larger expanded diameters for the same penetration. For the same expanded diameter (and thus the same hole size roughly), heavy & slow and heavy & fast both beat the pants off light & fast.

Minator
June 4, 2006, 10:47 PM
Not to sound ignorant on the matter but have any of you seen the episode of cops where a black male was at a barbecue with his family and his brother pulled out his 25 caliber pistol and shot him. The 25 was potruding out the rear of his back but did no break the skin and this guy was fairly thick and it hit him in the upper chest so needless to say these results are fairly consistent to the actual preformance on an adult males upper torso.

Coltdriver
June 4, 2006, 11:17 PM
JE223 - Thanks for the time trouble and effort to post your results. The little .25 has a lot more penetration than I thought it would have.

I have a browning baby that I carry sometimes. It is very reliable and can dump 6 rounds as quickly as I can pull the trigger. As much as we would all like to have a pocket plasma gun with us the little .25 is considerably better than nothing at all. I either carry fiochi or federal hard ball in it. The barrel is only about 2.1 inches long from breech to muzzle.

Manedwolf
June 5, 2006, 12:31 AM
JE223 - Thanks for the time trouble and effort to post your results. The little .25 has a lot more penetration than I thought it would have.

I have a browning baby that I carry sometimes. It is very reliable and can dump 6 rounds as quickly as I can pull the trigger. As much as we would all like to have a pocket plasma gun with us the little .25 is considerably better than nothing at all. I either carry fiochi or federal hard ball in it. The barrel is only about 2.1 inches long from breech to muzzle.

Well, it is a JMB design, I believe. And a lot of people do seem to think he knew what he was doing. :D

And likewise for the Jetfire. It's emptied as fast as the trigger can be pulled. I don't think nine rounds in someone's face as a backup is anything like "ineffective"

Bluehawk
June 5, 2006, 08:10 AM
Minator
I did see that episode of COPS...the victim was a fairly big guy, thick upper torso, and he was shot in the upper left side of the chest...the .25 auto bullet causing a raised lump in his back over his shoulder blade. (might have even gone through his shoulder blade considering where he was shot in the chest) I also remember how much pain he was in while talking to the investigating officer, the tears and disbelief that his brother shot him and I winced at the thought!

Minator
June 5, 2006, 03:13 PM
Yeah looking at these results go tme interested in getting a pocket pistol to be a Bug of my Bug Im still waiting for my CHL in the mail.

Doggieman
June 6, 2006, 08:54 PM
based on my admittedly limited experience with .22lr, I get about 1 FTF every 80-100 rounds. I figure it's a tossup between .25 and .22, each with its plusses and minuses. In a mousegun I think I'd go with .25 for the centerfire aspect alone.

Brass Fetcher
June 8, 2006, 01:05 PM
I've got some lathe time lined up tomorrow, look out for some interesting .25ACP bullet tests sometime next week...

JE223

GAMALOT
June 8, 2006, 04:08 PM
I carry my Baretta 925 .25 loaded with Glazer safety slugs for the first six rounds. Is there any info on the performance of these rounds?

I never gave much thought to penetration in flesh but always gave alot of thought to stray bullets going thru walls and into who is on the other side.

It is nice to think that all of our fired rounds will hit the intended target first but the reality of real fire fights prove to be far different. Controlled tests are great for showing some good solid info but in the heat of a gun battle and especially one at close range, all bets are off and about the only thing that really counts is speed and reliability.
I will always believe the best gun to carry is the one you find easiest to carry all the time and do.

Gary

RyanM
June 8, 2006, 05:12 PM
Wound profile of .357 mag Glaser. http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/357%20Magnum%20Glaser.jpg

.25 ACP will only be worse...

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