[get_involved]

to your area.

AND IT'S SPREADING ALL OVER THE U.S.......FASTER THEN YOU THINK!

1. A recent story in the Los Angeles times (June, 2002) stated that 40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

3. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

4. Over 100,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles county are living in garages.

5. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

6. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

Polls show that most Americans want something done about illegal immigration, but are afraid to speak out because they don't want to be labeled as racist, or anti-immigrant. That's the weapon open border advocates use. It is very effective, and they know it, so they use it at every opportunity.

Meanwhile the social and economic costs keep growing.

"The net cost of immigration is $70 billion a year." - George Borjas, Harvard professor. 2002 "Immigration is estimated to cost Californians $1,300 per household annually in additional taxes." -- Costly immigration, Paul Craig Roberts

"Immigration costs U.S. born workers $133 billion a year in job losses." - Economics professor George Borjas

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE $55,200, [Center for Immigration Studies, 2001].

Overall, migrants from around the world send $30 billion to relatives back home. $23 billion last year to Latin America and the Caribbean. $10 billion was sent home to Mexico alone. Filipino workers send $6 billion a year and 10,000 cash transfers are sent to China each month, averaging $2,000 to $3,000 each.

Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.

Our politicians MUST be PUSHED or this will continue and only get worse.

Start by participating with organizations like Numbersusa which is working to curtail illegal immigration. Numbersusa will provide you with many easy actions to choose from to CURB ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and reduce immigration numbers to healthy levels. Registering with the network costs you nothing and obligates you to nothing. There's nothing to join and your name will not be shared with any other entity. All information you provide here is confidential. No information will be shared with anybody. http://www.numbersusa.org This is a great organization!

Join organizations like F.A.I.R., who work to reduce immigration levels. http://www.fairus.org

And e-mailing or writing your representaives has much more impact then voting. http://www.congress.org/

The future of our country rests with it's people. It starts with YOU.

[Pilgrim]

Economic warfare is being waged against the United States and the shock troops of the enemy are illegal immigrants.

The latest reports on income tax filings in California indicate that personal income tax payments are below expectations. No one in Sacramento seems to know what to do.

In another article in the Orange County Register, workman's compensation premiums for employers are four times what they would be in Arizona.

I hope to get out of this mad house PDRK before the legislature finally decides their only solution is to raise taxes even higher.

[No4Mk1]

And this is related to firearms and/or civil rights how exactly?:rolleyes:

[keyhole]

Yeah, probably needs shuffled over to legal & political

[Ed Brunner]

?

[Standing Wolf]

And this is related to firearms and/or civil rights how exactly?

1. Lost American civil rights.

2. Additional spurious votes for Democratic (sic) party candidates.

3. Tax increases that can't be spent as discretionary income.

4. Soaring crime rates.

Cheap labor never is!

[geegee]

Welcome to The High Road! Say, your call for social activism on your first post notwithstanding, what do you like to shoot? geegee

[get_involved]

geegee

Unfortunately, I like to shoot my mouth off.

[pax]

Get_Involved,

Welcome to THR.
From the forum page: General Discussion
Meet fellow forum members, find a common ground. Introduce new people to responsible firearm ownership. Posts must be related to firearms.
Since this post isn't related to firearms, I am moving it to Legal & Political which is the proper place for it.

Again, welcome.

pax

[get_involved]

Pax

I just reread. My fault.

[pax]

No biggie, easily fixed. :)

Now, about your post.

1. A recent story in the Los Angeles times (June, 2002) stated that 40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes.
What percentage of the money they earn belongs to you -- and why?

pax

Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world. -- Schopenhauer

[biere]

If they place a burden on tax paying people, then the illegals are in the wrong.

I have seen articles where it is shown that the illegals can't pay their hospital bills, that places a burden on the ones who do pay their bills.

I have seen articles where a car load of illegals hits an insured motorist, and it is the illegals fault. But the illegals often don't have insurance or a legal job where money can be pulled by the courts before the person is paid, so the cost of repairing the vehicle falls to someone who should not have to carry the burden.

Some services like garbage and what not get overburdened when garages and other things are used as dwellings because the people who pay for the service have this leech in the garage helping to raise their costs.

[LawDog]

1. A recent story in the Los Angeles times (June, 2002) stated that 40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

Not paying taxes? The horror!!

Since "predominantly" could be 51% out of that 40%, could we have a clearer guesstimate? In other words, how many of these non-tax-paying super-criminals are US citizens?

2. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

Seems to me the best and most Constitutional way to fix this particular point is to end welfare.

3. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

Just off-paw, I'd say that set of unlawful immigration problems is being taken care of.

4. Over 100,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles county are living in garages.

And how much rent are they paying to the garage owners? Rent money, I'd like to point out, that is going back into the economy.

5. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

"Most likely"? Right. *psst* Just between you, me, and the Carnivore program, I wouldn't trust the FBI if they told me that the sky is blue, water's wet and the sun is going to come up in the east tomorrow morning.

6. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

And how do we know this? Is there an blank on the HUD form marked "Illegal Alien: Yes/No"?

LawDog

[Zander]

What percentage of the money they earn belongs to you -- and why?Gonna guess that you just didn't have a 'tongue-in-cheek' smilie available for our benefit.

This wasn't a serious question, was it?!?

Certainly hope not...

[pax]

Zander,

It most certainly was a serious question.

One of the reasons everyone is mad about illegals because the illegals aren't paying their fair share. Apparently the rest of us own some percentage of what these people earn. I want to know exactly what that percentage is -- and why.

pax

We do not know a truth without knowing its cause. -- Aristotle

[Bruce H]

Serious question,serious answer. If the illegals are collecting any benefits that are tax funded then by their not paying taxes they are keeping funds from those who do. With the convoluted laws it would probably take forever and a far better firm that Arthur Andersen to unravel it.

[LawDog]

If the illegals are collecting any benefits that are tax funded then by their not paying taxes they are keeping funds from those who do.

Their are plenty of American citizens who don't pay taxes, 99.44% of the inhabitants of my jail come to mind. Not to mention most of those American citizens who receive welfare.

Is this one of those times where it's okay if an American citizen does it, but how dare anyone else try to do the same thing?

LawDog

[pax]

Serious question,serious answer. If the illegals are collecting any benefits that are tax funded then by their not paying taxes they are keeping funds from those who do. With the convoluted laws it would probably take forever and a far better firm that Arthur Andersen to unravel it.
Ah, I see.

They owe you, because you paid them.

A nice bit of tail-chasing, isn't it?

pax

I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. -- Will Rogers

[get_involved]

Pax

"I want to know exactly what that percentage is-- and why"?

I want to know the meaning of life, but....


Why do want to know? Isn't it bad enough that millions aren't paying income taxes but are bankrupting our county hospitals and overcrowding our schools? Isn't bad enough that there are 10 to 15 million illegal aliens in our country? What is your point?

[Carlos]

What percentage of the money they earn belongs to you -- and why?

Easy, the same amount of taxes we pay, proportional to the money WE make. I assume you meant "we" (IRS/DOR) vs "you."

Fair. They pay fair share of taxes or GTF out. Also, they should have to repay any and all monies spent by ME, US, WE in setting them up, essentially, with medical insurance, housing, etc.

Get the pic?

Company's caught employing illegals should pay a heavy price for their inequities.

Let's equalize the playing field again for the minority - The True American Worker.

[pax]

Get_Involved,

My point is that we can't fix it if we don't know what is causing it.

So I ask again: do you own a percentage of these people's labor?

Bruce says you do, because they have taken a portion of yours.

But if the taxes you pay are just your fair share of what you owe society, by what right do you complain about how society chooses to spend it? If that money belongs to the government, and not to you, what right do you have to complain if the government gives it away to illegals or burns it in the street?

You complain about the illegals, but only because they aren't getting robbed at the same rate you are yourself. You think if only they could be robbed in the same way you are being robbed, all would be well.

Frankly, I think the root cause of all the ills you listed isn't the presence of illegals. It's the presence of a government that acts as though we are its indentured servants -- and of willing slaves who are only interested in snatching the bread out of other slaves' mouths.

pax

Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when he is called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason. -- Oscar Wilde

[LawDog]

The High Road had an interesting poll concerning cheating on income tax just last week. The poll, results and comments are here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18803

As far as bankrupting the local hospitals and schools, the number of legal leeches probably meets or exceeds the number of illegal leeches.

The only solution to this problem is to reform the welfare system.

Is it a Bad Thing that 10 to 15 million illegal aliens in this country? Why don't we ask an American Indian that question -- after all we've only got 10-15 million illegal aliens in our country, whereas the Indian tribes have upwards of 200 million illegals in their country.

LawDog

[get_involved]

Pax


"what is causing it"?


Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term.

By the way...WE are the government.

[get_involved]

LawDog

You are living in the past. This is 2003. And what about the people who were here before the Indians. With your logic, the Indians must be illegal aliens then. Stupid argument.

[pax]

Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term.

By the way...WE are the government.
What is a corporation? Why does it exist? Where does its money come from and how does it get it?

Who is paying for those things, right now? (Hint: ask yourself how this is being paid for, right now, and where that money comes from.)

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do -- really? The illegal is working at wages he has agreed to accept, at work he went to great lengths to voluntarily seek out, and he does not bother with the indentured servitude of taxes. Who is willing to be exploited, here? I'll give you a hint: it ain't the illegal.

You are the government. OK. What percentage of what I earn belongs to you? And why?

pax

All the fiery rhetoric of the Founders was directed at a "tyrant" who taxed his subjects at a rate of about three percent. Today, we in "the land of the free" are taxed at about 50 percent when you add federal, state, and local taxes. – Doug Newman

[sonny]

Hmmmmmm?......if a uninvited someone moved into your house and refused to pay rent or contribute with the chores and ate your food and so on and so on,would you treat them the same way you would treat you own children or family members if they behaved in the same way?.......right or wrong somebody has a BASIC right to be in your home...For better or for worse.... and somebody DOES NOT.
What if thir family beat the snot out of them and they had nowhere else to go?....is it your duty to take them in your home and let them make their own set of rules that benifit them and them only?....at your expense?
AMERICA IS MY HOME!
As an american citizen I believe that Americans who were either born here or are here legally should without a doubt be afforded opportunities and PREFERENTIAL treatment ABOVE those who are here ILLEGALLY......bottom line!......sad to say that is not the way it is always.
Go ahead and tear my little scenerio to shreds......they don't belong here unless they are here legally.....anyone who disagrees with me on that is dangerous to MY America.
If anyone wants to argue the the SMALL points it seems to me that you are just exercising your debating skills and you are ignoring what is obvious......we have economic and social problems in this country and if we don't tighten our belt we are in trouble.........imigration is as good a place as any to start.

P.S. I personally know MANY illegal alians and have a great deal of respect for most of them.....my experience has been that they are hard workers and seek a better life for themselves and their familys.....but I would not shed a tear if they were sent back to where they came from and did not return untill they did so legally.

[LawDog]

No, Get_Involved, that's your logic. I'm the one who doesn't mind the immigration. You're the getting your Hanes in a half-hitch over immigration.

America is immigration. America is about millions of immigrants.

My ancestors got to the United States in the wave of Scots highlanders fleeing the English crushing of the Clans after Culloden.

Others of my ancestors got here in the flood of Irish "Wild Geese" during the Potato Famine.

Not one of my ancestors had a green card. They didn't check in with INS. Not a single blessed one of them went through a FedGov processing center.

Every person reading this, every single one, is the descendant of immigrants to these shores. Every. Single. One. Millions of them.

And yet you have the nerve to pitch a wall-eyed fit because somebody else has the absolute audacity to do what your ancestors did.

"Great Gramma and Granpa did it, but you can't do it!"

Pfagh.

LawDog

[pax]

If anyone wants to argue the the SMALL points it seems to me that you are just exercising your debating skills and you are ignoring what is obvious......we have economic and social problems in this country and if we don't tighten our belt we are in trouble.........imigration is as good a place as any to start.
It isn't a small issue. It is THE issue. You want to fiddle around with effects, but unless you understand the root cause you will do nothing but make the situation worse.

Most of the proposed solutions to the illegal alien situation are useless, because they haven't taken the cause into account.

Sonny, do you remember the Iron Curtain? Miles upon miles of 12-foot fences, coiled barbed wire, patrolling watchmen with vicious dogs, and ceaseless vigilance to keep the border closed. That border was one of the things that bankrupted the Soviet Union -- and it didn't work. Every year, people still managed to get through it in one direction and millions of rubles of black market goods slipped through in the other direction.

Fact is, it didn't work.

Why not?

pax

The average American family head will be forced to do twenty years' labor to pay taxes in his or her lifetime. -- James Bovard

[get_involved]

LawDog

What part of "illegal" don't you understand?

[pax]

Get_Involved,

Ah, it's the "illegal" part that bothers you. Ok. Why don't we just drop all the extra hoops, and pass a law making everyone who comes to these shores a legal immigrant?

pax

[LawDog]

we have economic and social problems in this country and if we don't tighten our belt we are in trouble.........imigration is as good a place as any to start.

No, a good place to start is welfare reform. Get rid of welfare payments, AFDC and every other Gov't-sponsered, tax-funded money siphon and you've just solved your economic, social and immigration problems.

LawDog

[get_involved]

Pax


"why don't we just pass making everyone who comes to these shores a "legal" immigrant."

You are right. Since half the world would like to live in the U.S., that would only add about 3 billion people to our country. Yeah, that would be real cozy. We don't need no stinking immigration laws.

[pax]

Ah, I see. So it is not the "illegal" part of the immigration that bothers you after all?

In that case -- what LawDog said. And don't bother with that particular red herring again. :D

pax

All languages carry in them a portrait of their users and the idioms of every language say over and over again, 'He is a stranger and therefore a barbarian.' ... It is the only joke that God ever repeats, because its humor never grows stale. -- Robert A. Heinlein

[LawDog]

What part of "illegal" don't you understand?

I understand that just because the government says that something is illegal, don't necessarily mean that it's so.

I understand that just because the government has lableled something as "illegal" doesn't mean that the government is right.

The governement doesn't like guns. If they make guns illegal tomorrow, should I kowtow to the governments' wishes? Should you?

There are simply scads of people here who can carry on for pages and weeks over how bad the War on Drugs is.

The government says that drugs are illegal. Does that make the government right? Whole bunch of people here can give compelling arguments that the gov't is most assuredly not correct in this.

More to the point, I have the right to voice my opinion on any subject that I wish. I wish to voice my opinion on "illegal" immigration, and I will jolly well do so. Now, if the gov't chooses to make my voicings "illegal" you can bet your left bippy that I will continue to do so, and the gov't can take a hike.

LawDog

[get_involved]

Pax

????

[pax]

Get_Involved,

LawDog produced a really beautiful, moving screed on the fact that America is a nation of immigrants.

You responded, "What part of "illegal" don't you understand?"

I understood you to be saying that it was the illegal status of the immigrants that was at issue here. That is what you told LawDog by your answer.

You refuted me and showed that your issue is not "illegal," after all. You don't want all those immigrants to be legal.

Since that is the case, it'd be nice if you had something to say about that wonderful post of LawDog's up above. "What part of 'illegal' don't you understand?" was just a red herring. You didn't mean that at all.

Anyway, I didn't really mean to get pulled into that side issue. Please forgive me. I'm more interested in hearing you explain why you think the immigrants are coming here. What do they get in America that they are not getting in their own countries?

pax

We do not know a truth without knowing its cause. -- Aristotle

[get_involved]

Pax

LOL! Half your posts are babble and it's obvious you just like to argue. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

[Bruce626]

Pax,

I'm more of a Shotgun formum poster, so not so politically eloquent as you, but I've just got to ask...

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand? As in Illegal Alien.

Your arguments seem to be simply baiting the guys. Do you have some opinions of your own?

Illegal Aliens should not be here, and if found here should be sent back to where they came from. Any other questions about their existence here don't matter.

If the border they keep crossing is porous, it is our duty to protect it against alien invasion.

Like I said, I've got a pretty simply, un-eloquent view so I could be wrong.

[LawDog]

Her point is that you seem to be using "illegal immigrants" as a smokescreen to cover the fact that you apparently don't want any immigrants in the United States, legal, illegal or otherwise.

Does that clear it up for you?

LawDog

[Shootin' Buddy]

LOL! Half your posts are babble and it's obvious you just like to argue. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
Her point is that you are trying to repair the mizzen mast on a sinking ship. Fixing the hole in the bow will be more productive.

[Ladybug]

You are right. Since half the world would like to live in the U.S., that would only add about 3 billion people to our country. Yeah, that would be real cozy. We don't need no stinking immigration laws.

This statement is so wonderfully ignorant, it really illustrates the point LawDog and Pax have been making. Your little disclaimer at the beginning about how you are not just racist doesn't really help your case when you come off so completely racist.

There's a statue in New York, facing all those unworthy non-Americans out there who just want to come here and steal "your" precious resources. There is an inscription on that statue that says:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to be free. "

[Sir Galahad]

Get involved:

Pax is a person of honor. Certainly not someone you should make personal attacks on, if I may say so.

[get_involved]

Bruce626

Finally, somebody who doesn't speak gibberish.

[Ladybug]

so by "gibberish" you mean anything that disagrees with your point of view?? :confused:

[get_involved]

LawDog

I never said I don't want any. You REALLY don't understand what "illegal" means.

[faustulus]

Give me your tired, your poor
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore
Send these the homeless tempest-tost to me
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
--
What a bunch of poppycock. :(

[Bruce626]

I knew when I ventured out from the rather safe confines of Shotguns I was asking for trouble.

I just think that regardless of one's viewpoint on racism and diversity and being the melting pot of the world, one should also consider that...

... the person who breaks into my country should be treated just like the person who breaks into my home... I don't care about their motivations or justifications... they have just committed a crime and need to be treated accordingly.

If you don't like our laws, work within the system to change them. Do not advocate subverting them, for that is treason.

Harsh words, I know... but this is turning out to be a bitch of a harsh world lately.

[get_involved]

Ladybug

NOTHING I said was racist. And being against illegal immigration is not racist. That's a really childish statement. Grow up.

Racist is a favorite buzzword of people that support illegal immigration.

They teach it over at the University of Political Correctness.

Nobody's stupid enough to buy it anymore.

The "slogan" doesn't say come here illegally.

Look in the mirror.....you will see the racist.

Gibberish is meaningless or unintelligible talk or writing. Pax has plenty of that.

Have a nice night.

[LawDog]

You REALLY don't understand what "illegal" means.

Oh, goodness. And me being a Peace Officer and all.

Well, let me take my best Sunday hack at "Illegal".

"Illegal" means any thing or act contravening a law.

For example, when the Jim Crow laws were in effect, it would be illegal for a black man to drink at a water fountain reserved for white people.

Now, while "illegal" means to go against what is legal, or lawful, it makes no distinction as to the morality of the original law, as seen in the above example.

As a further example, in the early days of the United States it was legal to deny women the right to vote in elections. In other words, it was illegal for a woman to vote in an election. No matter if this law was fair, just or moral, any act allowing a woman to vote would have been termed illegal.

In addition, a law passed that violates the Constitution of the United States would be considered legal until such time as the law were petitioned in front of the Supreme Court, and such law declared UnConstitutional.

In simpler language, if Congress were to pass a law which violated the Constitution, it would be illegal to disobey that law until such time as it be found to violate the Constitution be nine people in black robes.

Such as the laws passed which violated numerous Constitutional rights of Japanese-Americans during World War 2.

To interfere in the confinement of a Japanese-American at that time would have been illegal.

Violating the law would be the moral thing to do, and it would be the right thing to do, but it would still be illegal.

So, how am I doing, Get_Involved?

Have I defined "Illegal" to your satisfaction?

LawDog

[Ladybug]

You are a racist because you somehow believe that you have more of a right to be here than someone else. The fact that you view "everyone wanting to come here" as a threat shows that.

As for the illegal Mexican cheap labor -- stop shopping for the cheapest crap you can find at Walmart, and you'll stop supporting the companies that hire the illegal aliens.

All everyone was trying to say is, the solution is not to build concentration camps for illegal Mexicans... if you don't want them paying less taxes than you, reform the tax code so you don't give all of your money to the government. If you don't want them living off welfare, get rid of welfare. If you don't want them to be "illegal" make them legal.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to be free. " - also does not say "give me your privileged few who can afford to fly here from some European nation, where our immigration quotas haven't been met."

[Shootin' Buddy]

I'm sorry to see this thread turning into more of a bash than a discussion. Let me see if I can bring it back on track a bit.

get_involved:

If I understand correctly you are not opposed to legal immigration, you are only angry about those who come into the country without attempting to immigrate, or get a visa, or a green card, or any other authorization. Correct me if I'm wrong on that otherwise we'll end up on a side track.

Assuming that I am correct, here is my question.

Is it really the "illegal immigration" you are opposed to, or is it more the illegal activities of the "illegal immigrants?" I mean, it is bad to harm somebody whether your are an illegal immigrant or a US citizen.

Same question phrased differently, suppose Anton comes to this country illegally from Mexico and works on a farm 6 months out of the year. He does not harm anyone in any way, does not rob anybody, only takes advantage of the free medical system once when he cuts himself working in the field, works hard and earns a good solid profit for his employer. Are you opposed to this person being in the country?

[pax]

Bruce626,

I am glad you ventured into L&P. We don't bite, honest! ;)

Your arguments seem to be simply baiting the guys. Do you have some opinions of your own?
Well, I thought I had expressed them. But let me answer the rest of your post first, and then I will express them again.
Illegal Aliens should not be here, and if found here should be sent back to where they came from. Any other questions about their existence here don't matter.
Ok, here is an opinion of my own: the second sentence in the quote above is utter nonsense. If we don't know what brought these people here, we will never make them go away. It is that simple.

Ladybug said this more eloquently than I could, a few posts up. She said: All everyone was trying to say is, the solution is not to build concentration camps for illegal Mexicans... if you don't want them paying less taxes than you, reform the tax code so you don't give all of your money to the government. If you don't want them living off welfare, get rid of welfare. If you don't want them to be "illegal" make them legal. Good post, Ladybug.

Back to Bruce626:
If the border they keep crossing is porous, it is our duty to protect it against alien invasion.
The Soviets protected their border and drove themselves into bankruptcy. -- Oh, and their border was porous the whole time, too. See what I said to Sonny on that topic.

No matter what we do on our borders -- even if we installed rifle towers every 200 yards and 12-foot double fences with guard dogs between them and electronic sensors and issued orders for the border guards to shoot to kill just like the Soviets did -- even if we did all that, people would still get through if they wanted to badly enough. And we would drive ourselves bankrupt doing it.

Back to, "What's your point???" My point is that there is a reason these people come to America. If we find out what the reason is, we can stop them without those expensive and ugly 12-foot double fences topped in razor wire.

So I want you (and everyone) to think about why they come. What makes a man leave his family and travel 700 miles over dirt roads, risk suffocation in the back of a semi-truck, risk getting arrested by a border patrol agent, risk having all his money stolen by coyotes, and willingly labor long hours in the hot sun? Why does he do it?

My answer is that these people come to America because they want to earn money. We pay them, because we want them here. If we did not want them here, we would not pay them.

It is that simple.

pax

The entire essence of America is the hope to first make money -- then make money with money - then make lots of money with lots of money. -- Paul Erdman

[biere]

I think pax needs to explain her idea on not paying taxes to a conclusion.

Lets all lose the services taxes provide. I think police, fire, jails, prisons, the military, and several other things that I consider "needs" would be at least partially funded through taxes. I wonder if the illegals get any useage from the above?

And my first post mentioned illegals who don't always have car insurance. I think most people would agree that the gas tax does not cover all needed road repair, so now we get illegals who if they don't pay taxes are using something others paid for.

And as far as living in a garage, those are not built to the specs a house uses. Electrical, fire, insulation, and other items are often constructed to lower specifications so you have a greater chance of having a problem with people living there.

The overall solution is a consumption tax, but I don't see that coming anytime soon.

I also think maybe some links from people in the southern areas that have a lot of illegals crossing the border could post some articles that get into all the damage and theft the illegals happen to do.

And getting rid of welfare would be good, but the illegals using it simply add more of a burden to everyone else.

I dislike the majority of taxes that I pay. I figure the country and all needed services could be covered with a 10% tax pretty well once all the excess is lopped off.

Until then, I will pick on illegals or anyone who happens to be getting a freebie while I and others pay for it.

And suggesting I simply stop paying taxes is not the answer.

Either we go back to the wild west that is what many imagine but never really existed, or we as a country deal with the problems together.

Right now, I consider things a tad seperated.

[Dex Sinister]

Those in favor of foreign labor are corporations who are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense when you consider that the American tax payer is virtually subsidizing the labor costs of the greedy corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, WICs, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

This would be Economic fallacy #1: The primary logic behind most of these programs [which I do not support] is that education, etc., makes for better workers and supports economic productivity.

However, if we take the logic at face value, then the American tax payer is subsidizing himself, as wages – in economic terms – are costs for the corporations, which when they are decreased lower the cost of goods and services purchased by those very same taxpayers.

The fallacy is looking at half of the economic equation and forgetting the other half. Consumers pay workers, ultimately. Increases in wages are merely transfers from one segment of the economy to the other: What one gains, the other loses. We don’t see what people lose in higher prices, and the things they didn’t buy, because we ordinarily don’t pay attention.

But one thing is for sure – when someone tells you that the way to “create prosperity” is to pay people more, regardless of whether they want farm subsidies [higher profits for farmers, losses for consumers,] or union-scale wage schemes [more spending for union-scale workers, less spending for everyone else,] or tariffs [more for the protected, less for everybody else,] or “non-exploitive wages,” one can be sure that they do not have a firm grasp of economics.

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer? You bet it would in the long run. But many Americans who do not care about America's future are consumers who favor the idea of exploiting illegal workers because it keeps commodity and service prices down in the short term.

The current economic wealth of the country is the current economic wealth of the country. Transferring less of it to a given segment, means that those who get to keep it get to spend it on other things.

"The net cost of immigration is $70 billion a year." - George Borjas, Harvard professor.

Given the cost of American bombs and fighter aircraft, is this supposed to be a large number?

"Immigration costs U.S. born workers $133 billion a year in job losses." - Economics professor George Borjas

You’ll notice that he doesn’t say “economic losses,” because if you can add “X” amount of labor to the pool of American wealth for a smaller amount of money, it benefits all Americans.

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE $55,200, [Center for Immigration Studies, 2001]. [bold added.]

So, “the average adult Mexican immigrant,” is what – 25-35 years old, maybe? That would be a life expectancy of 65? [random guess.] So, an average of 35 years into $55,200 is $1,577/yr? So we’re paying the average adult Mexican immigrant $4.40 a day to input labor into the economy at “sub-standard wages,” lowering the prices for everyone else????? Oh My GOD!!!

Overall, migrants from around the world send $30 billion to relatives back home. $23 billion last year to Latin America and the Caribbean. $10 billion was sent home to Mexico alone. Filipino workers send $6 billion a year and 10,000 cash transfers are sent to China each month, averaging $2,000 to $3,000 each.

Wealth = total-economic-productivity / money supply. If you take ~70 billion pieces of paper out of the economy, then you cause the rest of the bits of paper in circulation to be worth more.

“But it’s going out of the country!”

Yup, so what? It is bits of paper. We don’t balance trade by shipping gold reserves any more – haven’t for quite a while. If they want something for their bits of paper, they’ll have to buy something here: That’s where the money is spendable. No, it doesn’t make any difference if the buy from someone, who buys from someone, who buys from someone, who buys from here. It still comes back.

Come’on guys – Adam Smith pointed out most of this stuff in the 1700’s. Can we get over the “high prices benefit the public” idea yet?

Dex http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif

[Dex Sinister]

And my first post mentioned illegals who don't always have car insurance. I think most people would agree that the gas tax does not cover all needed road repair, so now we get illegals who if they don't pay taxes are using something others paid for.

In CA, they usually don’t have a chance to, regardless of whether they want to, because CA changed the law so the only citizens can obtain a driver’s license. Not having a license makes it kind of difficult to obtain insurance as well.

And as far as living in a garage, those are not built to the specs a house uses. Electrical, fire, insulation, and other items are often constructed to lower specifications so you have a greater chance of having a problem with people living there.

While this is in fact true, the garages are often far superior to their previous residences in Mexico. Doesn’t it seem just a bit silly to claim that people cannot improve their condition (and benefit the homeowners as well) because the accommodations are not sufficiently perfect? Is this insistence on perfection not, in fact, the exact reason affordable housing no longer exists in America?

Dex http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif

[pax]

As for the illegal Mexican cheap labor -- stop shopping for the cheapest crap you can find at Walmart, and you'll stop supporting the companies that hire the illegal aliens.
Btw, Ladybug, nobody is going to do that because we all want the illegal aliens.

We want cheap, affordable goods and we want inexpensive and plentiful fresh vegetables in the grocery store and we want affordable furniture and we want acres of retail space to shop in and we want our lawns mowed and our children babysat and our Christmas trees pruned to the proper Christmas tree shape...

All we'd have to do to get rid of the aliens is not to want any of that anymore.

But that is not going to happen. The things these people produce are things we want badly enough to buy. They come here because we pay them to come and to provide these things for us. We want what they bring us.

The only thing we don't want from them is their reliance on the welfare system we forged for ourselves and chained ourselves to. But we aren't willing to get rid of that, because we love our chains too much.

No, the aliens aren't the problem. But it is easier to blame them than it is to admit the truth to ourselves.

pax

According to the Tax Foundation, taxes now consume more than 38% of the average family's budget. That is more than is spent on food, clothing, housing, and transportation combined. Compare this to the plight of medieval serfs. They only had to give the lord of the manor one-third of their output -- and they were considered slaves. So what does that make us? – Daniel Mitchell

[Byron Quick]

Illegal aliens don't deserve welfare? Let's get rid of welfare.
They don't pay taxes? Let's get rid of taxes.


And so on.

Looked at properly, "illegal" immigrants could be the stimulus to fix so many things that are wrong with our system.


It's a movement:D

[pax]

Biere,

I asked what portion of what I earn belongs to you. Never mind what you are going to do with it -- what right do you have to take it?

You want me to answer the practical questions you asked about services like roads, hospitals, and infrastructure. I'll answer those after you have answered my question. I asked first, you know.

My question comes first in more than just the chronological sense, too. After all, if you are going to spend money on roads, you must first get that money from somewhere. Are you planning to get it from me? You'll have to explain why I owe it to you.

pax

Politicians can't give us anything without depriving us of something else. Government is not a god. Every dime they spend must first be taken from someone else. – Gary Asmus

[DNA]

Just a thought, can someone link me to said article about illegals? Cause you know, without the articles and the FACTS to back it up, sounds like someone's blowing smoke and passing some hate around. Just my humble opinion.

Dan

[faustulus]

The number of foreign born people in this country is currently about 11 percent.

In 1900 the number of foreign born in America was 15 percent.

The same arguements were used about the Irish, German, Polish, Dannish, Spanish, Belgiums, French, English, et cetera at some point in our past. Now I guess you know how the Creek, Cherokee, Blackhawk, Mohician, Seminole, Apache, Souix, Commanche, Illini, Crow, et cetera felt.

[Marko Kloos]

Lets all lose the services taxes provide. I think police, fire, jails, prisons, the military, and several other things that I consider "needs" would be at least partially funded through taxes.

Ah, the old "But how can we do XYZ without taxation?"

If you cannot concede that it is immoral to confiscate another's income at the point of a gun, then any discussion on the subject will be fruitless.

If you cannot concede that it is immoral to send men with guns to your neighbor's door to force him under threat of death to cough up money for XYZ, you will not seriously try to find and ethical and moral way to do XYZ.

Yeah, let's lose all the services taxes provide, and let the free market take care of them. If you can't finance a local PD/FD, or a steath bomber for the local militia, by passing the hat around the neighborhood to collect voluntary contributions from the community, then maybe the idea wasn't so hot to begin with.

All the "illegal immigration" arguments are centered on two arguments: that some folks don't want brown/black/yellow/non-Anglo people here, and that other folks don't want illegals to get a "free ride".

The first problem is xenophobia: it's a pervasive mental disease, and its only cure is education.

The second one has an easy fix: eliminate welfare and public assistance for everybody, not just Illegals. Nobody has a right to help themselves to the contents of my wallet and call it "compassion", whether they hail from Burlington or Tijuana.

[Bruce H]

The ultimate solution, make the entire world the United States. that would solve the illegal problem. Working here for wages is fine. Coming here for legislated benefits is unarmed robbery.

[Byron Quick]

Coming here for legislated benefits is unarmed robbery.

No sir, it is not unarmed robbery. Rather, it is collusion with the state in its armed robbery of its citizenry. But we've got a voluntary tax system (that's what the IRS calls it), you say? Tell you what, take away the power of the state to steal my money before I receive it and its power to send armed people after me for not paying...see how much volunteering I do.

[Tamara]

Americans won't allow themselves to be exploited like illegals do, but they WILL do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits.

Do you let the Johnson boy mow your lawn for $10 bucks? Don't you realize that's exploiting him?!? The Smith boy said he'd do it for $25!

Look, if somebody will pluck all the chickens you need plucked for three dollars and fifteen cents an hour, then that's exactly how much chicken-plucking is worth, all the outraged cries of Paddie Buchanan, talk radio listeners, and The Fraternal United Brotherhood Of North American Chicken-Pluckers to the contrary.

If Americans did the work that illegals do at higher pay, would that benefit the consumer?

If we raised the minimum wage to one million dollars an hour, think how much that would benefit the consumer! ;)

[Byron Quick]

"Americans won't allow themselves to exploited, yeah, right."

Take rural eastern central Georgia and rural western South Carolina as two areas to examine. Check out the unemployment rate...it's about ten percent. Go into the sawmills, check out the hispanics...ask them what they're paid...it's above minimum wage and they've got green cards. Go to the office and ask them why'd they hire resident aliens instead of true blue Americans. Answer will be that true blue Americans don't want to work in that hot or cold, wet, dangerous, HARD work sawmill. At harvest time check out the cotton gins. Same story, same answer. There's Americans working there granted. They're the ones sitting in the airconditioned control booths that control the headrigs and edgers.

[Tamara]

Lets all lose the services taxes provide. I think police, fire, jails, prisons, the military, and several other things that I consider "needs" would be at least partially funded through taxes. I wonder if the illegals get any useage from the above?

Everybody agrees that FedEx and UPS run better than the post office, private hospitals give better care than public ones, private education is better than the state-funded reeducation centers, and Disney's monorails are cleaner and better-maintained than New York subways, however, mention privatizing courts, police, fire departments or defense and folks say "it'll never work". Why would these things be an exception to what seems to be a universal rule?


"To label something as 'public' is to define it as insufficient, filthy, and dangerous; 'public restroom', for example." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Art Eatman]

I ain't bigoted; I hate everybody equally. This country is too danged crowded. My emotional comfort level would be improved if everybody not born here would go back where they came from. I agree that a bunch of really nice folks would have to leave, but the amount of freeboard on this ol' lifeboat is getting way too small.

Being a gentle soul, I don't demand that one's grandparents were born here, to allow continued residency. :D

My own simple-minded solution to immigration is that before somebody comes here, he pays somebody else to leave. I don't care what country somebody comes from; I don't care about color, race, religion, whatever.

For those protesting the illegals, I note that were there no economic incentive for "wetbacks", they wouldn't be here. That's the one area where some sort of "They oughta pass a law!" might be effective. Maybe. Probably politically infeasible.

I agree that some sort of change in welfare laws, such that they become solely of a "safety net" style, might change the job picture at the bottom of the economic pyramid.

:), Art

[Zander]

Why would these things be an exception to what seems to be a universal rule? -- TamaraThey wouldn't be, though I'd prefer to start by privatizing the voter registration and election processes first.

The sociofascists in charge of so many states and city-states these days seem almost as enamoured of the phrase 'undocumented voter' as 'undocumented worker'.

[Partisan Ranger]

This is part of the reason why I ignore polls that say that some large percentage of Americans don't want a tax cut.

Hey, 50 percent of Americans pay little to no federal income taxes. They get a largely free ride. The top 10 percent pays about 60-70 percent of taxes.

I'm in that top 10 percent, and trust me, I ain't rich!

[sonny]

Wow!...this thread has gotton pretty hot since I left!
Statistics?.........Polls?.......I don't know?.....this whole thread is kind of wacky although I did learn a thing or two.

Faustulus said:
The number of foreign born people in this country is currently about 11 percent.
In 1900 the number of foreign born in America was 15 percent.
Cool fact:)....I wonder what percent in the 1950's?
It made me rethink some stuff and the conclusion I came to was that it was wrong then and it is wrong now... although it is a fact of life,and if left alone.... I'm sure some good would come from it as well as some bad.... my point is good for who? and bad for who?
Many of my friends parents did the jobs that many illegals do when I was a young man, they were hard workers that were not rich but were able to take care of their familys.I suppose nowdays the economy needs the cheap labor but doing it behind closed doors and pretending that it's not happening is not acceptable to me.
I suppose what really gets my goat is the way that govt seems to pretend that they are fighting a war against illegals but we all know thats a crock......It needs to be adressed in an honest and aggresive manor.
Pax you said
My answer is that these people come to America because they want to earn money. We pay them, because we want them here. If we did not want them here, we would not pay them.
I'm not sure you should include me and many others in that statement .....I think it's over simplifying it.
I think Americans would rather pay a little more for the services of other Americans if afforded the option.....How will we know how much more?.....I don't know if we'll ever find out.
I don't think get_involved said anything that was racist unless I missed something and I'm sticking to my guns on this one.
The bottom line for me is that I believe the situation should be adressed more agressively by the "Lawmakers" and whatever laws we decide on as a people we should ENFORCE.
Lets make our bed and sleep in it!.....anyone agree?

[Dex Sinister]

As for the illegal Mexican cheap labor -- stop shopping for the cheapest crap you can find at Walmart, and you'll stop supporting the companies that hire the illegal aliens.

Or, if I may borrow Ladybug's idea and twist it a bit:

If you think that people who make “low” wages are being exploited, and don’t want them to suffer the economic ravages of capitalism, reform your own behavior and buy the most expensive items that you can for each and every economic choice that you make – you’ll be best off following this simple dictum, right???

Hmmmm. Why not? Is it not in your personal best interest to get just a few expensive things, rather than many more less-expensive things? How can this be? And if it isn’t a good choice for you, why is it supposed to be a good idea if lots and lots of people do the same thing?

Dex http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif

[CaesarI]

In case ya'll weren't aware of the teams already ;)

I used to be opposed to illegal immigration, then I got an education on the matter. Conservatives are s'posed to be gung-ho about Capitalism, except when we're subsidizing industries, and Unions. Truth is, both of these idea are bad ones.

Let's take off the kid gloves, and play like politicians in search of a real, feasible, solution.

Increase the amount of Mexican workers who can come to this country legally, and make it easy for them to do so.

Now for the why:

1. Currently we limit the amount of immigrants who can enter this country from any other country to IIRC 100,000 per year per country. Or some other such silly thing. This law, as I recall was passed long, long ago when this country was anti-immigrant for largely racist reasons, none of us here is a racist right?

2. The major country supplying this labor is Mexico, let's not kid ourselves. We get labor from other countries, but Mexico is the lion's share.

3. By making it easy for them to enter legally, if they want to, we reduce incentives for them to try to enter illegally. This also makes it easier for Law Enforcement to focus on those that are causing crime, and makes it more likely that those who are here to work, won't be afraid to turn in the criminals amongst their elements.

4. Such a law would be easy to pass, and would, now that Fox is el Presidente, be workable.

5. We could hammer out what rights they're entitled to, how much, if any taxes they should pay, what services they should receive, etc. This part is open to some debate, but I believe it's the part that Congress could come up with a halfway decent solution to.

6. We could have different rights for those who just wanted work visas and those who wanted to come here to live permanently.

Ideally we'd kill welfare programs all together, and thus, immigrants wouldn't be perceived as a drain (regardless of whether they are or not) and we'd all benefit from the lack of welfare. Additionally, a lot of these immigrants might become more freedom oriented, and less socialist oriented, particularly in CA, since they perceive the Dems as backing them.

-Morgan

[sonny]

Caesar1,
Thanks for offering something instead of acting like you knew it all.....you seem to be skilled at solving problems.
My brain hurts know...long day... I may not agree with your plan completely but it does offer a different perspective.

[get_involved]

Ladybug

Wow, you are really a idiot. I DO have more of a right to be here then a NON-CITIZEN. Especially a illegal one. Why do you think we have immigration laws? And look up the word racist. You don't what it means.

"If you don't want them to be "illegal", make them legal". That is the stupidest statement I have ever heard. LOL! Again do you know why we have immigration laws? Obviously not. It's not just about welfare and taxes, although that's enough a reason to object to illegals. Lack of assimilation, depression of wages for jobs that used to pay good wages, overcrowded schools, etc.

"That fact that you view everyone wanting to come here as a threat shows that". Of course I never said that. Again look up the word racist. Peabrains like you always end up calling somebody a racist when they can't carry on an intelligent conversation.

It seems many of the people who posted on this subject are for open borders and I can guess why. NONE of the arguments against my post made any sense. In fact they were very lame. You are either against illegal immigration or not. Like I said before, half the world would like to live in the U.S. Do you all really think adding about 3 BILLION people to our country is a good idea? The damage from the 10 to 15 million now, is bad enough. And with our population over 280 million, why do we need more people? Not enough traffic jams? Not enough pollution? The LAST thing we need is more people. Especially uneducated and unskilled people.

It's a good thing this board is anonymous Ladybug, because nobody knows who you really are. You make a real FOOL out of yourself.

Don't bother replying, I won't read anymore of your childish posts. I'll stick to boards that have people who are a little more rational.

[LawDog]

And this one is done.

LawDog