44magnum "punch" bullets?


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azredhawk44
June 2, 2006, 04:01 PM
Grizzly Cartridge Company offers a round for 44magnum called a "punch" bullet. It is a completely enclosed brass/copper jacketed bullet with a "hollowpoint" to make it legal for hunting that is about half a milimeter across. The bullet has an extremely flat meplat (nose) and is designed to penetrate as far as possible with zero expansion. They market it for grizzly protection, but I could see its use in pistol hunting too, for larger game such as elk or moose.

They charge $65 for 20 rounds. Ouch.

Anyone know where I can purchase these bullets to load my own 44mag ammo with punch bullets?

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Frohickey
June 2, 2006, 04:11 PM
Expansion via hydrostatic shock on relatively low velocity handgun rounds is not guaranteed. I didn't know there was a law about only using hollowpoints for hunting.

Most personal defense hollowpoint rounds fail to expand. Most times, bits of clothing get stuck in the point, and the bullet just goes on through or deforms and takes the round-a-bout way of getting through.

For hunting, don't you want penetration into the vitals and bloodloss? I bet a deer would bleed twice as fast from two holes than one hole.

rustymaggot
June 2, 2006, 04:17 PM
whats so special about these? looks like brass jacket but other than that, whats the big deal thats worth a couple dollars a shot?

ChristopherG
June 2, 2006, 07:47 PM
with a "hollowpoint" to make it legal for hunting

I'd be very surprised if a hollowpoint, real or imaginary, was required for hunting in Arizona. People have been shooting game with cast lead semi-wadcutters and bullets of similar design for a long time. If I wanted to work up a hunting load for a .44, I'd probly start with a nice big meplated bullet like the 250 gr. Keith or the 300 gr Gas checked bullets from leadhead bullets, at proshootpro.com (go with the gas check if you really want a thumper). Or, use the 270 gr. Gold Dot Soft point from Speer. Awesome from a carbine, probly no better'n a SWC from a handgun (though without the leading you might get from that plain base Keith).

Hook686
June 2, 2006, 09:42 PM
If you get that excited about the Grizzly product, you just might wet your pants over the Buffalo Bore offerin, of a .44 magnum +P+ ...

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#44P



340 grains, and twice the energy ..... geeez louise .... I'd be afraid to pull the trigger .... can you just feel that in a Ruger Red Hawk ?

RyanM
June 3, 2006, 01:37 PM
In some states you need hollowpoints. I think PA says bullets must be all lead, hollowpoint or softpoint, or "otherwise designed to expand."

paul105
June 4, 2006, 12:10 AM
http://www.beltmountain.com/

I didn't see any .44s listed -- might just be an oversight. Last I heard, these were about $1.00 each. Give them a call if you're interested.

BluesBear
June 4, 2006, 06:47 AM
Yes the Belt Mountain Bullets are rather pricey. but then again they are machine turned, by hand, one at a time.

http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

ChristopherG
June 4, 2006, 06:33 PM
Hmm. Based on those gunblast writeups, these certainly don't seem designed to expand in any way; quite the contrary.

BluesBear
June 4, 2006, 11:09 PM
The bullet has an extremely flat meplat (nose) and is designed to penetrate as far as possible with zero expansion.

RyanM
June 5, 2006, 02:48 AM
Whoops, I must have misread the law. Re-reading it, the relevant laws are:

Sec. 2308. Unlawful devices and methods.

(a) General rule. - Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any person to hunt or aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt any game or wildlife through the use of:

(1) An automatic firearm or similar device.

(2) A semiautomatic rifle or pistol.

(3) Reserved.

(4) A semiautomatic shotgun or magazine shotgun for hunting or taking small game, furbearers, turkey or unprotected birds unless the shotgun is plugged to a two-shell capacity in the magazine.

(5) Any device operated by air, chemical or gas cylinder by which a projectile of any size or kind can be discharged or propelled.



Sec. 2322. Prohibited devices and methods.

(a) General rule. - Except as otherwise provided in this title or commission regulation, no person shall hunt, kill or take or attempt, aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt, kill or take any big game, except wild turkey, with any of the following devices or methods:

(1) Any device other than a centerfire or muzzle-loading firearm or bow and arrow.

(2) Any automatic or semiautomatic firearm, except that any semiautomatic firearm modified to permit one shell in the chamber and no more than four shells in a magazine may be used by a person who suffered an amputation or lost the total use of one or both hands.

(3) Any firearm propelling more than one projectile per discharge.

(4) Any projectile which is not all lead or which is not designed to expand on contact.

(5) When any big game is swimming.

(6) By any other method or device which is not specifically authorized or permitted by this title or commission regulation.

(b) Penalty. - A violation of this section is a summary offense of the fifth degree.

(c) Contraband. - Any big game killed contrary to this section is contraband.


PA laws are crazy. No caliber or barrel length restrictions, just gotta use a centerfire with all lead or expanding bullets. So hardcast lead bullets are legal, Punch Bullets are not. A 5.5mm Velo Dog revolver is legal, yet a .50 caliber Quackenbush airgun is not. A bolt gun in .10 Eichelberger (yes, .10) is legal, but a BAR (one of the new ones) is not. Crazy.

BluesBear
June 5, 2006, 07:32 AM
Pennsylvania is a lovely state. I have been there many times.
But I don't think there is a lot of dangerous game hunting done there.
So there isn't much need for Punch bullets there.

The Punch bullets seem to have been developed for self-defense against large dangerous game in close quarters.
I can see where they'd be a perfect match for the .45-70 Marlin Guide Rifle when used by a hunting guide as a back-up/protection role. Sort of like a modern day Howdah.


I was dang nce of the PA powers-that-be to allow the use of those evil semi-automatic firearms for handicaps people. :banghead: 'cause we're all afraid of roving bands of street hoodlums carrying .270 Win Remington 742 rifles.

ChristopherG
June 5, 2006, 02:39 PM
Any projectile which is not all lead or which is not designed to expand on contact.

Yup; this provision makes the Punch Bullets illegal for hunting in PA. But then, as Blues Bear points out, you probably don't have TOO many Cape Buffalo coming at you boss-down, there.

RyanM
June 5, 2006, 11:25 PM
Yeah, but we do have black bears. Of course, hardcast 180 gr .357 mag solids are perfectly adequate for those.

Still, punch bullets would probably be useful for hunting if you're trying to go for a very low recoil load. A very heavy solid .44 magnum or .45-70 bullet at low to moderate velocity would be more than adequate for deer at short range, but easier on the shoulder than a high powered round. More of a shove than a punch. A hardcast flatnose lead bullet might "smear" a bit if it hit bone, but I don't think a Punch Bullet would. More efficient hole making if it retains the sharp shoulder and flat meplat.

Oh, well.

mbartel
June 6, 2006, 08:19 PM
IIRC the Belt Mountain punch bullets are machined from solid brass bar stock.
They are 100% brass from extruded bar. I remember reading it on another forum a while back, so I hope I got my facts straight....

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