I'm not sure if I I was out of line ...What do you think?


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sonny
April 28, 2003, 08:01 PM
A while back I Emailed springfield armory with this
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As you probably already know , In NYC we are not allowed to buy your M1A rifle.
Are you in contact with the NYC rifle shotgun division on this topic?
Are there any versions of your rifle available to me in NYC.
I realize that ultimately I will have to research this in depth on my own , but I would appreciate any input you may have on this subject.
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The response was this

Dear Sir:
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Can you please provide us with documentation on which M1A rifles are prohibited for purchase in New York?

Thank you and best regards,
Donna
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My response was this
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Donna,
I hope you are kidding?.......I send you guys an E-mail asking a question and you reply 3 weeks later asking me basically the same question I asked you?......no problem.....if you all are not interested in our business in NYC then suit yourselves.
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Was I asking to much?....are you suprised that a major firearm manufacturer had no idea that a major city like NYC prohibited it's civilians from purchasing an M1A ?......Was I rude?.....It's been months and I never got a response from my last (semi rude) Email.
Maybe I was hoping that they would take it upon themselves and make a NYC legal version or at least find out what exactly the reason is that they are prohibited for sale in NYC.

I don't know ......maybe I'm just a rude New Yorker :evil:

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Peetmoss
April 28, 2003, 08:05 PM
You were out of line. You didn't ask a question to start off with you told them there rifle was banned. They simply responded asking you to give them documentation of this. Sounded to me like they didn't know it or you were miss informed.

sonny
April 28, 2003, 08:07 PM
You may be right....That's why I asked ....but there's something I don't like about their response?

Peetmoss
April 28, 2003, 08:24 PM
Well you came off with an attitude and it got even worse with your response.

My suggestion would be to appoligize for the attitude, and say that from your understanding the M1A is illegal in NYC. Explain were you got your information. Then ask if they may help clarify this situation for you.

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2003, 08:24 PM
Actually, I doubt whether manufacturers could keep up with every state, county, and municipal prohibition, and I sincerely doubt the aforesaid states, counties, and municipalities would trouble themselves to inform manufacturers of their newest laws—if, indeed, such may be called "laws."

tommytrauma
April 28, 2003, 08:30 PM
Were you out of line? Yah. She was civil, you were rude. Sounds like you might want to take a look at your sense of entitlement. Not everyone is going to be up on the laws for your area. Getting snippy when they attempt to make themselves more knowledgable in a subject you brought to their attention is out of line.

Goet
April 28, 2003, 09:11 PM
Hey! He's from New York. They're rude by nature. Cut him some slack.:neener:

zahc
April 28, 2003, 09:15 PM
*cuts sonny some slack*

Autolite
April 28, 2003, 09:18 PM
When dealing via e-mail with companies, the government, or anybody you don't know personaly, I've found it to be to advantage to be 'over nice' in any correspondance. It will increase you chances of getting a response in a timely manner. Remember that it is YOU that needs something from THEM so being extra polite is a means to the desired end ...

AR-10
April 28, 2003, 09:28 PM
A few weeks ago I e-mailed Springfield Armory seeking help finding a pin for a target sight that broke on my V-16 Longslide. Since they did not manufacture the sight, I did not expect them to have parts, but I thought they might be able to tell me where to inquire.

They never returned my e-mail.:confused:












About a week later I got a big envelope in the mail from them with the part I needed, no charge.:D






Oh, yeah. I used Autolite's method of communicating with them.:neener:

c_yeager
April 29, 2003, 02:49 AM
Are there any versions of your rifle available to me in NYC.

While he may have neglected the QUESTION MARK on the end of this it sure sounds like a question to me. And their reply was:

Can you please provide us with documentation on which M1A rifles are prohibited for purchase in New York?

Frankly if i ask a company if any of thier rifles are available for sale in my state and they respond by asking me if any of their rifles are available for sale in my state im gonna be a little peeved. And yes i would expect them to know the answer to that question.

PATH
April 29, 2003, 02:57 AM
Most New Yorkers are not rude. They are just overwhelmed by it all!

Sonny,

There is a possibility that the folks at Springfield really don't know.
You did get a response from them even though it was not as helpful as you may have liked.

winwun
April 29, 2003, 07:47 AM
We tend to think along the lines of the "Golden Rule", but actually human interaction is based more on a "tit-for-tat" rule. You are treated in the same manner as you treat others. Not in all cases, but generally.

280PLUS
April 29, 2003, 07:53 AM
why not just send them the documentation they ask for? couldn't you find it on the net and email it to them?

i'm not sure it's the mfg's job to know all the little quirky laws city by city.

and yes, the old adage about getting more flies with honey than vinegar probably holds true in this case.

i mean, who would you rather talk to?

this guy :cuss:

or this guy :D

gk1
April 29, 2003, 11:53 AM
And of course, it's always the customer's responsibility to be nice to the people he'd like to give money to, and to do all of the research necessary to make it possible. :rolleyes:

I agree with the other posters that you'd likely have better luck going out of your way to be polite, I agree with you that their response, while civil, was idiotic. Since email communication seems overly difficult in this case, perhaps a phone call would get the desired result?

George

Double Naught Spy
April 29, 2003, 12:04 PM
sonny, you are too much!!!

You write Springfield and tell them that you are not allowed to buy their M1A rifle in NYC. You then ask if they have any versions of the rifle you just told them was banned that you could buy in the city that banned them. Essentially, you are saying the M1A is banned in NYC and then ask if they have an M1A that you can buy in NYC. That is just wacked!
Of course, the clincher was your response where you got all mad at Donna. You were the one requesting information and you get mad at Donna for asking clarification from you on your confusing initial request.

I think you were trying to get information from the horse's mouth, but in this case, you were at the wrong end of the animal.
Why would you with Springfield for legality questions on ownership in your city? If you didn't want to go through the pain of the city government to sort this out, the blatantly obvious place to find out what you want to know specifically in regard to what you can or cannot buy would be to go to a NYC gun dealer and they would be the correct end of the horse to ask. They will know exactly what they are or are not allowed to sell.

keyhole
April 29, 2003, 12:16 PM
In SA's defense, (and probably not needed), but they have provided great service. One of my range buddies had a problem with a scope, and had it sent in. He kept having the same problem, re-occurring, so many time that the president( I believe) called him, and took the matter over himself. It was finally rectified to my buddies satisfaction, and he now swears by their service.
Sometimes you just need a little patience. GNR

Flashpoint
April 29, 2003, 12:19 PM
Frankly if i ask a company if any of thier rifles are available for sale in my state and they respond by asking me if any of their rifles are available for sale in my state im gonna be a little peeved. And yes i would expect them to know the answer to that question.

It's not up to the company to keep track of all the different firearm laws throughout the world. It's up to the dealer to abide by those laws. The company just makes the product, if you really want to know about availablity of a particular firearm, ask a dealer in the given area.

Your first letter was reasonable.

Your second letter was rude.

I'll echoe what has already been said
"You can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar"

Walther P99
April 29, 2003, 07:00 PM
In my search for my next CCW, I've emailed many gun manufacturers/suppliers/importers for info and I've gotten a response from all.

My approach is to be nice, polite, and friendly; none of which you were in your second response. It appears she just asked for clarification of which models were banned - I certainly wouldn't expect gun companies to keep up with all gun laws everywhere. It probably would have been easier for her to give you the legal models if she knew which ones weren't.

Why not just answer her question/request and if it appears she misunderstood your initial question just clarify in another follow-up message? I think you'll get a lot further and will be more satisfied.

sonny
April 29, 2003, 07:52 PM
Wow you guy's are rough:D .....what about this part of my question?Are you in contact with the NYC rifle shotgun division on this topic?
Or this part
I realize that ultimately I will have to research this in depth on my own , but I would appreciate any input you may have on this subject.
Does anyone think that her response was simply a quick pass the buck back to me response?.....I do.
I stated clearly that ultimately it was my responsibility...didn't I?
And yes I was clearly rude in my second email....because if someone from california asked the same question they may have gotten a response like this.
YES WE HAVE A CALIFORNIA LEGAL VERSION....HERE IT IS
http://www.impactguns.com/store/springfield_ma9226ca.html
If you guys from gun friendly states knew what we poor folks in NON gun friendly states had to go through maybe you would understand..........I don't know?
Anyway....you all make me sound like an idiot .....of course it's not up to the company ...but it would be nice if they did know about it and that was what the question was all about....hence the appreciate any input part of the question.

blades67
April 29, 2003, 07:54 PM
I'm not sure if I I was out of line ...What do you think?

I think you were out of line and owe Donna an apology.

sonny
April 29, 2003, 07:58 PM
When hell freezes over:evil:

coonan357
April 29, 2003, 08:17 PM
Sonny IMO you owe Donna an apology , Right now Springfield Armory is in a bid to help us residents of Illinois to try stopping the rath of King Ritchie and his stupid laws asthey might make this manufactorer move its business or go out of business , as a Resident You Should know the laws of your state when Pertaining to firearms not manufactors, its Called user responsability ,you should find out why , Why didn'y you e-mail the NYC RSD ?? they should be more than willing to help you as a citizen .

sonny
April 29, 2003, 09:03 PM
Coonan357....with all due respect do you actually think I'm gonna apologize?
Man!..... you take this seriously...anyway...here's the list provided by the nyc rifle shotgun division.....have fun reading and you will find Sprinfield Armory M1a in there somewhere.
For City of New York: Title 38 of the Rules of the City of New York, § 17-01. Assault Weapons Designated. (a) Pursuant to Subparagraph 7 of Paragraph a of Subdivision 16 of § 10-301 of the New York City Administrative Code, the following makes and models of weapons are determined to be particularly suitable for military and not sporting purposes and are determined to be within the statutory definition of assault weapon as set forth in § 10‑301(16) of the New York City Administrative Code: (1) Models Calico M-900 carbine, Calico M-100 carbine manufactured by American Industries, (2) Models Lightning 25-22, AP-74 manufactured by AMT, (3) Model AR-180 manufactured by Armalite, (4) Model .223 SAC manufactured by Austrian Automatic Arms, (5) Models M-1-SA, 1927-A1-SA manufactured by Auto Ordinance, (6) Model Light 50 82-AL manufactured by Barrett Firearms, (7) Models AR70, BM 59 manufactured by Beretta, (8) Model Assault Rifle manufactured by Bushmaster Firearms, (9) Model SR-88 manufactured by Charter Firearms Industries, (10) Models AR-15 manufactured by Colt, (11) Models MAX-1, MAX-2, K1A1, K2, USAS-12 shotgun manufactured by Daewoo Industries, (12) Models C90, C100, C450 manufactured by DMAX Industries, (13) Model MK-IV carbine manufactured by ENCOM, (14) Models FN-FAL, FN-LAR, FN-FNC manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, (15) Model MAS 223 manufactured by FAMAS, (16) Models AT-9 carbine, AT-22 carbine manufactured by Feather Industries, (17) Models XC-450 AUTO OCARBINE, XC-220, XC-900 manufactured by Federal Engineering Corporation, (18) Models SPAS-12, LAW-12 pump auto shotguns manufactured by Franchi, (19) Model GC HIGH TECH carbine manufactured by Goncz Company, (20) Models HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, PSG-1, G3-SA manufactured by Heckler & Koch, (21) Models UZI-carbine, MINI-UZI carbine, GALIL-ARM, GALIL-AR, GALIL-SAR, GALIL-SNIPER manufactured by Israeli Military Industries, (22) Model PM-30 PARATROOPER manufactured by Iver Johnson, (23) Models AP-74, AP-84, AP-80, AP-85, SPECTRE AUTO carbine manufactured by Mitchell Arms, (24) Models of the Kalashnikov-type semiautomatic, including those manufactured by Norinco (China) and Hungarian Arms, (25) Models NDM-86 SNIPER RIFLE manufactured by Norinco, (26) Model M-14S manufactured by Polytech Industries, (27) Model MINI-14/5F manufactured by Ruger, (28) Models 57-AMT, PE-57, SG550SP, SG551SP manufactured by SIGArms, (29) Model L1A1A manufactured by Small Arms Factory, Australia, (30) Models BM-59, SAR-48, SAR-58, SAR-3, M-1A manufactured by Springfield Armory, (31) Model MK-6 manufactured by Sterling, (32) Model AUG-SA manufactured by Steyer Daimler-Pusch, (33) Models M-76-SA, M-78-SA manufactured by Valmet Corporation, and (34) Model NIGHTHAWK manufactured by Weaver Arms

Once again I asked if SA had for ANY info or communications with NYC rifle shotgun division....or possibly a situation in the past where they modified a rifle (no flash suppresor or possibly an available five round magazine that would be legal in NYC)
NYC gun laws are incredibly complicated and often contridict themselves so I was looking for an edge.....does that make sense to you?.......I could go on and on about this and add many more reasons that I went the EMAIL route but I am quite sure that eventually someone will respond by saying....just move

tommytrauma
April 29, 2003, 09:12 PM
I'm not sure I was out of line ...What do you think?
Coonan357....with all due respect do you actually think I'm gonna apologize?
When hell freezes over

Sonny, what was your purpose in starting this thread and asking this question? You seem to already have firm opinions about your actions, despite your opening "question".

sonny
April 29, 2003, 09:51 PM
TOMMY TRAUMA.
My purpose?.....Gee?.... to get some opinions.....let's see, a few High Roaders felt that springfield armory could have been a little more aware and helpfull with their CUSTOMERS.
When people start this mightier than thou nonsense It gives me the creeps.....my god ...It's just a gun forum.....and I'll give an apology to anyone that I think deserves one.
I don't remember asking anyone if they think I should apologize.
Donna is probably an overworked employee....at least thats my guess......and I WILL find out on my own just like I STATED in my original question to SA........INPUT IS WHAT I ASKED FOR.
Tommy you sound pretty sure of yourself ....others disagree with you ......be carefull what questions YOU ask in the future....someone may disagree.....bye bye

tommytrauma
April 30, 2003, 09:41 AM
My purpose?.....Gee?.... to get some opinionsBut why? You obviously already feel sure about your actions, despite the title of this thread. You’re not listening to anyone who disagrees with your actions, so why solicit opinions?.....let's see, a few High Roaders felt that springfield armory could have been a little more aware and helpfull with their CUSTOMERS.True. I feel that way myself. BUT, the question you posed was regarding YOUR actions, not theirs. Kinda renders opinions regarding SA’s response moot, or at least peripheral to the issue at hand.
When people start this mightier than thou nonsense It gives me the creeps.....my god ...It's just a gun forumMightier than thou? You asked, I answered, you became defensive. Sorry you feel that I’m acting “mightier then thou” because I thought your actions were counterproductive. I’m still stumped as to why you’re soliciting opinions when you don’t want to hear them.....and I'll give an apology to anyone that I think deserves one.
I don't remember asking anyone if they think I should apologize. And I don’t remember suggesting that you should. Have I become your scapegoat for anyone who said something you didn’t like?
Donna is probably an overworked employee....at least thats my guess......and I WILL find out on my own just like I STATED in my original question to SA........INPUT IS WHAT I ASKED FOR.And it’s all that you received. You sound pretty unhappy with it though.
Tommy you sound pretty sure of yourself As far as believing that being polite and courteous makes theing go better, yup. ....others disagree with you ......be carefull what questions YOU ask in the future....someone may disagreeI hope so, I learn a lot that way, and it generally makes me THINK. Discourse, the give and take of ideas, disagreement and debate are good things. The trick is being able to separate criticism of ones actions or beliefs from personal attack. You seem to feel that I’m attacking you. Sorry you feel that way. Try something though, really think about my question. Why solicit opinions when you feel so sure about the answer already? Why become so defensive when someone agrees with you, and says that you were out of line, when thats exactly what you asked? ......bye bye See Ya.

Mal H
April 30, 2003, 10:00 AM
And so, with the ending of the final episode, we shall close the book and go on to other endeavors.

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