[s&w 24]

being about the same price and wieght depending on the pistol you get wich makes the better B.U.G. the j frame sized revovlver or a small self loading handgun?

[jc2]

J-frame (or even better Colt Detective Special)

[miko]

J-frame hammerless revolver

You can give it to someone without any explaining how to use it.
You can shoot it repeatedly when encumbered - from your pocket or while grappling with some. In autos any interference with a slide may prevent the proper cycling and deprive you of a second shot.
You can shoot it limp-wristed (wounded, weak hand, etc.) unlike some autos that would fail to cycle.
You can keep shooting the rest of the cartriges if one misfires.

miko

[RyanM]

I say either a J-frame or a Glock 26. Both are about the same size, and both are very reliable. If you go any smaller, you run into problems. Autos become less reliable (especially considering operator-induced errors, like limp-wristing), revolvers become limited to single action, and derringers have very small capacities.

[TOADMAN]

J-Frame...S&W 642/442..

[bpisler]

Another vote for the revolver as a BUG.I carry
a revolver as a primary piece and like having
a back up with the same manual of arms
as my primary.

[JERRY]

depends on the carry mode......

[nitesite]

+1 for miko.

I am fortunate that I could purchase whatever BUG I want, and it's been a S&W 442 for years now. It was a primary but now is usually a back-up.

[Snarlingiron]

Having recently completed a combative pistol course, I thought I would weigh in with what we were taught, and that I basically agree with. A couple of things that were studied in detail were the infamous FBI Miami shootout, and the saga of Lance Thomas the LA jeweler that successfully defended himself against 11 bg's, killing 6 of them. A number of things were pointed out in the FBI debacle, one of the most telling being that the 2 agents that were killed were both gunned down while trying to reload revolvers. In the case of Lance Thomas he was successful with revolvers because he had multiple guns fully loaded within quick and easy reach. If reloading them had been necessary, he would more than likely be dead today. Read Massad Ayoob's excellent commentary here :
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205 .

The instructor of the course emphasized over and over that the only way to sucessfully bring a perpatrator to a halt is to place multiple hits into the area between the nipples and the chin. Quickly and accurately. The more rounds that you have readily available the better off you are. He also told us that to his knowlege no one had ever successfully reloaded a revolver in a combat situation. I don't know the accuracy of this statement, I'm just regurgitating what was said. His take is that revolvers are basically obsolete. They are too delicate, and far too difficult to reload under stress. Even with a speed loader.


With regard to what has already been said the statement that interference with the slide could prevent making a second shot, I agree. But what about the 10th or the 12th shot? Revolvers are delicate. Drop one on a concrete surface, and it may or may not work. As far as someone knowing how to operate it, I can't imagine anyone having a problem with one of my Glocks. Pull the trigger, it goes bang. It can't get much simpler. While I own three revolvers, I never carry them. While in the minority, obviously, I weigh in on the side of the Auto. I'm not saying a revolver can't be used effectively, just that for me there are more pluses in the auto column.

[MillCreek]

I just read the Ayoob article, and I note that Mr. Lance Thomas had four gun battles over three years with 11 suspects. At first, reading your post, I thought he took on 11 people at once, with revolvers, no less!

[Snarlingiron]

I just read the Ayoob article, and I note that Mr. Lance Thomas had four gun battles over three years with 11 suspects. At first, reading your post, I thought he took on 11 people at once, with revolvers, no less!

Sorry, I guess it wasn't stated very well. After re-reading it, it does sound that way. You are correct. 4 different incidents.

[TMM]

AUTO! no doubt.

With a snubby, you have 5 rounds of .38 (.357 will probably kick too much no?) or a smaller load. it's relatively slim with a big bulge where the cylinder is. clumsy reloading.

With an auto, it's thin, simple operation (pull trigger, bang, drop mag, reload, bang) the timing isn't going to get screwed up. you probably will have 6 or 8 rounds of a decent load (.380 or even 9mm in case of glock 26 or Keltec P11, for example)

~TMM

[Ala Dan]

I think it really depends on the users experience with the type of handgun
he/or she carries. With semi-auto's, knowing how to clear a malfunction is
of major importance; especially so for females* (which I will cover later) or
persons with little or NO knowledge of a semi autos operation. As already
eluded too, a revolver can be very fragile if dropped on concrete. A bent
ejector rod, and folks you are out of business. Also, drop a Glock and you
are likely to break off the front sight. A revolver (unless its a .22LR) can
fire 6,7, or 8 rounds during a hostile encounter; whereas a semiauto can
fire 10 to 18 rounds from one standard magazine, provided of course that
the weapon is of reputable manufacture. With over 20 year's experience
as a former LEO, I have carried many BUG's; mostly small S&W J-frame
revolver's. Back then, Seecamp's fine little LWS-32ACP was extremely
hard too find, and Kel-Tec's weren't even thought of. Colt's pocket
auto's were extremely popular in police circles, about this time. All of
us will agree on one thing for sure, for a BUG "lighter is better". With
that said, I think the newly designed 642-2 (a knock off of the old
original model 42, w/o a grip safety) is the best thing going, as a
"last resort, defensive weapon".

Now, for illustration purposes here (and something I teach and preach
on a regular basis); my first question for all female first time handgun
purchaser's is: "How much handgun experience do you have, Mam"?
Then the scenario unfolds like this:

Good Guy vs. Bad Guy-

Suppose you are out late at night, approxiamtely 2130 hrs and you
just remembered that you need too go over to the Galleria, and pick
up a birthday present for a party that is scheduled for tomorrow.
You arrive at the Galleria, and park in the parking deck. I'm a BAD
GUY, I see you drive up alone; get out of your car and start towards
the entrance. I jump out from behind a structural post and grab a
arm; with intentions on dragging you too my car, and leaving with
you. My mind is set, I'm gonna have MY way with you. In the mean
time, while I'm dragging you by the arm, you are able to retrieve your
favorite semi-auto (most likely a .380 auto); you place it into my
rib cage and fire the round that has already been chambered. Oops!
your gun has a major malfunction, and has the spent cartridge that
has stove piped in the ejection port of the auto. What on earth are
you going too do, as it takes two hands to clear a jam. And guess
what, the round you fired into my rib cage didn't incapacitate me;
or even knock me too the ground, as I am very close to making a
HIT with you. Screaming will do no good, as there is NO ONE that
is in a 1/2 acre radius of us; so I'm fixing to leave with you bound
for the nearest remote location.

Now, had you been armed with a reputable five or six shot snubby
you could have continously pulled the trigger until all rounds were
expended into my side; most likely resulting in me being DOS. So,
keep this scenario in mind when making a choice; and ask yourself
which firearm would you trust your life to.

[10-Ring]

For a BUG, I prefer something ultra reliable, simple & effective...j-frame :D

[MCgunner]

I don't think it really matters so long as it goes bang and shoots straight and is in a good combat caliber. It's a BUG, not a primary. Why would I care how much fire power it has if I'm carrying a primary. The BUG has to go bang, no jams, and that suggests a revolver to me, but like I say, whatever your comfortable shooting. You may not be good with DA and not want to learn. I notice a lot of people like that posting. It's just what you require in a gun to shoot it accurately and effectively. If you can't shoot a J frame hammerless because you can't deal with the trigger, what good is it? You're better off with a LW officers ACP or other single action in an ankle holster or something. Nobody here can tell you what you need. Only you know what you can shoot well.

Since I'm not a cop, I don't carry a back up, well, unless you count my mini .22 which I always have on me somewhere. I think if I was a cop, I'd carry one auto in a pocket somewhere on the uniform and one revolver in an ankle holster, my duty rig and I'd probably have that NAA mini on me somewhere. Of course I'd want a shotgun and rifle in the trunk of the car or perhaps in the front in a rack.

[DWARREN123]

Something similar to your main defensive firearm, easier to get ammo for one caliber and should operate similar also, makes switching back and forth easier.

[Brian Williams]

The best of both worlds, an Auto cartridge and a Revolver.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27501&d=1123593231
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27813&d=1124400787


A number of folks have asked about this being a custom 45 Revolver, it is not a 45 it is a blend of a S&W 642 lightweight Centennial normally in 38 Spec and a cylinder from a S&W 940 a stainless steel Centennial. It is a great gun but pricy as most custom guns are and I have to be careful that I limit my usage of normal 9mm to just a few to verify POI=POA and practice with the 38 cylinder and some 38 pressure loads in 9mm(which are real wimpy) because it is not a +p frame.

[jc2]

A number of things were pointed out in the FBI debacle, one of the most telling being that the 2 agents that were killed were both gunned down while trying to reload revolvers.
BAD, BAD information.

Snarlingiron, you either need to get your stories or find an instructor that knows a lot a more about the subject.

The two agents that were killed (Grogan and Dove) were both armed with autoloaders. Dove was indeed killed with an empty high capacity autoloader. Both of the bad-guys, Mattix and Platt, were taken out of the fight by agents armed with revovlers (.38 Specials, no less--the famed FBI load). Mattix was taken out early on and was not a serious factor in the fight. Platt, who murdered Grogan and Dove, was killed by Mireles after a successfully reloading his revolver in a combat situation. To be honest, about all you can really learn from the Miami fight is don't bring a pistol to a rifle fight, penetration does matter.

You probably need to ask for your money back and take a course from a qualified, knowledgable professional--at least one that knows his posterior from the proverbial hole in the ground.

[atlctyslkr]

I think Mr. Williams up there hit it best. Psychologically getting around the reliability debate of autos vs revolvers is tough. Knowing that a revolver will "revolve" as fast as I can pull the trigger even if there is a misfire is a comforting thought. Also knowing that if there is misfire, no corrective action is required. Small frame revolvers that will shoot popular auto cartridges (even if it means moon clips) is the solution. It takes away that problem of ammo interchangeability. If your primary auto hoses up you can still manually unload your magzines and load into your backup revolver. Originally the backup served the purpose of what to do when your primary runs dry due to a shootout. Now with the popularity of autos that is still an issue (maybe less so) but the issue of failure to fire is much more prevelant. There have been many artciles written about law enforemcent officers dying because they were trying to reaload a revolver. How many have died due to an auto failing?

[Brian Williams]

I would love to see a K frame centennial lightweight, 5 shot in 40 S&W with a 2.5 inch barrel cut for moonclips. It would make for a great BUG for those Lawmen who have to carry an Auto in 40 S&W.

[Black Snowman]

I went with the Kel-Tec P3AT primarily because of how thin it was. I wanted an "always" gun and I put my minimum power level at a .380. After checking all my options the Kel-Tec was the last gun standing. Concealability, weight, firepower, and affordability it won easily. Only thing it chokes on is in the reliability department. I get the occasional failure to feed but it's still better than nothing in the circumstances where my knives wouldn't do the trick.

[s&w 24]

I was hoping for a strong argument to sway me one way or the other. I think I'll end up with my original plan of finding a 9X19 revolver and buying either a
kel-tec PF-9 or a Kahr and then just shoot and carry them both till I find out wich one works best for me.

[wheelgunslinger]

good idea. Only you can know for sure what is best for you for a BUG.
My primary is a wheelgun and my BUG is an auto. weird huh?

[MCgunner]

You probably need to ask for your money back and take a course from a qualified, knowledgeable professional--at least one that knows his posterior from the proverbial hole in the ground.

Exactly my thoughts when I read the original post.:D

I went with the Kel-Tec P3AT primarily because of how thin it was. I wanted an "always" gun and I put my minimum power level at a .380. After checking all my options the Kel-Tec was the last gun standing. Concealability, weight, firepower, and affordability it won easily. Only thing it chokes on is in the reliability department. I get the occasional failure to feed but it's still better than nothing in the circumstances where my knives wouldn't do the trick.

The P3 AT is a reliable weapon, but you are apparently feeding it something it doesn't like. I won't trust my life to ANY gun that is not reliable, just plain and simple, no arguments. If it jams, it's sold, gone, out of my collection if I can't find a round it works with.

This is a problem with some autos and especially small ones, finding a combat effective RELIABLE round. I have a Grendel P12 and a Kel Tec P11 that never jam, 100 percent reliability, so long as I shoot ammo they like. The Grendel will cough on that new TMJ exposed lead range/practice Winchester stuff, hang on the feed ramp now and then. That's NOT good in a defense scenario. It has never jammed on Hornady XTP 90 grain stuff, my carry ammo.

This is the reason I like small revolvers for back up work, they ALWAYS WORK and cannot jam. You can argue their fragility, perhaps, but I've never had one fail to go boom and if you get a dud under the hammer, you don't need "second strike capability" or "tap rack bang", just pull the trigger again.

Revolvers work, revolvers are effective, and we're talking back up here, not primary. If you need your backup, it means your primary quit functioning. That's not as hard a scenario to fathom to me as a revolver stopping function, frankly. Even if I was a cop I'd have a revolver on me somewhere. As an armed civilian, I often carry a small J frame size revolver as a primary and I ain't worried about needing a quick reload when 99% of gun fights involve less than 2 rounds. You can't spray and pray with a revolver. You must learn marksmanship. I realize that's a chore that some can't come to grips with, but if you're going to carry a weapon, you need to know how to use it. Sometimes I really think autos encourage poor marksmanship, the spray and pray syndrome.

good idea. Only you can know for sure what is best for you for a BUG.
My primary is a wheelgun and my BUG is an auto. weird huh?

Nah, you could think of it as your primary will always go bang, but if you wind up in a multiple assailant fight behind cover, might be better to switch to the auto. :D I can see that logic, anyway, especially if the wheelgun is a .357 magnum.

[magyars4]

Brian Williams,
Very nice looking 45 ACP wheelgun. Can you tell me about it? Is it hamerless? Custom job?
Thanks

[miko]

If a slide of a semo-auto is pushed even slightly out of battery - by 1) pressing the barrel into the BG's ribcage or 2) him grabbing and pushing the slide - you may be deprived even of the first shot, never mind the second one.

Of course in 2) the BG can grab the revolver's cylinder and prevent it from rotating - but it is much less likely than him grabbing the barrel.

miko

[brufener]

As an armed civilian, I often carry a small J frame size revolver as a primary and I ain't worried about needing a quick reload when 99% of gun fights involve less than 2 rounds.

That is the key, figuring out what you need. I once read a post by a cop who had used a j-frame to rush a holed-up suspect (there were other cops with him). He complained that the j-frame was no good, not enough shots or power. well duh! Seems like a no-brainer to me. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who thinks j-frames are a good choice for rushing holed-up criminals. I'll take a rifle or shotgun myself.

I'm no cop, just an average white collar guy. I'm not concerned abouut chasing criminals, just staying alive. For me, the chances of me getting robbed are small. The chances of me getting robbed by mutliple assailants are even smaller. The chances of me getting robbed by multiple assailants who will continue to attack after I put up armed resistance are so small they aren't even worth thinking about. J-frame is enough for me. As a bonus it is small enough that I don't have to worry about it printing, or being too bullky.

Other posters have talked about small autos. Small autos have their strong points, but they are more susceptible to limp-wristing than regular size autos. So when you are being attacked and under stress you'll need to make sure you have a good grip on your gun if you have a small auto.

[rtl]

Whichever works best....for you. For me, I have to ditto 10-ring, a simple and reliable j-frame suits me well.

[DBR]

I like my SW 342 38spl (no longer made) loaded with Corbon 110gr DPX +P copper HP at 1100fps-12oz loaded. My "always" gun.

Backs up what I carry on the street G32 357SIG loaded with Speer 125gr HP at 1400fps.

Last ditch gun Beretta Jetfire 25acp with 9 fmj.

[warriorsociologist]

j-frame

642 / Speer 135gr +P JHP for me.

[1man]

1 more for revolver as a BUG.
I carry a 640 or 649, I love my 649 more but the PD I'm want to work for has forced me into the 640 because they only approve DAO revolvers for BU carry. I don't mind a bit because all I shoot is DAO any way.
I have to get my 640 cylinder cut for moonclips, my 649 is already done.

[Landric]

Another J-frame vote here. In my ten years of police work I have always carried some kind of auto as a duty weapon. When I first started carrying a backup (shortly after I started working) I carried a SIG 230, then tried a Kahr K40, but I ended up with a J-frame about 7 or 8 years ago as a BUG and have been carrying one J-frame or another in that role ever since. Currently, a 342PD. I think lightweight J-frames make the best BUG/pocket guns.

[leadcounsel]

I've never met a revolver that failed to feed, failed to fire, failed to eject... failed to work, period. Sure they might not be the "modern" flavor and they may be slower to reload, but they work.

Meanwhile, large semi-autos tend to be reliable but my experience with small semi-autos is that they just aren't that reliable. They are fussy with ammo, fail to feed, fail to eject, etc. They are really hit and miss which isn't good enough for a BUG.

My next BUG is going to be a small frame airweight revolver in .38.